Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: dgchessman2 on December 25, 2021, 06:44:39 AM
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Hey guys
I've seen the forum and FAQ talk about Steam greenlighting, and while the newest information on Steam percentages and Epic Games (1 year) Exclusive contracts is promising... that wouldn't really fix anything, would it?
Everything that I can see that needs work in Starsector (and let's be clear, I LOVE this game!) requires fundamental work!
The Map and Intel tabs especially need intense work.
There are glaring holes in the data the player receives, and their ability to plan/process. The alternative is the easy-to-access Battle Simulator, but in a way that's a loose, time-consuming, colloquial solution.
Graphics support are so archaic as to be nearly impossible.
Umm... multithreading anyone?
I could throw down suggestions. Real, honest, shiny suggestions. For instance... I bet that your Battle Simulator use could be cut in half or more by having a dedicated window in the outfitter that shows your ship fighting with the weapons as you're equipping them. Don't want to list or standardize projectile speeds? Want to see how those fighters are actually gonna behave? You only need a few seconds glance to process that info.
There's so, so many of these things....
..... so I'm just gonna come out and say it: Fractal Software 2.0 - Electric Boogaloo
I'm serious. Yes, actually.
Look, this game is NOT an 'alpha'. It's got all the polish that it needs. It fills a niche that isn't really filled elsewhere.
SO GO TALK TO PARADOX, or KLEI, HOODED HORSE, or whomever you NEED to!
There's ONLY one way forward, and that's the actual game framework. Time is only going to stress that frame more and more and more.
And I don't mean re-invention. I mean go all Rimworld, get your team together, get a publisher, SHOW them the work that's already done, angle towards your Epic Game Store 1 year exclusive (I don't like them, but... I understand the assurances they offer are helpful as a Dev)... and don't make Starsector 2.0... make Starsector under a new and reformed Studio. GET the manpower you need! Have a kickstarter if you really don't think you can afford the assets.
But.... the game itself is REALLY to be pitched. It's beyond ready!
So take it to PAX and put it on the main expo hall.
~PLEASE!!
Modders will help gleefully if you GIVE them a framework to work under. If you give them a weapon template that includes all those missing things that are hard to make happen under the current ui.
And THEN you can focus entirely on a system of psionic skills that are only given by Fallen Space Empires!
I see pages and pages of 'suggestions', and one forum post after another about limitations.
We need this.
Starsector needs this!
Hell, even if you just ASKED for volunteers, I'm sure that help would come pouring in! Whatever path you want to take... just please get Starsector ready for 2021, modern graphics cards, the ability to bind mouse buttons, flexible UI, and... let's not say this TOO loud... Steam Workshop?
Or, another way to put it:
Please, please, please take my money.
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The TL:DR of my response : Nope!
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Just wait for Starsector 2.
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Just wait for Starsector 2.
We'll obviously get Starsector Remastered before that, come on let's act serious here guys.
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Imagine claiming a game with a barely implemented story and no end-game has enough polish.
Really begs what the state of the industry is like (looking at you, EA).
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Imagine claiming a story with a barely implemented story and no end-game has enough polish.
Really begs what the state of the industry is like (looking at you, EA).
**cackles** Imagine thinking this is a story/progression game!
As a sandbox, this is beyond amazing! And... oh look! It's right there in the game description!
"Starsector is a single-player sandbox style space role-playing game with strategic elements."
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Imagine claiming a story with a barely implemented story and no end-game has enough polish.
Really begs what the state of the industry is like (looking at you, EA).
looking at you Tod.
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No, Nien, Nyet, No, Non, No! Game already has basically every steam has to offer (except mod market and perhaps further exposure via Steam marketing), all with a significantly lower cut=lower price. Game would have to cost between $19-$22.50 American if on Steam, plus would have to generate a crazy amount of keys for basically every player that has bought a copy of game. Epic Store has same issue (heck, I've seen a few games double dip and do Epic Store, then to Steam Store). Fractalsoftworks seems to be doing just fine (although they pay website is kinda hilariously late 90s/early 00s!). Also, don't suggest Paradox as a publisher, that company has some serious corporate ownership issues, especially when corporate leans on the subsidiary game studios (though I am admittedly prolly biased against Paradox, but still, check out some of the recent Paradox controversies, very entertaining). I mean, game could have always gone Patreon route, which it appears to have purposefully avoided (dunno why, but the Patreon model of game development is, IMO, a recipe for infinite design, and little production, games being developed on Patreon never seem to get delivered...).
As for other suggestions, well, this game is arguably in beta now since it so close to 1.0... but game isn't even finished and you want a sequel? Patience ain't just a virtue, it's a necessity sometimes!
Or, another way to put it:
Please, please, please take my money.
Pretty sure the game already did if you on these forums...
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No, Nien, Nyet, No, Non, No! Game already has basically every steam has to offer (except mod market and perhaps further exposure via Steam marketing), all with a significantly lower cut=lower price. Game would have to cost between $19-$22.50 American if on Steam, plus would have to generate a crazy amount of keys for basically every player that has bought a copy of game. Epic Store has same issue (heck, I've seen a few games double dip and do Epic Store, then to Steam Store). Fractalsoftworks seems to be doing just fine (although they pay website is kinda hilariously late 90s/early 00s!). Also, don't suggest Paradox as a publisher, that company has some serious corporate ownership issues, especially when corporate leans on the subsidiary game studios (though I am admittedly prolly biased against Paradox, but still, check out some of the recent Paradox controversies, very entertaining). I mean, game could have always gone Patreon route, which it appears to have purposefully avoided (dunno why, but the Patreon model of game development is, IMO, a recipe for infinite design, and little production, games being developed on Patreon never seem to get delivered...).
As for other suggestions, well, this game is arguably in beta now since it so close to 1.0... but game isn't even finished and you want a sequel? Patience ain't just a virtue, it's a necessity sometimes!
Or, another way to put it:
Please, please, please take my money.
Pretty sure the game already did if you on these forums...
I think you need to read that again, my friend. I'm not at ALL suggesting a sequel.
Right now Starsector is in a Content Update phase, and has been for quite a while. That's great and all... but as those years slip by, it's more than just their payment page that's getting aged.
They need to get Starsector 1.0 out of Java Runtime, utilizing modern processors and video cards properly, and a major UI update (or at least the framework) so that modders can ALSO add to the content updates. The example, again, is Rimworld. Vanilla is.... okay. Modded, it's epic.
Do I want them to go Paradox / Epic / Kickstarter / etc. to make it happen? No.
Do I want to wait another 3 years for Starsector 1.0 to finally come out... and quietly whither on vine because it's another 3 years out-of-touch with modern hardware? No.
We can't mod out these problems.
It'll take TIME, manpower, publishing power, etc. to go back and get all of that caught back up to modern gaming.
That means SOME sort of payroll scheme or another.
A studio of half a dozen people working full-time.
I'll keep my Starsector: Legacy around.
But I'd pay full-price again to have it using all the cores on my processor, and utilizing even... ***... more than 10% of my RAM or graphics power?!?
Only way I see that happening is if Starsector 1.0 doesn't just get a quiet release on a quite, personal site.
Game content can be 100% identical. No changes.
But everything about the underlying engine, coding, UI, integration, and accessibility for modders needs to get into the 2000's
Let's face it: It's currently stuck somewhere more akin to EV: Nova than it is anything else..... which was published 20 years ago.
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As part of those who mod the game, your comments on what's "needed" for accessibility feel both uninformed and insulting.
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As for other suggestions, well, this game is arguably in beta now since it so close to 1.0... but game isn't even finished and you want a sequel?
I think you need to read that again, my friend. I'm not at ALL suggesting a sequel.
I guess in retrospect you weren't, but suggesting "Fractal Software 2.0 - Electric Boogaloo" is kinda ambiguous, which I hastily interpreted as a sequel. You don't 2.0 a company/corporation/business. You either change the business name but keep the same old schtick, or merge/get acquired (unless you are suggesting a pivot due to market changes, but dunno how one pivots a game). Google to Alphabet, Facebook to Meta, Phillip Morris to Altria, etc. But one shouldn't assume that staffing up automatically equals a better business. Especially if a business isn't trying to scale. Sometimes the best solution is to not scale. Not claiming to be anti-capitalism or anything, but just because something isn't growing one shouldn't assume it's stagnating.
Also, anything 2: Electric Boogaloo is kind of a charged phrase politically right now in some countries, might be better to avoid using that as metaphor next time... not that I have any reason to care about someone's politics, but peeps be crazy these days.
They need to get Starsector 1.0 out of Java Runtime, utilizing modern processors and video cards properly, and a major UI update (or at least the framework) so that modders can ALSO add to the content updates. The example, again, is Rimworld. Vanilla is.... okay. Modded, it's epic.
That's assuming they want to update stuff. It has been stated on multiple occasions that game design compromises have been make to allow game to run on low-budget systems, if only to expand customer base. Unless Java Runtime is gonna be depreciated sometime soon, why reinvent wheel?
But everything about the underlying engine, coding, UI, integration, and accessibility for modders needs to get into the 2000's
Let's face it: It's currently stuck somewhere more akin to EV: Nova than it is anything else..... which was published 20 years ago.
Perhaps some people are playing it specifically for the nostalgia (really not EV anything, since it not one ship, it's a campaign layer and a battle layer; I would say more Sid Meier's Pirates! than EV series, but obvious EV was in space, Pirates! wasn't).
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Right now Starsector is in a Content Update phase, and has been for quite a while. That's great and all... but as those years slip by, it's more than just their payment page that's getting aged.
They need to get Starsector 1.0 out of Java Runtime, utilizing modern processors and video cards properly, and a major UI update (or at least the framework) so that modders can ALSO add to the content updates.
That sounds like remaking the game from the ground up; either because it has to be done, or just to be sure stuff doesn't break when unexpected.
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As part of those who mod the game, your comments on what's "needed" for accessibility feel both uninformed and insulting.
I mean... you gotta pick one.
You can either have:
a) What you've got now, and a forum FULL of hacks, config edits, and ways to work around the limitations of the game engine/framework/UI
b) A different game engine/framework/UI, which costs money
I guess I used the term 2.0 because the business model itself would have to change. It would need to stop being a passion project, working with what is most accessible, and transition into something intentionally made.
That means a Publisher. I'm sorry, it's so, so difficult to get the proper engine, the proper assets, and (most people prefer) the pre-made framework ready so that you can spend as little time getting the new engine ready, and as much time as possible getting the old material moved into the new gilded frame.
That's going to require a biiiiigggg leap of faith. And, yeah, in a lot of ways it IS a new game. A remastering. I don't see ANY reason for the Starsector-that-is to go away!
But the hardware and software limitations are more than just not aging well.
...by the time we get around to 1.0 release, it's going to be PLAGUED with optimization problems! Which, by itself, will take a LOT of the groundswell of bringing out of private development! Maybe even ALL of it. Because an Indie game with mixed reviews is... painful.
Case and point: Endless Sky
It's got all the retro
It's got the mods
It's got the Steam
It's got the updates
It's got the 90% positive ratings
...it's got 5,000 reviews, give or take.
That's... not enough. It trips over its own limitations.
It's got mods, but they aren't in the Workshop.
It's got updates, but you have to retrieve them privately.
It's got the positive rating, but it LOOKS like it's abandonware.
It's not, but it LOOKS like that.
So, cautionary tale, I guess?
Because even if the current version of the game was 30% improved in terms of performance, memory usage, etc...
.... that would still fall short of anything made in the last 10 years. And it's not getting any younger.
I say all of this because I WANT Starsector to succeed! I want the Dev to be able to focus on his expansions, and get the recognition and sales this game richly deserves.
But just... going 1.0 isn't going to make that happen.
Does it NEED to do this? No. Of course not.
But where do we go from v0.96.3c ...?
Or v0.99.27hf2...? Or v1.13.2? Or, or, or...?
This game has reached Kenshi status.
It's gone as far as the hardware is going to take it.
You can expand the story, but everything you add just bites deeper into those hardware caps.
Maybe I'm wrong ^_^ Who am I? I mean... besides Jean Valjean.
But I've walked the Indie booths of PAX for the last decade.
Seen good games live or die based on dumb things like this.
Watched games pimp, and beg, and hire showgirls, even park a Bugatti in front of their booth, and STILL fall flat on their face because the changes necessary were fundamental.
They'd already lost before they arrived. Before the marketing meeting where somebody thought that a car would sell a space game. Before even finding a publisher.
We don't have to worry about 'a game that runs on older hardware', 'cause we've already got that! **laughs** It's not getting MORE compatible with OLDER hardware.
It's just getting less compatible with newer hardware.
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Oh, um >_> Just to clarify!
I don't know anything about using the phrase 'electric boogaloo' in any political sense. That seems... odd.
I mean it purely in the "Breakin' 2: Electric Boogaloo" sense. Which is to say... the inevitable, poorly received sequel trope
"The subtitle "Electric Boogaloo", originally a reference to a funk-oriented dance style of the same name, has entered the popular culture lexicon as a snowclone nickname to denote an archetypal sequel."
And while Java isn't exactly going out of service/style... the game isn't using even the entirety of what Java can do! Not even fully utilizing Java alone is sorta setting the stage for how a 1.0 release is going to get received on any major platform.
And lastly: Epic Game Store has shaken up the industry getting their Epic Game Store Exclusive titles, with generous terms for the Developer, AND money forwarded ahead of time to help fuel their work. It doesn't STAY exclusive, and after a year is open to be hosted on other sites like Steam.
That ONLY exists because of how freakishly profitable Fortnite turned out to be. They're seeding out that money to draw games in! They're INCENTIVISING the exact thing that Starsector needs incentivized! That piece of the development that's just... a bit too expensive to pay for out-of-pocket. That hurdle that's just a bit too tall, but if you had a bit of a nest egg...
I don't assume that offer will stay open forever.
Steam Greenlight? Bah. I mean, you could... it just doesn't come with any of the perks.
Wear the 'Epic Game Store Exclusive' teeshirt for a year, use it as the 'early access' phase where the game gets out into the mainstream market. BUT! If you don't have any ROOM to improve based on feedback... then the whole exercise is futile.
And I'm not even talking about stuff on the FAQ page **LAUGHS** I'm just talkin'... Starsector. As close to what it is right now as possible.
.... except the UI. Holy hell the UI needs a lotlotlot of work to be ready to be released into the wild.
Don't believe me?
Seed out some copies to Streamers.
NOT strategy eggheads like us... just normal streamers and influencers.
Get their HONEST feedback.
I bet you money you're going to get back a list of things that either won't happen (multiplayer, etc) or can't happen because of engine/code limitations.
A long list.
... so.... **shrugs** ... be proactive?
See, I've ALSO walked the booths and shook hands with the single Dev at DeadToast. Told him how excellent it was. And he told me a little story about how he got this corner of the Expo hall. Somebody saw what he had, and pitched in the money to make that Main Hall demo happen. He didn't have any of the means, but he HAD a good product.
Set up the screens. Worked the lines himself. Let people play.
Less than a month later, My Friend Pedro hits Steam like a tsunami.
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Thats just not true. Starsector's modding is exceptionally clean compared to most other games. In terms of config edits, there is a single thing that needs to be changed with a basic text editor on heavily modded games (its not even needed for the first 10 or so) and that is literally it. There's not a forum full of hacks, just easy to download mods/libraries, a Q&A section, and a thriving mod community (seriously have you seen the mod listing page or the discord chat channel on modding? and thats just the english language mods!). Meanwhile the vast majority (all but like 3) of those mods all work perfectly together with no mod load order needed, no memory conflicts, and no need to mess around.
The game is so easy to use mods with that, even though there have been 2 or 3 good community mod managers including Nexus, most people don't even bother to use them because its not needed.
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And lastly: Epic Game Store has shaken up the industry getting their Epic Game Store Exclusive titles, with generous terms for the Developer, AND money forwarded ahead of time to help fuel their work. It doesn't STAY exclusive, and after a year is open to be hosted on other sites like Steam.
That ONLY exists because of how freakishly profitable Fortnite turned out to be. They're seeding out that money to draw games in! They're INCENTIVISING the exact thing that Starsector needs incentivized! That piece of the development that's just... a bit too expensive to pay for out-of-pocket. That hurdle that's just a bit too tall, but if you had a bit of a nest egg...
Epic is totally full of ****, they just got lucky with Fortnite (I mean, the game originally was a tower defense game, Battle Royale was practically an accident). Epic's real product is Unreal Engine. But if you think they have player's interest in mind, why did they sue Apple store and just get laughed out of court for the lawsuit? Epic doesn't give a **** about players any more than Valve does...
Don't believe me?
Seed out some copies to Streamers.
NOT strategy eggheads like us... just normal streamers and influencers.
Get their HONEST feedback.
What Sseth's video wasn't enough for you? Did it ever occur to you that maybe the devs are deliberately NOT distributing copies to streamers until they feel that the game is basically ready for release? Because streamers are as about as normal a player as "strategy eggheads." And arguably this game isn't necessarily a strategy game, but that is a debate for another time. As for influencers... ROFLOLOHAHAHAHLOL!!! Good joke dude!
... so.... **shrugs** ... be proactive?
Considering how much time the devs spend on these forums, they are DEFINITELY proactive. Proactively improving their product, I might add, not selling out to the man for a quick buck... When game is good and ready, then I'm sure they'll "sell out." But stop confusing a labor of love with a product to be punted! Man, more peeps just need to watch Silicon Valley, I guess. Small software business includes small game companies...
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As part of those who mod the game, your comments on what's "needed" for accessibility feel both uninformed and insulting.
I mean... you gotta pick one.
You can either have:
a) What you've got now, and a forum FULL of hacks, config edits, and ways to work around the limitations of the game engine/framework/UI
b) A different game engine/framework/UI, which costs money
A! A! A-A-A-A-A!
A by a landslide. Literally everything about the game is accessible, provided Alex gives us access, all of it is in the same coding language, and for surface level content not even that is needed.
Not seeing any hacks though?
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Thats just not true. Starsector's modding is exceptionally clean compared to most other games. In terms of config edits, there is a single thing that needs to be changed with a basic text editor on heavily modded games (its not even needed for the first 10 or so) and that is literally it. There's not a forum full of hacks, just easy to download mods/libraries, a Q&A section, and a thriving mod community (seriously have you seen the mod listing page or the discord chat channel on modding? and thats just the english language mods!). Meanwhile the vast majority (all but like 3) of those mods all work perfectly together with no mod load order needed, no memory conflicts, and no need to mess around.
The game is so easy to use mods with that, even though there have been 2 or 3 good community mod managers including Nexus, most people don't even bother to use them because its not needed.
...I think this may have been taken the wrong way.
I'm not suggesting that Starsector modding is somehow... wrong... or unclean...
But if I google 'Starsector performance issues' or 'Starsector video card issues' or 'Starsector RAM issues' or...
... I get YEARS of the same discussions about the same problems and the same answers about what little the end user can do.
A forum 'full' of stuff like this was the wrong phrasing. It's full in the sense of... at capacity. You can't have the same graphical / RAM limitations with forum posts going back 6 years! Or even further!
We're supposed to be close to 1.0! There isn't room for that kind of unresolved limitations on modern hardware, because hardware isn't going to go retro to accommodate Starsector, and nobody is going to yank out their GTX5000 to drop in any older card.
Robust community. Great forums. Nice people.
.... lots, and lots of unresolved hardware limitations that come up over and over again.
And I'm not suggesting that somehow updating the engine being used or assets utilized is going to make modding easier. That also seems to have gotten lost in translation.
It's great that it's accessible! And everything WE HAVE ACCESS TO works great!
That's the key phrase.
Some things just can't be modded out.
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See? I'm not going at this from the Modder angle.
And I'm not even going at this from a Player angle.
I'm trying hard to look at this from the Development angle.
What modders have access to is fantastic.
... but I also have seen how far modding can go. Skyrim, Rimworld, Stellaris. While these games are DRASTICALLY different and I'm in NO WAY suggesting some sort of easy fix/parallel/etc, I'm simply pointing out that EVERYTHING, including the things that work so fantastically ('cause they really do) are STILL limited by the same Java restrictions.
Hell, guys. I can't even have a missile button. None of us can.
We get Fire, Shield, and Change Weapon Group.
Why? It's hardcoded. End of the line.
If all that is wanted is to quietly wrap up to 1.0 and maybe flesh out some story? None of my suggestions will help or apply.
Totally useless, pointless, etc.
But this game CAN'T BE MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN IT ALREADY IS. It's stuck.
Kenshi is the perfect example!
Robust modding, great concept... paralyzed by engine limitations.
They're gonna do Kenshi 2. Cool on them. That seems a bit extreme, but it works for them.
They HAVE to. There's no working around it.
With 1.0 so close... it seems like a good time to mention that we're not ever gonna GET to v1.5
There's no room for expansion without banging heads on those hardware limitations.
Over and over and over.
Every. Single. Time. The. Game. Is. Played.
That isn't going to GET better.
Why are the controls so restricted? Because Java
Why is the UI so bad? Because Java
Why is the memory usage so horrible? Because Java
Why do I get memory leak warnings? Because working around Java issues.
Why does my framerate and idle suddenly drop to basically nothing, but my system is utilizing a SINGLE core, and less than 20% of the allocated 8 gigs of RAM?
Because Java.
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Kenshi is the perfect example!
Robust modding, great concept... paralyzed by engine limitations.
They're gonna do Kenshi 2. Cool on them. That seems a bit extreme, but it works for them.
They HAVE to. There's no working around it.
I dunno if Kenshi is the best example, it is basically a completed game. But at least is is an example. And not "gonna do Kenshi 2." They are literally doing it right now, as we speak (or would be if it was holidays, but perhaps some are literally working as I type this). But yeah, that game does have some significant issues with underlying Havok physics engine, although I dunno if that is Havok Devs fault or Kenshi Devs. Prolly why they are doing Kenshi 2!
Why are the controls so restricted? Because Java
Why is the UI so bad? Because Java
Why is the memory usage so horrible? Because Java
Why do I get memory leak warnings? Because working around Java issues.
Why does my framerate and idle suddenly drop to basically nothing, but my system is utilizing a SINGLE core, and less than 20% of the allocated 8 gigs of RAM?
Because Java.
I dunno if all of that can be blamed on Java (although I'm less familiar with Java, so maybe that is root source). But memory usage being horrible could be an optimization problem. Memory leaks could be bugs. Utilizing a single core these days? Rimworld commits same sin, really chaps me nethers why Rimworld grinds to a slow crawl instead of utilizing multiple cores (or Stellaris, but dunno if that is a multi-core issue, paradox code seems to be an insane person's artwork sometimes... held together with spit, poop, bailing wire and duct tape...).
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It's cool to be perfectly happy with where the game is at.
But when I play, I see features spliced in.
I see duplicate screens and tabs.
I see a UI that desperately needs a total overhaul.
When I'm making a ship loadout, a lot of the MOST important answers I need aren't easily available.
...I've gotta drop into the Simulation Mode a half dozen times to really get a feel for it.
Because 'fast' isn't actually a projectile speed. And 'poor' doesn't tell me if the spread is going to be useful, or crippling.
Because I want to be able to see my Planet info AND my Intel.
And ALL of those things I can roll with. Honestly. I'd love to see them improved.. but I'll play anyways.
But watching my framerate drop to nothing?
Seeing a Video Settings that has... what.... 2 options?
And getting such POOR system performance and optimization out of SUCH a good game?
I have no idea how anyone can be sipping their coffee and saying 'Everything is fine' with flames like that licking at their feet.
Yeah, it'll get to 1.0
Are we gonna see a sales surge? No. Why would we?
And it'll get to 1.1
Is that when it goes viral and the Dev gets the financial recompense that they deserve?
No. Why would they?
The game has made the sales that it's going to make. I'm sure it'll still trickle in over time.
I don't like Epic Game Store one little tiny bit, and I think that viral media is garbage. BUT!
If I set aside my personal dislike, I can see that some of the most fundamental struggles of this game COULD be addressed with a budget.
That Starsector could ABSOLUTELY pull a Valheim, go viral, and sell 23 million copies on 1995 graphics, and OG Laura Croft bodies.
But... not like this.
ALL of those opportunities are locked behind a Paywall
I totally understand if they'd just prefer to wrap up the project.
But dammit.... I'd much rather see Fractal Software 2.0
I'm almost SCREAMING in frustration over here for the Dev to TAKE MY MONEY PLEASE.
I've got over 800 games on Steam. I stream. I review. I do backerkit. I kickstart.
And it's Christmas day. I've got money to drop on a game. Or several.
But it can't be Starsector.
There's just.... nowhere to go without ripping up the floorboards first.
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I'd drop another $30 in a heartbeat to have Fractal become a 4 Employee team.
I'd rush to load Kickstarter and put in $50 to help test the Alpha of an optimized Starsector.
...I'd literally PAY to get to help.
I'm hoping that Starsector 1.3 isn't where this EV: Nova ends its story.
It's nowhere near end-of-life as a game concept.
But there can't BE a fundraiser, or an Exclusive, or an anything if it doesn't come with 'New and Improved' slapped all over it.
Those limitations are built in. And that breaks my heart.
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But watching my framerate drop to nothing?
Seeing a Video Settings that has... what.... 2 options?
And getting such POOR system performance and optimization out of SUCH a good game?
I suspect much of the polish will occur with 0.99f1a6 release... but as for VRAM issues, they are apparently deliberately set low in order to allow more crappy systems to run game/expand customer base. Most experienced players just open the settings JSON and increase VRAM being used (directions are out there, but prolly have to Google for them since forum search function not so great). IIRC, game just uses 1 GB, prolly want to pump that up to at least 2 GB, if not more (I run game at 4 GB, allows game to run much longer without VRAM issues). Just remember it's powers of 2 so not 4000, its 4096 (or 2048 or whatever). Although if you put in 2000 or 4000, shouldn't affect game too much...
I'm almost SCREAMING in frustration over here for the Dev to TAKE MY MONEY PLEASE.
I've got over 800 games on Steam. I stream. I review. I do backerkit. I kickstart.
And it's Christmas day. I've got money to drop on a game. Or several.
But it can't be Starsector.
There's just.... nowhere to go without ripping up the floorboards first.
Well, there is that sale on Steam until Jan. 5, got a few games 50% that I have my eyes on (lookin' at you, Cloudpunk!). But I actually have mad respect for devs scruples, they could have gone the Patreon route and milked peeps forever. Instead you pay a flat rate for a product that is deliberately priced low since independently released and don't have to pay distributor. Don't get me wrong, that pay website janky as hell. But unlike some small game studios who cheap out and drop their forums for Discord, these devs actually have respect for their fanbase (plus, kinda need fans to crowdsource bugs). And yes, if you are unaware, I am vehemently opposed to Discord, so maybe I'm biased. In any case, my rants about Discord are for another time and place (but since they about to go public, I see no reason to trust a word that is written in any of their press releases. Discord seed funders/backers want their money back with interest!).
And I was always more of an EV Override kinda guy, just faster to type nova than override...
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I've done all my file edits. I'm still getting game slowdowns while the system is using far, far less than even what it has allocated.
That's not even 'optimized'. It doesn't need to use what I'm giving it more efficiently. It needs to actually USE more than 25% of what I've given it!
... I won't go as far as claiming that there is some perfect fix to keep older computers happy. I don't speak Magic Computer Language, and I'm grossly aware of it.
..... but like... isn't the current version of Starsector (or the 1.0) a perfectly-wrapped ode to old hardware?
Like... if you're running this on a potato, or a multimeter or something, you're livin' it UP! AAA Grade Badassdom.
I'm just saying that INSTEAD of moving on to Starsector 2.0, or a new project...
... maybe pull out those limiters you've put in, keep a legacy version available, and see how awesome the game could be with REAL ACTUAL GRAPHICS SETTINGS!
I'm a big fan of tooltips... but how about tooltip .gifs? Or tooltip videos?
Popup menus? A draggable popout window for my inventory? Utilizing a second screen?
And I KNOW that if you give modders more to work with, they'll jump all over it.
So... start brining in Modder content as Official, and stop having to come up with the ideas.
There's SO much content AVAILABLE.
If the game was CAPABLE of utilizing the tools.
And yeah, Patreon... ehh... that's one of the few things I won't buy into.
I'm glad they haven't milked it, or abandoned it.
I far more than just appreciate the work already done.
But everything has a cost.
Be it money-up-front.
Paid Expansions.
Exclusives.
...or severe graphics limitations.
If I were them, I'd finish Starsector Java Edition, and I'd start working on Starsector 1.0 (Now with God Rays!).
I'd make Starsector Java Edition free, or drop it down to $5. Give current owners a discount on the new effort/progress.
Find a small studio to team up with like DeadToast or Pavonis. Ahhh, no no, I've got it! Honestly they need to hook up with the Trese Brothers.
You guys would get along like a house on fire! And the Trese Brothers products and work ethic are just.... stellar.
Take the leap.
And if you've gotta get assurances, downpayments, whatever... get that Kickstarter going. Start offering pre-sales. Sign a bloody sellout contract if that's the ONLY way to make it happen!
Starsector deserves to actually utilize more than one core before it dies. ^_~
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This posting is going in so many directions I'm not sure what the specific mappings for proposal -> expected result are. Or even the claims being made.
Maybe you should slow down and order your thoughts for writing?
A few points in no particular order:
- Claiming in first post the game has "all the polish that it needs", then saying later that the "UI needs a lotlotlot of work to be ready to be released into the wild"
- Switching to a non-Java engine would not in itself fix the UI or the controls, or make them more moddable (this claim alone leads me to a strong suspicion that technical solutions are being proposed without the proposer understanding their benefits and drawbacks). What it would do, barring a fully functional Java wrapper for the mod API, is guarantee the mass extinction of the mod ecosystem.
- My own impression from Steam forums (though you can obviously see the non-representativeness and conflict of interest here) of several games, and elsewhere is that: On the list of things that will make the gamer base happy about Starsector, Epic exclusivity for any period of time whatsoever is at the bottom.
All that said:
Alex, if you want to modernise the engine and are willing to have a six-month debugging period with the userbase, I may know someone who's gotten the game working on Java 18, with ZGC (the new scalable low-latency garbage collector).
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I've done all my file edits. I'm still getting game slowdowns while the system is using far, far less than even what it has allocated.
That's not even 'optimized'. It doesn't need to use what I'm giving it more efficiently. It needs to actually USE more than 25% of what I've given it!
So you're using JRE 8, the guide to which is pinned in the Discord #modded_gameplay channel and specifically addresses major slowdown caused by using mods, usually triggered after a battle?
I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about with most of your points. Needing old hardware? I'm using a 10th gen Intel and RTX 3000 series laptop GPU and it's generally running at my max, 165fps.
The only thing it runs poorly on is integrated graphics and AMD GPUs, because AMD can't be assed to fix their OpenGL drivers. Would it be great to update to a newer version of Java with a newer version of LWJGL and even switch to Vulcan? Sure. Is it necessary? No.
You might also want to consider how successful Starsector is right now. There's a highly active Discord server, lots of mods that are regularly updated, and Alex is apparently still making enough money to work on it full-time.
And it hasn't been marketed AT ALL. Buying it is a pain, updating it is a pain, it's not on Steam or anything.
I think you are greatly overestimating the impact that having a modern engine would have.
edit: Oh yeah and @Alex in case you weren't aware, a LOT of players are running the game under JRE 8 v271. Linky link here (https://discord.com/channels/187635036525166592/512356777451323393/894702930987466852) to the aforementioned guide. There are rare issues with it, one caused by using very old integrated cards or something, but there is a fix for that that Himemi found.
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There are so many points here, that I simply cannot make time to reply to them all or even really the vast majority of them especially when in a ramble format across multiple posts like that.
But what I will do is address the elephant in the room and ask you two simple questions. What are your system specs, and what is your mod list? I have a feeling knowing that info would be quite enlightening.
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Java causes virtually none of the problems you are experiencing. The old JRE7 might very well be doing that, but I strongly suspect Alex plans to modernize that aspect of the game prior to release.
The old graphics framework, yes, has some issues with modern cards. There are various paths that could be taken to fix this.
Starsector's UI is far more extensive than most small-team indie games and, despite that, a lot better than most of them. It doesn't hold up compared to some AAA or large indie studio products, but that's because those teams are organized from the beginning for dedicated UX engineers working in parallel with everyone else. And even then, they *** it up quite often.
Your proposals would, as you imply, necessitate a complete reorganization of the company and team and basically a total do-over of the game's development. Alex repeatedly refused to do this earlier on for, amongst many reasons, budget concerns, but even now his primary reason to avoid this is that he simply wouldn't enjoy it. Running that kind of team means that you can't really do much development yourself. That's just the reality of management.
Even supposing that Alex were willing to hand over the reins, now would be an awful time to do so, with the original game nearly feature-complete. Perhaps a follow-up title can go in such a direction, but certainly not Starsector.
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The old graphics framework, yes, has some issues with modern cards. There are various paths that could be taken to fix this.
Starsector's UI is far more extensive than most small-team indie games and, despite that, a lot better than most of them. It doesn't hold up compared to some AAA or large indie studio products, but that's because those teams are organized from the beginning for dedicated UX engineers working in parallel with everyone else. And even then, they *** it up quite often.
Your proposals would, as you imply, necessitate a complete reorganization of the company and team and basically a total do-over of the game's development. Alex repeatedly refused to do this earlier on for, amongst many reasons, budget concerns, but even now his primary reason to avoid this is that he simply wouldn't enjoy it. Running that kind of team means that you can't really do much development yourself. That's just the reality of management.
Even supposing that Alex were willing to hand over the reins, now would be an awful time to do so, with the original game nearly feature-complete. Perhaps a follow-up title can go in such a direction, but certainly not Starsector.
Ahh, see? This is good. Cuts right to the heart of things.
Am I oversimplifying that Java is the root of everything? >_> Yeah... I'm definitely doing that. Apologies.
I definitely understand WHY he didn't! I even respect it. On a PERSONAL level he's got creative control. It is at-his-will.
So if this is where Starsector as we know it stops? Okay. That works.
I'd be pleased to know that a new, updated, shiny Starsector was in the works. Do I expect it? Noooope!
Would it burn him out? Take him in other directions? Maybe. Getting a team together is always going to be a challenge. And if he doesn't have the confidence in those people... that just might not be in the cards. So then... perhaps Starsector stops here, and picks up when it picks up.
.... I just... I don't WANT Starsector 2 **laughs** And I know that's specific.
Graphics
Gameplay
Overall Mission
Diversity of Mods
These are all solid in my book.
But I don't think that these fixes/compromises are going to happen while the plane is still in the air.
I could be wrong.
And, in all likelihood, the game will round-out, stay small, and stay happy ^__^
Again, I just WISH that Fractal 2.0 was an option, rather than Starsector 1.2, or Starsector 2.
Doesn't mean it's a reasonable want. I wish he was able to BE excited, and be around people who were excited about it.
But it's Christmas, dammit! **laughs** Let me wish a little...
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But it's Christmas, dammit! **laughs** Let me wish a little...
Just wish reasonably. Think ponies, not unicorns...
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There are so many points here, that I simply cannot make time to reply to them all or even really the vast majority of them especially when in a ramble format across multiple posts like that.
But what I will do is address the elephant in the room and ask you two simple questions. What are your system specs, and what is your mod list? I have a feeling knowing that info would be quite enlightening.
**sighs** Really?
Do we really NOT see dozens of posts of folks posting blazing fast computers, and perfectly reasonable mod specs?
Do we not look at the CPU monitoring and RAM allocation and see it charted at 30% (until it hits a memory leak!)?
... and that's it not utilizing the resources it's got!
...but...
.....this is the internet.....
*deeper sigh**
I've got Starsector on the same drive I run Roguetech on. So that's a 1TB Nand drive, so that's 7 gig a second read, and 5 gig a second writing. And that's got a 48 gig page file. Because... Roguetech.
32 gigs of DDR4 No clever clock speeds. Nothing burned out. I haven't licked the contacts in at least a week to try and make it go faster. RAM should be good, da?
Config file to utilize 8 gigs. Downloaded from the help links rather than modified myself.
And my whooole mod list, huh?
Using the Starsector Mod Manager to make sure everything stays up-to-date.
...none of this has anything to do with the most current version... because nothing that I've mentioned is a NEW problem...
BUT ANYWAYS!! Nerd cred, I guess...?
An oddly uncomfortable link of my mod list.
....feels like somebody peeking through my window to make sure I'm what I say I am...
Any other credibility hoops I can jump through while we're at it?
OH!! RIGHT.
Watercooled GTX2080, and an i7 at 3.7 GHz
Shoe size? Credit record? Social Security Card, and citizenship papers?
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But it's Christmas, dammit! **laughs** Let me wish a little...
Just wish reasonably. Think ponies, not unicorns...
**pouts** But, but!! I want a UNICORN, and I DON'T want to WAIT!
**takes a deep breath and gets ready to belt out my version of I Want It Now!**
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Yes really, I have provided technical support to *thousands* of players. More than anyone else besides Alex himself. And almost every time someone complains of such issues they are a living meme of a poor computer specs (which you still haven't listed) and / or using a hideous number of mods. Often times poorly coded mods that contain memory leaks themselves. If you are getting memory leaks, guess what that tells me? And it isn't java's fault.
Your opinions are based on false information, that is built upon a sample size that is multiple orders of magnitude smaller than mine.
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But it's Christmas, dammit! **laughs** Let me wish a little...
Just wish reasonably. Think ponies, not unicorns...
**pouts** But, but!! I want a UNICORN, and I DON'T want to WAIT!
**takes a deep breath and gets ready to belt out my version of I Want It Now!**
Perhaps you should have chosen your forum name to be Veruca Salt... but at least you're being a good sport about this (if a little long-winded), some peeps just melt down after they get a little criticism on this forum. Not saying they are special snowflakes or anything, but sort of amazing how bent out of shape people get over the internet... I dunno, maybe thin skin is hereditary.
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Yes really, I have provided technical support to *thousands* of players. More than anyone else besides Alex himself. And almost every time someone complains of such issues they are a living meme of a poor computer specs (which you still haven't listed) and / or using a hideous number of mods. Often times poorly coded mods that contain memory leaks themselves. If you are getting memory leaks, guess what that tells me? And it isn't java's fault.
Your opinions are based on false information, that is built upon a sample size that is multiple orders of magnitude smaller than mine.
Need to check my chipset? Bus speeds? If I have Lasso prioritizing processors correctly? My temperature control monitoring?
Maybe my processor has come unglued from my power supply.
...
......
......... to be clear, that was a joke.
Don't use glue when you can use wood screws, amiright?
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Perhaps you should have chosen your forum name to be Veruca Salt... but at least you're being a good sport about this (if a little long-winded), some peeps just melt down after they get a little criticism on this forum. Not saying they are special snowflakes or anything, but sort of amazing how bent out of shape people get over the internet... I dunno, maybe thin skin is hereditary.
Well, I do appreciate you attending my TED Talk
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Yes really, I have provided technical support to *thousands* of players. More than anyone else besides Alex himself. And almost every time someone complains of such issues they are a living meme of a poor computer specs (which you still haven't listed) and / or using a hideous number of mods. Often times poorly coded mods that contain memory leaks themselves. If you are getting memory leaks, guess what that tells me? And it isn't java's fault.
Your opinions are based on false information, that is built upon a sample size that is multiple orders of magnitude smaller than mine.
Need to check my chipset? Bus speeds? If I have Lasso prioritizing processors correctly? My temperature control monitoring?
Maybe my processor has come unglued from my power supply.
...
......
......... to be clear, that was a joke.
Don't use glue when you can use wood screws, amiright?
If you want to be taken seriously? Stop shitpoasting.
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If you want to be taken seriously? Stop shitpoasting.
Sorry, but I don't know any other way except to fall back on the coping mechanism of morbid humor.
'Cause I Google 'Starsector Idle Spike', and I get posts from 2014, and 2015, and 2016, and...
But by all means, if burying my humor behind a mask of tears will get folks to take the issue SERIOUSLY, then that's a bullet I'm willing to bite.
I never got the whole 'crying on demand' thing down, but I'm willing to tear up a bit if it helps.
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I hope you realize that is a very small sample size right? Meanwhile you are still using a mod list that contains some poorly coded mod(s) that leak memory.
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Did you skip over my post where I proposed a solution, using JRE 8? You didn't mention if you're using that or not.
I also made a performance survey a while ago to try and get some more objective data, if you would like to see: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Tc6hb0nW3AGoxG1cUQPJITwN_SobJphdiYeGxPACwtc/viewanalytics. One of the questions is about framerate.
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Did you skip over my post where I proposed a solution, using JRE 8? You didn't mention if you're using that or not.
I also made a performance survey a while ago to try and get some more objective data, if you would like to see: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Tc6hb0nW3AGoxG1cUQPJITwN_SobJphdiYeGxPACwtc/viewanalytics. One of the questions is about framerate.
Apologies.
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I hope you realize that is a very small sample size right? Meanwhile you are still using a mod list that contains some poorly coded mod(s) that leak memory.
Did you happen to have a handy-dandy list of 'These mods leak memory'...? If you've got a laminate, that would be even better. All I can really use is the sticky from the Dev to go off of.
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=177.0
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I hope you realize that is a very small sample size right? Meanwhile you are still using a mod list that contains some poorly coded mod(s) that leak memory.
Did you happen to have a handy-dandy list of 'These mods leak memory'...? If you've got a laminate, that would be even better. All I can really use is the sticky from the Dev to go off of.
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=177.0
No one does, it is actually quite difficult to pin down. Also why do you keep chain posting? You can quote multiple times in a post :)
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Did you skip over my post where I proposed a solution, using JRE 8? You didn't mention if you're using that or not.
I also made a performance survey a while ago to try and get some more objective data, if you would like to see: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Tc6hb0nW3AGoxG1cUQPJITwN_SobJphdiYeGxPACwtc/viewanalytics. One of the questions is about framerate.
Apologies.
That's the version of Java for your system. Starsector includes its own version and uses that, not the system version.
Here, I'll just post the guide.
- (72 MB .zip) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CGRtnv5hIGCtcdlvZXFO0F58VXqYUo6x/view?usp=sharing
- (48 MB .7z) https://drive.google.com/file/d/155Lk0ml9AUGp5NwtTZGpdu7e7Ehdyeth/view?usp=sharing
<edit>and if it seems like you're being treated like a fool who has to back up everything they say, it's because we've been doing tech support long enough to not trust what people say. so many issues are caused by people who think they've done something, get challenged on it, and then realize they messed it up.</edit>
(https://i.imgur.com/1zHzig5.png)
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I hope you realize that is a very small sample size right?
**sighs** Yes, I realize that's a very small sample size.
...so here's 11 pages of posts off this forum.
Why am I chain posting?
Frustration, if I had to guess.
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Meanwhile most of those issues are from you guessed it. Bad computers / too many mods / poorly coded mods.
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<edit>and if it seems like you're being treated like a fool who has to back up everything they say, it's because we've been doing tech support long enough to not trust what people say. so many issues are caused by people who think they've done something, get challenged on it, and then realize they messed it up.</edit>
I'm not even HALF as frustrated with you, I promise.
... but... it's the principle of the matter!
You just sent me a (very friendly, very well-made) set of instructions on how to mod the game just to get it to..... work properly. Not nosedive.
Because the product, as-shipped...
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Because the product, as-shipped...
is an incomplete product, since in development. But more beta than alpha development now, although colony system is still pretty new all things considered...
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<edit>and if it seems like you're being treated like a fool who has to back up everything they say, it's because we've been doing tech support long enough to not trust what people say. so many issues are caused by people who think they've done something, get challenged on it, and then realize they messed it up.</edit>
I'm not even HALF as frustrated with you, I promise.
... but... it's the principle of the matter!
You just sent me a (very friendly, very well-made) set of instructions on how to mod the game just to get it to..... work properly. Not nosedive.
Because the product, as-shipped...
What you are saying you have to mod stuff to run mods? The horror!
Also a side note, most of the time you don't even have to do this.
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Can we just pause here for a moment, and discuss Financial Success?
Systems like Steam WORK not because of the absurd cut they take, or their creepy algorithms, but because they are freakishly user-friendly. As just about every OTHER game launcher/platform has shown us, it's not enough to just show off the product. It's gotta install, uninstall, and modify with little-to-no thought.
Because Consumers.
We're modders and Players.
The Dev is NEVER going to make the kind of money that Anything 2.0 would require to get moving off of the likes of us.
Doesn't have to be predatory, but... digital keys, 11 hour playtimes, and impulse buys after seeing Markiplier play... these are where the floorboards start to creak.
Both of these things CAN happen at the same time! Those filthy Casuals are also a disgustingly large portion of profits.
I've made sure to mention it several times, but ONE form of payment is the time and effort necessary to "Tech support thousands of players" on a volunteer basis. Slave labor, basically ^_^;; It's one form of cost.
I'd muuuuccchhh rather see the game get the success and sales it deserves.
And even something as simple as the 'basic' modifications we're discussing here are enough to take a fat, wet bite out of that profit margin.
... For no reason more than lack of time/money/commitment.
Maybe Starsector will get to version 1.3 or so, and then go quietly into the night.
I think that would be a shame.
But rather than just grumble, it seemed like getting down to the rusty issues might be a better use of time.
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Can we just pause here for a moment, and discuss Financial Success?
No, because Starsector was never about that.
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You say all that, while modding SS as a normal end user (and mod maker) is far easier than most games. Meanwhile, Steamworkshop would be an unmitigated disaster making so many problems far worse.
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Also a side note, most of the time you don't even have to do this.
If there was a time... a Golden Age... where these things weren't necessary to make Starsector run smoothly? Smoothly enough to convince somebody to reach into their pocket and swipe their debit card in frightening numbers? I just haven't seen it.
Maybe that magical day is just around the corner, wheels are already in motion, and Starsector v.97.12u has everything allllll squared away.
In that case... please feel free to disregard.
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No, because Starsector was never about that.
I mean... I guess so? He charges money for the game, so... this is more of a negotiation on price and venue, and less of a moral discussion. >_> We're not casting stones, hun. We're haggling.
I use the general rule of "Does it work, does it make you happy, and can you do it without killing others?" as my litmus test for success. So, again... if "...It just works!" (F@CK you Todd Howard) and is the financial success that the Dev always hoped for... then that's definitely above my pay grade, and another product will EVENTUALLY fill in the gap. I can only hope they'll have the same character, morals, and dedication that this Dev has.
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Also a side note, most of the time you don't even have to do this.
If there was a time... a Golden Age... where these things weren't necessary to make Starsector run smoothly? Smoothly enough to convince somebody to reach into their pocket and swipe their debit card in frightening numbers? I just haven't seen it.
Maybe that magical day is just around the corner, wheels are already in motion, and Starsector v.97.12u has everything allllll squared away.
In that case... please feel free to disregard.
Great more shitpoasts. This entire thread is one giant shitpoast, and quite frankly you are tiring. Believe whatever you want to believe, it changes nothing. Not much more I can say, appeal to authority is a bad argument. But I don't have time to actually get down in the nitty gritty because your giant list of fragmented points. So enjoy I guess.
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Great more shitpoasts. This entire thread is one giant shitpoast, and quite frankly you are tiring. Believe whatever you want to believe, it changes nothing. Not much more I can say, appeal to authority is a bad argument. But I don't have time to actually get down in the nitty gritty because your giant list of fragmented points. So enjoy I guess.
All of those prying, personal questions and internet demands to justify my competency before even considering a word coming out of my mouth...
... and you didn't even stay to snuggle. I'm offended! Wounded, even.
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I knew from the first post that your competency level was below zero if that makes you feel any better. The questions were trying to help you, not my fault you ignored most of the points and queries of several people.
Enjoy your *** thread.
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This thread's been going in circles and doesn't seem like it's going to end up anywhere productive, so I'm going to lock it before it gets too much more out of hand.