Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: colonelsanders on April 03, 2022, 02:39:39 AM

Title: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: colonelsanders on April 03, 2022, 02:39:39 AM
Does anyone actually use Unstable Injector on a regular basis? The reduction in weapon range just seems too crippling for the top speed increase, especially considering how important outranging the enemy is.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: LinWasTaken on April 03, 2022, 04:40:54 AM
I actually use it quite a bit on some modded cruisers that just need that extra kick of speed.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Nameless on April 03, 2022, 08:33:18 AM
I use it frequently.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Daynen on April 03, 2022, 09:47:37 AM
It goes on every logistics ship in my fleet.  I don't arm them so they lose nothing for that increased chance of getting away safely in the rare event that I'm forced to disengage them.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Thaago on April 03, 2022, 10:11:49 AM
I use it on every early game ship because for fighting pirates not getting swarmed/flanked lets the player fleet keep kiting them until they win. (I take it off any destroyers I might have had going into the mid game when enemy swarms are less troublesome than enemy cruisers and capitals). I use it on ships that don't need range to do their damage - Gryphons, some close range frigates. I'm considering using it on officered carriers for the same reason, but I haven't tried it yet: something like a Heron would be annoyingly fast with it, and +75% replacement from skills goes a long way towards cancelling the -25% from the hullmod.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Megas on April 03, 2022, 11:37:55 AM
Starter Apogee with Mining Blaster has it, and it is useful for it while it is stuck with starter equipment.

I may use Unstable Injector on assassin-style phase frigates too.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Thaago on April 03, 2022, 11:30:06 PM
Yup, just did some tests with carriers in a carrier centric (and piloted) playthrough: its a go to hullmod for them with skills, at least in the early-mid game where the total number of player decks is moderate. The penalty from UI is noticeable, but much less than the bonuses to replacement rate that carriers get so its still very worth it (and expanded deck crew is still a complete trap). Interceptor carriers with it can maintain constant severe losses without losing fighter rate and even heavy bomber carriers do just fine.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: ILuvLegion on May 08, 2022, 06:58:28 AM
(and expanded deck crew is still a complete trap)

This is probably an off topic question, but I was wondering if you could elaborate more on Expanded Deck crews being a trap. I love carriers and always just assumed that I needed that hullmod. Is that not true?
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Vanshilar on May 09, 2022, 08:08:55 PM
Unstable Injector can be useful for additional speed if your ship is taking Safety Overrides, because the SO range penalty is applied after the UI range penalty. So the range penalty from taking UI versus not taking it becomes very small.

Example, if you're using Cryoblaster Heavy Blaster, range of 600. If it's on a ship that gets SO, the range above 450 gets cut to 1/4 of the original value. So with SO, the new range is 450 + 150/4 = 487.5. If you now add UI, then the pre-SO range becomes 510, so the SO range becomes 450 + 60/4 = 465. So its range gets reduced from 487.5 to 465 if you take UI, or less than 5% range reduction, so then the additional speed may become more valuable.

This is only useful to certain ship builds and fleet setups where the extra speed is valuable, such as if other ships are using SO and you need the slower ship(s) to not fall too far behind. But UI can be useful in certain situations like this.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Amoebka on May 11, 2022, 03:05:20 AM
There are diminishing returns on usefullness on extra speed, and SO already gives plenty. Since SO is expensive and can't be built-in, SO ships tend to be short on OP and would rather max vents.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: TaLaR on May 11, 2022, 08:23:46 AM
On frigates - almost always, on DEs - rarely (something like player piloted Medusa), on cruisers and above - pretty much never.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Network Pesci on May 11, 2022, 09:03:51 AM
I pretty much exclusively use Unstable Injector on pursuit frigates.  I generally keep my starter Wolf for the entire campaign, but once I've got enough other craft in my fleet that the Wolf isn't my best choice for combat, I rebuild it strictly for pursuit.  Of course, nowadays "Let your second in command handle it" gets pretty good results so I hardly ever manually play pursuits, but once in a while there's a particular ship that I REALLY want to make sure does not escape, then I will manually play out the pursuit.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Excretusmaximus on May 18, 2022, 10:37:58 AM
(and expanded deck crew is still a complete trap)

This is probably an off topic question, but I was wondering if you could elaborate more on Expanded Deck crews being a trap. I love carriers and always just assumed that I needed that hullmod. Is that not true?

I was about to ask the same thing.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Grievous69 on May 18, 2022, 02:10:27 PM
My guess is that EDC costs a lot for a minor increase you'll barely notice, better to invest in other areas. I personally haven't used the hullmod a single time after the nerf, just by looking at numbers it seems super meh.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Thaago on May 18, 2022, 05:43:37 PM
(and expanded deck crew is still a complete trap)

This is probably an off topic question, but I was wondering if you could elaborate more on Expanded Deck crews being a trap. I love carriers and always just assumed that I needed that hullmod. Is that not true?

I was about to ask the same thing.

Sorry I missed these, I've been away!

My guess is that EDC costs a lot for a minor increase you'll barely notice, better to invest in other areas. I personally haven't used the hullmod a single time after the nerf, just by looking at numbers it seems super meh.

Yeah exactly this: The actual amount of the bonus is small and dwarfed by skills - for ships with a moderate amount of carriers, the bonuses from skills with officers are so large that they actually have no need to better their replacement rate! The OP can be better spent on either higher end fighters, or more/bettter missiles, or better shields, or a few defense guns to shoot off fighters/frigates... you get the idea.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Serenitis on May 19, 2022, 12:03:50 AM
I use injectors a lot. Faster is always better.
The fact its a flat boost makes it incredibly appealing to put it on ships with a lower base speed.
Changing a lumbering block of armour from 30 speed to 45 is very noticable.

The range malus is either overshadowed by the bonus from DTC/ITU (which is almost an auto-pick for everything), completely irrelevant for the role of the ship, or just straight up ignorable.
The fighter stuff is annoying, but liveable.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Excretusmaximus on May 19, 2022, 03:54:08 AM
Sorry I missed these, I've been away!

My guess is that EDC costs a lot for a minor increase you'll barely notice, better to invest in other areas. I personally haven't used the hullmod a single time after the nerf, just by looking at numbers it seems super meh.

Yeah exactly this: The actual amount of the bonus is small and dwarfed by skills - for ships with a moderate amount of carriers, the bonuses from skills with officers are so large that they actually have no need to better their replacement rate! The OP can be better spent on either higher end fighters, or more/bettter missiles, or better shields, or a few defense guns to shoot off fighters/frigates... you get the idea.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: coldiceEVO on June 18, 2022, 01:46:49 AM
I really need to try it out again. This hullmod is long forgotten for me for being way too defensive late game. It just sit between hyperaggressive SO that combines this, aux thruster, double venting and a PPT/CR-dmod for the cost of 3 hullmods, and long ranged based defensive styles as endurance offensive build.
I guess the change of impression stems from knowing the fact that range makes ai at ease and more focus fire in formation, and it is more comfort than the experience of babby sitting to command ai ship to be aggressive or evasive. Admittedly in many of these experience these ship also lacks UI, which the ai don't have the speed to break contact, get in range, or press down advantage fast enough to be decisive and sucessive.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Megas on June 18, 2022, 03:58:16 AM
There are few ships that make good use of Unstable Injector.  But for general use, the OP cost and shot range loss kills it.  For AI, shot range is better than speed.

Yeah exactly this: The actual amount of the bonus is small and dwarfed by skills - for ships with a moderate amount of carriers, the bonuses from skills with officers are so large that they actually have no need to better their replacement rate! The OP can be better spent on either higher end fighters, or more/bettter missiles, or better shields, or a few defense guns to shoot off fighters/frigates... you get the idea.
If player has carrier skills, sure, the bonus is too small compared to the skills.  But what if the player cannot get carrier skills due to points?  In my case, I have no more points left for Leadership skills.  (And if I did, Crew Training and Wolfpack Tactics are more tempting.)

I do think EDC is a bit weak and it should be restored or OP cost made cheaper, but for those who cannot get the carrier skills, it is the only option for boosting rate.  Because of no Leadership, I grudgingly try to save enough OP for EDC, even if it is weak; but I would love to see that hullmod be more on par with the skill like various other boosts like Hardened Shields for shields.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: BigBrainEnergy on June 18, 2022, 08:08:06 AM
I tried UI on the Paragon and it's actually pretty good. That 100% range bonus gets dropped to 70% after UI which still outranges other capitals at 60%. If you factor in gunnery implants it's 182.75% against 175% so it's still in the Paragon's favor. Elite helmsmanship and max CR gets you up to 56 speed, almost double the baseline and I gotta say... you REALLY notice. It's much harder for enemy capitals to escape and you become extremely difficult to pin down long enough to do serious damage.

While ballistic weapons will often outrange your hardflux options it's not by a large margine and the speed advantage is still very worth it. If you're fighting the [Redacted] it's not even an issue.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Thaago on June 18, 2022, 09:33:30 AM
There are few ships that make good use of Unstable Injector.  But for general use, the OP cost and shot range loss kills it.  For AI, shot range is better than speed.

I think this depends on the stage of the game and what the expected enemies are. Both shot range and speed are very important, and they are linked with each other in value, but early I will take speed over shotrange for frigates and destroyers. If my ships are faster than the enemy, then its much harder for them to be killed by swarming enemy forces - a cloud of pirate frigates vs my fleet with like 4 ships, range is way less important than speed! Similarly, if my ships are faster then inferior enemies can't get away when I give eliminate orders.

Midgame things change because the expected enemies get slower and the numbers become more even: the challenge isn't so much avoiding getting swarmed, its 'punching up' and having your frigates/destroyers stand off enemy destroyer/cruisers/capitals. Since they are already faster than (most of) their targets and (usually) outranged to begin with, minimizing the amount of time they are exposed without firing back becomes my most important metric. In that case, its a balance of distance lost vs speed gained, which depends on their range (and ITU counts here since the player usually has it by now) and speed. Frigates still get UI, and brawling destroyers with shorter ranged weaponry (Medusa, Shrikes, mortar/railgun hammerhead for example) could go either ITU or UI, while longer ranged destroyers get ITU.

I have a hard time justifying UI on cruisers or capitals because the amount of speed they gain is the lowest, but the amount of range they lose is the highest (as it multiplies by DTC/ITU as well as base).

For lategame I've swapped my destroyers to ITU: they are mainly fighting ships much more powerful than them (6+ skill capitals, alpha core brilliants/radiants, etc) and might not even be officered depending on if I'm going for a support doctrine or best of the best build, so they can't afford to be engaging close in (unless the whole fleet strategy is swarming).

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If player has carrier skills, sure, the bonus is too small compared to the skills.  But what if the player cannot get carrier skills due to points?  In my case, I have no more points left for Leadership skills.  (And if I did, Crew Training and Wolfpack Tactics are more tempting.)

I do think EDC is a bit weak and it should be restored or OP cost made cheaper, but for those who cannot get the carrier skills, it is the only option for boosting rate.  Because of no Leadership, I grudgingly try to save enough OP for EDC, even if it is weak; but I would love to see that hullmod be more on par with the skill like various other boosts like Hardened Shields for shields.

Anyone can get the carrier skills. They are tier 0 with no prerequisites. If you chose not to do so it means you prioritize the other skill picks above a very large increase in carrier effectiveness. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's the choice.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: Megas on June 18, 2022, 03:34:06 PM
Anyone can get the carrier skills. They are tier 0 with no prerequisites. If you chose not to do so it means you prioritize the other skill picks above a very large increase in carrier effectiveness. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's the choice.
I know carrier skills are low tier and have no prerequisites.  My question or point was if EDC is worth it if player wants to use carriers but cannot take Carrier Group because all skill points are tied up elsewhere.  If carriers need a rate boost to be viable (later in the game), but EDC is bad enough that is not worth it even to otherwise unskilled carriers, then carriers requiring a skill to be good enough (later in the game) is kind of lame.  I am disappointed with EDC overall, but if I do not have Carrier Group, it feels like I may need EDC anyway just so rate does not crash to 30% as fast.
Title: Re: Unstable Injector hullmod
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 18, 2022, 04:30:38 PM
I've found that UI on frigates in late game is kinda meh. Frigates biggest problem in late game is not dying, and having to go into such close range to deal damage is frequently suicidal against bigger ships, particularly since it can force you into range bands of very short range high DPS weapons like MGs. I prefer capacitors tbh.