Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Megas on February 02, 2022, 06:28:51 PM
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I have been using them more lately partly because I need something not as flux hungry as phase lance on some ships (like Medusa and Eagle), and since we know Sparks wrecked fleets back in early 0.9a, why not use those burst lasers for assault if our other options do not work so great (because the obvious anti-armor options available to the ship are way too flux-hungry). They seem somewhat effective in the SIM, although I have yet to try the weapons on more than Tempests in campaign fights.
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I haven't quite used them on purpose for that role, but I have noticed that they are effective against light armor in a way that other PD isn't. I had a pair on the front of my Falcons (2x HAC, 2x Phase Lances, 4x burst pd) for a while and they were doing good work backing up the phase lances. At 7OP they are expensive, but they do bring a lot of capability to small energy mounts given something else to wear down shields.
On a side note, I've found phase lances to be reasonable flux wise. They aren't as efficient as pulse lasers, but they're only 261 flux per second (wiki numbers, don't know if its up to date), and they have 500 penetration which is quite good for medium caliber guns. I haven't really played around with Eagles but 2 do well on Falcons, no need for advanced optics (I want the kinetics firing first anyways and Falcons have the speed to close with an aggressive officer).
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Burst PD in general has decent dual-purpose capability against light armor in my experience. Other people's experience too it seems from seeing some ship variants in mods that use burst PD as attack weapons.
Put four regular Burst PD Lasers on a frigate with Advanced Optics and Expanded Magazines and it will melt other frigates with repeated undodgeable instant damage spikes. Especially effective for AI ships in your fleet that may have more trouble using dodgeable weapons against fast and small targets.
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On a side note, I've found phase lances to be reasonable flux wise. They aren't as efficient as pulse lasers, but they're only 261 flux per second (wiki numbers, don't know if its up to date), and they have 500 penetration which is quite good for medium caliber guns. I haven't really played around with Eagles but 2 do well on Falcons, no need for advanced optics (I want the kinetics firing first anyways and Falcons have the speed to close with an aggressive officer).
It is the flux spike caused by phase lance at a bad time that dooms my ships despite having less flux per second than pulse laser. I found one is okay, but two or more is asking for overload from a cherry tap from the enemy.
So far, I have used Advanced Optics for burst lasers when I want them for assault. Burst PDs flash fast enough that Advanced Turret Gyros seem unnecessary.
I have tried Medusa with two railguns and small/medium burst PD, and it is doing better than double phase lance or some other medium energy combinations. Likewise, once I can get my Eagle to stick to targets, five burst pd up front plus phase lance or ion beam in the center medium, with all beams supporting three kinetics seems to work fairly well in the sim, although I have not tried it in bounty fights.
Another thing about phase lance. They track slow, and their reload delay is long.
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Hmm, I wonder how good burst pd would be for assault stacking AO and elite PD? I think both apply after ITU/gunnery implant range boosts, but an extra 400 range with its fast beam extend and accuracy is interesting!
I kind of want to try kinetics + burst PD + heavy burst PD on an eagle/falcons with an officer and see how it does now. Maybe with arbalests to save on OP/be efficient? On the other hand the extra range and dps from HACs is probably better.
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I don't use either much. You need very heavy investment into energy PD before it starts doing anything more than zapping occasional Salamander. Too easy to overwhelm in small numbers. A ship that does so will have very anemic damage output, unless it's IR Pulse IPDAI spam.
So I very much prefer ships like Odyssey and Conquest that can make massed IR Pulse IPDAI work. This is how you get energy PD with usable throughput to shut down Dooms/etc. That doubles as anti-frigate/fighter/destroyer. It's very heavy on flux cost though, so AI has serious issues with such builds (it will often disable IR pulse guns way too early and eat missiles on shield).
Also, small Burst PD is easily neutered by flares, but if you add IPDAI, than that's already a decently big investment. Medium PBD has built-in flare ignore, so there is a bit of a niche for it.
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The burst PD beams are efficient and have decent armor piercing, so long as they're paired with weapons that can actually take shields down. So I frequently use small burst PD whenever I've a frigate with small energy mounts and more mounts and OP than its flux generation can cover.
... So, usually on early Wolves and such. 3x Burst PD 1x Ion Pulser 2x Sabots does a decent job of mulching an opposing frigate in a 1v1, and then I've got a free wolf harassing a harder target with heavy ion damage.
The Heavy Burst Laser... sometimes, if I've spare medium energy mounts around after dedicating my flux elsewhere. Eagles don't have that much flux for their mounts, for instance. That's less common than the smalls, though.
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There were some meme builds with them but in general 64 dps for 40 FPS is good on efficiency but not compared to regular PD lasers at 75/40 or LR PD at 50/30… or mining lasers at 40/10 with 600 range! They have better pen, but missiles don’t have armor… they don’t have enough damage to kill fighters that well either. Or rather they would but the fighters you would want to shoot them at all have decoy flares.
The main use for them is rear point defense on front shielded ships when fighting pirates. They have enough oomph to kill a salamander and prevent you from having to maneuver to defeat it. Whereas vulcans can sometimes fail here burst PD is pretty consistent. Most of the time is just worth maneuvering though.
The meme use is for killing frigates with fast ships that have massed small energy slots but not enough flux to fire real guns like IR pulse. (Ironic that they can kill frigates but not fighters). So you can dump a bunch of damage “now” and then Recharge your weapons. (Whereas regular PD Lasers don’t burst fast enough to get through shields or armor)
I almost never use medium+ burst PD but might maybe on a falcon or Eagle. In general medium energy slots are far too valuable to use for PD and they’re usually front facing to boot where you would prefer lrpd
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Hmm, I wonder how good burst pd would be for assault stacking AO and elite PD? I think both apply after ITU/gunnery implant range boosts, but an extra 400 range with its fast beam extend and accuracy is interesting!
I kind of want to try kinetics + burst PD + heavy burst PD on an eagle/falcons with an officer and see how it does now. Maybe with arbalests to save on OP/be efficient? On the other hand the extra range and dps from HACs is probably better.
I think adding expanded magazines will help a lot with that skill set. A full burst from 3x small BPD and 3x medium BPD deals only 3368 energy damage. That's just barely enough to kill a frigate that's fluxed out. Expanded magazines brings the damage up so that, even accounting for shots wasted (on shields or other stuff), an eagle can reliably burst a frigate.
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I thought using burst PD for anti-armor (and anti-missile) on the likes of Eagle, who might need all of their hardpoints for kinetics to compete with the likes of Eradicator and Dominator, but then needs anti-armor from their energy mounts (since their missile capacity is very small). Pulse lasers are too flux-intensive and/or short-ranged, let alone blasters. Phase lances can use Advanced Optics, but flux spikes can cause problems (or outright miss if Eagle is spinning fast with jets). Continuous beams are not strong enough against armor. What is left, aside from not using Eagle (or Falcon) in the first place? That is when I decided to try burst lasers, as many as it can cram (except one for phase lance or ion beam). On Eagle, five small burst PDs, two heavy burst lasers, and player's choice on center medium (phase, ion, or another burst laser).
The burst lasers do not need to kill, just punch through armor so that kinetic spam is effective enough against hull. With enough of them, it works at least up to destroyers. Probably needs help by cruisers, and that is when one other beam can be useful.
P.S. If player can get it, the Combat skill that adds 200 range to PD is very nice. Combined with Advanced Optics, player needs at least 800 range kinetics to match burst PD range. (Unfortunately for me, I cannot spare a skill point for that just for Falcon or Eagle.)
I think adding expanded magazines will help a lot with that skill set.
I doubt Expanded Magazines would be useful. The beams only fire at ships when at max charges. I want the beams firing at ships, but if it takes longer to reach max charge (after spending them against missile or fighter spam), then the beams will not fire at ships for a longer time.
P.P.S. With Advanced Optics, the burst PDs can roughly match 700 range kinetics.
Another thing, under AI control, it needs Aggressive or Reckless to get close enough to the enemy. For some reason, un-officered in the SIM does not respect Fleet Doctrine (too cowardly despite doctrine set to Aggressive, maybe acting as Steady instead). I had to plant an Aggressive officer in the ship to force Aggressive behavior in the SIM.
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Update: I tried burst beam Eagles (plus one Phase Lance) with officers against some endgame deserter bounties, and so far, they are not bad enough to be a waste. They could brawl, and I had one casualty (in the fight that killed my Radiant).
Without s-mods on the Eagles, I could not fill every mount with burst PD without sacrificing too many vents. On the officer with Ordnance Expert, kinetics were Heavy Autocannons, but two of the light energy mounts were empty. On the officer without OE, kinetics were Arbalests, and one light energy was empty.
Hullmods were Advanced Optics, ITU, and Stabilized Shields.
I guess I should try them against Ordos, but I have my doubts that they will be good enough.
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Are you sure that advanced optics are needed? For this role (zapping frigates and armor) ships usually close with the enemy, or have the enemy close in on them. I know that for phase lance on falcon/eagle advanced optics is not needed and mostly a trap, at least for aggressive officers.
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Update: I tried burst beam Eagles (plus one Phase Lance) with officers against some endgame deserter bounties, and so far, they are not bad enough to be a waste. They could brawl, and I had one casualty (in the fight that killed my Radiant).
This would have been my guess. Burst PD has really had DPS/Slot and DPS/OP. With only decent flux efficiency. You had 2 burst medium and 3 burst small which have a range of 500+200 -> 700 And up to 900 with AO which is pretty good. But that is also 43 OP of equipment for 338 DPS. While Ordinance Expertise lessens this impact a significant amount, especially due to the decent efficiency(and burst) its still the sustained DPS of a pulse laser which costs 10 OP. Its the sustained DPS of 4.5 regular PD lasers.(though regular PD lasers interact poorly with AO)
I am not even sure it isn't the best option since the eagle has a LOT of guns for its flux given the relative flux usage of medium energy and so relatively little to spend OP on. But it would seem really hard to be better than 2-3 phase lances(or an Ion Beam) with the extra OP spent on hull mods
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Are you sure that advanced optics are needed? For this role (zapping frigates and armor) ships usually close with the enemy, or have the enemy close in on them. I know that for phase lance on falcon/eagle advanced optics is not needed and mostly a trap, at least for aggressive officers.
I have tried Steady, but what happens is they cower when their flux gets half or higher then get picked off, whether by SIM Graviton Eagle or other cruiser. It loses badly in a SIM duel with Steady AI against most cruisers, but not with Aggressive. (If it cannot win a SIM duel, it cannot win in the campaign.) Aggressive is needed if shot range is limited to 700-800 base.
Aggressive gets close, but it does not hover around machine range for very long. If anything, it tends to hover close to Arbalest/Railgun/Needler range, even if I use Heavy ACs. But that is okay, kinetics are the main guns anyway, the beams are mainly PD or anti-armor.
The role I have in mind is zapping all ships up to cruiser size. (Phase or Ion needed for cruisers.) I make an allowance for either one Phase Beam or one Ion Beam, every other energy mount that can be filled is burst PD for dual-purpose PD and anti-armor. I have tried two Phase Lances, but I have been burned by the flux spikes in the past, and occasionally sudden turns spoiling lance aim while it fires.
If I need to get that close to use Phase Lance without Advanced Optics, I should drop the 700-800 range kinetics and try HMGs, but I do not want to do that. The point of using Advanced Optics beams is more range than pulse lasers.
I am not even sure it isn't the best option since the eagle has a LOT of guns for its flux given the relative flux usage of medium energy and so relatively little to spend OP on. But it would seem really hard to be better than 2-3 phase lances(or an Ion Beam) with the extra OP spent on hull mods
The biggest problem is limited ballistic and missile slots. With Eagle, I want 500 or more DPS worth of kinetics because low-tech cruisers can output that much easily. Without heavy needlers, I need all three hardpoints for kinetics. That leaves small missiles or energy mounts. The hard flux energy options have poor range and efficiency, so that leaves beams. But the 1000 range beams are unsuitable for anti-armor. Only the burst beams are powerful enough to break armor.
Of course, I could use heavy needlers plus mortar, but the main problem with needlers for most of their game is their rarity. I do not have enough needlers until I build a colony and steal the blueprints from Culann (or maybe Sindria), then build as many needlers as I need. That means railguns, autocannons, or arbalests for most of the game.
I will admit burst PD beams is likely not a top-tier loadout. Just one that seems functional enough, one that I had better success with than other loadouts.
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Ok, I did a building session from the missions for the Falcon (so no skills/S mods) and in terms of using burst PD as anti-armor/hull zappers, the best build for the Falcon I found was:
Heavy Mortar+Heavy needler in a linked group (important), 2x IR pulse (front), 2x Heavy burst pd laser, 2x Reaper, 2x pd laser (rear). ITU, 14 caps, 30 vents. Adding advanced turret gyros (and setting it to 10 caps 28 vents) works slightly better in many cases, with the improved turret performance making up for flux stats vs missiles and fighters, and a small disadvantage vs heavier ships for fighting flux wars.
For testing this build, the scenarios I ran it up against were:
The Broadsword Condor and the Piranha Condor, for constant pressure testing. Solo Hammerhead, Enforcer, Medusa, for bullying testing (Falcon should and does win decisively), Double hammerhead for testing against ranged/double teaming (usually wins, but an eliminate order to keep it focused helps a ton), Aurora (Falcon loses, but slowly). I usually put the full assault order on to simulate having a proper personality.
The main reason for not having 4x burst pd (or 2x burst 2x heavy) in the build is for sustained anti-fighter/missile DPS as revealed by the double condor test: while at 70% CR the ir pulse have some problems their double DPS makes up for it, and at 100% CR they hit much more reliably. Under AI control this build takes bomb hits on bad runs (or a whole lot of machine gun damage t0 armor), but reliably wins. However, this testing showed something I've been growing to appreciate: new pilums are good at pressure, their EMP arcs are nasty, their high hitpoints let them saturate PD, and vs hull they do good damage. The main reason many Falcons lose vs the double Condors is the Pilums following up the machine gun fire, both for damage and just for getting flamed out through the shields in the path of a bomb wave. Another configuration I tried (2x small burst pd, 2x pulse lasers) simply didn't have the PD power to stop them well enough, especially with flares neutering the burst pd's alpha strike.
I found that IPDAI IR pulse lasers, without skills, do not do well enough vs missiles to justify their use. Their sustained DPS is nice, but they lack the accuracy to hit Pilums or Harpoons with consistency even at 100% CR: 4 of them was enough to usually stop most, but they were also sucking down huge amounts of flux with all their wasted shots. For the build that worked best, IPDAI was detrimental because it made the IR pulses shoot at missiles and miss, while they could instead be shooting at fighters and be hitting.
Including the heavy mortar was a bit of a surprise, but I found that after I added the IR pulses as anti-fighter DPS, they started helping quite a lot against shields (with a proper personality that closes with the enemy) and I didn't need both HACs to win a flux war. The 2heavy burst pd were doing decent armor zapping, but they only have 150 dps between them. Swapping in a heavy mortar added a lot of anti armor/hull DPS and with the guns being lowered to 700 range anyways and the saved OP, swapping to a heavy needler from a HAC was natural.
[Edit] Regarding personalities: I consider Steady AI to be very cautious and only acceptable for kiting ships. Sometimes that is an acceptable officer if I have a specific artillery ship in mind (like a sunder), but in general I will only employ aggressive and reckless officers, and my AI doctrine is set to 1 below maximum.
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Been playing around with burst PD on more ships. So far, I tried...
Centurion with two burst PD up front for anti-armor, and two railguns behind them. Rear mounts empty due to lack of OP. Why? Not enough anti-shield firepower with one railgun and one LAG against the likes of Lasher. Also shreds incoming missiles.
Hammerhead with two Arbalests and two burst PD (with Advanced Optics) in the front small hybrids. Rear mounts empty. Why? Vulcans were not reliable enough in shooting down Salamanders. And burst PD takes out incoming missiles. Not as strong offensively as something like three railguns and a heavy mortar.
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Ive been using small burst PD on some of my destroyers. Considering its a beam weapon and works High Scatter Amplifier, it can do pretty respectable damage to ships and kill fighters in 1-2 shots (Usually just one).
The larger mounts can probably do more with HSA against larger ships but I would need to run some tests with it.