Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Mods => Modding Resources => Topic started by: keptin on April 28, 2012, 07:30:20 AM

Title: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: keptin on April 28, 2012, 07:30:20 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/fzQVs.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/iD7LZ.jpg)

This suite is a dynamic Excel sheet with a variety of tools in it to help you balance your ship mods.  Once you input your mod's ship_data, the graphs and tools will automatically calculate a mystical Fleetpoint Combat Score for each ship along with other useful data values available throughout the suite.

Simply input your mod's ship_data by pasting it in the mod ship data section starting at row 163 and everything is ready to go!
As you edit your ship's values, the graphs will update on the fly, allowing you to better tune your ships with vanilla ones.

The Fleetpoint Combat Score takes the following attributes into account:
fleetpts, hitpoints, armor rating, max flux, flux dissipation, ordinance, max speed, acceleration, deceleration, max turn, turn acceleration, shield upkeep, shield efficiency, cargo size, hangar size

Current Tools:
Relative Ship Comparison Tool
Spoiler
This tool allows you to compare up to four ships simultaneously by some of the game's most critical attributes.
(http://i.imgur.com/0N8Y7.jpg)
[close]
Dynamic Fleetpoint Combat Value Graph
Spoiler
For every ship, the suite determines its combat effectiveness per cost of fleetpoints, called the Fleetpoint Combat Value.  This is a great tool to quickly modify a ship's stats to bring its Fleetpoint Combat Value in line with a corresponding vanilla ship.
(http://i.imgur.com/o7sfB.jpg)
[close]
Recomended Base Value & Price Checker
Spoiler
Calculates a ship's recommended value based on magic math and compares that with its current base value.
[close]

Changelog:
Code
BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
-Fixed shield efficiency calculation to interpret shield values correctly
-Replaced trendlines with fleetpoint lines to better communicate that you're comparing ships of similar fleetpoint value and not the mod against vanilla as a whole
-Added notes column to explain ship outliers
/////////////////////////////////
BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
-Increased accuracy of recommended price for carriers and ships with large hangars
-Added price checker colors to recommended price special stats column to ease mass correcting of prices
/////////////////////////////////
BalanceSuite 5000 v1.4
-Agility and Cargo are now taken into account when calculating the combat value and recommended base value
-Recommended base value adjusted to be more accurate per fleetpoint
-Added Relative Balance Checker tool to compare fleetpoint-adjusted combat value side by side in the ship comparison tool
/////////////////////////////////
BalanceSuite 5000 v1.3
-Integrated Recommended Base Value into Price Checker Tool cell U85
/////////////////////////////////
BalanceSuite 5000 v1.2
-Added Recommended Base Value in Special Stats area
-Hangar bay size beyond 25 is taken into consideration when calculating the aggregate score
/////////////////////////////////
BalanceSuite 5000 v1.1
-Integrated Shield balancing, now computes in aggregate score
-Changed the Combat-Fleetpoint Performance Graph to now take fleetpoints into consideration.

Note: you may need Excel 2007+ and/or the XYChartLabler addon (http://www.appspro.com/Utilities/ChartLabeler.htm) to view graph ship labels.


In hopes that it will generate community pressure to keep mods vanilla-balanced, this seal is available to balanced mods using the BalanceSuite 5000.
FLAUNT YOUR BALANCING, SUPPORT A CAUSE:

_____________________________________________

(http://i.imgur.com/F215u.png) (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2382.msg31058#msg31058)

Code
Forum code:
[url=http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2382.msg31058#msg31058][img]http://i.imgur.com/F215u.png[/img][/url]
_____________________________________________

Download BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/66999462/BalanceSUITE_v1.6.xlsx
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: Upgradecap on April 28, 2012, 07:53:51 AM
I can comfirm that this method works on OpenOffice, though i can't understand this method particulairly well, but i'm going to use it anyway ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: keptin on April 28, 2012, 07:59:17 AM
If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them. 

While I had my doubts about how helpful it'd be, once I plugged everything in it was obvious which ships were in need of buffing/nerfing and with it all dynamically calculating I was able to change a number of values slightly and balance it in seconds.
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: Vordhosbn88 on April 28, 2012, 08:03:05 AM
Fantastic  ;D I really hope that people are going to start using this for mod-balancing, I find the vanilla game kind of boring, but modded games unpredictable due to a lack of balancing.
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: Upgradecap on April 28, 2012, 08:05:11 AM
Yeah, but i didn't quite get where you'd paste your mods ship data in. Is it in the open program or the files of it?
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: Thaago on April 28, 2012, 08:05:28 AM
Wow! Looks very well done!

I do note a few oddities, such as the Brawler being ranked very high - how much is speed factored in?
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: keptin on April 28, 2012, 08:09:49 AM
Neither speed nor shields are factored in yet, which explains the hound.  The Brawler is just damn good value.  Currently it takes fleetpts, hitpoints, armor rating, max flux, flux dissipation, and ordinance into account.  If people show interest in it I'll dev it further and tidy it up.

Yeah, but i didn't quite get where you'd paste your mods ship data in. Is it in the open program or the files of it?

It's an .xmlx file, open it using Excel (it may or may not be compatible with Open Office) and follow the instructions up top.  Your ship's data is found in the ship_data.csv file in the data/hulls folder.
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: Uomoz on April 28, 2012, 09:08:12 AM
Wow man. Just wow. K-64 is doing a similar job (thank you K-64!), but you are far ahead in this sheet! I'll abuse of this for Uomoz's Corvus price balancing.
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: Dohon on April 28, 2012, 09:14:52 AM
This is mind-boggingly awesome work.
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: Uomoz on April 28, 2012, 09:36:52 AM
Too bad, Openoffice doesn't support XYChartLabler. Uomoz is sad :(
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: Upgradecap on April 28, 2012, 09:41:38 AM
Too bad, Openoffice doesn't support XYChartLabler. Uomoz is sad :(

WHAAAT?? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO  :'(
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: keptin on April 28, 2012, 11:08:06 AM
Do you need it?  I'm not sure what the graphs look like if you don't have it...do they not have any names next to the scatter plot dots?
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: Uomoz on April 28, 2012, 11:10:45 AM
They have the values, like 778.3, 627.3 etc.

Downloading Office 2010, my mother have an original Cd-Key.
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.1
Post by: keptin on April 28, 2012, 11:56:10 AM
BalanceSuite v1.1 posted

Code
BalanceSuite v1.1
-Integrated Shield balancing, now computes in aggregate score
-Changed the Combat-Fleetpoint Performance Graph to now take fleetpoints into consideration.

I'm working on a recommended base value (price) tool, but it's a *** to work out.  This thing is like 85% bad math.
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.1
Post by: Uomoz on April 28, 2012, 12:07:47 PM
BalanceSuite v1.1 posted

Code
BalanceSuite v1.1
-Integrated Shield balancing, now computes in aggregate score
-Changed the Combat-Fleetpoint Performance Graph to now take fleetpoints into consideration.

I'm working on a recommended base value (price) tool, but it's a *** to work out.  This thing is like 85% bad math.

Yay!
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.1
Post by: mendonca on April 28, 2012, 01:09:25 PM
This is very useful, thanks for your work on this.
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.1
Post by: keptin on April 28, 2012, 01:27:41 PM
BalanceSuite v1.2 posted.

Code
BalanceSuite v1.2
-Added Recommended Price feature in Special Stats area
-Hangar bay size beyond 25 is taken into consideration when calculating the aggregate score

This is very useful, thanks for your work on this.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.2
Post by: Uomoz on April 28, 2012, 02:46:05 PM
Awesome tool!!! I love the graphics and the aesthetic xD. About the latest feature (suggested price) and looking at vanilla ships:

Hyperion (costs a lot more in vanilla, maybe take into account the great strike potential)

Tempest (costs a lot more in vanilla, maybe take more into account great speed)

Lasher (costs less in vanilla, maybe take more into account the low speed)

Sunder (costs less in vanilla, maybe the super-low armor value should lower it's recommended cost)

Condor (costs LESS(?) in vanilla, without taking into account the launch bay)

Buffalo\Tarsus\Valkyrie (costs a more in vanilla, maybe take into account cargohold)

Medusa (costs a lot more in vanilla, maybe take into account the high speed)

Venture (costs equal to vanilla, without taking into account the launch bay)

Onslaught (costs a lot less in vanilla, maybe take into account super-low speed)

Astral (costs more in vanilla, maybe take into account the launch bays)

Atlas (costs a lot less in vanilla, maybe take into account giant cargohold)

Conquest (costs a lot less in vanilla, no idea why)





Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.3
Post by: keptin on April 28, 2012, 03:22:19 PM
BalanceSuite v1.3 posted!

Changelog:
Code
BalanceSuite v1.3
-Integrated Recommended Base Value into Price Checker for the Ship Comparison Tool
-Added Fleetpoint Combat Value comparison for The Ship Comparison Tool

The price recommendations should become more accurate as I account for more ship attributes, but I can only get so close if they were chosen arbitrarily and not based on a formula.  It's more of a ballpark figure.  Honestly, playing the game and seeing some of these makes me think that a few of the vanilla ships are in need of a price changes...like the Onslaught  :o
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship BalanceSuite v1.3
Post by: hairrorist on April 28, 2012, 03:32:36 PM
Dude, this rules.  I was about to whip something up as per my last thread, but you beat me to it.  Hope this sees a lot of use.  I'm wondering if mod authors would mind someone making a vanilla balanced version of their mods, like the Dominions 3 modding community.  Someone releases a mod, later the MP crowd balances it and re-releases it.  Not necessary this early in the game but it made for a great community.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.3
Post by: TJJ on April 28, 2012, 04:20:46 PM
Awesome tool, good job in creating it!
I look forward to seeing a version that factors in the massively important shield damage reduction factor!
(even if it's only to confirm what we already know regarding the OP-ness of the Aurora & Medusa!)

After that.... I wonder how easy it would be to factor in the various aspects of ship's weapon mounts.
Accounting for synergy in weapon type (to account for the efficiency of relevant hull mods), and weapon facing (to account for the ability to focus fire) might get rather complicated to calculate.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.3
Post by: Uomoz on April 28, 2012, 04:25:55 PM
After that.... I wonder how easy it would be to factor in the various aspects of ship's weapon mounts.
Accounting for synergy in weapon type (to account for the efficiency of relevant hull mods), and weapon facing (to account for the ability to focus fire) might get rather complicated to calculate.

We can add that factor as an external (to the sheet) extra value. Like *strike weaponry* +20% price or *total pd coverage* +10% price.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.3
Post by: keptin on April 28, 2012, 04:36:29 PM
Awesome tool, good job in creating it!
I look forward to seeing a version that factors in the massively important shield damage reduction factor!

It does!  ;)  The shield upkeep and shield efficiency are both taken into account when calculating the aggregate score.  I added it in a recent version and the changelog, but didn't update the Combat score attributes list on the front page until now.  I was thinking of adding a way to set weapon mounts, but the effectiveness of mounts is very dependent on their arcs and that quickly gets messy.  I plan to factor in speed and maybe cargo size, but that's about it, a quick one day tool.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.3
Post by: Vandala on April 28, 2012, 05:50:35 PM
Wow, this looks impressive.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.3
Post by: armoredcookie on April 28, 2012, 07:02:35 PM
Nice work, but it seems like something simple to compare speeds and price is missing?
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.3
Post by: hairrorist on April 28, 2012, 07:27:25 PM
Price shouldn't really be counted... the player will always get enough money to have the best for each role, while the AI will stick to its arranged fleets.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.4
Post by: keptin on April 28, 2012, 08:16:01 PM
BalanceSuite v1.4 is live!

Changelog:
Code
BalanceSuite v1.4
-Agility and Cargo are now taken into account when calculating the combat value and recommended base value
-Recommended base value adjusted to be more accurate per fleetpoint
-Added Relative Balance Checker tool to compare fleetpoint-adjusted combat value side by side in the ship comparison tool


it seems like something simple to compare speeds and price is missing?

Both speed and price comparisons have been in since v1.0.  If you're referring to the recommended price, it's easier said than done. This is currently the price recomendation formula to get it as accurate (or inaccurate) as it is:
Code
=MROUND(IF(AND($AG100<14, $AG100>10),((($AZ100)^1.18*($AG100)^2.3/(($AG100)*2))/2.1),((IF($AG100<17,MROUND(IF($AG100>9,(($AZ100)^1.1*($AG100)^2.42/(($AG100)*2))/2.1,(($AZ100)^1.105*($AG100)^2.24/(($AG100)*1.27))/1.8),1),MROUND(IF($AG100<18,(($AZ100)^1.14*($AG100)^2.4/(($AG100)*2))/2,(($AZ100)^1.15*($AG100)^2.4/(($AG100)*2))/1),1))+IF($AA100>25,($AA100-25)^3,0))+(IF($W100>30,$W100*7,$W100*2.5)))),100)
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.4
Post by: arcibalde on April 29, 2012, 01:42:50 AM
This is extremely useful tool.  ;D Thanks dude, for creating this.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.4
Post by: cp252 on April 29, 2012, 07:59:07 AM
The problem is that some things (like the background of the ship, and the way the attributes work together) can't be accounted for with formulae.
Still, this gets you 95% of the way to a properly balanced mod. So thumbs up.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.3
Post by: Thaago on April 29, 2012, 11:45:30 AM
Price shouldn't really be counted... the player will always get enough money to have the best for each role, while the AI will stick to its arranged fleets.

Sadly this is true in the current campaign, but I really hope that this becomes false. In my opinion it just makes things incredibly boring and immersion breaking when the player can afford the best of the best within a month, but somehow all other fleets can't...
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.4
Post by: keptin on April 29, 2012, 11:52:42 AM
BalanceSuite v1.5 is up!

Code
BalanceSuite v1.5
-Increased accuracy of recommended price for carriers and ships with large hangars
-Added price checker colors to recommended price special stats column to ease mass correcting of prices


The problem is that some things (like the background of the ship, and the way the attributes work together) can't be accounted for with formulae.
Still, this gets you 95% of the way to a properly balanced mod. So thumbs up.

I completely agree, there are many factors that need to be taken into account that a tool just can't 1, 2, 3, bam, magically balance for.  Ship size, weapon mounts, weapons, weapon arcs, etc.  My hopes are that this tool will give modders ballpark figures to help avoid cases where modded ships are overwhelmingly OP.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.4
Post by: Thaago on April 29, 2012, 05:16:12 PM
BalanceSuite v1.5 is up!

Code
BalanceSuite v1.5
-Increased accuracy of recommended price for carriers and ships with large hangars
-Added price checker colors to recommended price special stats column to ease mass correcting of prices


The problem is that some things (like the background of the ship, and the way the attributes work together) can't be accounted for with formulae.
Still, this gets you 95% of the way to a properly balanced mod. So thumbs up.

I completely agree, there are many factors that need to be taken into account that a tool just can't 1, 2, 3, bam, magically balance for.  Ship size, weapon mounts, weapons, weapon arcs, etc.  My hopes are that this tool will give modders ballpark figures to help avoid cases where modded ships are overwhelmingly OP.

I also hope modders will use this! I spent a bit of time today playing with mods... I didn't find a single one where the ships weren't so ridiculously overpowered that the vanilla ships were unplayable. Just ugg. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite v1.4
Post by: keptin on April 29, 2012, 05:31:31 PM
I didn't find a single [mod] where the ships weren't so ridiculously overpowered that the vanilla ships were unplayable. Just ugg. Keep up the good work!

This is a perfect time to plug my favorite mods:

Interstellar Federation, http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2012.0

And the highly recommended

Uomoz's Factions Collection, http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=1799.0
Title: Re: BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: keptin on April 29, 2012, 07:26:49 PM
Added BalanceSuite 5000 seal to the front page for mods with vanilla-balanced ships in hopes that it will generate community pressure to keep mods balanced.  Flaunt your balancing, support a cause.

(http://i.imgur.com/F215u.png)

Code
[url=http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=2382.msg31058#msg31058][img]http://i.imgur.com/F215u.png[/img][/url]
Title: Re: Starfarer Ship Balance Suite v1.0
Post by: Archduke Astro on April 30, 2012, 12:52:15 AM
Too bad, Openoffice doesn't support XYChartLabler. Uomoz is sad :(

Yes, so am I. :'( Not a single copy of Excel in this house; LibreOffice only. Damn. :-\
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: Apophis on April 30, 2012, 01:18:55 AM
In balancesuit opinion my mod weapons pack is perfectly balanced  :)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: keptin on April 30, 2012, 01:21:02 AM
Have you tried opening it? My understanding is that OpenOffice opens it, but just doesn't show the ship labels.  There are many other tools in the suite.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: mendonca on April 30, 2012, 01:34:09 AM
Have you tried opening it? My understanding is that OpenOffice opens it, but just doesn't show the ship labels.  There are many other tools in the suite.
Yeah, looks to me like the only problem is with the larger 'general balance' graph, and not knowing easily which ship is which by overall score.

I'm sure there must be a way round it, but I haven't been able to figure it out yet.

The radar graphs still work beautifully for direct comparisons of craft - I found it perfectly usable anyway, if not quite 100% compatible.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: Aklyon on May 01, 2012, 01:03:54 PM
Theres a difference between OO and LibreOffice, one has been updating and the other hasn't.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: hairrorist on May 01, 2012, 02:12:38 PM
That graph you posted is interesting, Apophis.  Seems that the tool undervalues flight decks and overvalues deadweight ships like the onslaught.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: Apophis on May 01, 2012, 02:55:59 PM
I think it understimate the importance of armor and speed (it ignores flight decks)
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: keptin on May 01, 2012, 04:17:47 PM
The line is a median trendline...I found it useful as a guide, but I might remove it if it's being interpreted as a "your mod is balanced" line.  It doesn't indicate overall balance because the trend is affected by weight, i.e., a mod with several 5 fleetpoint ships and 1 15 fleetpoint ship will have a skewed trendline.

As far as armor and speed, I standby its combat performance calculation.  The Onslaught is extremely effective, more so than what it's valued at.  A fleet of them will destroy an equivalently priced fleet of nearly any other capital ship.  My testing has thus far concluded that armor is the single greatest combat factor in large scale fleet engagements.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: hairrorist on May 01, 2012, 05:56:14 PM
Interesting.  Maybe its just my hatred for them coloring my thinking :)
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: hairrorist on May 03, 2012, 02:08:28 PM
Anyone know what mods fit pretty well with Vanilla these days?  Scavengers seems pretty balanced.   Starfarer Plus has a few ships that are really out of line like the buckler frigate.

We should get a list going.  Maybe in the stickied Master Mod List thread we could separate Vanilla Balanced mods.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: Uomoz on May 03, 2012, 02:15:34 PM
Anyone know what mods fit pretty well with Vanilla these days?  Scavengers seems pretty balanced.   Starfarer Plus has a few ships that are really out of line like the buckler frigate.

We should get a list going.  Maybe in the stickied Master Mod List thread we could separate Vanilla Balanced mods.

Check again :D it's already that way.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: mendonca on May 03, 2012, 02:32:56 PM
Anyone know what mods fit pretty well with Vanilla these days?  Scavengers seems pretty balanced.   Starfarer Plus has a few ships that are really out of line like the buckler frigate.

We should get a list going.  Maybe in the stickied Master Mod List thread we could separate Vanilla Balanced mods.

We can read minds.

It's a really tricky line though, with the balance question ... do you seperate by intention, or by actuality, and a mod that consists of a load of onslaught equivalents (same firepower, same FP etc.) - is that still balanced? Could do with some discussion I think, as otherwise you can't seperate a lot of them and it becomes pointless trying to make that distinction.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: Trylobot on May 03, 2012, 02:34:40 PM
@keptin: Any plans for analysis of ship variants/weapons/DPS/etc to be included in the calculations?
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: keptin on May 03, 2012, 07:38:14 PM
None currently--I understand the tools limitations without taking weapons into account, but this bastard is getting complex.  Having community pressure to balance ships against vanilla and teaching others how to balance roughly will probably yield the best results.  In the end, unbalanced mods won't be played as often and the problem will solve itself.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: craftomega on May 04, 2012, 02:14:15 AM
DUDE.... dude.... DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is awsome! I love this!!!
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: silentstormpt on May 04, 2012, 02:18:23 AM
Great "tool" but dont forget to go Over nine thousand on future builds!
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: craftomega on May 04, 2012, 02:32:16 AM
OK just two small things I noticed.

The Atlas Superfrieghter should be removed from the list since it is a non-combat ship. And it does make a significant difference in the chart.

Also another if you could add another line to the ship info for the amount of launch bays that would make balancing and pricing carriers easier.


Anyone know what mods fit pretty well with Vanilla these days?  Scavengers seems pretty balanced.   Starfarer Plus has a few ships that are really out of line like the buckler frigate.

We should get a list going.  Maybe in the stickied Master Mod List thread we could separate Vanilla Balanced mods.

If you remove the Atlas Superfrieghter then starfarerplus is almost perfectly balenced. Also whats wrong with the buckler? That ship is insanly hard to use. And it is no more OP then the Hyperion.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: keptin on May 04, 2012, 07:02:01 AM
Glad you enjoy the tool! Instead, I'll be removing the graph's trendline.  See above:

The line is a median trendline...I found it useful as a guide, but I might remove it if it's being interpreted as a "your mod is balanced" line.  It doesn't indicate overall balance because the trend is affected by weight, i.e., a mod with several 5 fleetpoint ships and 1 15 fleetpoint ship will have a skewed trendline.

The tool can balance carriers and cargo ships, albeit not as accurately as combat ships, but I still want to keep that feature.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: hairrorist on May 04, 2012, 01:24:51 PM
Buckler is real easy for me to use at least.  Try this loadout: 2x Rails, 2x Mauler, Stab Shields, Heavy Armor, Resistant Flux conduits, Integrated Targeting Unit.  It has 10 more OP than a hyperion as well, giving it twice as much OP as the low end frigates.  It has so much more armor than anything else in its class, and so much more firepower at such high range that it is kind of ridiculous.  It can take down cruisers solo, which I guess the Hyperion can do as well, but it's really easy with the buckler.  It's definitely the closest mod currently to being balanced.  The Buckler is really the only one that has stuck out to me as being OP.  If it was significantly slower/less maneuverable and had 60op it would be fine.

I realize that the stickied list of balanced mods is a WIP as well as being an arbitrary designation, so there's bound to be some debate.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: craftomega on May 04, 2012, 08:33:46 PM
Buckler is real easy for me to use at least.  Try this loadout: 2x Rails, 2x Mauler, Stab Shields, Heavy Armor, Resistant Flux conduits, Integrated Targeting Unit.  It has 10 more OP than a hyperion as well, giving it twice as much OP as the low end frigates.  It has so much more armor than anything else in its class, and so much more firepower at such high range that it is kind of ridiculous.  It can take down cruisers solo, which I guess the Hyperion can do as well, but it's really easy with the buckler.  It's definitely the closest mod currently to being balanced.  The Buckler is really the only one that has stuck out to me as being OP.  If it was significantly slower/less maneuverable and had 60op it would be fine.

I realize that the stickied list of balanced mods is a WIP as well as being an arbitrary designation, so there's bound to be some debate.

Ok first of all this would have been some great feed back in the starfarer plus thread.

Second of all... Ya your probally right. In the next update ill do exactly what you recomend.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: Stromko on May 05, 2012, 01:42:17 AM
This is a really nice spreadsheet, and I'm glad somebody's doing this. I haven't gotten into Starfarer modding yet, but this would make balancing so much easier when I do. I wish back when I was playing Battleships Forever I'd had a tool like this.

I think it makes sense not to put very much value into speed for scenario balancing, but in the campaign, speed (especially travel speed) it always one of my major concerns. If you can pick your battles, you can advance much more quickly and avoid being killed.

A ship like the Onslaught has an excellent frontal arc and armor, it's strong at killing anything it can catch and force others into retreat, but winning battles isn't how you make money-- you make money by disabling or destroying ships, so 'what it can catch' is a big factor. In practice, I'd also say that whether it can out-DPS a single enemy depends on the engagement range. An Onslaught set up for sniping will fair poorly against any other capital ship set up as a brawler, or slowly needled to death by a fast sniper that can dodge their shots or stay out of range.

In multi-ship engagements speed is still important-- being late to the party can mean losing a comm-point and being flooded with enemy reinforcements, or losing support ships. The faster capital ships can decide just where they want to be on the battlefield, avoid being surrounded and overwhelmed, or choose what range band to engage at. Speed is an even more vital factor when it comes to non-capital ship survival.

Looking at the ship-comparison chart, personally I would say speed is more important than flux capacity by itself. I wonder if it would be possible to collapse Flux Capacity & Flux Dissipation into a single derived value to make space for speed?

As for ship credit-cost, I would agree with those who say it's not as large of a balance consideration, as cost is ultimately not a balancing factor. It's good to have a statistically determined baseline, but personally I don't mind if a modder skews it considerably, especially if it makes sense in their lore. So don't worry about the 'bad math', having an abstract baseline should be plenty for cost. I think crew requirements, capacity and cargo requirements are about in the same boat. Yes they're a factor, but once compensated for they won't make or break a ship.

In my opinion, have pretty well every vital statistic accounted for, with the notable exception of speed. Definitely going to use this if I design a ship.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: keptin on May 05, 2012, 02:39:41 AM
I agree that speed is an important combat factor and that's why max speed, acceleration, deceleration, turn speed and turn acceleration are all factored into the combat strength calculations for every ship using an "agility" composite.  It wouldn't be difficult to tie this back into the adjustable multiplier weight controls to allow users to add or remove how much speed factors into the aggregate score.

While ship cost isn't a player concern right now, I see that changing in the future to more of an "EV Nova" model where upgrading ships is the primary method to bridge the performance gap between ships (shuttle, frigate, destroyer, cruiser, etc) and purchasing new ships is a major player decision where a few thousand credits is hours of playtime, not minutes.  I think the only reason that combat payout is so high right now is because the campaign isn't very flushed out and there isn't much else to do.  Eventually, like any good game, the player will have to earn his or her way to a more powerful force--right now it all feels very much like instant gratification.  That's why I've put an emphasis on calculating the ship price.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: PCCL on May 05, 2012, 02:45:09 AM
hmm

I noticed raising the shield efficiency value makes the dot go higher...

isn't shield efficiency better when lower?
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: keptin on May 05, 2012, 03:28:17 AM
I was under the impression that Shield Upkeep controls the flux dissipation rate when the shields are up, with a higher value meaning a higher cost (i.e., lower dissipation rate)  and Shield Efficiency was the damage conversion rate, with a higher number converting less damage to flux.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: Vandala on May 05, 2012, 03:47:41 AM
I was under the impression that Shield Upkeep controls the flux dissipation rate when the shields are up, with a higher value meaning a higher cost (i.e., lower dissipation rate)  and Shield Efficiency was the damage conversion rate, with a higher number converting less damage to flux.
You are correct.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: Uomoz on May 05, 2012, 04:00:25 AM
I think the shield efficency formula is something like: Damage Received * Shield Efficiency = "Damage" on Flux. So Shield Efficiency of 0.2 is effectively twice as effective as a 0.4.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.5
Post by: keptin on May 05, 2012, 04:07:00 AM
I think the shield efficency formula is something like: Damage Received * Shield Efficiency = "Damage" on Flux. So Shield Efficiency of 0.2 is effectively twice as effective as a 0.4.

A test just confirmed this.  I'll update the tool when I have a chance.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: keptin on May 05, 2012, 05:20:16 AM
BalanceSuite5000 v1.6 is up.  Fixes some bugs and stuff.

Code
BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
-Fixed shield efficiency calculation to interpret shield values correctly
-Replaced trendlines with fleetpoint lines to better communicate that you're comparing ships of similar fleetpoint value and not the mod against vanilla as a whole
-Added notes column to explain ship outliers
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: PCCL on May 05, 2012, 02:15:59 PM
Quote
For a 9 fleetpoint destroyer, the Buffalo's lack of shields, poor agility, poor armor and poor flux capabilities give it an overall low combat value, hence its lower recommended base priced when compared with vanilla.


lol..... even ur thingy knows the buffalo sucks.....
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: K-64 on May 07, 2012, 11:29:50 AM
Don't suppose you'd think about making a weapon balance suite to complement the ship balancer? :P
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: keptin on May 07, 2012, 04:12:49 PM
Maybe down the road, but it's easy enough to balance weapons that I don't think I can justify the time.  Roughly match DPM, FluxPM with weapon of similar range, OPs, then playtest playtest playtest.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: K-64 on May 07, 2012, 05:26:56 PM
Same thing could be said for ships in a sense. Plus most ships have more than one weapon, so it can be hard to judge which weapon is getting tested most times
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: keptin on May 07, 2012, 05:47:15 PM
True, but you've got to start somewhere.

most ships have more than one weapon

Not if you only equip one.  ;)
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: Apophis on May 08, 2012, 03:32:26 PM
The balancesuit is useful but doesn't use weapons slot in calculations. I'm going to make an evolved version of the balancesuit, a program that read all the data from the starfarer directory and give bettere balancing values. I'm asking if keptin or anyone else wants to collaborate.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: keptin on May 08, 2012, 03:51:12 PM
No thanks, but by all means feel free to raid the BalanceSuite for ideas/formulas.  :)
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: arcibalde on May 09, 2012, 03:35:40 AM
I dl latest version, using ms off 2010 and run into problem. Akhm, in line 163 i added my custom ship value but your thingy put one red dot on that balance graph in 0,0 and in ship comparer section when i enter 163 in ShipRow it load ship data but don't give me recommended price.

So i pasted Odyssey data in 164 line and in ship comparer section and it give me same thing (nothing!), BUT when i put my custom ship data in line 131 (instead of Odyssey) everything worked fine. Why?

And how to use "," as separator in Excel 2010?
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: keptin on May 09, 2012, 03:43:27 AM
Unfortunately, I don't have Excel 2010 to test it with, so maybe someone that does can chime in and give you a hand.  When I paste my data into the right place using Excel 2007 it works just fine and it seems people have also had success using Open Office.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: arcibalde on May 09, 2012, 03:50:01 AM
Well i didn't manage to make OO to work with it, but for price correction i use your tool c/p every single ship in line 131 and checking price value so that way i manage to balanced ships cost :)   Nice tool  ;D
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: Uomoz on May 09, 2012, 04:28:36 AM
Hey Arci!

Attached zip: Balance Suite with Relics inside.

Used Excel 2010 ;)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: arcibalde on May 09, 2012, 05:56:51 AM
What SORCERY IS THIS!!!!  ;D



Tnx :)
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: DSMK2 on May 09, 2012, 08:08:37 AM
If a ship falls close to or follows the vanilla ship average line, is that a good indication that it is balanced? I know it's a silly question, but I'm classifying my ship as a light destroyer due to size, hull, and armor, while it ranks up with the Dominator cruiser in potential combat value.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: keptin on May 09, 2012, 08:42:35 AM
No, that's why the trendline was removed in v1.6, as too many people were making that assumption.  Ideally, your ship has a similar combat value to a vanilla ship of equal fleetpoints.  If you've got a destroyer that's as combat capable as a cruiser, at the very least it should be as costly (both fleetpoints and base price) as a comparable cruiser...if not more so, assuming its a smaller and more maneuverable target.

Outliers like this need to be play tested and balanced manually because the tool makes assumptions that fit 90% of ships, but fail to account for odd combinations.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: FlashFrozen on May 09, 2012, 09:11:39 AM
Only thing I can notice is that shield efficiency is what seems to break the combat effectiveness if you you set it to a low value, but shield arc has completely no effect on combat effectiveness, which mean you could have 1 deg 0.0 shield and it'll rate it as a ship better than 0.8 full 360 arc shield, which imo isn't exactly true in a real battle, but I guess that's for v1.7 to decide on what to do with shield arc ( which to me is VERY influential to a ships effectiveness ).
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: keptin on May 09, 2012, 09:22:17 AM
The lower the shield efficiency value, the higher the efficiency.  v1.6 should calculate it properly.

Ultimately, it's a tool to help modders ballpark figures, not a do-all one stop shop shibang it's a done deal.  The OP covers what the tool takes into account and there currently aren't any plans to expand it given that an all encompassing tool would be a PITA to create and only end up making people lazy in the long run.  Making things more accessible doesn't always yield better results.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: harperrb on May 10, 2012, 06:05:36 PM
this is awesome.

Late to the party, but its a good one none-the-less.

Thanks for putting this together.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: Avan on May 31, 2012, 02:52:55 AM
:D This is very cool

I hope to give it a spin soon
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: Cosmitz on August 05, 2012, 02:20:56 AM
Hm, i get "#NUME?" in price-related fields and in fleet/shield performance. To note, i did convert the file to Office 2000 format but that really shouldn't matter, plus, everything else works. Also, in Fleet combat value, the ship stays at the very bottom.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: keptin on August 05, 2012, 02:34:28 AM
Be sure you're pasting the correct data into the corresponding rows as the order of things has changed with 0.53.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: Cosmitz on August 05, 2012, 02:42:33 AM
Wrote them in manually, i know, you're referring to the two new phase columns.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: keptin on August 05, 2012, 02:54:03 AM
Maybe something broke on conversion, because it works fine for me in Excel 07.  It seems people have had success with Open Office too.  This tool is no longer being developed or supported, so I can only wish you best of luck in finding a solution.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: ValkyriaL on October 28, 2012, 01:52:17 PM
It doesn't work. allot of corrupted/non functional data, could be my computer however, stuff like excel becomes corrupted if i start them up and they ruin other programs like notepad, but i'm pretty sure my faction is balanced. because whenever my largest fleet hits the HDF, both fleets take huge damage. just need to have similar stats on my first faction and its pretty much ready for release.

simply went with the idea that i have my largest ship as close as possible stats wise to the best vanilla ship in that "ship era"  say the paragon,

then 75-1000 decrease in hull HP, flux, armor, dissipation for every ship that is smaller with similar gaps in ship sizes, and like - or + 2.5 to 5 in ship speed/maneuver according to ship weight and all ships have similar shield strength.

for example, my Ship.CSV, capitals to fighters from top to bottom

Spoiler
Quote
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Siegfried,siegfried,Battleship,fortressshield,30,22500,1750,27500,,1200,575,25,15,10,15,5,4000,OMNI,120,0.2,0.6,,,500,1000,750,1500,25,50,25,225000,
Kyou,kyou,Battleship,highenergyfocus,28,21250,1625,25250,,1100,450,35,20,10,20,10,3250,OMNI,120,0.2,0.6,,,425,800,750,1500,25,50,20,195000,
Phoenix,phoenix,Heavy Battlecruiser,highenergyfocus,26,19500,1550,22550,,1000,375,35,20,10,25,15,2750,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,350,700,500,1000,25,25,20,175000,
Kishida,kishida,Light Battlecruiser,highenergyfocus,22,18750,1475,20500,,925,275,35,25,15,40,20,2250,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,250,500,325,475,10,47.5,25,135000,
Kurosaki,kurosaki,Light Battlecruiser,highenergyfocus,20,17500,1450,19750,,900,250,35,25,15,40,20,2000,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,250,500,325,475,10,47.5,25,125000,
Nexus,nexus,Carrier,drone_pd,20,16950,1300,18500,,825,250,40,30,20,45,25,2750,OMNI,220,0.2,0.6,,,250,500,325,475,10,47.5,30,115000,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Hawk,hawk,Advanced Heavy Cruiser,highenergyfocus,18,13500,1250,14500,,750,250,60,40,20,40,20,2000,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,175,240,275,375,10,37.5,15,85000,
Gintama,gintama,Pocket Cruiser,fortressshield,17,12500,1100,13500,,725,150,65,45,25,45,25,1850,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,145,220,275,375,10,37.5,10,75000,
Altima,altima,Advanced Cruiser,highenergyfocus,16,11000,950,12500,,675,225,70,50,30,45,25,1700,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,120,200,275,375,10,37.5,10,65000,
Santanamo,santanamo,Cruiser,drone_pd,15,10500,950,11000,,675,225,75,55,35,50,30,1625,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,120,200,275,375,10,37.5,10,55000,
Aerith,aerith,Light Cruiser,burndrive,15,9750,875,9750,,650,200,80,60,40,60,40,1000,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,120,200,275,375,10,37.5,10,52500,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Shibusen,shibusen,Advanced Heavy Destroyer,highenergyfocus,14,7250,750,7500,,625,120,65,45,25,30,20,600,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,80,120,140,200,7.5,30,5,45000,
Shinda,shinda,Advanced Destroyer,fortressshield,12,5750,600,6250,,500,150,75,70,45,45,20,475,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,60,120,150,275,10,27.5,10,35000,
Taiyou,taiyou,Light Carrier,drone_pd,10,5500,575,5500,,350,150,50,45,35,40,20,475,OMNI,220,0.2,0.8,,,80,140,225,125,5,50,30,32500,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Feather,feather,Gunship,displacer,8,2500,375,3750,,350,75,120,100,120,80,100,425,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,50,100,60,40,1,40,4,30000,
Artemis,artemis,Heavy Frigate,fortressshield,7,2150,375,3500,,325,50,120,100,120,80,100,375,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,40,80,60,40,1,40,4,27500,
Tornado,tornado,Frigate,displacer,6,1950,225,3000,,275,50,155,125,225,100,150,225,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,10,20,25,25,1,25,3,22500,
Whirlwind,whirlwind,Frigate,displacer,6,1950,225,3000,,275,50,155,125,225,100,150,225,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,10,20,25,25,1,25,3,22500,
Darius,darius,Frigate,drone_sensor,5,1575,175,2500,,225,50,200,150,225,175,150,200,OMNI,220,0.2,0.8,,,10,20,25,25,1,25,3,17500,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Masaki,masaki,Heavy Fighter,,,650,125,1000,,175,,125,150,175,150,200,30,OMNI,120,0.2,0.8,,,,,,,,,,,
Aeon,aeon,Missile Bomber,,,475,100,500,,100,,150,100,150,150,200,25,OMNI,120,0.2,1,,,,,,,,,,,
Evony,evony,torpedo Bomber,,,350,75,500,,100,,100,100,100,100,200,15,OMNI,120,0.2,1,,,,,,,,,,,
Code,code,Interceptor,,,200,50,100,,100,,250,225,250,150,225,5,NONE,,,1,,,,,,,,,,,
[close]

Any pointers there? il gladly change the values further, they are up against the factions in Uomoz Corvus right now for testing. and i'm telling you =I some of those factions are not balanced properly. lotus conglomerate for example crushes every single fleet, modded or otherwise, but i think that's just his fleet sizes, because the ships are rather balanced themselves.

EDIT: noticed that some of the ships had to much hull and flux, so I've lowered them all. better now?
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: etherealblade on October 10, 2013, 04:40:00 AM
Thank you for this wonderful contribution.! I needed this for my future mod. I love OP stuff...but...even I get bored of that, so this is the best medicine to bring life and challenge back to the game!
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: Trylobot on October 15, 2013, 01:06:41 PM
ValkyriaL, balancing a faction is not a task that you can just shove onto others at the bottom of someone else's thread. It's a major, work-intensive task that takes great patience and care. And it is never finished.

If you think you are done balancing, then you are certainly not done balancing. If you think you are not done balancing, you are doing it right. It's just this ongoing battle of constant small tweaking. You can only get closer and closer, but you never really get it 100% there.

Hell, look at Blizzard. And they've got staffers whose entire job it is to balance units.
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: phyrex on October 15, 2013, 02:12:52 PM
When was the last time this program was updated ?
Cause im wondering which one of this or codex would be best suited for balancing my mod and im kinda confused
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: ValkyriaL on October 15, 2013, 09:34:29 PM
ValkyriaL, balancing a faction is not a task that you can just shove onto others at the bottom of someone else's thread. It's a major, work-intensive task that takes great patience and care. And it is never finished.

If you think you are done balancing, then you are certainly not done balancing. If you think you are not done balancing, you are doing it right. It's just this ongoing battle of constant small tweaking. You can only get closer and closer, but you never really get it 100% there.

Hell, look at Blizzard. And they've got staffers whose entire job it is to balance units.

Its just that, that comment is like 10 months old or more and i didn't know better back then =) my faction is far from done in the balancing department, and it will take the rest of my time here to get them so. ::)
Title: Re: Ship BalanceSuite 5000 v1.6
Post by: Trylobot on October 17, 2013, 10:38:40 AM
Oh! I apologize Valk, I hopped into the thread because there was activity but didn't notice how old the comment I read actually was on its own. My bad!