Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Sly on September 21, 2021, 05:31:55 PM
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I've posted this in a couple other threads, but for more visibility I figure I ought to just make a suggestion thread for it.
I agree unquestionably that any countermeasure dealing direct damage to a ship under phase cloak is unacceptable for a gross of reasons I have no intention of going into here. Additionally, I agree that in 0.95a skills that affect phase ships are extreme, again for reasons laid out by other esteemed members of the community. Finally, given Alex's immaculate track record, I have a strong belief he will create an excellent end state in the next release.
All that being said, I still wholeheartedly suggest the following:
It's a bit odd that there's absolutely no anti-phase weaponry in Starsector - at all. A prototype modification to the venerable Salamander Missile would fit thematically within the growing lore of the game and provide a bit of relief for fleets dealing with Phase Ships. The Prototype being:
The Salamander Type-2, an otherwise stat-for-stat copy of the original Salamander with an additional cost of 1 OP. It only targets ships that are under cloak. Naturally, it *only* targets Phase Ships - but only while cloaked. When it strikes, it functions identically to an ordinary Salamander, inflicting EMP to whatever systems within the AoE of the missile strike. This would ideally apply to engines, but a crafty pilot could instead eat it on any face they choose - or simply uncloak to evade it entirely.
Being struck at low flux would be a mild inconvenience, but against something like an Afflictor or a Harbinger that have already fired their burst, it could be fatal. Additionally, striking true on a Doom might mean it couldn't retreat in time to avoid a long range salvo from a few angry Cruisers or Capitals. At the very least, it could cripple some of its forward facing firepower for a brief period.
In my opinion, this sort of soft touch countermeasure is the sort of addition Starsector needs. I can't say yet how fast P-Ships will be in the next patch, so it may be necessary to increase the RoF of the Type 2 to match the time dilation of P-Ships, in order to match the increased OP cost and how quickly a P-Ship will recover. Frankly, I'd be excited to see it at all with a Salamander's base RoF. Naturally, an MRM version would be icing on the cake.
A potential issue I can see is using an ordinary Salamander, or Ion Beam and a Type-2 in concert with one another to keep P-Ships locked down. However, given the fact that P-Ships are the ones who choose engagements, and given that P-Ships would still have multiple options for dealing with a Type-2, I don't see it being a major problem. The whole point is to mildly suppress P-Ships and run down their PPT, after all.
As someone who loves to pilot Phase Ships, I would welcome the occasional added wrinkle a Type-2 to would give me.
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I'm kind of torn about this suggestion. As overpowered as phase ships are, I'm not too sure if adding a weapon that can just casually bypass their cloak is a good idea. I'd be like making regular salamander ignore shields, or adding an EMP weapon that goes through them. Yes, I am aware of the Tachyon Lance and the Ion Beam, but these need to be combo'ed with a kinetic weapon to work, where as an "anti-phase-ship salamander" would be just "press L1 to disable ship/force a decloak".
Regular Salamander can also be shot down by PD of the target ship when approaching. What am I supposed to do when someone shoots Salamander MK2 at me? I can't shoot it down, cause PD doesn't work while cloaked. The only option is to accept the EMP damage, or decloak.
On the other hand, that could be a decent way to curb the frustrating "approach cloaked, dump your ship abilities, back out cloaked" thing that phase ships tend to do. Isn't that their thing though? Should there really be a hard counter to that?
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Omni-shields and beam weapons shut down phase ships pretty hard. Pilum and fighter saturation also works. Even without specialized loadouts, covering ship's backs with escort orders so there isn't anywhere safe to decloak in helps mitigate the jump in, jump out behavior of phase ships.
Player-controlled ships can also bait ships out of phase and blow them up while phase cooldown happens.
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Regular Salamander can also be shot down by PD of the target ship when approaching. What am I supposed to do when someone shoots Salamander MK2 at me? I can't shoot it down, cause PD doesn't work while cloaked. The only option is to accept the EMP damage, or decloak.
On the other hand, that could be a decent way to curb the frustrating "approach cloaked, dump your ship abilities, back out cloaked" thing that phase ships tend to do. Isn't that their thing though? Should there really be a hard counter to that?
You raise a good point, what can you do when it's fired at you? Typically I'd imagine you would have three options:
1. Take the hit and sit under time dilation while your engines or weapons come back online. Not all of your weapons or engines may have been disabled, depending on where you were hit. Insulated Engines can help with this. During this, in real time, the ship that fired the Type 2 still has to reload a missile. If you possess any skills or mods to mitigate your repair time, the impact is further lessened.
2. Grab some distance or cover (another ship, rock, or convenient weapon arc blind) and drop cloak briefly. It sails off at high speed under time dilation, never to be seen again. Granted, this is probably harder to do 1v1, but that's usually academic.
3. Spin. It's trying to hit your engines. Don't let it see your engines. It can be tricky to do and maintain your target, but it's definitely doable in a frigate or a skilled/upgraded destroyer.
If none of these sound appealing to you, then I understand. It's only my intention to demonstrate that this isn't a hard counter, only a soft one.
Omni-shields and beam weapons shut down phase ships pretty hard. Pilum and fighter saturation also works. Even without specialized loadouts, covering ship's backs with escort orders so there isn't anywhere safe to decloak in helps mitigate the jump in, jump out behavior of phase ships.
Player-controlled ships can also bait ships out of phase and blow them up while phase cooldown happens.
I agree with all of this. I can send in one or two medium or large beam-equipped ships after a Phase Ship or use it as an escort as you described. I love fighters for this purpose, too. I dislike the gamey tedium of baiting phase ships to uncloak, however effective it is. Pilum spam is fine in engagements against enemies without point defenses, usually a waste of OP when they do.
I would like the option of sending my fighters elsewhere to escort another ship being attacked by fighters, or to cover bombers, or any other task than slowly chasing down a P-Ship and chipping away at it. I'm more than happy leading fighters into a point defense boat, while cloaked. With a Doom, they may as well not exist at all. I'd also like those beam equipped escort ships to be supporting other ships on the front line, or flanking some frontal shield juggernaut.
Neither of us mentioned this in our posts, but I'd like to add I'd like my low tech ships to have the option of equipping themselves with a Type-2 so they'd at least slow down P-Ships, at the cost of their overall firepower. As much as I love the Enforcer, it's omni shield is rather flimsy, especially in the face of high burst damage.
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Specialized anti-phase weapons are not the solution.
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Specialized anti-phase weapons are not the solution.
I think there has been a misunderstanding. I'm not proposing a solution to the current state of P-Ships. Alex and other, more dedicated members of the community have already proposed and likely implemented a solution into the next version of the game.
I suggest this weapon knowing that the skills affecting P-Ships will be changed. Unless P-Ships themselves are somehow gutted further - unreasonably so - I still recommend it.
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Hmmm I don't want weapons that can do damage to ships in phase, but harassment is another matter. Considering that Salamanders often become obsolete once battles get crowded, I kind of want to see this suggestion added to regular salamanders (target/track phase ships, explode with a pure EMP charge) rather than have a dedicated weapon. Like Sly points out there are ways for a pilot targeted by this to effectively deal with it and the effects are temporary, unlike effects that would actually deal damage.
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Salamanders are weird enough already I think you could reasonably hand wave why only they can EMP phased ships, but I guarantee we would still be bombarded by legions of people wondering why weapon X doesn't also affect phased ships.
Also, keep in mind that phase ships can always move while phased, even if all their engines are disabled.
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The issue with pure anti-phase weapons will always be that having OP that is completely useless except against phase ships is hard to justify, and the weapons will have to be very effective to be worthwhile, but then they become oppressive for phase ships. I'm not sure if you can really strike a good balance there.
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I kind of want to see this suggestion added to regular salamanders (target/track phase ships, explode with a pure EMP charge) rather than have a dedicated weapon.
The issue with pure anti-phase weapons will always be that having OP that is completely useless except against phase ships is hard to justify, and the weapons will have to be very effective to be worthwhile, but then they become oppressive for phase ships. I'm not sure if you can really strike a good balance there.
I think that's a great idea, Thaago! Target a non-phase ship and it fires the ordinary Salamander. Target a Phase Ship and it fires in Type-2 mode. No need for a player to worry about toggling the mode: keeps the same method of use with added functionality.
I'm probably in a minority, but I would feel justified having a separate Type-2 version on the odd escort Lasher, Condor, or Drover and let them piggyback something better armed and more vulnerable. However, having a dual-purpose Salamander sounds way better than deciding between two versions.
Keep in mind that phase ships can always move while phased, even if all their engines are disabled.
I never noticed that before. That would definitely have to be addressed for this suggestion to have any legs. Or kneecaps.
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Hmm - I wonder, is this suggestion (and discussion!) considering the upcoming phase cloak changes, outlined in this (https://fractalsoftworks.com/2021/07/15/skill-changes-part-2/) post?
I *think* the changes should add up to enough counter-play through more conventional means, without requiring something specialized.
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Alex, is the reason you're holding off on telling us what Cybernetic Augmentation does is because it involves entirely new mechanics doesn't it?
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Alex, is the reason you're holding off on telling us what Cybernetic Augmentation does is because it involves entirely new mechanics doesn't it?
That's completely off-topic for this thread! And the primary reason is - gotta leave a little mystery in there, you know? :-X
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Alex, is the reason you're holding off on telling us what Cybernetic Augmentation does is because it involves entirely new mechanics doesn't it?
That's completely off-topic for this thread! And the primary reason is - gotta leave a little mystery in there, you know? :-X
Good point.
But you didn't deny what I said. :p
On-topic: Forget anti-phase missile, grant PCL's and Flashes anti-phase capabilities.
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The issue with pure anti-phase weapons will always be that having OP that is completely useless except against phase ships is hard to justify, and the weapons will have to be very effective to be worthwhile, but then they become oppressive for phase ships. I'm not sure if you can really strike a good balance there.
Who says the weapon has to be a purely anti-phase weapon? It could be multi-role.
Everyone here seems to be under the impression that an anti-phase missile would deal hull damage or cause flameouts. At least in real life, depth charges could do one of two things: either crack open the hull of the submarine, or damage it so much to force it to surface, at which point it would either surrender or get destroyed. Damage is clearly not favorable for gameplay here in Starsector, but you could force it to surface by having the missile detonate while over the phased ship and raise it's flux level. It harms the phase ship by reducing the amount of time it can loiter around (therefore, spend less time being a constant threat that can surface at any time) and, at the extreme end, force it to overload in a very vulnerable position. P-space disruption warhead with incidental real-space effects, maybe? Like I said, multi-role!
In a regular ship vs missile scenario, the target ship has a number of options: take the hit with shields, take the hit with your hull, shoot it down, or dodge. In the case of a phase ship vs anti-phase missile, the options are similar: take the hit with your flux pool, unphase and take the hit with your hull, unphase and shoot it down, or dodge. The middle two options are clearly the poorest choices, as unphasing takes time and opens up you up to hits, but phase ships make up for this in their ability to dodge due to exceptional speed and maneuverability while in phase because of time dilation. A missile with carefully designed maneuverability, damage, ammo, and fire rate could be a fairly balanced weapon against phase ships without being a hard counter.
As a couple of examples, maybe a missile with the maneuverability of a Harpoon that deals 500 energy damage to real-space targets, and 2500 damage directly to the flux pool of p-space targets. Most phase ships could probably dodge that unless pressed, at which point it's effectiveness jumps just like regular missiles being used on a vulnerable target. Or you could go with a system like Annihilator - the small one that fires a wide burst. You're not going to land the entire spread on target, but it denies an area to the phased ship that it can't enter without taking a flux hit. Works fine against real-space targets, too.
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Hmm - I wonder, is this suggestion (and discussion!) considering the upcoming phase cloak changes, outlined in this (https://fractalsoftworks.com/2021/07/15/skill-changes-part-2/) post?
I *think* the changes should add up to enough counter-play through more conventional means, without requiring something specialized.
For my part I always soak up blog posts like water in a desert. Whether or not the changes are exactly as you outlined, I'm confident they'll be a big step in the right direction. The Type-2 - which is entirely supplemental to that - has potential to shake things up in a positive way.
Dive in deep with a calculated Adaptive Phase Coil attack while any potential Salamanders are reloading, like a scalpel, and cut them in half.
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The delicious Phase Anchor brawler sliding in close and dodging the missiles skillfully while under increased time dilation, whipping the slower missile(s) around like a cheap toy. I'm sure other pilots have enjoyed "lassoing" Salamanders around their SO frigates like I have. It's a real chef's kiss moment.
Naturally, the AI isn't as good as a player at performing these feats, usually. It also usually has numerical superiority to make up for that, though. And unless I equip all of my ships with Salamanders, there are going to be holes in my somewhat flimsy screen.
If the Salamander is made dual purpose, there will be holes no matter what, since I wouldn't expect my allies to reserve them purely for Anti-Phase purposes. It's the one downside to the dual purpose model. If instead there are two types of Salamanders, the issue becomes that I've assigned a weapon to a ship that may rarely see any use, but it will always be available for its chosen role.
I've come to believe that Thaago and intrinsic_parity have the right of it and making the Salamander a dual purpose missile is the right move. Not only does it increase the use-by-level date of the weapon, it actually dampens the countering strength somewhat by allowing AI ships and Players to sacrifice targeting a P-Ship for a realspace target instead, allowing a P-Ship to slip in at the right moment like the Assassin Build. It's pretty appealing.
Who says the weapon has to be a purely anti-phase weapon? It could be multi-role.
If P-Ships had three or four times higher flux pools than they do now I would be interested, because it might be necessary. As things stand now, I'd really just prefer to hit P-Ships with a pure EMP, knock out a few systems, and let them sink some Flux and PPT into dealing with it. Potentially overloading a P-Ship and denying freedom of movement wouldn't be fun, especially after the upcoming changes. The only "damage" to flux I'd want P-Ships to accrue would be the pilot choosing to remain cloaked, so it remains entirely in their hands.
For me, one of the best parts of piloting a P-Ship is the ability to go anywhere on the battlefield and attack from any angle, forcing the enemy to play by *my* rhythm, if only in a small way.
With a phased Salamander that freedom isn't denied, just complicated. A soft touch.