Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Megas on October 11, 2021, 06:42:09 AM
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Given the massive benefits Safety Override gives Hyperion, it seems like the only reason not to use Safety Override is to nerf Hyperion configurations for enemy NPC fleets (so it cannot jump away if it gets in over its head, and the player can easily swat it).
With Safety Override, the Hyperion can teleport almost at will (needs Systems Expertise to chop the delay down to acceptable) and have enough dissipation to use all three mounts for guns (instead of two guns and a missile).
Trying to pilot Hyperion without Safety Override is an exercise of frustration. It does not take much to build flux up high (it cannot support three guns while under fire), then if I do not have elite Helmsmanship, Hyperion is stuck, and even with elite Helmsmanship, I need to remember to drop shields (and take damage in the process) before teleporting.
Hyperion with Safety Override is much easier to pilot, but without PPT ups, it only has forty-something seconds before it starts ticking PPT down - not enough time! Basically needs specific skills (from Leadership and Combat) to be usable.
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I do. (https://imgur.com/gallery/YJ1e7Qt) Though if I had to use it without skills, I think I would have indeed went for SO.
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The PPT issue is what Hardened Subsystems are for. It still only ends up with about 2 minutes of uptime before you start burning CR%, but it also slows the burn rate of CR% once the PPT has run out.
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I don't even use safety overrides as I prefer to grind down enemy fleets in long slugging matches rather then rapid swarming assaults.
Or at the very least I'll leave those to the strike-craft.
And yes I DO get frequently torpedoed by the luddic path!
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The PPT issue is what Hardened Subsystems are for. It still only ends up with about 2 minutes of uptime before you start burning CR%, but it also slows the burn rate of CR% once the PPT has run out.
You still get very little PPT after Safety Override has its way with Hyperion. Hardened Subsystems would be mostly for slowing CR drain.
The Leadership skills gives much more PPT (and Reliability Engineering from Industry gives some), but again, gets into requiring specific skills to be usable.
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Yes. Not into the very end content yet, so a HMG in the middle flanked by Ion Bursters does me great. Shields up all the way and I can almost literally run through the center of an Ordo alone. Escaping is tricky, yes. I mostly use it to ankle-bite and fracture weakened spots in the enemy line.
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After the nerf of SO not being s-mod anymore, i find it very painful to include it. Like, then SO was an s-mod it was literally on EVERY possible ship given how much it gives for free. And after the nerf SO returned on the state it's supposed to be, on very particular ships like Sunder and Glimmer. There was also SS build on Hyperion and Scarab with many antimatters. In everygame i played, i find it psychologically hard to play a nerfed strategy. So i must to say goodbye to SO Scarabs and Hyperions.
A regular Hyperion doing just fine with officer's piloting skill which you take anyway. And a player can play around it's teleport mechanic even without the red skills. I value PPT the most because i find myself play against core worlds who spam capitals in theirs expeditions.
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I find Hyperion without SO not worth using at all. For what the costs of operating this ship are - both in and outside the battle - its all flash over substance.
WITH SO however it becomes so deadly that there's not much reason to not use the hullmod. 3 of those officered can destroy almost any threat in the game. Of course there's a caveat, that you need to minmax into the required skills so that the ship lasts long enough to do its thing before falling apart. This is probably the biggest problem, as it forces you into a very specific playstyle when using this ship. In my Hyperion run, I had to permanently shelf my Radiant, because out of all skills, the only one I could reasonably afford to drop was Automated Ships (Systems Expertise gives Hyperion more PPT and is a huge boon to lots of other ships, so it stays. Field Repairs isn't going away, as not having to restore a ship every time it gets a D-mod from being randomly blown up in combat is way too much of a QoL to pass up).
Another problem with SO Hyperions is that unless the battle was extremely short, they're already in red CR after just one engagement. If you rely on those and are faced with two engagements back to back - you've got nothing to defend yourself with.
In the end, despite the caveats, the ship is just begging for SO. If you're not committing to that, it's absolutely not worth the hassle. Its destroyer-class stats, sub-destroyer-class weapon mounts and its gimmicky system are not worth the 40% CR per deployment, 30 maintenance cost, and 15 DP, unless maybe to capture a point and then immediately retreat it.
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You again, I remembered you. You are the one who spread lies about how bad hyperion is.
Just admit that, Hyperion best ship in the game and we can move along. I don't know in that world you living there Hyperion weaponry are sub-destroyer.
Fury (a very efficient light cruiser): 15DP, 9000/600 flux, triple the fuel, worsen shield and shield arc
Hyperion: 15DP 8000/500 flux, faster, a frigate therefore can done +20% damage to everything except frigates (wolfpack)
Medusa: 12 DP, 6000/400 flux
Once again, being a frigate it has superior maneuverability, strife speed and acceleration, swarm AI behavior, kiting tactics. The ability to mount machinegun just pushes it further even then firing same amounts of flux as compared ships.
Just yield, dude, you cannot win. You still not provided anything.
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I don't know what kind of extra difficulty people are using that they think the Hyperion requires SO to work. I'm not into [maximum redacted] stuff yet but even for Ordos... elite shield skill, hardened extended shields (screw Salamanders!!) and all the flux stuff you can nab. It's the ultimate Rogue ship. Ions behind shields, ions at engines for when the opfor wants to bump out and think it'll just dip a toe in the water... no sorry you're coming all the way out. I even use mine as a tug sometimes for larger ships I can't efficiently kill - ion spray to flameout and disarm, push them at my line to be disposed of.
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You again, I remembered you. You are the one who spread lies about how bad hyperion is.
Just admit that, Hyperion best ship in the game and we can move along. I don't know in that world you living there Hyperion weaponry are sub-destroyer.
Fury (a very efficient light cruiser): 15DP, 9000/600 flux, triple the fuel, worsen shield and shield arc
Hyperion: 15DP 8000/500 flux, faster, a frigate therefore can done +20% damage to everything except frigates (wolfpack)
Medusa: 12 DP, 6000/400 flux
Once again, being a frigate it has superior maneuverability, strife speed and acceleration, swarm AI behavior, kiting tactics. The ability to mount machinegun just pushes it further even then firing same amounts of flux as compared ships.
Just yield, dude, you cannot win. You still not provided anything.
Not sure what your problem is, but I'd appreciate if you stop that caustic attitude of yours.
Not once did I say a lie in my posts, while you on the other hand are consistently ignoring my arguments.
Even in my previous post here I've openly stated that - yes - Hyperion can be effective, provided you slap SO on it, have all the necessary skills, can afford its high logistics apetite, and are okay with it being unable to fight two full-fledged battles in a row. The last one especially can be a pain in the neck, and makes it mandatory to have some backup warships in your fleet in case you run into two battles and your Hyperions are in the red CR at the moment - else you're helpless.
Got wolfpack tactics and everything else needed? Well, more power to ya - you got a cool strong ship. Would like to use something else than frigate swarm, and/or would like to invest skill points somewhere else than leadership (Automatic Ships maybe)? Tough luck - Hyperion is a flashy useless ship, crippled by all its downsides too much to be practical. It requires putting all your eggs in one basket to be useful.
All of the ships you've mentioned in your comparison can achieve the same exact thing as a non-SO Hyperion, but without wolfpack tactics, for half the maintenance cost and without dropping 40% CR per battle. Especially Medusa, which ironically is faster at running away with its phase skimmer, while non-SO Hyperion cannot use its system without zero-flux engine boost (which even with elite helmsmanship means having to hold fire and drop shield - likely a dangerous move in a situation where you're at high flux and have to flee in the first place).
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I don't know what kind of extra difficulty people are using that they think the Hyperion requires SO to work. I'm not into [maximum redacted] stuff yet but even for Ordos... elite shield skill, hardened extended shields (screw Salamanders!!) and all the flux stuff you can nab. It's the ultimate Rogue ship. Ions behind shields, ions at engines for when the opfor wants to bump out and think it'll just dip a toe in the water... no sorry you're coming all the way out. I even use mine as a tug sometimes for larger ships I can't efficiently kill - ion spray to flameout and disarm, push them at my line to be disposed of.
For the player it is not really about surviving, its about being to jump around willy-nilly like a mad man *** on exposed hull and armor with a cryo blaster. Abusing AI shield facing and delayed shield deployment you can basically ignore shields and go straight for the juice. Without SO you have to drop shields to teleport and that extra second will wear you down quite fast when you got two radiant and fighters flying over you.
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For the player it is not really about surviving, its about being to jump around willy-nilly like a mad man *** on exposed hull and armor with a cryo blaster. Abusing AI shield facing and delayed shield deployment you can basically ignore shields and go straight for the juice. Without SO you have to drop shields to teleport and that extra second will wear you down quite fast when you got two radiant and fighters flying over you.
And that use requires elite Helmsmanship. Without that (and SO), the Hyperion needs to fully vent to zero before it can jump. Even with elite Helmsmanship, dropping shields before jumping is not ideal. SO bypasses that flux or shield management mess.
I tried non-SO Hyperion with guns and ITU, and tried to brawl like a normal warship. Without skills, it did not last long enough (not enough PPT) compared to other ships, and I was better off with those other ships.
Then I tried SO Hyperion, and it played much like it did before this release, except it is tougher and stronger. Only problem, too low PPT without all the PPT up boosts (needs Leadership, Combat, and maybe I2R).
SO loadout I used was Heavy Blaster (anti-armor and good dps), Ion Pulser (EMP), and either HMG or chaingun (cannot remember, but I think chaingun because bypassing shields with unlimited teleport was relatively easy.) Non-SO Hyperion cannot sustain that loadout continuously for very long.
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And that use requires elite Helmsmanship. Without that (and SO), the Hyperion needs to fully vent to zero before it can jump. Even with elite Helmsmanship, dropping shields before jumping is not ideal. SO bypasses that flux or shield management mess.
Which is why I'm worried Hyperion will be nerfed again in the next update. I feel like the whole point of the last changes to phase teleporter was to prevent it from being used to escape when being shot at. In that context, SO almost seems like an exploit, by letting you bypass the zero-flux engine boost requirement.
Would be a damn shame really. Aside from just being plain fun, it actually makes the ship viable.
I tried non-SO Hyperion with guns and ITU, and tried to brawl like a normal warship. Without skills, it did not last long enough (not enough PPT) compared to other ships, and I was better off with those other ships.
Then I tried SO Hyperion, and it played much like it did before this release, except it is tougher and stronger. Only problem, too low PPT without all the PPT up boosts (needs Leadership, Combat, and maybe I2R).
SO loadout I used was Heavy Blaster (anti-armor and good dps), Ion Pulser (EMP), and either HMG or chaingun (cannot remember, but I think chaingun because bypassing shields with unlimited teleport was relatively easy.) Non-SO Hyperion cannot sustain that loadout continuously for very long.
Pretty much agree, even down to the loadout. I used HMG, since Heavy Blaster and Ion Pulser already provide enough anti-armor punch, making Chaingun redundant in DPS department. Chaingun also doesn't have enough burst DPS to be useful in shield-bypass ambush, where as HMG at least provides some flexibility against targets with omni shields and such.
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When I messed around with SO Hyperion when it was all the rage on the forums after 0.95a was released, I found it...sort of lackluster after all the hype. Good if you're killing a single Ordos fleet, but simply doesn't last long enough if you're going after 2 at once for the +500% XP bonus. In which case you'd have to remove SO to make it last long enough, but then it loses a lot of its punch and slipperiness.
The Hyperions basically distract and harass, but don't really have the staying power to absorb a lot of damage. So hammer but no anvil.
Whereas a fleet of Furies, even when adjusted to 20 DP, can handle the same setup just fine. The 2 Ordos fleets die long before the Furies runs out of peak, even without hardened subsystems. They work even better when you have an Onslaught or an Odyssey or a Doom helping them out as the immovable wall which pushes the battle lines toward the enemy spawn point. Maybe Hyperions would work better with a couple of big ships coming along too (back then I was testing pure fleets, i.e. pure Furies with just me in Doom or Aurora), dunno.
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Again, I'm still not at the end game, but I just haven't had a problem with a non-SO Hyperion. Maybe I'll feel differently later. People complain about having to vent, my question is, are you waiting for the cracks to form before exploiting them? Or jumping into fights a frigate (no matter how silly-broken) shouldn't be caught in? It's pretty rare I get caught and can't withdraw enough to jump out.
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Safety overrides also doubles your dissipation which is massive. Basically double the firepower. I run 2x heavy blaster + ion pulser, which would not be feasible without SO. The damage output is so much higher with SO.
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Running out of PPT CR? Just bring two and swap em out? with teleport they retreat within single digit seconds and you can bring on a new one to the front really easily.
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My only question is whether anyone has cracked open game code to determine phase teleport logic when player has targeted a ship? Half the time I try to phase a Hyperion behind a ship, I end up on the wrong side and get smoked... seems way less intuitive to use since there isn't any indicator of where you might end up.
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I thought it teleported to the cursor location? I haven't flown a hyperion in a little while though, so I could be wrong (was flying it right after the update to see how silly frigates had gotten).
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That sounds like he is trying to TP behind but is out of range so he ends up in front because that is the closest spot that is in range? Maybe if you try to TP too much on top of a ship, you could also trigger some logic about where you should end up, but it seems easy to just click behind the ship more.
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Phase Teleporter seems kind of buggy this release; it does not feel the same as in previous releases.
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That sounds like he is trying to TP behind but is out of range so he ends up in front because that is the closest spot that is in range? Maybe if you try to TP too much on top of a ship, you could also trigger some logic about where you should end up, but it seems easy to just click behind the ship more.
Definitely kinda that, but sometimes I phase towards a targeted ship from a flanking position and still end up behind it instead of the other side of it (perhaps because the direction my ship is pointing is towards the back of the targeted ship, but hard to tell if only a few degrees towards back of targeted ship). But if it's only supposed to phase you to where the mouse pointer is (or short of it if too far), an update to the ship's ability description would be nice... since usually when nothing is targeted, phasing just spits you out ahead of wherever ship is pointing at TP max range.
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I'm fairly certain it teleports to your cursor regardless of what direction you are facing or what you have targeted. I thiiiink that your ship will be facing your selected target after you TP though, which can be important.
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I thiiiink that your ship will be facing your selected target after you TP though, which can be important.
It definitely seems to do that correctly and without fail (with a ship targeted). The intention I guess was that you are supposed to always teleport behind the engines of the targeted ship, with Hyperion orientation in firing position. Just too bad if you burning in a different direction than where you end up facing and don't release the correct keys, you fly in the wrong direction... at least game seems to drop all momentum when using teleport, but if you hold the wrong keys down while teleporting, Hyperion sometimes drifts into firing lines if it didn't already teleport into firing line (depending on where it gets spit out and if targeted ship is turning). Could be wrong about dropping momentum (since other phase skip systems seem to preserve it), just hard to test if ship is getting constantly smoked.
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I remember installing accelerated shields and extended shields to help with that, though it can be painful to jump next to enemies with burst PD as its so quick and has decent burst damage.
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Hyperion teleports as close to the cursor as it can. It also seems to face whichever enemy ship is closest to the teleport location. I haven't had issues with facing when engaging, but when jumping around or disengaging, Hyperion can sometimes turn perpendicular to where I actually want to go.
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Yes, it's a top frigate even without extreme builds. Not to mention that wolfpack tactics + energy mastery + cryo blasters/regular blasters means a lot of power in a very mobile and survivable package that can zoom around the battlefield as needed.
Its cost if offset by the fact that you won't have more than one in your fleet since the AI is better at using other ships and there's plenty of ways to offset cr issues.
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Afflictor holds niche as the ultimate assassin frigate for player use uncontested, so I never saw much point in piloting the new Hyperion (other than variety, I guess).
As result, I only use Hyperion as AI ship, and I don't trust AI with SO ships (they never pilot aggressively enough to justify SO).
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AI with SO hyperion is much better than normal SO AI. It uses the TP to get into range, so it doesn't have the issues of normal SO where it takes damage on approach causing it to back off.