70 base speed """""low-tech""""" capitals with a better plasma burn? 10k armor? The powercreep is real, high-tech forever worst tech.
Orion drive sounds like something pathers would like to temper with.
What is the max crew of Invictus? Even with a skeleton crew of 4000, this would be useful as a colony ship to transport a huge population at once. If the difference between maximum crew and skeleton crew of Invictus is significantly more than Onslaught or Legion, then it can be even useful as a troop transport. I already use Onslaught and Legion at times as raider ships because they can haul many marines with their excess personnel capacity. More convenient than hauling a bunch of Starliners and Nebulas.
Not going to lie, already looking forward to the mods that are going to add pather/pirate variants of these crazy behemoths.
For the battlecruiser, it only has 800 armor and a 1.2 shield! Its flux stats are probably good, but this thing is looking like an extreme glass cannon for a capital. Its like a big Eradicator... that is much easier to kill!
(Depending on how a few things shake out, you might not have to.)I wish for more high-tech or midline pirate ships.
If there are as many frigates as there are capital ships, that seems pretty balanced, no?Adding 3 new capital ships in a single update looks a bit like giving up on preventing capital spam.
(I know you're joking, but I'm not actually sure what you mean. Just "counts of ships of a given type, that exist", right? Not "fleet compositions"?)
Can't wait to see how the other factions became more unique (I'd guess all those missiles teased before play a role hmm).This blog post mentions factions having exclusive access to high-powered weapons, guess League is going to be the missile spam faction. They are getting a missile capital and a midline (?) missile destroyer.
Adding 3 new capital ships in a single update looks a bit like giving up on preventing capital spam.
Retribution looks like it can support triple gauss with its flux stats, and SIX harpoon pods on top of that. While being faster than Odyssey.
Maaaan I'm so happy we're getting new capitals to make everything feel cool in their own way. That said, a ship with 4 built in hullmods dayuum, you'll need 5 minutes just to understand how the ship even works. Everything that's been shown so far I'm really content with, honestly have zero criticism except pls don't have us wait too long for part 2 :'(
Can't wait to see how the other factions became more unique (I'd guess all those missiles teased before play a role hmm).
Interesting. I'd always liked the feel of the Sector as a place where people are mostly 'stuck with what they've got', and so while I'm a fan of faction mods, the way they often come with whole fleets worth of custom ships quite swiftly makes the game feel really bloated for me; this 'compromise' of emphasizing different capitals with a pool of 'what you got' around it plus specific weapon picks seems like a neat direction. Tweaking faction files towards this standard may be more work for me to tailor the game to my liking but it's a nifty sort of standard idea to work around.
... and a midline (?) missile destroyer.
Did David trick me? He posted an emoji in a large missile destroyer speculation thread once. My heart is shattered, how could he do it. :'(
With a new battle cruiser, any chance you could review the accessibility of the odyssey? It’s always been a hard to acquire ship, being the only capital ship that can be hard to acquire for a player for who credits and lost ships aren’t a concern.
Hm... Clearly the answer is synergy-type weapons? You don't need a separate hull for a large missile destroyer if you can just put your large missiles on a Sunder!Did David trick me? He posted an emoji in a large missile destroyer speculation thread once. My heart is shattered, how could he do it. :'(
Ahhhh - there's something behind that, indeed, but your speculation has taken you down the wrong path :)
For the battlecruiser, it only has 800 armor and a 1.2 shield! Its flux stats are probably good, but this thing is looking like an extreme glass cannon for a capital. Its like a big Eradicator... that is much easier to kill!It also has that new built-in Distributed Fire Control that prevents DTC/ITU. It will trade shot range for weapon durability, and it will have likely have less range than a heavy energy weapon with ITU. Basically, a high-tech ship in low-tech clothing.
It also has that new built-in Distributed Fire Control that prevents DTC/ITU. It will trade shot range for weapon durability, and it will have likely have less range than a heavy energy weapon with ITU. Basically, a high-tech ship in low-tech clothing.
A heavy energy weapon (plasma, autopulse) with capital-grade ITU and gunnery implants is 1225 range.Gauss is an obvious exception, but it is also the most inefficient ballistic weapon, and it shoots slowly (not good against nimble hordes).
A mauler/HVD with just gunnery and ballistic mastery is 1250 range.
A gauss with gunnery and ballistic mastery is 1500 range.
A normal small/medium ballistic with a rangefinder and both skills is 1125. Not exactly "short range" either, it's only 100 range less than the high-tech.
Oh I actually forgot to ask something important, can we know the DP costs for these capitals? They both seem quite scary but with such glaring weaknesses I doubt they're expensive. Invictus probably doesn't cost more than a Paragon and Retribution could be anywhere between 35-45 for all I know, there's still a few unknown factors.
Carrier-Centric: Astral, Heron, Drover, Scintilla*, Gemini*Speaking of the Gemini, I believe Alex has some potential changes (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23823.msg354921#msg354921) for it in the pipeline. Not particularly specific, just "remove civgrade" and "make it better for combat", but there's the potential for it to become interesting.
*Gemini doesn't really count given it only has 1 bay and the same system as Drover along with worse everything else (because it's civilian, which is fine)
3. 4000 skeleton crew, while very thematic, makes this ship seem like it will be hellish to maintain. More importantly, it seems like it will be essentially be unrecoverable without mothballing it and dragging it to a market (probably several), simply to restore its crew. Simply, it seems like its place in a player fleet will be more burdensome than productive, except perhaps as a glorified combat freighter/transport. Which would be a shame given it seems like it has a really cool design.Yeah 4k sounds a bit screwy. At minimum it'll get Efficiency Overhaul installed straight off the bat, which brings crew requirement down to "only" 3200. Also don't get it disabled/destroyed in combat or you'll have to empty the Chicomoztoc open and black markets for replacement crew.
I really like the hegemony auxiliary ships and wished there were more for hegemony lol like the mule or venture or even the tankers like dram and nebula lol.
- on another note I wonder if Sindrian Diktat will get unique auxiliary ships too, such as bringing back the old Gemini (without civilian class hull) or drover in Diktat colors but i guess this update is focused on capitals :)
I wasn’t expecting the Retribution at all so color me pleasantly surprised. “Orkish” (Warhammer 40k) as has been previously described, was exactly my thought. More dakka and painted red. I kid you not, an SO Pather variant needs to exist and it needs to have potentially disastrous effects on the Orion Device mid-battle.
As for the Invictus, I was very curious how the LiDAR and Armor mechanics were going to work (along with DP cost) so I’m glad you clarified. At 60 DP, I’m curious if the Invictus is supposed to challenge a Paragon outright (or an Onslaught for that matter) or if it’s more akin to a siege weapon that ultimately doesn’t want to be be out front trading fire with other capitals. Phase Ships will be the bane of its existence.
Edit: the OCD in me is asking why both large missiles are on the same side versus a more aesthetically pleasing symmetrical design. Just saying…
First time on the forums in nearly five and a half years and the first post I see is my greenskins finally getting the love they so richly deserve.
I'll say, I really like the way this update is looking; not only the different ship makes everything more unique, but it also makes it fun to hunt for specific ship loadouts/variants for your own fleet.
That said, if I were to request something, I would ask for every faction to have their own variant of the more "Commonplace" ships, and more importantly, for them to be different beyond just the color scheme. The Buffalo (normal, not Mk.II) comes to mind; IIRC, everyone (but the Perseans) has their own, but only the Hegemony one has different stats, and the Pirate variant which had Shielded Holds. All others are just paintjobs. I'd be great if they all had slightly different stats, or even quirks of their own, which reflected what that faction's about (Just like the shielded pirate variant).
Loving it! Didn't read closely and thought the midline that was teased a bit ago was a cruiser but checked and it's a capital. Loved the Invictus since I first saw its sprite and the Retribution is hilarious- clever idea to make use of the good 'ol nuclear pulse drive. Extremely fitting for LC and a low-tech battlecruiser, indeed.
One concerning thing I noticed though- does Invictus really have 40,000 hull? That seems a little.. extreme. Even with its armor being less effective, that means it nominally has around 45,000 health to chew through which might be kind of reasonable with the perspective of shields being filled and dissipating over a battle but I'm really not sure it'd be fun to sit and shoot it for that long. The other concerning thing about this is hullmods that boost hull HP. If you stack Reinforced Bulkheads on that then it's +40%, and then I can't remember what but there's one that's +20% as well if I recall right. So you can get it to a hefty 64,000 hull + 10,000 armor(at 10% DR effectiveness, admittedly) but that's still ~69,000 health even if you break the armor optimally. Maybe I'm underestimating the damage traded in the average battle but that seems awfully high.
For part 2, I hope we get more carrier option(s),
...
But I digress- this isn't a suggestions page. Part 2 and the hopes I have regarding all the new energy munitions(new LPCs?) got me thinking and if I can make my voice heard then I'd like to try.
No matter what, I look forward to what's in store :D
Speaking of the Gemini, I believe Alex has some potential changes (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=23823.msg354921#msg354921) for it in the pipeline. Not particularly specific, just "remove civgrade" and "make it better for combat", but there's the potential for it to become interesting.
Have to say I didnt expect to see something as insanely "low tech" as an orion drive in Starsector but now that it's here I gotta say you made it really cool (and made it feel like it makes sense, to boot) - awesome work
1. Does Heavy Armor still only increase the Invictus's armor by 500? My only issue with the Ablative armor hullmod is that it seems like it will play very poorly with flat armor increases and runs counter to how armor has worked for every other ship. I'm a little hesitant to bring up mod content, but Dark.Revenant's Interstellar Imperium accomplishes something similar to ablative armor (although nowhere near the same degree) by having a reasonable base armor and applying a modifyMult (and then of course reducing the armor strength for damage reduction proportionally). Food for thought if it isn't already the case I guess.
2. 10 large ballistic weapons with 600 base flux seems... unfortunate. I guess it is unshielded, but when the system is activated triple fire rate means 12 larges worth of flux generation (unless like Accelerated Ammo Feeder it comes with a flux reduction? One can hope, but I don't see it in the status messages). I get the idea that it's supposed to be relatively benign except for dangerous bursts of activity, but it seems a bit crippled here, especially since its low OP makes Flux Distributor or even Resistant Flux Conduits probably unattractive. 18 second vent time at max flux is twice as much as any other ship currently in the game, which gives me the impression that in long or hard fights this ship will at some point just ramp up its flux and refuse to vent, firing its weapons only piecemeal until it's worn down and destroyed. Couple that with a somewhat egregious 40000 hull (which I'm sure will also get Blast Doors and Reinforced Bulkheads)... I'd love to be told I'm wrong. It's just kind of weird given it comes alongside the Retribution with its possibly ridiculous 900 base flux (I guess it seems fragile enough to deserve it?).
(On the other hand, 12 ballistic larges at Paragon range :o could be I'm doomsaying too early.)
3. 4000 skeleton crew, while very thematic, makes this ship seem like it will be hellish to maintain. More importantly, it seems like it will be essentially be unrecoverable without mothballing it and dragging it to a market (probably several), simply to restore its crew. Simply, it seems like its place in a player fleet will be more burdensome than productive, except perhaps as a glorified combat freighter/transport. Which would be a shame given it seems like it has a really cool design.Yeah 4k sounds a bit screwy. At minimum it'll get Efficiency Overhaul installed straight off the bat, which brings crew requirement down to "only" 3200. Also don't get it disabled/destroyed in combat or you'll have to empty the Chicomoztoc open and black markets for replacement crew.
>10k armor
"ALEX WHAT THE ***"
>reads next paragraph
"oh phew"
I was looking closer at the example detachment for the Luddic church, and I didn’t recognize the last fighter (the one with six fighters in the wing). Is it new, or am I just forgetting one? If it is new, can you tell us anything about it Alex?
The Buffalo (normal, not Mk.II) comes to mind; IIRC, everyone (but the Perseans) has their own, but only the Hegemony one has different stats, and the Pirate variant which had Shielded Holds. All others are just paintjobs. I'd be great if they all had slightly different stats, or even quirks of their own, which reflected what that faction's about (Just like the shielded pirate variant).
it's just an engine built onto a modular frame for attaching cargo containers. Same as the Atlas, just a lot smaller, but the Atlas is low tech.
On that note, I don't think the LC should even be using the Buffalo, on account of it's tagged as a high tech hull. Granted, that designation doesn't really make sense; it's just an engine built onto a modular frame for attaching cargo containers. Same as the Atlas, just a lot smaller, but the Atlas is low tech.
Looking at the battlecruiser, it doesn't really seem like a lowtech battlecruiser to me tbh.
Like Yeah, it clearly has a focus on speed but currently it feels like it's an oddy that trades the fighter bays for some more missiles and front facing larges but otherwise is like really really really similar in stats to the oddy as far as I tell from the screenshots in the post
Obviously, you're still finalizing stats and stuff so it can and prob will change between now and whenever you release it but things to maybe look at:
-800 armor vs oddy's 1000 (Doesnt really make sense at least to me since it's lowtech, it should have matching or even slightly better armor)
-900(?) Flux diss to oddy's 1000 (50% more diss over the onslaught seems like a bit overkill, 750 or 800 I think would be more in line while also allowing you to maybe give it better armor or shield speaking of shield
-Shields: While having a shield for it is nice and all, it feels like it's gonna be more of a liability with its current stats. Maybe it might be more interesting to give it a damper field right click instead? Would feel like a logical conclusion to the vanguard line if we ever get a damper field destroyer/cruiser.
-Speed: It seems to have a similar if not barely higher speed over the oddy? (70 vs 75? 73?) Feels weird to have something be on par with the tech that focuses on speed.
Sorry if it seems like backseating. I like it's design tho
Aye, was referring to that being coupled with +200% fire rate ;)(On the other hand, 12 ballistic larges at Paragon range :o could be I'm doomsaying too early.)
It's only 4 ballistics at +100% range - just the hardpoints.
but mainly I wanted the ship to feel outdated, and “its targeting systems are so good they’re better than the more modern stuff” doesn’t fit.
PL: Has access to the widest variety of ships and weaponsI would say right now "variety" is more of a Diktat theme. Their main gimmick as a faction is having access to literally all weapons in the game. I don't think any other human faction does that.
Adding 3 new capital ships in a single update looks a bit like giving up on preventing capital spam.
The two seem completely unrelated, no? One is how many ships of a given type exist, and the other is how many ships of a given type are in a specific fleet.
Also, what exactly does Distributed Fire Control do? I got from the blogpost that it is basically a super buffed Armored Weapon Mounts that prevents range boosting hullmods, but does it do anything else?
Lidar Array when not in active use still boosts weapon range by 25%?
I have one question: How come the Lidar Array is better than Advanced Targeting Core? ???
Especially since from the blog:Quotebut mainly I wanted the ship to feel outdated, and “its targeting systems are so good they’re better than the more modern stuff” doesn’t fit.
By the idea, Lidar Array should be worse, since it is obsolete, but it isn't. It is actually better than Advanced Targeting Core.
...
With this, Lidar Array is much better than Paragon's Advanced Targeting Core, since ATC gives only range bonus and that's it.
I don't think the preview for the Orion Device is working.
I'm actually surprised there wasn't a new capital with the damper field given that system suits the LC's style. (Side note, have you considered making the Mora into a damper field right click ship?)
The Persean League is getting lots of changes? Interesting, I'd have put the Dictate down as who needed love next after the LC with changes focused on making them less of a copy of the PL that drops the carriers. The way I add flavor to the SD in my games is to make them use phase ships, since otherwise it's only TT that does in serious numbers.
Before this blog, I'd have said of the major factions that Tri-Tach, Hegemony, and Persean League have the most distinctive identities.
Speaking of Lidar Array I got a bit confused on weapon ranges. So the system provides +25% weapon range when it's not active. And then there's the Distributed fire control hullmod which prevents the installation of ITU and DTC, does that also provide 25% range increase alongside tougher weapons? It's been mentioned Retribution will have to get fairly close to use its weapons but I kinda just assumed it has some small bonus built in. If it's seriously going to be a capital with base range weapons then I guess it deserves all that stats lol.
To be fair to the point, I think myself and others would like more "elite" frigates and destroyers. The options are much better than they used to be, but I'll admit i raised an eyebrow when i found out the Ludd's were getting 2 more capitals.
That said, they're amazing, and fit super well. But I do see the point that faction diversity doesn't just need to be tied up in super capital ships. The idea that there's some ludd swarmer destroyer that lets them mount 3 perdition wings or a frigate that's nothing but engines and forward facing missile slots would also do a lot to push their "old tech in massive amounts" doctrine (probably not perfect examples but you get the idea).
My 2 cents about ship colors/skins:
Those that are literally the same thing but with different paint on it are just needless clutter, I get that they exist for flavour. But you go into combat, see a ship you already recognize but this one looks different, yet it does the same exact thing as a normal one. To me that seems like a placeholder for future content (like we're getting now). Also worth noting is that I don't mind factions sharing ships/weapons as long as they don't overlap too much which is right now being fixed.
And then we have skins that are actually different from the original design. Be it better stats, unique hullmod, different mounts, and so on. These are cool but I still don't want too much of that. Especially pirate variants that are a straight up worse version of base ship. Good examples being Falcon(P), Eradicator(P) and Shrike(P). So what I'm saying is that seeing red paint on a ship, in this case, might mean the ship is, A: literally the same, B: worse version than base or C: something completely different. Of course once you know what each ship does, all of this becomes irrelevant.
Anyways glad we're getting brand new stuff instead of more skins.
I would like to see skins for all the ships, it just adds so much uniqueness and flavor. The differences should be a bit more consistent thats true, but hey, there is not sooo much ships so its not hard to know all of them.
DFC gives no bonuses to range, so the Retribution is at base weapon range (plus skills).OOF, that's rough. Now I understand why it has all those mounts, especially missile ones. That's certainly going to be a unique ship to pilot but can AI manage such a thing? It's a capital focused on mobility that's going to be outranged by almost everything, I'm just worried it will derp out in combat a lot.
It probably won't be the best ship under AI control - or, at least, the safest. It *is* able to use Orion Device pretty well to close in etc. That's just the way it goes, though; usually the things that make a good/interesting player ship also make it harder for the AI to use to its full potential.Oh yeah naturally, I don't expect AI to be so advanced and scary. I'm just hoping it won't do the "try to go in - receive damage along the way - backpedal - go in again" loop due to low range. If it seriously succeeds at getting into firing range without the need of a reckless officer, then I'll be a happy player.
Hmm, weird - seems to be working for me. Hopefully you can see it on twitter, anyway.
Especially pirate variants that are a straight up worse version of base ship. Good examples being Falcon(P)-
1 vs 1 (which, very limited usefulness) it absolutely mauls an Onslaught-
Oh my bad, I meant that Falcon(P) and ships after it were good examples, while simple worse stats were a bad example. So good example as being well implemented, not a "good" example of something bad for me. Pirate Falcons are monsters that's well known.Especially pirate variants that are a straight up worse version of base ship. Good examples being Falcon(P)-Falcon(P) stands out as being remarkably good actually. Like fighting them helmed by the AI I think they land successfully as weaker. But I feel stronger piloting the (P) version than I do the regular Falcon.
Oh my bad, I meant that Falcon(P) and ships after it were good examples, while simple worse stats were a bad example.So, the Pirate Wolf, Pirate Afflictor, and Pirate Shade, right?
Outright weaker variants of ships are fine to me for P and LP ships. These add more variety to those factions and are good enemies during the early game for the player to push around. The only real downside to them is it's not always clear to the player that one is an objectively worse ship. Especially when sometimes those variants are just recolours (P Enforcer) or sidegrades (P Shriek).Yea this was my whole point basically. If every single pirate variant functioned the same, then ok, as it stands right now, you have to carefully read everything.
Yeah, got it on Twitter. However this is all I see on the blog:
I think a Diktat skin for the Prometheus(and tankers in general) in particular makes sense, I can see them making a big deal of their presumably extremely nationalized fuel industry.
What about some completely new combat tanker for Diktat then? Could be something midline and more oriented for compact exploration fleets or combat oriented fleets where every ship in a fleet is supposed to reasonably contribute in combat. Because current low techie tankers could only fend off very low level threats, like a Kite or two. It could also be optimised for orbital bombardments - that's a Diktat after all, that is not exactly the nicest faction in the sector. And it simply a fashionable way to assert the market dominance by dropping some antimatter on your arising competitor colony.I think a Diktat skin for the Prometheus(and tankers in general) in particular makes sense, I can see them making a big deal of their presumably extremely nationalized fuel industry.
This might not happen, but: I like the way you think :)
What about some completely new combat tanker for Diktat then? Could be something midline and more oriented for compact exploration fleets or combat oriented fleets where every ship in a fleet is supposed to reasonably contribute in combat. Because current low techie tankers could only fend off very low level threats, like a Kite or two. It could also be optimised for orbital bombardments - that's a Diktat after all, that is not exactly the nicest faction in the sector. And it simply a fashionable way to assert the market dominance by dropping some antimatter on your arising competitor colony.That's exactly what I was thinking. There's no combat tanker ships in the game, so one or two could really fit a state that relies on fuel (and crabs) to prop up its dictatorship. There are very few tankers in the game as it is, certainly compared to the variety we have of freighters and combat freighters (hound, cerberus, wayfarerer, shepherd, mule, gemini, and venture).
I'd have put the Dictate down as who needed love [...] with changes focused on making them less of a copy of the PL
Outright weaker variants of ships are fine to me for P and LP ships. These add more variety to those factions and are good enemies during the early game for the player to push around. The only real downside to them is it's not always clear to the player that one is an objectively worse ship. Especially when sometimes those variants are just recolours (P Enforcer) or sidegrades (P Shriek).Yea this was my whole point basically. If every single pirate variant functioned the same, then ok, as it stands right now, you have to carefully read everything.
Prometheus MkII crying in the corner.Does that count as a combat tanker if it has the same capacity as a Phaeton?
I want to say this is funny because, if I remember correctly, the Diktat predates the PL, at least in development, by quite a while. I remember thinking, when PL and LC were first implemented, it felt like the Diktat's big brother had moved in and claimed the "northwest" third of the Core and was staring down the Hegemony, daring them to bully Philip again.That's probably because I started playing the game after that point. As the League has a greater presence in the sector and is mostly the same as the Dictate but with more, it felt like the Dictate was the clone. It looks like they got a few changes at some point compared to the last time I looked at the files, losing their 3/3 split of warships and carriers for the default 4/2 split that the Hegemony, Luddic Church, and Independents use. So they have lost a bit of that carrier focus identity. They did always feel like the factions exemplified by the hammerhead/sunder battle line backed up by carriers. Since so many of their fleets were made up of that extremely solid makeup when when I first started. Individual ships are fast and highly specialized, but work well together in fleet settings. While the Dictate was all about top heavy fleets of cruisers and capitals, dropping the carriers entirely. Admittedly though, I rarely fought Dictate fleets so I don't have much of a feel for them.
Probably because, up to that point, the Diktat had been the only faction really using the Conquest (which, hey, to Alex's point about capitals conveying faction identity).
Hah! A couple of things here: first off, I don't think we can just brush off the Lidar Array being active - and thus having limited uptime - and also preventing any turreted weapons from firing, only applying its bonus to hardpoints.
Second, as mentioned in the blog post: many of these bonuses (specifically, rate of fire, reduced recoil, projectile speed) are not intrinsic properties of Lidar Array, but specific design features of the Invictus, which was built to take advantage of the window of opportunity Lidar Array opens up.
Also, fwiw, I'm fairly sure the Invictus would be a more effective ship if it had ATC and some other kind of system instead of Lidar Array.
But i just can't understand, lore wise, how could outdated ship outrange the pinnacle of ship designs (Paragon).The Paragon is an energy weapon boat, and that's always meant it's range isn't going to be incredible. The ATC only brings energy weapons up enough to compete with ballistics, not surpass them. Try doing the math on Atlas IIs armed with Gauss in comparison, say.
I know that Lidar Array is limited ability, and has a cooldown, but it also provides other good bonuses that makes the cooldown negligible, like triple the fire rate, among other things.
Now, Invictus is supposed to be outdated, compared to the other low-tech, midline and especially high-tech ships, where Paragon is the pinnacle of the Domain's battleship designs. But i just can't understand, lore wise, how could outdated ship outrange the pinnacle of ship designs (Paragon).
Now, Invictus is supposed to be outdated, compared to the other low-tech, midline and especially high-tech ships, where Paragon is the pinnacle of the Domain's battleship designs. But i just can't understand, lore wise, how could outdated ship outrange the pinnacle of ship designs (Paragon).The Invictus is a means of getting big guns on target and is built around supporting those big guns. Everything else about it is crude and gets around that crudeness by being big. The Paragon doesn't have its theoretical maximum reach but doesn't need it as badly for endurance and will waste fewer shots at that distance.
Can you install Makeshift Shield Generator on an Invictus and then install a Shield Shunt to get 15% armor bonus? That is +1,500 armor for Invictus, plus another 1000 from Armored Weapon Mounts. 12,500 armor total, not sure if it comes out to be OP efficient though.
The Paragon is an energy weapon boat, and that's always meant it's range isn't going to be incredible. The ATC only brings energy weapons up enough to compete with ballistics, not surpass them. Try doing the math on Atlas IIs armed with Gauss in comparison, say.
That Fortress Shield is an outright hard counter to Lidar Array is much more relevant to asking which of them is more advanced than the other, I'd say.
If LIDAR is so godly (nevermind that it gets beat by the ATC ship), why does no other ship use it? Because it takes a dreadnought-sized hull to fit it - just look how far apart the laser turrets are!
That giant space requirement is what makes Invictus, and thus LIDAR, obsolete. It makes Invictus guzzle fuel, take literal tons of crew, and prevents it from mounting a shield generator. Even Atlas Mk.2 has a shield.
Because range isn't the sole determinant of the quality of ship design - if that were the case, then most low tech ships at equivalent size classes would be simply "better" than most high tech ships, full stop. It's an extremely facile avenue for analysis.
I'm not surprised that in real testing the Paragon eats the Invictus alive, because Lidar Array takes up the active system slot, while the Paragon is equipped with both ATC and Fortress Shield. The Paragon could simply activate Fortress Shield to absorb the Lidar Array output while it's active, then once Lidar has been depleted the Paragon will easily pummel the Invictus from way beyond the Invictus's pitiful +25% passive range. In fact, beam Paragons still outrange the Invictus even with Lidar active for any weapon other than Gauss, and I highly doubt the Invictus has the flux to sustain 4x Gauss with 3x Lidar acceleration for any decent length of time (which, again, would just be easily absorbed by Fortress Shield anyway). It's quite likely that the Invictus will have trouble managing 4x Gauss even before Lidar - the posted build has less than 50% of the dissipation required for 4x Gauss alone, before even considering the other large mounts.
Personally I'm waiting to see what the flux and system uptime situation (max charges, charge replenishment, duration/cooldown, etc.) turns out to be for Invictus before passing judgement, since that's going to have a huge impact on what kind of damage output the Invictus is actually capable of sustaining across the entire battle. The Invictus obviously has considerable burst potential, but might require tons of support to keep it covered if it needs to constantly vent. Right now the Invictus reminds me of an overgrown Atlas Mk.II: amazing on paper, but tactically problematic during actual deployment. It's hard to measure how DP-efficient the Invictus would be without actually seeing how much sustained DPS it's capable of and how much fleet support it requires.
Ah, I see you're using the ol' bait tactic. Unfortunately for that to work there has to be some stronger, more believable arguments. Then again someone just might fall for "Paragon is now obsolete because of Invictus" and start to argue, but that's a waste of posts in this otherwise interesting blog post thread. Before anyone attacks me for being negative, the DEVELOPER himself proved this whole essay above wrong.
I too love pretending soft flux shield-inefficient beams are comparable to 700 hit strength kinetics.
Not to mention capital ships always have officers, and both ballistic mastery and gunnery implants benefit gauss cannon more than even 1000 range beams.
I did not say that Paragon is obsolete after Invictus arrives. What i'm saying, that Invictus'es greater range does not make sense lore wise, since Invictus is supposed to be outdated, with inferior technological advancements. Perhaps even obsolete ones, compared to what is currently available in the Sector. Currently, Paragon is top-of-the-line, regarding technological advancements and is the only ship in game, that has the ATC, that provides +100% range to energy and ballistic weapons.
Lore wise, it doesn't make sense, that Luddic Church now gets a capital, that equals to the range bonus of ATC, while also providing additional bonuses, that ATC is not capable of, cooldown or not.
Is adding content the fun part of game development? All the framework is built and now you get to fill it with stuff? I'm not a developer but I'd imagine this stage of game development is really fun.
I wish carriers were listed more clearly on the fleet info - it's too hard to tell which fighter wing goes with which ship.
The lack of shields seems like a major downside for fighting stations. Even such a large amount of armor, won't really compare to shields against star fortresses with HIL/Tac Lance/hellbore etc. It might be possible that the overwhelming damage output could be enough to simply knock the station out before it can do too much damage, but that just seems unlikely to me.
We can't forget Invictus gets 100 OP refund from Heavy Ballistic Integration.Ahh, assuming one would use every ballistic slot. However, since the AI seems to take into account the Lidar Array range of the main weapon battery when deciding the range it will stick to, along with the somewhat gimped range from only a +25% range buff instead of Cap-grade ITU 60% buff, it seems that those non-battery weapons will not be firing nearly as often. Probably for the best though, as its flux dissipation wouldn't be able to handle the main battery's volleys along with, hell, even a bunch of Hellbores or Devastators.
Altair Exotech licensed the Odyssey class to several frontier development corporations, including Eridani-Utopia, to provide admirably armed mobile survey headquarters and operation platforms
Odyssey seems more like an indie capital to me. It has exploration-related logistic hullmods and trades raw combat power for better campaign stats.
Diktat will probably become the exclusive owners of Conquest.When Alex announced the Pegasus he specifically said that it would lead larger League fleets, so either they would go mostly cruiser school with a Battleship for their large fleets (which doesn't make that much sense) or have another new cap...
maybe, but Indies are the only (human) faction that doesn't have a cap, and that's probably for a reason
Indies have Conquest blueprints, they just rarely use it because they prefer cruiser spam.It makes it the easiest capital to steal the blueprints for because New Maxios has the worst defenses of any industry world (low defense, no patrols).
Thanks for the blogpost Alex. I love the nod to the Orion project! Uniquifying the faction is a worthwhile goal, looking forward to it. Will it only apply to combat, or are also changes outside combat planned? The dialogs with the various generic commanders and fleets of each faction seem like a relatively easy way to show more of each faction's flavor, for example. Some variation in fleet behavior might also be interesting, like the TTs sending out tech mining fleets, or the church missionaries to other faction's planets, or the league having occasional in-fighting.
We can't forget Invictus gets 100 OP refund from Heavy Ballistic Integration.
The 1 nitpick I have is Invictus basically being a bunch of rule exceptions stacked on each other: Distributed fire control, LIDAR, Ablative armor, Vast hangar beyond the shield/canister flak switch.
Fine enough if that's what's needed to make the concept work, just seems like a minor usability problem similar to Ballistic rangefinder's arcane rules.
Also wanted to mention the Orion drive on the Retribution, just a "go forward" system but it was worth every second of development time.
Looks really cool.
I'm mostly curious about the problem Invictus could have:
it needs support for blocking/against flankers, but it's also a clumsy ship with forward mounts and burst firing windows in which it really, REALLY doesn't want allies to get in the way.
Will have to wait and see how that works out.
I think the improvements to ship AI - that are already in the current release, as far as ships trying harder not to get in your way - will help here. I'm sure it'll happen *some*, but just out of curiosity, I did a quick simulator test. An Invictor plus 8 or so frigates, with a "defend" order on it, vs a bunch of cruisers and other support ships. Just in this one test, it didn't get its firing lanes blocked even once.Forget the actual blog post, this right here is huge news.
Diktat will probably become the exclusive owners of Conquest.
don't make another midline cap to make the Diktat more Unique, just give them the OdysseyCurrently in game we have one midline capital, compared to two for lowtech, three for hightech, and then one pather and one pirate (i consider those two different enough from the "standard" tech trees to be considered separately)
...
or alternatively make them go really hard on cruiser school
This is quite random for this blog post but it could kind of tie in somewhere. Reminded myself in another discussion that large energy slots only have 2 non beam options. And ships not meant for hit and run tactics pretty much just mainly need Plasma Cannon. Which is fine and all, great weapon either way, but having so few options after a plethora of ones in medium mounts feels awkward. I also thought large missiles were lacking some more interesting options and we know we're getting a bunch of them in the next patch, so that's taken care of. I just wish there was another thing that isn't a beam (I don't hate them or anything, but there's only so many things you can do with a beam loadout).I rather have one good weapon than several that are mediocre. It is pretty bad when the best assault weapon sometimes is a PD weapon, Heavy Burst Laser for medium energy mounts.
Might be interesting to make Mjolnir a hybrid weapon though.Interesting as it might, it might offer too much range on the high-tech ships that can use it. Now, if it has a special rule that lost 100 or 200 base range if mounted in an energy slot, then it could be an option.
Eh fair enough, but if we get factions that use high tech ships and then exclusive weapons, it's gonna be boring seeing capitals with Heavy Blasters and Autopulses (if they even get that blueprints).If we need extra weapons to make factions stand out, then yes, makes sense. It may not be as critical for weapons. We have several "poor" factions that use stuff acquired from the Open Market.
Reminded myself in another discussion that large energy slots only have 2 non beam options.To be fair L energy also only has 2 beam options :)
Might be interesting to make Mjolnir a hybrid weapon though.While hit strength and efficiency are below plasma, at a glance 900 range+EMP would probably make it too good on most things with L energy slots.
Paladin is mostly PD, didn't get around to give it a proper try since it was changed so might be missing that it's decent against ships now.Paladin is not that good against ships. It underperforms compared to other large energy weapons at anti-ship. Paladin is an anti-missile and maybe anti-fighter weapon. Best to treat it like a dual flak with much more range that fits in a large energy slot.
It would be nice if more of the XIV ships were distinct from standard hulls aside from more flux and armor like Legion XIV, if more ships become Hegemony exclusive.
While hit strength and efficiency are below plasma, at a glance 900 range+EMP would probably make it too good on most things with L energy slots.
Just a guess ofc.
I don't really know why long range is such a taboo for high tech. Conquest is fast as hell and allowed to kite with 2220 range gauss cannons, why is 1575 range Odyssey unacceptable then? Similarly, Falcons are about as fast as high tech stuff, yet they can use 1650 range kinetics.Mjolnir as synergy may be okay if it counts as Ballistic for buffs. (So, no -10% flux from elite Energy Mastery.) Still kind of leery of base 900 range hard flux on high-tech ships. I would certainly kite further away with such high-tech ships. Omega's improved Rift Cascading Emitter is quite powerful, not at max range, but it still explodes quite a bit a short distance before max. I would love to kite with or otherwise abuse that weapon but player probably gets only one in the entire game.
EMP is what would make it stand out a little from plasma/autopulse. High tech already has easy access to ion damage, so I don't think it would break things either.
I don't really know why long range is such a taboo for high tech. Conquest is fast as hell and allowed to kite with 2220 range gauss cannons, why is 1575 range Odyssey unacceptable then? Similarly, Falcons are about as fast as high tech stuff, yet they can use 1650 range kinetics.I wrote ships with L energy mounts, not high tech.
Mjolnir as synergy may be okay if it counts as Ballistic for buffs. (So, no -10% flux from elite Energy Mastery.) Still kind of leery of 900 range on high-tech ships. I would certainly kite further away with such high-tech ships.Elite ballistic mastery would be obviously, no contest better for Mjollnir than elite energy IMO.
I don't really know why long range is such a taboo for high tech. Conquest is fast as hell and allowed to kite with 2220 range gauss cannons, why is 1575 range Odyssey unacceptable then? Similarly, Falcons are about as fast as high tech stuff, yet they can use 1650 range kinetics.
Yes, Conquest needs its long-range firepower to not be totally eclipsed by Onslaught.I don't really know why long range is such a taboo for high tech. Conquest is fast as hell and allowed to kite with 2220 range gauss cannons, why is 1575 range Odyssey unacceptable then? Similarly, Falcons are about as fast as high tech stuff, yet they can use 1650 range kinetics.
The Conquest counterbalances its offensive potential by having one of the worst defensive profiles in the game, while the Falcon building around ballistic range has inferior firepower to destroyers.
The Diktat needs a battleship that can compete with Paragon/Onslaught that embraces the energy/ballistic mix that is midline. Something like 2 large energy and 2 large ballistic mounts with decent flux stats.If Hegemony gets Onslaught, Tri-Tachyon gets Paragon, Persean League gets Pegasus, and Church gets Invictus (and Remnants get Radiant), then what does Diktat get? Conquest is too flimsy to be a battleship despite costing 40 DP.
If the Diktat had a more conventional line Capital, I don’t even know what really fits the profile. Perhaps a midline battle carrier of some sort? Or, something related to their fuel monopoly? I guess whatever it is, it should be part of the elite Lion’s Guard and rare.A battle carrier doesn't make sense for the Dictate. Of all the main factions, they use the least carriers. Instead the Dictate's theme sort of is lots of good quality warships with maximum firepower. That isn't to say they couldn't use a fairly tanky warship intended to work with conquests or perhaps a missile focused capital that swarms the battlefield in a different way?
Unique player faction ships are a cool idea (that has come up a lot in the past), but having a few fixed presets wouldn't really fulfill that fantasy. Maybe visually you could have predefined sprites (so no runtime recoloring shenanigans), but the player gets to choose what aspect to change about the ship. So, for example, you have a steel-blue (default player color) Shrike sprite, but when you learn the blueprint, you get to choose one weapon mount to change to a different type, or something like that.The idea is no other faction has the ship, and it is not a mere reskin like Legion XIV is to Legion currently, but significantly altered like Condor vs. Tarsus at least, or a completely new ship. It may not be what the player really wanted, but at least it sets him apart from other factions.
A capital ship that's actually just 20 lashers taped together, with the special ability to come lose. ;DMake them explosive Lashers.
A capital ship that's actually just 20 lashers taped together, with the special ability to come lose. ;DMake them explosive Lashers.
You hit the thing once (or worse, it hits you), and YOU HAVE AWOKEN THE BEE'S NEST.
I have never played X2 the Threat, but could you explain please?A capital ship that's actually just 20 lashers taped together, with the special ability to come lose. ;DMake them explosive Lashers.
You hit the thing once (or worse, it hits you), and YOU HAVE AWOKEN THE BEE'S NEST.
Ever played X2 the Threat? It had a similar enemy.
Actually working on it :D
I have never played X2 the Threat, but could you explain please?A capital ship that's actually just 20 lashers taped together, with the special ability to come lose. ;DMake them explosive Lashers.
You hit the thing once (or worse, it hits you), and YOU HAVE AWOKEN THE BEE'S NEST.
Ever played X2 the Threat? It had a similar enemy.
Ever played X2 the Threat? It had a similar enemy.I have never played X2 the Threat, but could you explain please?