Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Blog Posts => Topic started by: Alex on September 24, 2021, 10:53:40 AM

Title: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 24, 2021, 10:53:40 AM
Blog post here (https://fractalsoftworks.com/2021/09/24/of-slipstreams-and-sensor-ghosts/).
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Tartiflette on September 24, 2021, 10:56:15 AM
 :o
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 24, 2021, 10:59:24 AM
Me too, me too.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Tartiflette on September 24, 2021, 11:13:51 AM
Very interesting, I feel this is a perfect time to dig up my old suggestions about having a more scattered colonization layout with small outposts away from the core worlds, because it would make a hell of a lot of sense for the major powers to maintain a security presence at the ends of those slipstreams. Maybe there are a couple ideas in there and the replies that could be worth revisiting?

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13377.0

Also, I hope scavenger fleets make a heavy use of those slipstreams, so that I can setup a toll secure those trade-lines for the greater good.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: RustyCabbage on September 24, 2021, 11:18:21 AM
Slipstreams look extremely cool, and I love reading about the technical details behind implementing them. Also hooray: hyperspace remnants. :p
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Cyan Leader on September 24, 2021, 11:20:53 AM
Well that came out of nowhere. Thank you for making the exploration content more engaging, looking forward to trying it out!
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: megabot on September 24, 2021, 11:24:21 AM
this is poggers indeed, though i do not completely understand - what was that at the start about sensor ghosts being the inspiration?

also apologies for asking butwhen could the update be, maybe?
aside the  fact that this ferature needs to be finalized some(like the skills) are still not completely done

also as a side note, maybe the skill to aquire the instantly jump into hyperspace(forgot what it was called) and the neutrino detector could maybe gain a buff from their respective skill, considering that you can get them for free so the skill essentially "offers less"
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: TheLaughingDead on September 24, 2021, 11:40:39 AM
Something brought up in the blog post is that the Domain cycles are an arbitrary human concept that coincidentally coincides with two independent seasonal cycles of the slipstream (at this current point in time). Couldn't it be explained that seasonal slipstream cycles actually do follow the Domain calendar because they influenced the creation of the Domain cycle calendar? Unless humans came up with the Domain calendar before they discovered hyperspace and slipstream seasons, it could make more sense that they might create/organize their interstellar empire's calendar according to something a bit more applicable to living across thousands of stars than the rotation of a single planet (Earth) around a single star (The Sun).

Then again, I have no clue about any of the lore of the game, I don't really keep up with that side of the game very much. Anyone know more about the Domain cycle calendar and when it was introduced? I seem to recall something about it being the number of years since the player's sector split from the Domain.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Vanshilar on September 24, 2021, 11:47:00 AM
Hmm...when you were reading up on fluid dynamics, did you consider modeling the flow of a fluid inside of a pipe? It turns out that (due to boundary conditions -- flow is assumed zero where the fluid meets the walls of the pipe) you naturally get a nice effect where the flow rate is parabolic (fastest in the middle, going down to zero at the walls), at least for laminar flow. I'm sure there are some good fluid-in-pipe software and papers out there to make it easier to render, plus, that may be a nice approximation for the speed bonus that you get when inside the slipstream; that the bonus speed you get (beyond your normal speed) is parabolic, with the peak when you're in the middle of the slipstream.

Along with this, there should also be a lot of resources for modeling fluid flow inside a curved pipe. Unfortunately, I don't remember much about this in my undergrad days, other than 1) the pressure on the outside part of the "knee" or bend is higher than the pressure on the inside, since that's basically what makes the fluid curve around, and 2) one homework assignment involved doing a finite element simulation of the fluid flow in a 90 degree bend in a pipe. Everybody except me did it in Matlab since it was just a (relatively) few short lines of code. I didn't know Matlab, so I ended up doing it in...Excel. That's right, a finite element fluid flow simulator written up in Excel for a homework assignment. Sigh.

It seems like the slipstreams are essentially a bunch of curves in a 2-D plane. In which case, it may be computationally easier to model the fluid flow that way (as fluid flow inside a curved pipe), so that the velocity curves are basically pre-computed (i.e. easily determined from a few input parameters). If I remember correctly, the faster fluid flow is actually on the outside part of the knee, not on the inside, which raises an interesting decision for the player: they go faster when they're fairly close to the outer boundary, but if they go too close, then the velocity bonus decays very rapidly. So there's a natural risk vs reward decision in that case.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Nextia on September 24, 2021, 11:47:49 AM
The slipstreams look wacky as hell and real fun at the same time, looking forward to zipping across the sector in them  :D
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: michail on September 24, 2021, 11:54:27 AM
Do these just boost the speed if the fleet is moving in the right direction, or do they actively push the fleet (like pulsar beams do)?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Thaago on September 24, 2021, 12:08:37 PM
Looks neat! I like how the different movement modes have advantages and disadvantages in terms of speed vs following the stream (and of course sensor profile).
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 24, 2021, 12:12:38 PM
Very interesting, I feel this is a perfect time to dig up my old suggestions about having a more scattered colonization layout with small outposts away from the core worlds, because it would make a hell of a lot of sense for the major powers to maintain a security presence at the ends of those slipstreams. Maybe there are a couple ideas in there and the replies that could be worth revisiting?

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13377.0

Ah - these are dynamic, right, so the location of "at the ends" changes over a small timescale.

It's an interesting suggestion, and I saw it back when you posted it! ... and, ah, looks like I replied, and I think that sums up my current feelings about it, too.

Also, I hope scavenger fleets make a heavy use of those slipstreams, so that I can setup a toll secure those trade-lines for the greater good.

Not particularly, no. Fleet AI isn't really aware of these, though its natural behavior I think works reasonably well anyway - you can get some nice chases inside slipstreams, that sort of thing.

Slipstreams look extremely cool, and I love reading about the technical details behind implementing them. Also hooray: hyperspace remnants. :p
Well that came out of nowhere. Thank you for making the exploration content more engaging, looking forward to trying it out!
The slipstreams look wacky as hell and real fun at the same time, looking forward to zipping across the sector in them  :D

:D


this is poggers indeed, though i do not completely understand - what was that at the start about sensor ghosts being the inspiration?

Quote from: blog post
The idea, in this case, was that I wanted a certain type of sensor ghost to leave behind it a wake that made it easy to follow.

Ah - maybe you missed this line in the blog post?

also apologies for asking butwhen could the update be, maybe?
aside the  fact that this ferature needs to be finalized some(like the skills) are still not completely done

When it's ready/soon(tm) :)

also as a side note, maybe the skill to aquire the instantly jump into hyperspace(forgot what it was called) and the neutrino detector could maybe gain a buff from their respective skill, considering that you can get them for free so the skill essentially "offers less"

I wouldn't say that; these skills are balanced without considering that they offer an active ability; it's just an "extra".

Something brought up in the blog post is that the Domain cycles are an arbitrary human concept that coincidentally coincides with two independent seasonal cycles of the slipstream (at this current point in time). Couldn't it be explained that seasonal slipstream cycles actually do follow the Domain calendar because they influenced the creation of the Domain cycle calendar? Unless humans came up with the Domain calendar before they discovered hyperspace and slipstream seasons, it could make more sense that they might create/organize their interstellar empire's calendar according to something a bit more applicable to living across thousands of stars than the rotation of a single planet (Earth) around a single star (The Sun).

Then again, I have no clue about any of the lore of the game, I don't really keep up with that side of the game very much. Anyone know more about the Domain cycle calendar and when it was introduced? I seem to recall something about it being the number of years since the player's sector split from the Domain.

I mean, that would be possible! But the Domain cycle is pretty clearly based on the Old Earth year - months, days in month, etc.


Hmm...when you were reading up on fluid dynamics, did you consider modeling the flow of a fluid inside of a pipe? It turns out that (due to boundary conditions -- flow is assumed zero where the fluid meets the walls of the pipe) you naturally get a nice effect where the flow rate is parabolic (fastest in the middle, going down to zero at the walls), at least for laminar flow. I'm sure there are some good fluid-in-pipe software and papers out there to make it easier to render, plus, that may be a nice approximation for the speed bonus that you get when inside the slipstream; that the bonus speed you get (beyond your normal speed) is parabolic, with the peak when you're in the middle of the slipstream.

Along with this, there should also be a lot of resources for modeling fluid flow inside a curved pipe. Unfortunately, I don't remember much about this in my undergrad days, other than 1) the pressure on the outside part of the "knee" or bend is higher than the pressure on the inside, since that's basically what makes the fluid curve around, and 2) one homework assignment involved doing a finite element simulation of the fluid flow in a 90 degree bend in a pipe. Everybody except me did it in Matlab since it was just a (relatively) few short lines of code. I didn't know Matlab, so I ended up doing it in...Excel. That's right, a finite element fluid flow simulator written up in Excel for a homework assignment. Sigh.

It seems like the slipstreams are essentially a bunch of curves in a 2-D plane. In which case, it may be computationally easier to model the fluid flow that way (as fluid flow inside a curved pipe), so that the velocity curves are basically pre-computed (i.e. easily determined from a few input parameters). If I remember correctly, the faster fluid flow is actually on the outside part of the knee, not on the inside, which raises an interesting decision for the player: they go faster when they're fairly close to the outer boundary, but if they go too close, then the velocity bonus decays very rapidly. So there's a natural risk vs reward decision in that case.

Ah - fluid dynamics got chucked pretty early in the process! It's really simple to have whatever function you want provide a speed multiplier based on how off-center the fleet is, you know? No need to bother with something more complicated.


Do these just boost the speed if the fleet is moving in the right direction, or do they actively push the fleet (like pulsar beams do)?

They carry the fleet along, so it's more like pulsar beams, though you have a bit more control, and particularly when near the edges. But, for example, if you try to cross one going perpendicular to it, unless you e-burn, you'll likely get carried along for a light-year or two before you get to the other side. If you do e-burn, you'll still get carried some ways downstream, just not as much. And of course this depends on how fast the stream is at that point, too.


Looks neat! I like how the different movement modes have advantages and disadvantages in terms of speed vs following the stream (and of course sensor profile).

*thumbs up*
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: intrinsic_parity on September 24, 2021, 12:29:02 PM
Quote
Not particularly, no. Fleet AI isn't really aware of these, though its natural behavior I think works reasonably well anyway - you can get some nice chases inside slipstreams, that sort of thing.
I think this is a major missed opportunity. IMO, it would be much more interesting if there was an inherent danger to using slipstreams because there was an increased level of traffic near them, and I think it would also just feel much more natural.

I would guess that would require some sort of pathfinding algorithm that would be a significant amount of work, but I really think it's worth doing at some point, even if it is not for this patch.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Nick XR on September 24, 2021, 12:33:44 PM
What transition mechanism are you using for when the slip stream moves?  Fade out/in or some sort of stream movement?

Maybe add a quest that gives the current slipstream map?  Knowledge of the current slipstream layout could really give the player some interesting, time limited choices.

Thanks for making an amazing game even better.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: AcaMetis on September 24, 2021, 01:24:32 PM
Quote
Starting with the obvious, slipstreams make fleets inside them go fast – we’re talking in the area of burn level 40, which is about double what can be achieved normally. Maximum speed is achieved near the center of the stream. Narrower sections are faster, while wider sections slow down considerably. This is all indicated by the movement of the particles in the stream, so is easy to get the hang of.
Is that flat, or dependant on the burn speed of the fleet? Basically does the slipstream give 2× burn or does it light a fire underneath your engines and tell you to get going?

Quote
Overall, I think that provides enough options and considerations to stay engaged. And besides, going really fast is just fun! And that brings us to another point.
Let it be known that I approve of precisely all of this...for what that's worth ::).

Quote
As far as generating a slipstream layout – I think here I’ll just talk about how it works and what effect that has/is intended to have, rather than talking about how it got there. So! First off, slipstreams are dynamic – there isn’t a single fixed layout. Instead, a new layout is generated twice per cycle, and the player only sees as much of the slipstream system on the map as they’ve explored – though unlike with sensors, merely getting near enough for it to show up on your radar is sufficient to “see” it and have it be remembered on the map.
How are slipstreams going to interact with mods that change sector size? Are they going to have to limit slipstreams to just where they would be in vanilla (assuming the core even lines up) or even disable them entirely, or can they be changed/modded/added/etc.?

Quote
One might ask, “but why is slipstream flow synchronized with the Domain cycle, which is an arbitrary human construct?”. I could say that the wizard did it. Or, perhaps, that it’s a good question with terrible implications. But, instead – let’s just say that this isn’t a fixed state of affairs, but at the current time in the Sector, two otherwise independent cycles have conveniently lined up.
The wizard? Is there a wizard present in the sector that I do not know about :)?

Quote
the mercurial scythe of balance whiffs
Not sure how to interpret that one...
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 24, 2021, 01:34:20 PM
I think this is a major missed opportunity. IMO, it would be much more interesting if there was an inherent danger to using slipstreams because there was an increased level of traffic near them, and I think it would also just feel much more natural.

I would guess that would require some sort of pathfinding algorithm that would be a significant amount of work, but I really think it's worth doing at some point, even if it is not for this patch.

Ah - the encounter system does this, basically! There aren't *that* many fleets out in hyper beyond the core, anyway, and given how some of that works behind the scenes (RouteManager, spawning things in when near the player, etc) I don't think it'd combine to actually produce a sufficiently increased level of traffic - especially not hostile traffic, with most of that stuff being scavengers. Whereas the encounter system does this explicitly, not trying to rely on that emerging based on other things, if that makes sense.

What transition mechanism are you using for when the slip stream moves?  Fade out/in or some sort of stream movement?

They fade out in bits and pieces (based on some perlin noise type thing) over something less than a month. And then a new set of streams fades in over time, so they don't actually "move".

Well, except for the one that's the wake behind the ghost - though that doesn't move either, it just lays down more slipstream and fades out older segments.

Maybe add a quest that gives the current slipstream map?  Knowledge of the current slipstream layout could really give the player some interesting, time limited choices.

Maybe! Was actually thinking about that very thing, but had to draw the line somewhere :) Still, keeping that one in mind, that could be really fun. And the best part is that it's info you can *keep* giving the player, and it keeps being interesting.

Thanks for making an amazing game even better.

:D

Is that flat, or dependant on the burn speed of the fleet? Basically does the slipstream give 2× burn or does it light a fire underneath your engines and tell you to get going?

The stream has a base speed, and then the fleet's speed is modified by any active-ability modifiers to the fleet's speed (i.e. e-burn, s-burn). I actually forget if tugs increase your in-stream speed or not.

So: flat, but not entirely, and *not* dependent on your slowest ship's burn.

Let it be known that I approve of precisely all of this...for what that's worth ::).

Excellent :)

How are slipstreams going to interact with mods that change sector size? Are they going to have to limit slipstreams to just where they would be in vanilla (assuming the core even lines up) or even disable them entirely, or can they be changed/modded/added/etc.?

The layouts can be modded, yeah. Without any changes, iirc the streams would cover the bigger sector, but would be sparser because of the increased area.

The wizard? Is there a wizard present in the sector that I do not know about :)?

:-X

Quote
the mercurial scythe of balance whiffs
Not sure how to interpret that one...

(Just a round about way of saying that this post did not discuss any nerfs to anything...)
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: JUDGE! slowpersun on September 24, 2021, 01:58:14 PM
I think this is a major missed opportunity. IMO, it would be much more interesting if there was an inherent danger to using slipstreams because there was an increased level of traffic near them, and I think it would also just feel much more natural.

I would guess that would require some sort of pathfinding algorithm that would be a significant amount of work, but I really think it's worth doing at some point, even if it is not for this patch.

Ah - the encounter system does this, basically! There aren't *that* many fleets out in hyper beyond the core, anyway, and given how some of that works behind the scenes (RouteManager, spawning things in when near the player, etc) I don't think it'd combine to actually produce a sufficiently increased level of traffic - especially not hostile traffic, with most of that stuff being scavengers. Whereas the encounter system does this explicitly, not trying to rely on that emerging based on other things, if that makes sense.

What transition mechanism are you using for when the slip stream moves?  Fade out/in or some sort of stream movement?

They fade out in bits and pieces (based on some perlin noise type thing) over something less than a month. And then a new set of streams fades in over time, so they don't actually "move".

Well, except for the one that's the wake behind the ghost - though that doesn't move either, it just lays down more slipstream and fades out older segments.

Maybe add a quest that gives the current slipstream map?  Knowledge of the current slipstream layout could really give the player some interesting, time limited choices.

Maybe! Was actually thinking about that very thing, but had to draw the line somewhere :) Still, keeping that one in mind, that could be really fun. And the best part is that it's info you can *keep* giving the player, and it keeps being interesting.

Is that flat, or dependant on the burn speed of the fleet? Basically does the slipstream give 2× burn or does it light a fire underneath your engines and tell you to get going?

The stream has a base speed, and then the fleet's speed is modified by any active-ability modifiers to the fleet's speed (i.e. e-burn, s-burn). I actually forget if tugs increase your in-stream speed or not.

So: flat, but not entirely, and *not* dependent on your slowest ship's burn.


Interesting Chutes and Ladders addition, but it neatly fixes some complaints about hyperspace taking forever until storyline finishes, basically.  Seems kinda silly to point out, but slipstreams and currents on Earth are as much a function of gyre movement as fluid dynamics... mostly because Earth's axis is tilted.  Still, making the slipstreams change seasonally is a better use than making it totally random.  But, as you mentioned, entrances and exits are dynamically generated as seasons change.  So are these truly subject to drift over time, or do the entrance/exit only move around a limited geography?  Also, do multiple slipstream "maps" overlap and simultaenously change on the season, or just one at a time?  Because having stuff go "north"/"south" seasonally would be just as easy as "east"/"west" ...

Plus, would be cool to have bounty/quest option to map any particular slipstream early in season and then sell to faction(s).  Even cooler if player can also buy maps off of black market.  Although I guess the level of cool would vary based on whether same slipstream maps are reused, so that even if it changes a little, maps still basically accurate (or not).

Also, what happens if your fleet runs out of fuel in a slipstream?  Do you conserve momentum and just shoot out (and then drift), or do you still have some measure of control?  Or when you get low on fuel, is it better to drop burn level to low and just ride it out to wherever you need to go; basically, what is minimum speed in a slipstream before being ejected due to lack of control?

Finally, can you still add a vectored version of the fluid particle effect to battles in sun corona and solar flares (plus maybe neutron star beams)?  Solar wind baby!
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Grievous69 on September 24, 2021, 01:58:49 PM
I'm time and time again impressed how you manage to come up with such elegant and fun idea to improve a part of the game I didn't even expect to get looked at in detail. I mean I was aware how some think hyperspace travel is boring and slow, but I didn't see a brand new mechanic coming. Looks really cool and can't wait to try it out in practice to see how much of a difference will it make.

Slightly unrelated, is this then the final "meaty" part of the upcoming update? I know there's still a fair amount of work to be done but I'm curious if we're reaching the final stretch so to speak.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Voyager I on September 24, 2021, 02:18:27 PM
Worth clarifying precisely - are ships in slipstreams protected from hyperspace storms (even if it's only because the two forms of stellar geography can't overlap), or are they protected only from the speed debuff and still liable to the slipstream taking them on a ride through a bunch of lightning strikes?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Amoebka on September 24, 2021, 02:35:40 PM
Now instead of flying into an unseen pirate armada at burn 30 I can do it at 40. Hyperspace just got 33% more exciting.

Hoping at least one of those ghosts is a giant alien amoeba flying around, MoO style.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: FooF on September 24, 2021, 02:43:41 PM
Worth clarifying precisely - are ships in slipstreams protected from hyperspace storms (even if it's only because the two forms of stellar geography can't overlap), or are they protected only from the speed debuff and still liable to the slipstream taking them on a ride through a bunch of lightning strikes?

From the blogpost: "(Oh, and worth noting: being inside a slipstream takes precedence over any other terrain your fleet might be in. So, for example, the bonuses/penalties from being in deep hyperspace, or in a storm, and so on, do not apply.)" I interpret that as, yes, you're protected from hyperspace storm strikes.

@Alex

Very cool (and completely unlooked-for). I'm intrigued by the "ghosts" themselves at this point, which of course, you'll say nothing about. The fact that these slipstreams are seasonal is also interesting, both for gameplay and lore reasons. I imagine I'll chart courses depending on whether a slipstream is available or not but I wonder how much I'll wait for one vs. leg it to a far-off location.

I remember some kind of "wave" phenomena from ages ago that I remember thinking "aww, that would have been a real cool way to travel" and lo and behold, we have something quite a bit more refined/focused.

I also think these tunnels are great fodder for hyperspace monsters but I won't hold my breath! :)
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Sly on September 24, 2021, 02:51:53 PM
These look like a lot of fun. I would've loved to see this in Star Control 2 way back. Fit real well with the simple inertial mechanics it had.

Ride the wave
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 24, 2021, 03:03:09 PM
But, as you mentioned, entrances and exits are dynamically generated as seasons change.  So are these truly subject to drift over time, or do the entrance/exit only move around a limited geography?  Also, do multiple slipstream "maps" overlap and simultaenously change on the season, or just one at a time?  Because having stuff go "north"/"south" seasonally would be just as easy as "east"/"west" ...

One "layout" fades away, and then the new one fades in. Otherwise it could get awkward with stream overlaps with going-away streams disrupting the new streams, etc. So the 6th/12th month of the cycle are when the current set of slipstreams fades away.

Plus, would be cool to have bounty/quest option to map any particular slipstream early in season and then sell to faction(s).  Even cooler if player can also buy maps off of black market.  Although I guess the level of cool would vary based on whether same slipstream maps are reused, so that even if it changes a little, maps still basically accurate (or not).

Could be very cool, yeah!

Also, what happens if your fleet runs out of fuel in a slipstream?  Do you conserve momentum and just shoot out (and then drift), or do you still have some measure of control?  Or when you get low on fuel, is it better to drop burn level to low and just ride it out to wherever you need to go; basically, what is minimum speed in a slipstream before being ejected due to lack of control?

Some momentum, but you lose control - it's as if you were constantly trying to move out of the stream and into the nearest gravity well. So you'll get carried along some, but not a lot.

Finally, can you still add a vectored version of the fluid particle effect to battles in sun corona and solar flares (plus maybe neutron star beams)?  Solar wind baby!

Hmm, probably not, honestly - I don't know that adding something "busy"-looking to a combat background is a good idea. Might have a look at some in-combat nod to it at some point, but right now there isn't anything.

I'm time and time again impressed how you manage to come up with such elegant and fun idea to improve a part of the game I didn't even expect to get looked at in detail. I mean I was aware how some think hyperspace travel is boring and slow, but I didn't see a brand new mechanic coming. Looks really cool and can't wait to try it out in practice to see how much of a difference will it make.

Slightly unrelated, is this then the final "meaty" part of the upcoming update? I know there's still a fair amount of work to be done but I'm curious if we're reaching the final stretch so to speak.

Hah, thank you! Hope it works out well. And yeah, it's the last "meaty" part, though there is indeed a bunch of polish-type stuff still left.

Worth clarifying precisely - are ships in slipstreams protected from hyperspace storms (even if it's only because the two forms of stellar geography can't overlap), or are they protected only from the speed debuff and still liable to the slipstream taking them on a ride through a bunch of lightning strikes?

From the blogpost: "(Oh, and worth noting: being inside a slipstream takes precedence over any other terrain your fleet might be in. So, for example, the bonuses/penalties from being in deep hyperspace, or in a storm, and so on, do not apply.)" I interpret that as, yes, you're protected from hyperspace storm strikes.

Very cool (and completely unlooked-for). I'm intrigued by the "ghosts" themselves at this point, which of course, you'll say nothing about.

Indeed :)

The fact that these slipstreams are seasonal is also interesting, both for gameplay and lore reasons. I imagine I'll chart courses depending on whether a slipstream is available or not but I wonder how much I'll wait for one vs. leg it to a far-off location.

I'd imagine you *probably* wouldn't wait for one very often? But deciding which direction from core to go on an expedition in, where to take bounties, and so on - that could well take on a seasonal aspect. It'll be really interesting to see exactly how it pans out, though.

I remember some kind of "wave" phenomena from ages ago that I remember thinking "aww, that would have been a real cool way to travel" and lo and behold, we have something quite a bit more refined/focused.

Yeah! I remember that one; the class was even called "Slipstream"... something or other, in the code.

I also think these tunnels are great fodder for hyperspace monsters but I won't hold my breath! :)

(I'll say, I'm very partial to the concept, so you never know. If I could think of a way to get a really nice 2-D amoeba going...)


Now instead of flying into an unseen pirate armada at burn 30 I can do it at 40. Hyperspace just got 33% more exciting.

Haha! Indeed. On the bright side, you know exactly where to expect this. And in the (fairly limited) testing so far, going dark a little ways out from a break is pretty effective.


Hoping at least one of those ghosts is a giant alien amoeba flying around, MoO style.

:-X


These look like a lot of fun. I would've loved to see this in Star Control 2 way back. Fit real well with the simple inertial mechanics it had.

Ride the wave

(Ah, yeah, that would've been neat! Quasi space was pretty cool, though, and played kind of a similar role design-wise, didn't it.)
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Killian on September 24, 2021, 03:37:52 PM
I, for one, welcome our new hyperspace toobs. It'll be nice to have some interstellar terrain that isn't just "you go slower" or "you can go a little bit faster if you do it right but if you don't you'll get yeeted off course instead"... ;D

Curious to see what modders will do with this too. I could see entirely-custom sector maps with static slipstreams being a thing for TC-type mods, as well as colony or stable-point structures to artificially generate a stable slipstream between two specific systems.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SonnaBanana on September 24, 2021, 05:54:21 PM
Do colonies get accessibility bonuses from system proximity to slipstreams?
Since hyperspace travel is now more economical and enjoyable, are larger sector maps now more manageble?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 24, 2021, 07:04:55 PM
Curious to see what modders will do with this too. I could see entirely-custom sector maps with static slipstreams being a thing for TC-type mods, as well as colony or stable-point structures to artificially generate a stable slipstream between two specific systems.

Hmm, yeah! I've thought about the latter, by the way - that could be a really interesting special item to give the player at some point, some kind of ... "Hyperstream Anchor", I don't know.

(My secret wish is for a race track, complete with other fleets competing, for prizes - and glory!)

Do colonies get accessibility bonuses from system proximity to slipstreams?

Nope! Since those are randomized, and you don't always know where they are, and they don't last, that'd be essentially a random bonus, I think.

Since hyperspace travel is now more economical and enjoyable, are larger sector maps now more manageble?

Possibly? I feel pretty happy with the size of the map in vanilla, though.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: FooF on September 24, 2021, 07:23:41 PM
Yeah, I haven't wished for a larger map. By the time I have endgame fleets, the fuel cost is stupid-high to go more than halfway across it and back. A more "varied" map might be on my wishlist but it's not like you can create distinct biomes or quadrants without really killing the suspension of disbelief. After all, at the end of the day, all space is is clusters of gas and orbiting rocks (of various sizes). 

I suppose a little civilization out among the stars is kind of what I crave, and not just the ruined kind. Fringe independent colonies that clash with pirates out away from the Core are something I've always would have liked to see (especially if, with some missions/coaxing, you could get them to join you and add a colony to your faction) but again, I'm not holding my breath. Ruins, orbital habitats, and the like tell me that such stuff once existed but everything has been in a state of decay since the Collapse. Size 3 worlds just scratching a living in random places doesn't sound too far-fetched to me, though. Or heck, and it would have to be story-related, a system cut off but with pristine Domain technology or even an alien world of some sort. Maybe none of this is in the vision/scope of the game but discovering these things (and fighting them!) would be a fun experience.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Sly on September 24, 2021, 08:40:54 PM
Hmm, yeah! I've thought about the latter, by the way - that could be a really interesting special item to give the player at some point, some kind of ... "Hyperstream Anchor", I don't know.

(My secret wish is for a race track, complete with other fleets competing, for prizes - and glory!)

That would also make having distant colonies a lot more palatable. Assuming you can colonize close to the core, then slipstream out somewhere (or back) to a colony in a local or adjacent constellation at the terminus.

Hosting a race on a static slipstream(s) for the major factions would be a pretty fun one-off event. Aside from the racing itself, all the politics, backstabbing, and straight up open combat. Merchandising, MERCHANDISING! Come see the fastest in the Sector compete for Prestige and Bragging Rights! Reliable Hegemony engineering vs. Tri-Tachyon's bleeding edge! Daredevils from the League vs. Diktat discipline! Proselytizing pilots from Gilead squaring up with the predictably treacherous Pirates (naturally, Kanta greased a few wheels to enter). And the wild card (INSERT PLAYER FACTION HERE), the dark horse for the event. Who can say what the consequences would be for outshining the Sector's biggest names? Would it be worth it for taking the grand prize, and winning admiration across the Sector?

All bets are final!

No one invite the Pathers, though, they hate fun. Unless??? ;)

Naturally, it'd be fun to just race for low stakes as well.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Sundog on September 24, 2021, 08:45:33 PM
Awesome. I love everything about this!
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SonnaBanana on September 24, 2021, 10:30:07 PM
Not going to say no to more Hyperdangers and Hypertreasues!
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SCC on September 24, 2021, 11:06:37 PM
And yet, no Turtle-class. For shame.
Quote
And you won’t always encounter hostiles; sometimes you might encounter mercenaries or scavengers instead. So it’s both a potential combat encounter, and a source of information for a more observant player – information that could lead into yet more combat, if they so choose.
The only thing I can think of is "scavenger fleet in hyperspace means scavenger fleets in that system too". Otherwise, there are only pirate targets and independent targets, no big difference between them.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: JAL28 on September 24, 2021, 11:31:34 PM
Well this looks great, basically fast travel in hyperspace without needing to finish the story or use mods
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Madao on September 25, 2021, 02:02:51 AM
Just brilliant as always Alex, keep doing your thing   ;D
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alliostra on September 25, 2021, 03:43:19 AM
This looks amazing, I can't wait to travel through a giant pyrosome!  :D

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Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Cyan Leader on September 25, 2021, 08:39:02 AM
Tangential question but do you expect the next update to break faction mods?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: ceemeeoh on September 25, 2021, 10:28:04 AM
Very interesting, I feel this is a perfect time to dig up my old suggestions about having a more scattered colonization layout with small outposts away from the core worlds, because it would make a hell of a lot of sense for the major powers to maintain a security presence at the ends of those slipstreams. Maybe there are a couple ideas in there and the replies that could be worth revisiting?

You're on to something, yeah.  A definite immersion-maker and encourages both curiosity and care to the exploration of other zones. 

On the comments of larger maps, as much as I'm wishy-washy on having them being larger (and the slipstream feature sure as hell justifies that), I guess I 'get' keeping the current size from both a design and SWE standpoint.  It's probably complex enough as is to plan out much less consider randomized elements.  But hey, mods find a way...

Nice stuff, Alex.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SCC on September 25, 2021, 10:45:01 AM
I don't think SS gains much from larger sector map, since all it does increases chances for a perfect system (nice, but not essential) and more loot from exploration (every system is like a lootbox and the more systems you have, the more lootboxes you get). It just means you can grind for longer.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 25, 2021, 11:14:41 AM
Well this looks great, basically fast travel in hyperspace without needing to finish the story or use mods
Just brilliant as always Alex, keep doing your thing   ;D
Nice stuff, Alex.

Thank you!

This looks amazing, I can't wait to travel through a giant pyrosome!  :D

Oh, neat!

Tangential question but do you expect the next update to break faction mods?

I don't think so, no. Though I suppose depending on exactly what these mods do in hyperspace, slipstreams have the potential to throw a wrench into that. But just generally speaking, no.


I don't think SS gains much from larger sector map, since all it does increases chances for a perfect system (nice, but not essential) and more loot from exploration (every system is like a lootbox and the more systems you have, the more lootboxes you get). It just means you can grind for longer.
On the comments of larger maps, as much as I'm wishy-washy on having them being larger (and the slipstream feature sure as hell justifies that), I guess I 'get' keeping the current size from both a design and SWE standpoint.  It's probably complex enough as is to plan out much less consider randomized elements.  But hey, mods find a way...

Yeah, I'm not sure increasing the Sector size just for the sake of "more" would be a good idea. I could see doing it if, say, it really needed more room to fit something specific in, though...
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Megas on September 25, 2021, 11:39:22 AM
Bigger sector size makes the babysitting problem worse if player wants to explore (or build a colony) far from core, but player needs to frequently go to core, or if his colonies are at the deep fringe but needs to stop what he is doing and rush back to defend them as soon as an alert is posted.

Could not say how many times I had to stop deep fringe exploration because I spent too much time rushing back and forth intercepting raiders, and the one game (in 0.9 or 0.9.1) when I ignored pirates attacking the core worlds (because my colonies were at the southeast corner of the map, far from core), Asharu decivilized from repeated pirate raids, and other core worlds were at zero stability and ready to decivilize soon.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: behrooz on September 25, 2021, 12:20:07 PM
This looks incredible!  One point of feedback -- the visual representation of slipstreams on the sector map needs to be scaled by intensity. 

In the examples, the slipstream indicators seem to have the same intensity regardless of width, so wider areas of the slipstreams stand out much more (https://fractalsoftworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/stream_full.jpg).

This is the inverse of the actual gameplay effects, where a narrower slipstream is 'faster' than it is when it widens out, a big fat wide arrow slipstream indicator stands out a lot more than the narrowest segments.

Thinner sections of the slipstreams would benefit from proportionally boosted brightness or opacity on the starmap to make them 'stand out', the way they will when you're zipping through 'em.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 25, 2021, 12:46:04 PM
This looks incredible!  One point of feedback -- the visual representation of slipstreams on the sector map needs to be scaled by intensity. 

In the examples, the slipstream indicators seem to have the same intensity regardless of width, so wider areas of the slipstreams stand out much more (https://fractalsoftworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/stream_full.jpg).

This is the inverse of the actual gameplay effects, where a narrower slipstream is 'faster' than it is when it widens out, a big fat wide arrow slipstream indicator stands out a lot more than the narrowest segments.

Thinner sections of the slipstreams would benefit from proportionally boosted brightness or opacity on the starmap to make them 'stand out', the way they will when you're zipping through 'em.

Interesting idea! I gave this a quick try, and it doesn't work out that way - rather, it starts to look more confusing; if the wider sections are faded out enough for that to stand out, they're also faded out enough that's hard to tell that they're actually wider, so it becomes a "why is this faded out" (which, in fact, it could be also because the stream is dissipating, or because it's fading towards a "break", etc) rather than "ah, this is wider, so it'll be slower".

More information can sometimes become more visual noise and make things less clear rather than more; it's interesting to see where that point is sometimes!
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: chandl34 on September 25, 2021, 02:16:16 PM
Haha, I've always liked comparing this game's campaign to Sid Meier's Pirates!.  Now we've got our currents.   
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 25, 2021, 03:56:59 PM
Haha, I've always liked comparing this game's campaign to Sid Meier's Pirates!.  Now we've got our currents.

Yarr! One of my all-time favorite games, btw.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SonnaBanana on September 25, 2021, 05:32:27 PM
Haha, I've always liked comparing this game's campaign to Sid Meier's Pirates!.  Now we've got our currents.

Yarr! One of my all-time favorite games, btw.
What other stuff from Pirates would you lije to put in Starsector?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: chandl34 on September 25, 2021, 06:02:32 PM
Haha, I've always liked comparing this game's campaign to Sid Meier's Pirates!.  Now we've got our currents.

Yarr! One of my all-time favorite games, btw.
What other stuff from Pirates would you lije to put in Starsector?
Having the crew sing sea shanties and wooing the Governor's daughter.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: FooF on September 25, 2021, 06:24:05 PM
I can't imagine trying to woo Warlord Kanta in a dancing mini-game...:D Since the player character is never really seen outside of a portrait, and the cycles don't go by that fast, character aging and death really wouldn't fit but that was always something I was aware of and enjoyed playing Pirates. The fact that even though it was fairly "open" you were on a timer. As I've said in the past, if there was some story mission that put in giant red letters "Accept this and there's no going back" and the whole Sector was put on notice for some impending doom, I'd be all for it. Time, or the lack thereof, can be a powerful motivator in games.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SonnaBanana on September 25, 2021, 06:42:41 PM

Having the crew sing sea shanties and wooing the Governor's daughter.
I want space-shanties and wooing the governor's mother, yes.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Nick XR on September 25, 2021, 06:47:10 PM

Having the crew sing sea shanties and wooing the Governor's daughter.
I want space-shanties and wooing the governor's mother, yes.

Light sabre fight mini-game with surprise perma-death mechanics >.<
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SonnaBanana on September 25, 2021, 07:47:08 PM
Anyway, what more stuff are you going to add to Hyperspace, Alex?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: gotry on September 26, 2021, 02:46:42 AM
next year's update looking good, cant wait. and i mean i literally cannot wait, alex ma brathna, i have cancer. i will be dead within say... 2-3 months. alex, i need you to release the next patch before the semi-sentient network of synaptically connected neoplasms slowly proliferating in every oragan of my body succeeds in overriding my consciousness.

i fear what may come afterwards, butt... perhaps the awakened malignant mind could be distracted from reforming humanity in its image by regular Starsector updates, so that its raw hatred is directed towards mod creators, and its demands of tribute could be met by sacrificing Vayra in an arcane ritual

good luck, ins'Allah
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Gothars on September 26, 2021, 04:53:28 AM
i have cancer. i will be dead within say... 2-3 months.


That's an inappropriate topic to joke about. Please avoid to do so in the future.



Blog post here (https://fractalsoftworks.com/2021/09/24/of-slipstreams-and-sensor-ghosts/).

Really cool, that will invigorate travelling. I really didn't expect something so elaborate. Will there be a special combat scenario for fighting in a slipstream?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: megabot on September 26, 2021, 08:59:31 AM
This looks incredible!  One point of feedback -- the visual representation of slipstreams on the sector map needs to be scaled by intensity. 

In the examples, the slipstream indicators seem to have the same intensity regardless of width, so wider areas of the slipstreams stand out much more (https://fractalsoftworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/stream_full.jpg).

This is the inverse of the actual gameplay effects, where a narrower slipstream is 'faster' than it is when it widens out, a big fat wide arrow slipstream indicator stands out a lot more than the narrowest segments.

Thinner sections of the slipstreams would benefit from proportionally boosted brightness or opacity on the starmap to make them 'stand out', the way they will when you're zipping through 'em.

Interesting idea! I gave this a quick try, and it doesn't work out that way - rather, it starts to look more confusing; if the wider sections are faded out enough for that to stand out, they're also faded out enough that's hard to tell that they're actually wider, so it becomes a "why is this faded out" (which, in fact, it could be also because the stream is dissipating, or because it's fading towards a "break", etc) rather than "ah, this is wider, so it'll be slower".

More information can sometimes become more visual noise and make things less clear rather than more; it's interesting to see where that point is sometimes!

sugestion: maybe messing with arrow width/shape/size/number could do it

wider hyperspace lane? thecker(but not longer) arrows, which have more space between each other than a fast one, which has thin arrows
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: megabot on September 26, 2021, 09:02:20 AM
also on a side note, what are hyperspace ghosts even?

i am not asking for the detailed lore or meaning or whatever, but like - what does your fleet pick up? or does it even pick up anything? is it like a permanent sensor ping, in terms of appearance for your sensors, or like a big spread out debree field, or a big ball of mass, or..? what are we even remotely talking about here, aside from what it actually is
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: JUDGE! slowpersun on September 26, 2021, 10:07:13 AM
also on a side note, what are hyperspace ghosts even?

Well, calling them space fog banks would have been a little on the nose...
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 26, 2021, 10:09:41 AM
Really cool, that will invigorate travelling. I really didn't expect something so elaborate. Will there be a special combat scenario for fighting in a slipstream?

There won't, no! I can see adding a nod to being inside a slipstream in the combat background at some point - though very carefully, don't want to make the background look too busy - but as far as any sort of special mechanics, that'd be an AI nightmare.

sugestion: maybe messing with arrow width/shape/size/number could do it

wider hyperspace lane? thecker(but not longer) arrows, which have more space between each other than a fast one, which has thin arrows

Honestly, I think it works well as-is! It's easy enough to learn the correlation between "wider = slower" and the map conveys that very clearly. Adding some other differentiator to wider sections (that you can already see are wider) makes it more confusing, I think - it raises the question of "what's this trying to indicate" and it's not at all obvious that the answer is "that it's slower", especially given that width already conveys that.

also on a side note, what are hyperspace ghosts even?

i am not asking for the detailed lore or meaning or whatever, but like - what does your fleet pick up? or does it even pick up anything? is it like a permanent sensor ping, in terms of appearance for your sensors, or like a big spread out debree field, or a big ball of mass, or..? what are we even remotely talking about here, aside from what it actually is

What you see is like a regular sensor contact, the sort you get when you're approaching another fleet, a mining station you haven't discovered, a debris field, etc.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alliostra on September 26, 2021, 10:58:15 AM
I think one thing that could go a long way to make the half-a-cycle change appear more organic to the player would be to simply randomize the actual date where the slipstreams change by, say, a month and a half, and to make a smaller part of the network change at an earlier or later date than the rest does (although this would probably be harder to actually implement).
These irregularities shouldn't be severe enough to make people stop planning around the "seasons" of course, but I feel like a little bit of unreliability wouldn't hurt the system while making it that much more believable.
This could also allow for interesting (or annoying) scenarios to happen, such as the slipstreams persisting a bit longer then usual before changing, just long enough to allow you to rush to the defense of your colony in time- or the opposite of that.

Edit: Couldn't a special combat scenario while in a slipstream just be something small like the faster drain of PPT in a corona? The zero flux boost always being active or just a bit of extra bonus speed for all ships come to mind, and it doesn't seem like the AI would react strangely to that, as it can deal with getting a speed boost from Nav rating or having SO installed already.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SonnaBanana on September 26, 2021, 06:53:08 PM
Back to our regularly scheduled "rleaz wen"....
Alex, any chance you'll be getting 0.95.1a out before Christmas?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Tearydan on September 27, 2021, 08:11:16 AM
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!

So happy to see this in the game, literally stopped lurking and made an account because I need to say thank you.
I had figured that maybe there would be some sort of waves in hyperspace where you could catch a ride on, but you've created a system which has outdone my hopes.

Very interested at your hints regarding the terrible implications of the slipstreams though. Each update I've done a full playthrough to the endgame content, but it's been nice seeing how it's increasingly threaded into the narrative.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 27, 2021, 10:44:38 AM
I think one thing that could go a long way to make the half-a-cycle change appear more organic to the player would be to simply randomize the actual date where the slipstreams change by, say, a month and a half, and to make a smaller part of the network change at an earlier or later date than the rest does (although this would probably be harder to actually implement).
These irregularities shouldn't be severe enough to make people stop planning around the "seasons" of course, but I feel like a little bit of unreliability wouldn't hurt the system while making it that much more believable.
This could also allow for interesting (or annoying) scenarios to happen, such as the slipstreams persisting a bit longer then usual before changing, just long enough to allow you to rush to the defense of your colony in time- or the opposite of that.

Ah - it sort of works like that, just within a calendar month. But there's a fair amount of swing in how long it takes for slipstreams to dissipate or come into being.

Edit: Couldn't a special combat scenario while in a slipstream just be something small like the faster drain of PPT in a corona? The zero flux boost always being active or just a bit of extra bonus speed for all ships come to mind, and it doesn't seem like the AI would react strangely to that, as it can deal with getting a speed boost from Nav rating or having SO installed already.

Hmm, that could work! I was thinking something more literal in terms of blowing ships around, but the 0-flux bonus being always on is both thematic and doesn't benefit a specific group of ships over another *too* much, so it's a really good candidate. (Otherwise, you get into kind of unfortunate "now you gotta drag every fleet into a slipstream and fight them there" territory... potentially, anyway - less of an issue in hyperspace since there's a fuel cost for doing that.) Right - will keep this in mind, thank you!


Back to our regularly scheduled "rleaz wen"....
Alex, any chance you'll be getting 0.95.1a out before Christmas?

The release will be coming out... when it's ready :D


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!

So happy to see this in the game, literally stopped lurking and made an account because I need to say thank you.

Aaaaaaaaaaaahh!! Welcome :)

I had figured that maybe there would be some sort of waves in hyperspace where you could catch a ride on, but you've created a system which has outdone my hopes.

Fun fact - way back some years ago, that was my idea, too. But I had a rough time making it work, both with the visuals and structuring the waves so that they were 1) fast enough to be useful and 2) possible to see coming and actually catch. Stationary slipstreams really helped resolve these mechanical problems, and it was easier to make the visuals work, too.

Very interested at your hints regarding the terrible implications of the slipstreams though. Each update I've done a full playthrough to the endgame content, but it's been nice seeing how it's increasingly threaded into the narrative.

You'll need to keep a keen eye out!
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: oooh_senpai on September 27, 2021, 01:49:19 PM
So, adding new cool mechanic to the game is why next patch is being delayed?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Amoebka on September 27, 2021, 04:25:57 PM
the 0-flux bonus being always on is both thematic and doesn't benefit a specific group of ships over another *too* much, so it's a really good candidate
Wait a minute. +5 flat speed from elite helmsmanship is intended to benefit low-tech because "flat bonuses are better on ships with lower numbers", but flat +50 speed doesn't benefit anyone specifically? How does that work.  :D
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 27, 2021, 04:27:40 PM
Wait a minute. +5 flat speed from elite helmsmanship is intended to benefit low-tech because "flat bonuses are better on ships with lower numbers", but flat +50 speed doesn't benefit anyone specifically? How does that work.  :D

1) It's intended to benefit larger ships more, not specifically low tech
2) I did say *too much*; it obviously does benefit some ships more than others :)
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: sector_terror on September 27, 2021, 04:39:40 PM
Well, there went my November update prediction.

I always have enough problems managing fuel and movement, lord knows what this will do to balancing the pay or bounty jobs given how much it changes navigation.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Vanshilar on September 27, 2021, 05:14:09 PM
So, adding new cool mechanic to the game is why next patch is being delayed?

No, the single biggest reason why the next patch is delayed is that every time somebody asks "when is it coming out?" or "why isn't it out yet?" or anything along those lines, it gets delayed for another week. For mods, two weeks.

The only answer anybody ever needs to know as to when the next patch will be released, is that it will be released soonTM.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SonnaBanana on September 27, 2021, 06:56:58 PM
Possibly off-topic but any changes to officers/mercs, particularly relating to recruitment and availability?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: ubuntufreakdragon on September 27, 2021, 09:11:03 PM
Are there any plans for more repair options than full and no repairs?
When you return from exploration 5days from the core with lets say 20-40% CR left on most ships(after a battle against some auto defences) and about 10 days in supplies, and full repair would consume twice the supplies you have, so far common early situation.
The current action would be stop repairs.
Now every few seconds you get struck by an hyper storm, reducing the CR of one logistic ship to 0% allowing accidents, so every few seconds you have to open the fleet screen and resume the repairs for one ship and an in game day later stop them again, a micro hell.
I want an option to limit the amount of CR maximally repaired.

There was an idea to mark Neutrino sources on the map if you move enough, will the get an implementation?

Will those pirates at the slipstream end be hostile even with high pirate rep?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Deshara on September 28, 2021, 03:29:52 AM
the idea of sensor ghosts is fascinating to me. it reminds me of a bit in my favorite book blindsight, where the earth gets surveyed by alien probes that leave no trace except for a data stream tightbeamed at an asteroid in the outer belts. they send a group of probes to burn nonstop out past the asteroid to take snapshots of it as they pass by (which gave me one of my favorite quotes of all time, "Once or twice we are even asked if some judicious use of thrust and gravity might allow us to linger a bit longer, but deceleration is for pansies; we're headed for the stars. Bye Earth. Bye Mission Control. Bye Sol. See you at heat death."), and then a second group of probes to burn towards halfway & away the second half so that they actually come to a stop at the asteroid, and when they try to use 3 probes to triangulate a high resolution deep scan of the asteroid's internal composition, it vanishes instantly. because the asteroid was a super-positioned quantum particle; real enough for something to bounce a signal off of towards the real destination, but if you attempted to inspect it to garner any insight as to what put it there the waveform is collapsed & it snaps out of existence, revealing the true location of the data's destination -- but, even though the trick was identified by drones shot ahead of the human-laden space ship, by the time they find out it is, thanks to the fun of space travel & newton's third law, it's already too late to turn back. they're locked in to their heading & have been since leaving earth and all they can do is flick cards at a wall until they complete their trip out and then their trip back before rerouting to the new destination. whoever it was that laid the trick successfully managed to buy themselves a bunch of time, to prepare for/to do something, and the only thing humanity learned about them in the process is that they are either hostile or scared, of something.
a signal relay station, made out of a sensor ghost

also, the idea of a type of sensor ghost that functions literally exactly like an AI fleet until it gets revealed & vanishes is really cool to me. you're out in the blackness of dead space doing dead space things, and then a huge sensor signal shows up, something so big it can only be a hostile warfleet, and it's bearing down on you with murderous intent, and then just as it reaches you it fades into nothing -- a mote of dust that caught your ship's sensors in exactly the wrong way. or, you spot a small signal in an asteroid belt you're searching and it slips away from you as you approach it and begins fleeing, dodging you when you try to catch it until you e-burn an intercept course & it's revealed that it was a mote, a stray streak of exotic energy acting as if negatively magnetized away from your fleet, for no discernible reason. creepy stuff lays down this road.

edit: oh yeah & I just remember i wrote a big post spitballing ideas for sensor ghosts in call of duty's minimap that would allow for cod to give a permanent sorta-uav to both teams to discourage camping -- mostly just for me to document the thoughts somewhere I'd be able to find them later if needed. i would copy/paste some of the more applicable ideas but im tired so i'll just hyperlink  (https://www.reddit.com/r/gameideas/comments/pjnqia/global_heatsensor_minimap_system_to_counter/)it & hope nobody actually reads any of it. 1 juicy thought real quick before i actually log off though; a [redacted] station/site in a system defended extremely heavily by a massive number of patrolling fleets, most of which are sensor ghosts. an abandoned station that is revealed to be a sensor ghost & teleports to a new location when you reach it, once or twice. a type of star (or terrain. magnetic field?) that generates sensor ghosts. an abandoned station that is revealed to be a sensor ghost & teleports to a new location every time you reach it unless/until you use a neutrino detector to work out its real location & its not revealed until after you park at 0 speed within combat initiation range. a station that does the same but isn't abandoned/undefended & attacks as soon as you reveal it. a hullmod that generates sensor ghosts for enemy fleets with a lower ECM rating, and reduces sensor ghosts generated by an enemy fleet with this hullmod & a higher ECM rating. a campaign ability that creates a ghost signal of your fleet that emergency or sustained burns away from nearby hostiles but is only usable while going dark is active and in slow mode
okay a few ideas. i have a problem

On the comments of larger maps, as much as I'm wishy-washy on having them being larger (and the slipstream feature sure as hell justifies that), I guess I 'get' keeping the current size from both a design and SWE standpoint.  It's probably complex enough as is to plan out much less consider randomized elements.  But hey, mods find a way...

Yeah, I'm not sure increasing the Sector size just for the sake of "more" would be a good idea. I could see doing it if, say, it really needed more room to fit something specific in, though...

my last campaign i did that to my game to increase the difficulty by making the distance between things in hyperspace unreasonable
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Ahriman on September 28, 2021, 04:00:04 AM
Another lurker finally conquering his laziness to register. I just love it how every update upends my ideas about what Star Sector can be. The new skills are nice, I am overjoyed by the new low-tech stuff, but the slipstreams are a completely new and fun-sounding addition, just like the story points. Of course as someone who loves the Onslaught, the low-tech "soft buffs" will be the bestest, very closely followed by the new pirate ships, but seeing the game expand with meaningful mechanisms (as opposed to many other projects, *cough DF cough*), and with just as many bug fixes and balance changes is cool. Keep it up!  :)
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 28, 2021, 10:23:02 AM
@SonnaBanana, @ubuntufreakdragon: A lot of that is indeed off-topic; I'm happy to answer, but I'd appreciate it if further discussion of those did not take place in this thread.

Possibly off-topic but any changes to officers/mercs, particularly relating to recruitment and availability?

Not at this point, but iirc I have a few notes of things I want to look at re: mercs. Officer availability seems completely fine to me - though, I suppose one related change - the "promotion candidate" intel will stick around for much longer now, making it more difficult to miss.


Are there any plans for more repair options than full and no repairs?
When you return from exploration 5days from the core with lets say 20-40% CR left on most ships(after a battle against some auto defences) and about 10 days in supplies, and full repair would consume twice the supplies you have, so far common early situation.
The current action would be stop repairs.
Now every few seconds you get struck by an hyper storm, reducing the CR of one logistic ship to 0% allowing accidents, so every few seconds you have to open the fleet screen and resume the repairs for one ship and an in game day later stop them again, a micro hell.
I want an option to limit the amount of CR maximally repaired.

Hmm, no plans for that, no. Perhaps worth noting: you can avoid storm strikes by moving slowly (though of course when you're low on supplies that's not ideal). But I mean you can also avoid storms in the first place.

Just overall, I understand that this can be annoying, but I don't think it comes up often enough to warrant adding a relatively complex UI that will also invite further micromanagement at *other* points in the game. I think this would run the risk of being worse than the original problem, which, honestly - in my personal playtesting, that's happened to me maybe a couple of times total? There are lots of ways to manage things so it doesn't happen, and you can also just absorb an accident or two, since we're usually talking about the home stretch of an expedition returning to core (as you say) so...

I mean, one storm hit, that can happen, but if you're getting ping-ponged by storms strikes every couple of seconds, that's generally something you chose to have happen, right.

There was an idea to mark Neutrino sources on the map if you move enough, will the get an implementation?

Was there? I don't recall seeing that, but regardless, not something I was thinking about doing and - since I'm not familiar with the idea, or at least don't remember anything about it, I don't know what the motivation was behind it, so it's hard to say more.

Will those pirates at the slipstream end be hostile even with high pirate rep?

They won't, no - likewise with Pathers and merc fleets.


Another lurker finally conquering his laziness to register. I just love it how every update upends my ideas about what Star Sector can be. The new skills are nice, I am overjoyed by the new low-tech stuff, but the slipstreams are a completely new and fun-sounding addition, just like the story points. Of course as someone who loves the Onslaught, the low-tech "soft buffs" will be the bestest, very closely followed by the new pirate ships, but seeing the game expand with meaningful mechanisms (as opposed to many other projects, *cough DF cough*), and with just as many bug fixes and balance changes is cool. Keep it up!  :)

Thanky you, and welcome :D
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: ubuntufreakdragon on September 28, 2021, 03:29:08 PM
@SonnaBanana, @ubuntufreakdragon: A lot of that is indeed off-topic; I'm happy to answer, but I'd appreciate it if further discussion of those did not take place in this thread.

Are there any plans for more repair options than full and no repairs?
When you return from exploration 5days from the core with lets say 20-40% CR left on most ships(after a battle against some auto defences) and about 10 days in supplies, and full repair would consume twice the supplies you have, so far common early situation.
The current action would be stop repairs.
Now every few seconds you get struck by an hyper storm, reducing the CR of one logistic ship to 0% allowing accidents, so every few seconds you have to open the fleet screen and resume the repairs for one ship and an in game day later stop them again, a micro hell.
I want an option to limit the amount of CR maximally repaired.

Hmm, no plans for that, no. Perhaps worth noting: you can avoid storm strikes by moving slowly (though of course when you're low on supplies that's not ideal). But I mean you can also avoid storms in the first place.

Just overall, I understand that this can be annoying, but I don't think it comes up often enough to warrant adding a relatively complex UI that will also invite further micromanagement at *other* points in the game. I think this would run the risk of being worse than the original problem, which, honestly - in my personal playtesting, that's happened to me maybe a couple of times total? There are lots of ways to manage things so it doesn't happen, and you can also just absorb an accident or two, since we're usually talking about the home stretch of an expedition returning to core (as you say) so...

I mean, one storm hit, that can happen, but if you're getting ping-ponged by storms strikes every couple of seconds, that's generally something you chose to have happen, right.

I placed a suggestion: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=22762.0
It my main annoyance in complete hyperspace travel.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SonnaBanana on September 28, 2021, 05:33:55 PM
Might slipstreams occurs more frequently or less frequently around/across...... significant regions?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Brainwright on September 28, 2021, 07:54:51 PM
I have to ask, what good are these slipstreams into deep space when you need to remain around the core worlds anyway?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SonnaBanana on September 28, 2021, 08:04:05 PM
I have to ask, what good are these slipstreams into deep space when you need to remain around the core worlds anyway?
They let you travel a bit faster on the average?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Brainwright on September 28, 2021, 08:47:31 PM
They let you travel a bit faster on the average?

The divide between deep and open hyperspace is supposed to do this, too, but once you have the sensors skill, it's less expensive and faster to just plow through deep hyperspace running dark.

Your objectives are random, so there's no guarantee you'll get an objective near a slipstream or open hyperspace.

If the core worlds were turned to, "core," worlds, that is connected by open hyperspace lanes and regular appearance of slipstreams rather than a lack of distance, this mechanic would be far more useful.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Sarissofoi on September 29, 2021, 06:07:33 AM
Not really impressed. I mean its not bad but I don't really see a point.
It would be more make sense to ships actually make paths/stream when they move through hyperspace that need to be maintained by constant movement. So there would be new streams made to new colonies etc.
There could b also some sort of storm breaking ships that make it much easier or opposite device for keeping base secret. 

Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 29, 2021, 09:04:39 AM
I have to ask, what good are these slipstreams into deep space when you need to remain around the core worlds anyway?

Hmm? I suppose you *could* play by remaining around the core worlds, but you absolutely don't need to, and you're missing out on much of the game if you do, so I'm not sure I see where you're coming from.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Megas on September 29, 2021, 10:05:53 AM
Hmm? I suppose you *could* play by remaining around the core worlds, but you absolutely don't need to, and you're missing out on much of the game if you do, so I'm not sure I see where you're coming from.
In short, babysitting problem.

Last release, with non-stop pirate raids that overrun the core worlds if player does not intervene, plus the grinding to fix rep loss from constant expeditions, player did not have much free time for deep fringe exploration (or raiding the hidden Remnant villages for loot) before yet another alert snaps the player back to core before something bad happens (usually pirates overrunning and decivilizing the core worlds).

This release, pirates seemed to have been toned down, but Pathers are fixed so player has another zombie faction to deal with if he plays with cores.  Not sure if majors spam expeditions too fast if Free Port is on like last release.  I do not know for sure if the need for babysitting has been toned down enough if player does everything to maximize power (and profit) and aggravate the sector.

Point is, if player gets an alert and needs to stop and rush back to defend something, it can hurt.  If my colony needs saving, it hurts if it is at the corner of the map instead of near core (and not near a gate or gates are still offline).  If zombie pirates are attacking the core worlds (especially one with low stability in the first place), player may need to stop and save the worlds.

Aside from that, player may want to hang around core worlds to run drugs and supplies from market to market, since it is safe and easy money (when player is too weak to fight bounties), or to raid industry worlds for their blueprints.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on September 29, 2021, 12:28:54 PM
In short, babysitting problem.

Hmm, I don't think so. Even if what you're describing held up in the current release (and I don't think it does! especially if you factor in the benefits to that playstyle that exploration brings), what Brainwright is saying sounds more like a general sort of comment, not something specific to a particular approach.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: SonnaBanana on September 29, 2021, 05:56:48 PM
Will you allow usage of restored Hypertaps to generate or control Slipstreams?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Brainwright on September 29, 2021, 06:52:42 PM
Hmm? I suppose you *could* play by remaining around the core worlds, but you absolutely don't need to, and you're missing out on much of the game if you do, so I'm not sure I see where you're coming from.

First, I need to go to the core worlds to get missions that point me to where useful things are outside of the core worlds.

I actually do have a tendency to wander out into the outer part of the map, and it's pretty grim.  It's how I know paying attention to open hyperspace is pointless.  Seriously, run the calculations some time.  Is it more efficient to travel around a place of dense storms or to plow through it at safe speeds?  As it stands, the straight line is the best option, because all player paths are straight lines from bases of supply.

There are a great many systems that do not have anything at all in them, and evaluating these systems has a consequential cost.   Before the resource efficiency skills come into play, a player may only have enough space to carry the fuel and supplies to get to an exploration mission at the edge of the map without much in the way of extra stops.

You said in a previous thread that placing outposts in the distant part of the map makes them too civilized, but directing the player to places of good salvage through missions isn't substantially different.  Even pirate and Pather bases provide convenient resupply, through trade or raid, but it's all directed through objectives generated by the game.  The truly, "wild," parts of the game are empty and unprofitable to the player.

My suggestion would be to redistribute the core worlds around the map and rework hyperspace so that they are the places with easiest access.  It makes the outer wilds genuinely wild, especially with something like slipstreams that might connect you to places you wouldn't otherwise want to go.

Plus, making the outer wilds a matter of difficult navigation rather than raw distance is just fun.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Hadza on September 30, 2021, 06:24:42 PM
It would be more make sense to ships actually make paths/stream when they move through hyperspace that need to be maintained by constant movement. So there would be new streams made to new colonies etc.

That sure does sound pretty neat, but I don't know if the game generates enough NPC traffic for that to be viable. Maybe mods will change that
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: CupcakeSama on October 01, 2021, 08:06:13 PM
These sound so cool!!!!!!
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: JUDGE! slowpersun on October 04, 2021, 11:09:42 AM
I was joking about the space fog banks, but I have since realized that I forgot to ask a rather important question... now that this game has code that handles/generates "particulate" flowing pixels, as well as code for axial geometry/trig, when do we get (hyper)space hurricanes on top of just regular hyperspace storms??
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: deoxyribonucleicacid on October 05, 2021, 01:14:44 AM
hopefully (hopium) this is a segway to cosmic horrors, like idk some "curious" rogue slipstream that takes you outside the sector and lets you see some hyperspace creatures or who knows possibly.. maybe.. they appear in the slipstreams themselves
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Deshara on October 06, 2021, 01:50:41 AM
slip stream vortexes; a jump point that remains hidden & inert until a slipstream with a sharp narrow bend forms pointing its elbow towards the vortex (or spawned in along with a valid slipstream & then destroyed with it) (or its generated on its own and then occasionally spawns its own slip stream when it decides to go active), & while active it pulls fleets towards & into it when they touch it.

if the vortex is close enough to another system it might just drop you into the far outskirts of that system, otherwise it might drop you into a special super fun system -- the kind of system that might not be connected to the hyperspace network bc its star(s) is a formation & constitution never witnessed by human kind.
Spoiler
stars made of nuclear matter. stars large & hot enough to prevent it from collapsing in on itself but made of dark matter that prevents normal matter from igniting the star leaving it completely invisible to the human eye, but still producing heat from the two types of matter annihilating inside of it as the magnetic forces holding the particles apart fail -- like an antimatter bomb the size of 10 jupiters, that you are now orbiting (hopefully [redacted] never got any ideas of how to make use of one). the remnants of a supermassive star large enough to collapse (after going supernova) past the point of a neutron star but just shy of forming a black hole, leaving a pin-prick sized molecule; a quark star, the weight & energy of a supermassive star but silent, producing no light & unleashing a hellish maelstrom of magnetic forces onto the system around it, like if a nebula system in SS was made entirely out of magnetic storms & solar flares. stars made of color superconducting strange matter, a great inert orb of completely frictionless (stuff analogous to) liquid that you could slam your ship into & it will glide all the way thru to the other side with the same momentum, assuming that you survived the conditions inside of it. A binary system of two stars, one of them antimatter, orbiting eachother too closely with a constant annihilation reaction between them forming a third "star" of far more massive proportions that looks less like a star & more like solar flares of massive proportions, in every direction all of the time.
An active galactic nucleus -- the lit galactic core. An incredibly thick accretion disk larger than the system map (u cant fly far enough out to get out of it, unless Alex really goes hogwild on this one), and in the middle of the "system", from where the primary of a normal system would be all the way out to where the outer exoplanets would be, is one gigantic, stupidly huge black hole -- so large that the only way to navigate the "system" is to circumnavigate; no up down left or right, only clockwise & counterclockwise, and inward or outward. and producing so much energy from the accretion disk falling in that it can be seen from many galaxies away, and importantly to you, most of that energy is being blasted into the accretion disk which absorbs and then re-emits that energy in secondary phases until it eventually bounces its way out into open space. Meaning; it is HOT. You are effectively inside of a hyperstar, lightyears wide. To be clear of how hot it is here; keeping in mind that going from Corvus to Askonia is probably tens of thousands of lightyears, within one lightyear of the AGN there are tens of billions of stars. And you're inside of it. Your tv dinner would cook in minutes
every single word of this post was leading up to that joke. and nobody will have read this far. PS: all of there are (or could be) real, i didnt make any of this up. the universe is(might be) a weird place
[close]
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: 6chad.noirlee9 on October 11, 2021, 11:26:58 AM
perhaps it is not that the slip streams are in line with domain cycles, rather, it is domain cycles that are in line with slip streams.  after all, at one point they must have been used.  cant put gates everywhere without having a reliable means of moving to where you want them to go before one is there.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Locklave on October 12, 2021, 02:04:47 AM
Anything that makes hyperspace less tedious and more interesting, without making it feel like a chore, is a good change.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Sabaton on October 16, 2021, 04:18:54 AM
Well this should make h-space more dynamic. I can't wait to rage quit after my fleet gets pushed into an ordo.... :)

Does slipstream network generation take into account gate position? As in generate further away from gates so slipstreaming doesn't become obsolete once you get the gate key?

Can sensor ghosts be used in system to lure patrols away from points of interests? So that you have a sensor skill dedicated for luring where as go dark and pinging are mostly good for hiding/detecting?  This could make subterfuge missions better without much tinkering.

Can we expect any hull mods to make direct use of slipstreams?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Alex on October 16, 2021, 11:56:21 AM
Well this should make h-space more dynamic. I can't wait to rage quit after my fleet gets pushed into an ordo.... :)

... yeah, that'll probably happen at some point :)

Does slipstream network generation take into account gate position? As in generate further away from gates so slipstreaming doesn't become obsolete once you get the gate key?

It doesn't, but it's randomized enough and there are a number of possible layouts that the randomization is based on, so I don't think that'll be a concern.

Can sensor ghosts be used in system to lure patrols away from points of interests? So that you have a sensor skill dedicated for luring where as go dark and pinging are mostly good for hiding/detecting?  This could make subterfuge missions better without much tinkering.

Sensor ghosts only exist in hyperspace, so no.

Can we expect any hull mods to make direct use of slipstreams?

I don't think so - just in general, I'm not a fan of hullmods that have a usefulness this narrow. I could in theory see, say, giving solar shielding an added effect that boosts slipstream travel somehow, but... I'm not sure that this is very *interesting*. But it's hard to really say without having a specific idea in mind, and it's not something I've given any prior thought.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: JUDGE! slowpersun on October 16, 2021, 02:23:00 PM
Can sensor ghosts be used in system to lure patrols away from points of interests? So that you have a sensor skill dedicated for luring where as go dark and pinging are mostly good for hiding/detecting?  This could make subterfuge missions better without much tinkering.

Sensor ghosts only exist in hyperspace, so no.

That's too bad, a skill that allows you to drop and/or shoot out a sensor decoy(s) for patrols to chase down or at least be distracted by would be cool, although logic to determine when AI uses it might be difficult to code (plus lack of radial gravitational pull around celestial objects means no bank shots due to gravity assist, sadly).

https://youtu.be/GgmsZLaQyJs

Closest video I could find, surprisingly not a Youtube clip of the actual scene... and not bothering to link to a video that will get dropped due to copyright, pointless.

EDIT:  As of today's (11/5) announcement for pre-patch notes, an in-game variation of this option should be added with the next patch:

  • Increased length of time patrols are willing to pursue for
    • Primarly, this makes it more possible to distract them and go around
  • Added "introduce false readings" option to sensor arrays
    • Patrols and similar fleets may go to investiage these

Can we expect any hull mods to make direct use of slipstreams?

I don't think so - just in general, I'm not a fan of hullmods that have a usefulness this narrow. I could in theory see, say, giving solar shielding an added effect that boosts slipstream travel somehow, but... I'm not sure that this is very *interesting*. But it's hard to really say without having a specific idea in mind, and it's not something I've given any prior thought.

Alternatively, instead of doing any hull mods for slipstreams, maybe drop fuel savings in slipstreams to like 25%, but add 10% slipstream fleet fuel reduction to Ox ship (since burn levels bonus will be less useful with addition of slipstreams).
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Inhilicon on October 16, 2021, 06:04:02 PM
You know, I always felt like there should be a way to go faster in hyperspace. And here we are! It seems very useful and fun.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Legendsmith on October 20, 2021, 08:20:33 AM
So much in this post, I love it. The slipstreams are something I've been wishing for basically from the moment the larger hyperspace map was added; travel was so boring, I know myself and others ended up just flying straight through storms and deep hyperspace after a bit because there was nothing to interact with. Just hold shift to go slower through storms, that's all you have to do. Nothing interactive. No 'trade lanes' to ambush freighters on. No fast routes to brave, or get raided by pirates on.
But that seems to be changing now! I really hope that the pirate base interaction mechanics lead to pirates ambushing freighters often, and that threat to players. I want that to be a real consideration when a player departs a port. Because at the moment it feels like you don't need to consider escorts if you just avoid flying through actual pirate territory. This is also why trade, I assume, has had such 60% combined tariffs; because there's no risk involved otherwise.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: boogiebogus on October 22, 2021, 10:48:03 AM
After some thinking, I'm really not sure how a feel about this addition, to be honest. The main problem, I think, is the fact that there's not much of a reason to take a slipstream path outside of the core more than once. Most of the time, when I go exploring, I haul enough supplies and cargo space to last several months outside of the core, and sweep a large quantity of the outer stars - 15 to 25 percent, generally - in a single exploration trip. And usually, that space has gates nicely distributed throughout the entire thing, so I can hop between the core and the fringe at a moment's notice, so there's no need to traverse long sections of empty hyperspace. This means that the only real use would be to take a slipstream going away from the core to start a trip. Plus, the fact that slipstreams randomize every now and then means that if it does happen to bridge a gap between a gate and a system I want to return to, that would only last a short time, so I may not be taking that lane ever again.

I feel like one solution would be to reshape and split up the core. Cut down on the number of gates, and instead have slipstreams form trade lanes between star clusters. You could even make some areas that aren't so civilized, like the pather controlled planets, exist in out-of-the-way clusters that are unlikely to be bothered. I think it'd make travel in the core more interesting, too - you'd have to work out the order you hit each market in with the direction of slipstreams as a consideration, too.

Overall, neat feature - but it doesn't feel like it'd see as much use as one would like from players.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: noman on October 31, 2021, 12:15:18 AM
Does campaign story going to expand with this new feature?
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Cosmitz on November 03, 2021, 01:56:49 AM
The one thing i could think of while reading this entire post was this, done by Heaven's Vault, and i'm sorry if it was already said/linked: https://youtu.be/weX_c-kxREs?t=1435

Quote
And, finally, a big feature of the system is that the general flow direction of the streams is seasonal. In the first half of the cycle, they tend to flow to the galactic east (which is like the regular east, but in hyperspace), while in the second half of the cycle, they generally flow west. This is another thing that the player can learn and plan their expeditions around.

One might ask, “but why is slipstream flow synchronized with the Domain cycle, which is an arbitrary human construct?”

This is my favorite thing. Somethings things should just be, and it makes it more a part of the world when nature feels natural, if you know what i mean.

Quote
Not really impressed. I mean its not bad but I don't really see a point.

To be fair.. even with Hyperspace storms, travel seemed... solvable? I guess. When you had enough resources to just steamroll through hyperspace, as long as the circle for fuel use lined up with where you wanted to get to, and back, you'd be good (maybe with some extra supply use). But i like this 'fuzzyfing' of the knowable quantity of hyperspace travel. Anything that causes the player to make his own mistakes which generate stories is absolutely, positively, always a good idea.


In any case, great stuff, and while i didn't really delve too much in the current 0.95a, just for this i'm promising a full juicy run of the next version.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: Mosthra on November 14, 2021, 12:22:40 AM
Can this have an effect on the economics of the systems and regions it passes through or is near? Fast and efficient travel could aid merchant fleets Who of the factions and their economic development contained?  ;D  It will have a big impact on Ai and the gameplay and later expansion and colony selection. It will be very lively and bustling if along these rivers are crowded with fleet and colonies. It will become a kind of silk road in space.
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: JUDGE! slowpersun on December 03, 2021, 02:15:46 PM
It will become a kind of silk road in space.

More like the North Atlantic Current/North Atlantic Oscillation.  Or at least the seasonal shifts of mostly wind for historical Arab trading dhows in the Indian Ocean.  Wind isn't the only thing that moves ships, but much more easily controlled than water currents... just also much less predictable.  Still, can't wait for hyperspace hurricanes!
Title: Re: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts
Post by: MightyChristian on December 08, 2021, 08:30:17 PM
I like the wormhole idea :D nice update Alex.

Quote
I don't think so - just in general, I'm not a fan of hullmods that have a usefulness this narrow. I could in theory see, say, giving solar shielding an added effect that boosts slipstream travel somehow, but... I'm not sure that this is very *interesting*. But it's hard to really say without having a specific idea in mind, and it's not something I've given any prior thought.

In response to who you quoted- I suppose I personally am not thinking these wormholes would have any negative affect or damage to your ship, then it would't be worth it to travel through such wormholes if they are not convenient.