They are more broken then you could ever imagine.From playing around with unlimited missiles ships, pairing them against a few big ships heavily favours them. Where they struggle tends to be against more numerous ships. They'll still take out on or two very quickly, but they can also get surrounded and overwhelmed very quick. Of course, loadout also makes a massive difference in performance.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.
And raise DP to 60+. It seems to be on par with the likes of Radiant or Ziggurat. If unlimited missiles are a problem, remove that hullmod when recovered (as done with Ziggurat's improved purple motes).
They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.
They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.
Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?
They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.
Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?
I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)
All smalls are hybrids. No sabots, sorry. You only have two mediums for them.And that's where you put your sabot racks in. They shoot way faster than pods and it's irrelevant that you will be out of ammo in a second or two, because in another second or two it will be all regenerated.
All smalls are hybrids. No sabots, sorry. You only have two mediums for them.And that's where you put your sabot racks in. They shoot way faster than pods and it's irrelevant that you will be out of ammo in a second or two, because in another second or two it will be all regenerated.
All smalls are hybrids. No sabots, sorry. You only have two mediums for them.And that's where you put your sabot racks in. They shoot way faster than pods and it's irrelevant that you will be out of ammo in a second or two, because in another second or two it will be all regenerated.
They are mentioned right after that. And reload takes 10 seconds.
Burst wise it is way more than the Guardian (4x9+2x4=44 missiles in 4.5 sec against 2x9=18 in the same amount of time). Strike wise it is 8 missiles in a single volley.I'm not entirely sure what you even mean by "burst". Aurora can do this only once and use up all it's small sabot while guardian is allowed to keep this DPS until running out of PPT.
Unfortunately it doesn't matter that you could theoretically fire 9 every ten seconds, because the AI still thinks in terms of "I can fire 9. Total."
All smalls are hybrids. No sabots, sorry. You only have two mediums for them.And that's where you put your sabot racks in. They shoot way faster than pods and it's irrelevant that you will be out of ammo in a second or two, because in another second or two it will be all regenerated.
They are mentioned right after that. And reload takes 10 seconds.
Are you simply unaware of the missile spec + rack pushing the stock of one small sabot to 9 missiles (which reloads per 10 second)?
That's translates to 1800 kinetic DPS if you just leave them auto fire to the oblivion, or bind them linked to your other mounts to force fire.
The point is, they never run out thanks to the magic hullmod, providing ridiculous flux free damage.Burst wise it is way more than the Guardian (4x9+2x4=44 missiles in 4.5 sec against 2x9=18 in the same amount of time). Strike wise it is 8 missiles in a single volley.I'm not entirely sure what you even mean by "burst". Aurora can do this only once and use up all it's small sabot while guardian is allowed to keep this DPS until running out of PPT.
Guardian is not made to burst, but made to last. If you have ever tried it even just in variant editor you would have known how stupidly good it is given you don't suck at fitting a ship.
And two sabot pods is a very... unremarkable number for a capital ship. Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout.A proof of you totally don't understand the reloading being the OP part. It's not just a random capital but a behemoth that can reload ALL missiles in 10 seconds.
36k shield damage before reload is about an average Brilliant flux capacity. Per 10 seconds. Capital destroying single cruiser per 10 seconds is, again, nothing remarkable. 4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.I mean, lmao, are you using a guardian with ONLY two sabot racks? What are you even doing math upon?
4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.I don't even want to judge this one as it simply proves you don't know how to fit a ship for AI.
This "once" means that there will be one Radiant (or Guardian for that matter) less. And there is no problem with deploying 30 DP Aurora against either Radiant or Guardian. Each one. Even 40 DP as currently is.Yes, please, solo a radiant with just an aurora. If you have wasted all that OP on sabots I doubt how you can break it's armor, not to mention hull.
Practically speaking, Guardian's "to last" is just a cool euphemism to hide that its limited burst makes it strong only against enemies what are tier or two below it. It is understandable given its task of repelling exploration/salvaging fleets. However it is a downside compared to the true machines of war. Made not to last but to get the job done.Limited burst ... lol ... limited ...
Make some effort to actually read it.Make some effort to actually try it in game.
I mean you're basically trolling or trying to justify making Guardian a player usable ship atm.
And two sabot pods is a very... unremarkable number for a capital ship. Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout.A proof of you totally don't understand the reloading being the OP part. It's not just a random capital but a behemoth that can reload ALL missiles in 10 seconds.
36k shield damage before reload is about an average Brilliant flux capacity. Per 10 seconds. Capital destroying single cruiser per 10 seconds is, again, nothing remarkable. 4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.I mean, lmao, are you using a guardian with ONLY two sabot racks? What are you even doing math upon?
For it's 1000 + easily another 500 vent it can mount another two storm needler without sweating and on top of that, two hammer barrages packing a little more than "merely" 2k HE DPS with no skills, and 1.5x that with missile spec.
4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.I don't even want to judge this one as it simply proves you don't know how to fit a ship for AI.
This "once" means that there will be one Radiant (or Guardian for that matter) less. And there is no problem with deploying 30 DP Aurora against either Radiant or Guardian. Each one. Even 40 DP as currently is.Yes, please, solo a radiant with just an aurora. If you have wasted all that OP on sabots I doubt how you can break it's armor, not to mention hull.
Practically speaking, Guardian's "to last" is just a cool euphemism to hide that its limited burst makes it strong only against enemies what are tier or two below it. It is understandable given its task of repelling exploration/salvaging fleets. However it is a downside compared to the true machines of war. Made not to last but to get the job done.Limited burst ... lol ... limited ...
Practically speaking you're using an entire ship's worth of ordnance in comparison of just two racks of Guardian not to mention it has the plasma burn system to catch up with even frigates, and the advanced targeting computer to shred things at range. It has second to onslaught armor and formidable hull as well. Even without infinite missile, these figures would easily make it at 60+ DP since it's effectively a low tech version of radiant.
They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.
Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?
I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)
Make some effort to actually read it.Make some effort to actually try it in game.
Your argument was:They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.
Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?
I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)
Missiles. Have anything more to say on the matter?
Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout.As a matter of fact, small sabot racks provide both better DPS and better burst damage on a Guardian, hands down, there is no dispute.
Your argument was:They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.
Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?
I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)
Missiles. Have anything more to say on the matter?
I think, your problem is then the lack of reading comprehension.
Did I mention a word about it's "maximum" DPS or "total" DPS?
Or do you not agree that the fabric of the battle is flux war?
Despite you mentioning the 10 second recharge it's totally not an excuse to state
Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout.As a matter of fact, small sabot racks provide both better DPS and better burst damage on a Guardian, hands down, there is no dispute.
The only explanation you could've said that is you have never tested it.
Oh and how adorable is your fit, using obviously OP weapon namely cryoblaster. Mind using something more standard?
I was honestly expecting a SO fit. Your current fit can only YOLO and not even guaranteed to alpha overload a radiant.
Not sure what your officer skills and personality, but putting these up in AI wars the auroras got slaughtered by either of the variant. They are just sand bags after the initial sabots failed to overload the radiant and the rest is history.
Player-piloted Guardian is pretty much impossible to kill, even if it lost unlimited missiles. High fire-power + ATC + system-granted speed means it can kite whole fleets to death with ease.
Frankly, I don't like the way it exists currently - teasing the player with an inaccessible eye-candy of this quality is just cruel. AI doesn't make use of ship's properties anyway, so there is no need for Guardian to be what it is as an AI-controlled boss.
I like the idea of getting the Guardian, as long as the missile recovery special is removed of courseAh yes, just gut the very thing that makes it interesting and unique.
Edit: Damn, I just read the other replies and what's with all the hostility. The weirdest part is that the main issue seems to be the regenerating missiles but right in the initial post it said suggested getting rid of that. As for the mention of kiting, it has to face forwards to shoot so it can't really use plasma jets effectively making it just 40 speed, the only thing it could kite is the Paragon.
If anyone still thinks it's over powered, just go to wiki and compare Guardian vs Radiant.
With missile autoforge it’s beyond brokenThat is a claim, not a fact.
This is a fact, not a claim.QuoteWith missile autoforge it’s beyond brokenThat is a claim, not a fact.
I do aware. It is clear from what I wrote. Make some effort to actually read it.
I think, your problem is then the lack of reading comprehension.
...
Oh and how adorable is your fit, using obviously OP weapon namely cryoblaster. Mind using something more standard?
I mean you're basically trolling
I like the idea of getting the Guardian, as long as the missile recovery special is removed of courseAh yes, just gut the very thing that makes it interesting and unique.
I just took Guardian for a spin and it isn't inconcievable that it could solo an ordo on its own (eventually), but it's nowhere as easy as it was with Doom.
Guardian can use ballistic and it makes the entire world of difference.I just took Guardian for a spin and it isn't inconcievable that it could solo an ordo on its own (eventually), but it's nowhere as easy as it was with Doom.
This is what to be expected. With current skill/officer distribution system ship's capabilities defined mostly by the basic hull stats. Such as flux and speed. Guardian have rather mediocre (for a supposedly "super" ship) effective shielding and dissipation. Mobility is above average but after single use of PJ you gain less distance than Radiant gets out of all its teleport charges. And without mobility system it is just another 40 speed capital. This is even worse than Conquest kiting the Paragon scenario when the certain battlecruiser is enjoying speed advantage even without use of its mobility system. Although fight is still taking too long.
Guardian can use ballistic and it makes the entire world of difference.I just took Guardian for a spin and it isn't inconcievable that it could solo an ordo on its own (eventually), but it's nowhere as easy as it was with Doom.
This is what to be expected. With current skill/officer distribution system ship's capabilities defined mostly by the basic hull stats. Such as flux and speed. Guardian have rather mediocre (for a supposedly "super" ship) effective shielding and dissipation. Mobility is above average but after single use of PJ you gain less distance than Radiant gets out of all its teleport charges. And without mobility system it is just another 40 speed capital. This is even worse than Conquest kiting the Paragon scenario when the certain battlecruiser is enjoying speed advantage even without use of its mobility system. Although fight is still taking too long.
Paragon is stuck in energy large which means it either can fit lances to outrange everyone but can only use two HVD to deal hard flux damage, or use autopulse and get outranged by even onslaught.
However, guardian has enough flux to support two Mjolnir, which means it has the best long range hard flux dps in the entire game even without missile autoforge. If desired, it can theoretically support two gauss with dedicated fit. What does that mean? With an officer in .95.1 it may outrange an autopulse high tech station. Absolute bonkers.
The Guardian is the only ship that can have a large weapon of every type, it also has the same number of large mounts as the conquest but instead of thermal pulse cannons you can have missiles for even more insane burst. It's armour is almost the same as the conquests and it's flux is almost the same as the paragons.I like the idea of getting the Guardian, as long as the missile recovery special is removed of courseAh yes, just gut the very thing that makes it interesting and unique.
And without mobility system it is just another 40 speed capital.What does that matter? It's not as if you can not take the system. It's enough that Guardian can live where Conquest dies overwhelmed, unable to kite Remnants.
Guardian without autoforge is literally the low tech version of Radiant (identical hull, identical flux cap, 5 larges)Omnidirectional mobility ship system, a mix of ballistics and energy weapons... It's a midline version of Radiant, not low-tech!
Remember that a player with Guardian flagship will only have seven points left for the other three trees. It would not get two more tier 5 skills.
And someone who gets Automated Ships but not Neural Link will just get a beatstick that will charge into battle and maybe run away only when it is losing the flux war.
As for phase skimmer and plasma burn, Aurora can eventually overtake and kill Medusa. And if player gets Systems Expertise, he will not have enough for Missile Specialization or Best of the Best, because eight are already taken by both Automated Ships and Neural Link.
One reason why I like Guardian to be recoverable is it gets tiring of using Radiant, Radiant, and more Radiant for Automated Ships because Radiant is too good (or rather, the only ship worth taking Automated Ships for instead of getting a better tier 5 skill), and the other Automated Ships are nothing special compared to the best human ships of their class. Remnant frigates are frustrating to pilot (Lumen is Scarab without time shift, Glimmer is old omni-shield Wolf without skimmer). Remnant destroyers are... bleh! Brilliant is okay but nothing special - just an evil Apogee with a bay instead of cargo capacity. Also, would be nice if there was a Remnant battlecruiser (or possibly Doom clone), something midway between Brilliant and Radiant.
And without mobility system it is just another 40 speed capital.What does that matter? It's not as if you can not take the system. It's enough that Guardian can live where Conquest dies overwhelmed, unable to kite Remnants.
If I wanted Systems Expertise for faster jet recharge, it would be more likely for escaping swarms. Guardian is vulnerable to getting swarmed by a mob of fast ships. However, chasing ships down is still good against the cowardly AI. Chasing cowardly ships until they get cornered is annoying. Aurora is faster than Medusa, but it still take some time to catch up, and Guardian is slower than Aurora.
As for tier 5...
Systems Expertise would be good if player wanted to pilot other automated ships (but player who gets both Tech 5 skills will likely pilot the capitals).
Missile Specialization is probably irrelevant for Guardian that still has unlimited missiles, but if that gets stripped, then Missile Spec. would be good.
Best of the Best as Spec.Mods successor needs no explanation.
As for the new other Leader 5 skill, since Guardian will probably cost a huge lot of DP, stronger redshirts probably means little if there is not enough DP left to deploy enough extra ships... unless Guardian costs so much CR to deploy (like Ziggurat) that it cannot chain battle, and it must sit like a hangar queen and let other ships fight successive battles (kind of problematic in a red system with several multi-Radiant Ordos after your fleet.)
Hull Restoration is to make inevitable deaths less painful when your stupid AI ships blow themselves up (or reckless player gets in over his head). For players who give up combat power for QoL.
No comment on DC.
P.S. I have not tried this, but if Ziggurat costs so CR to deploy, then perhaps an easy way to kill it at Alpha Site is to deploy some ships then retreat a few times to drain its CR, then fight it while it is crippled at zero CR. If that works, and Guardian gains massive CR loss per deployment as a balancing mechanism, then Guardian losing too much CR from deployment might make it a lame boss if player catches on.
P.P.S. My point was if player goes double tech 5, then he only gets to pick one other tier 5 skill, so no munching with multiple non-Tech tier 5 skills. BotB would probably be the likely third pick, though.
Rift cascade only generate one rift at max range. It requires 200 range for every additional rift and it only deal as much hard flux as autopulse at autopulse range.
Phase skimmer has only 300 base range and 450 at SE.
Spamming all 4 gives 1800 range and it takes 6.66 seconds to recharge each charge.
On the other hand, plasma jets has 80 average speed increment over 6 seconds time span and 3.33 seconds cooldown, not that far off. Helmsman could help with this (increased acceleration).
Phase skimmer has more burst potential but is roughly on par with plasma jets in extensive use. Not to mention phase skimmer forces shield down.
Guardian has a 25k flux pool, same as Radiant, not sure what you're gonna use to insta delete Guardian.
Guardian without autoforge is literally the low tech version of Radiant (identical hull, identical flux cap, 5 larges)
It is generating hard flux, yes, but have you checked how pathetic it is if only one rift it generated?
Rift cascade beam is a CQC weapon in first place.
Also, are you using console command or some other mods to summon all the desired omega weapons or what?
I don’t think a “standard” fit should be using omega weapons in first place. They are good to have and some are OP, meanwhile they are not guaranteed to be obtained especially large ones.
You may theory craft anything of course but that’s just unrealistic.
You are also missing solar shielding, hardened shield and the shield modulation in your formula. If you were to fight remnants it’s common sense to use solar shielding. You also did not take combat readiness induced increased shield efficiency into account.
On top of that, the missile spams and the short time your shield off after teleport has high chance getting weapons shut down by either sabot emp or hammer torp brute force damage. It’s bold to assume you may have full damage when you’re in range.
Just to make sure, we’re talking about player radiant efficiency versus player guardian efficiency. A guardian with autoforge can mop up an entire ordo. Can a lone radiant do that? Radiant is going to be 60 DP next patch, so if radiant can’t do that we’re looking at at least Ziggurat or more DP cost to be “balanced” for a “vanilla” guardian.
Weird, I only got 3 larges last run defeating both hypershunts and the bounty.It is generating hard flux, yes, but have you checked how pathetic it is if only one rift it generated?
Rift cascade beam is a CQC weapon in first place.
Also, are you using console command or some other mods to summon all the desired omega weapons or what?
I don’t think a “standard” fit should be using omega weapons in first place. They are good to have and some are OP, meanwhile they are not guaranteed to be obtained especially large ones.
You may theory craft anything of course but that’s just unrealistic.
You are also missing solar shielding, hardened shield and the shield modulation in your formula. If you were to fight remnants it’s common sense to use solar shielding. You also did not take combat readiness induced increased shield efficiency into account.
On top of that, the missile spams and the short time your shield off after teleport has high chance getting weapons shut down by either sabot emp or hammer torp brute force damage. It’s bold to assume you may have full damage when you’re in range.
Just to make sure, we’re talking about player radiant efficiency versus player guardian efficiency. A guardian with autoforge can mop up an entire ordo. Can a lone radiant do that? Radiant is going to be 60 DP next patch, so if radiant can’t do that we’re looking at at least Ziggurat or more DP cost to be “balanced” for a “vanilla” guardian.
Taking into account the difference between Paragon and Guardian flux capabilities it is not so pathetic.
No. On average, you are supposed to get 1-2 each Large ones, several Mediums and scores of Smalls. And I'm not suggesting something like Penta RTLs.
You can fit your ships as you like. I fit my as I like.
I've missed most modules, skills, fleet compositions and such. That's irrelevant. Opponent will be RNGed anyway.
It is rather unlikely that recoverable Guardian will keep its Autoforge unless someone will start rooting for it.
That seems to have a simple solution: Make the replenish time longer, so that the limited ammo size of small sabots matters again. Or just change the mounts to dual-type ones.
But please, you only demean yourself with foolish claims
Please stop the rudeness/personal attacks/etc. There's an interesting discussion to be had here and it's being derailed by the unnecessary hostility. If this continues at all warnings will be handed out, and possibly other moderator action will be taken, depending on the exact circumstances.
Weird, I only got 3 larges last run defeating both hypershunts and the bounty.
Large weapons are not even guaranteed drop. It’s already quite hard to get two or more cascade emitter even with 4 drops. (6/16 chance assuming Tessaract variants has equal chance spawning each large weapon). 1 to 2 each has to be modded.
If people are really that worried about the Missile Autoforgeand continue to refuse to work around it, the easiest way to balance it would be to switch the Guardian's system to an unlimited (and slightly cheaper) version of what the Gryphon has.
Completely kills attractiveness of Guardian as player ship. I can live without unlimited missiles, it's combination of range + mobility that makes me interested.I don't understand that. Range + Mobility is available on many a ship (every weapon type has a Cruiser with a large mount for it, even). Unlimited missiles however, is unique to the Guardian alone (well, and stations).
But what these options are supposed to be? Kiting?Somewhat overpowered or unfair monsters that kill things. Imagine SNK boss made playable, and somewhat overpowered even after getting nerfed, like Akuma as a hidden character in few old Capcom fighting games (SSF2 Turbo and X-Men).
I don't understand that. Range + Mobility is available on many a ship (every weapon type has a Cruiser with a large mount for it, even). Unlimited missiles however, is unique to the Guardian alone (well, and stations).That much range and that much mobility is unique to Guardian, however. Regenerating missiles let it have great offensive power, but it's something other ships can have, while soloing an entire Ordo is a pretty exclusive club. Guardian would be a replacement for Conquest, which cannot keep up with newfound aggressiveness of Remnants in 0.95, whereas Guardian can.
But what these options are supposed to be? Kiting?Somewhat overpowered or unfair monsters that kill things. Imagine SNK boss made playable, and somewhat overpowered even after getting nerfed, like Akuma as a hidden character in few old Capcom fighting games (SSF2 Turbo and X-Men).
And continuing from my last post, not just as a playable flagship with Auto Ships and Neural Link, but under AI control too with merely Auto Ships. Even Radiant in the current release as a 40 DP AI ship on your side is a monster (good when giving up 3rd s-mod for not going for Tech 10). Unless Alex adds behavior options for AI, they will not kite until they start losing the flux war.
That much range and that much mobility is unique to Guardian, however.Nope! As mentioned, every large mount has a Cruiser, thus both range and mobility (pre-hull mods).
(pre-hull mods).Case dismissed.
Ah yes, because dismissing things out of hand is real good for discussion.(pre-hull mods).Case dismissed.
How do I put Advanced Targeting Core on any ship I like, then?That... Is a more fair point. You'd have to use an ITU, which is less effective. But then, that's a trade-off for having more mobility.
A note on the Guardians plasma jets system. It’s normal cool down is 10s which the wiki says is longer than the Auroras, though it doesn’t say how long the Auroras cool down is. So it’s not as fast on average as people are probably thinking, and getting systems expertise to pilot it would take all 3 of your possible top tier skills.I am against Guardian being player obtainable because it’s too good as a player ship.
Also a note to those saying they don’t like the Guardian for x reason so it shouldn’t be implemented, your point is kinda irrelevant, as rude as that sounds.
What matters is that enough people like it that it’s worth the time and effort of Alex or some modder to make it and that it’s not so good that you have to get it, which if you take away the unlimited missiles it isn’t.
And for those that want the unlimited missiles, if it’s implemented without that then you can just go to files and copy the original guardian data onto the player version.
I agree with Megas, the Guardian is an alternative to Radiant. Currently I don’t take AI ships because just having one worthwhile ship from that skill isn’t attractive.
SpoilerIt’s range is a potential problem, but if you use ballistics, I think the travel time would be so long that even most capitals could dodge at extreme ranges and if you don’t look at extreme ranges it’s not much better than any capital with ITU. As for energy, well it can only have two and Paragon has four.
The other potential issue is speed, which is 40 +125 for 3s then cool down after 10s so an average speed of 68.3 ish. For this I’m just gonna show some examples.
Conquest is 45 +50 for about 5s then cool down after 5s so average speed is 70.
Radiant is 40 +300 instantly every 10s ish so average of 70(?).
So it’s not actually faster than other “fast” capitals.
Then there’s the issue of it being fast, long range and powerful allowing it to kite whole fleets that other ships cannot kill easily (1v1 doesn’t matter, 1v1 is not the normal and the Guardian can definitely kite, the question is, does it clearly kill fleets better than other ships)
So I’m gonna compare it to the Radiant again.
They both have comparable speeds so that’s not a factor.
Guardian has 200% range compared to Radiant with ITU 160%. Now this looks important but I say it’s not a huge deal, it’s good yes, but not huge. This is because I don’t think long range projectile weapons (Guass cannon) will be dodged even by capitals at extreme range and then looking at beams, Guardian only has two large slots for them which is not enough to kill capitals.
Then looking at other large ballistic and energy weapons. Most large Ballistics have a range of 1800 on G and the other energy have a range of 1500. Compared to beams on Radiant at 1600 (or 1920) so just looking at the topic of kiting I think it’s clear that the Guardian is not significantly better than the Radiant. Especially because the Radiant can mount five tachyon lances and has a base capacitance and dissipation to actually use them.
Now that’s not to say that the range boost is not significant, storm needlers with 1500 range sounds terrifying combined with tachyon or cyclone reapers would be really strong. Just not game breaking in my mind as it only has 4 mounts to Radiants 5 and only 2/3 the flux dissipation.[close]
What matters is that enough people like it that it’s worth the time and effort of Alex or some modder to make it and that it’s not so good that you have to get it, which if you take away the unlimited missiles it isn’t.
See, this is the problem. Guardian IS indeed so good you have to get it, even without missiles. If anything, my argument would be the opposite. You really want your OP godship - make a mod for it.Unskilled Guardian does not seem much stronger, if at all, compared to Radiant in a brawl. It has the mobility to run from corner to corner and lob unlimited missiles, which is rather degenerate. (Enemy ships tend to avoid the corner.) Strip unlimited missiles and it needs get in there and brawl. Of course, that assumes both Automated Ships and Neural Link for player piloting. If not for Neural Link, Guardian would be fine because AI would not exploit its advantages to the fullest. Maybe Guardian can be made much better with skills, but player who wants to pilot it will only have seven skill points left for the other three trees. Will that be enough compared to someone who goes for other top skills instead of the Auto Ship and Link combo?
I haven't done it this version, but a few versions ago I had a Guardian build with linked hammer barrages and small missiles, dual mjolnir, and some ACGs for anti-small ship turret covereage, for the tournament that shall not be named. Even in AI hands its a monster - I'd estimate that particular build 3 times more powerful than a regular capital? Something like that, maybe more? As long as the AI can be convinced to hold down the missile trigger (which a player would just do by leaving autofire on). Hammer Barrages are extremely powerful, something like 2250 he dps from two of them. I suppose the missile skill would boost that by 50% even if we are talking about a command transfer not increasing missile ammo for the sabots (those will just bunch up more, so it will be 12 sabots every 10 seconds all at once). Off the top of my head I'm not sure what the refire time on sabot pods are, but the guardian is going to have more burst than the 4 sabot pod radiant on top of longer range.The rearm time of sabot rack is 1 second and I’m fairly certain the missile spec skill increases max Ammo mid combat thus would kick in at the first refill.
It also would make NL Radiant somewhat balanced because you won’t be able to get both missile spec and system spec and is capped at level 9 officer equivalent assuming you invested 7080.
Worth noting - you're likely better off getting System Spec for the Radiant because only the actual flagship benefits from +100% ammo, much like tranferring command also doesn't carry over that bonus.
Remnant frigate spam is a thing because cores count as officers for now, which they will not for the player next release, so that use by late-game goes out the window. I suppose player can get Auto Ships to use a bunch of AI frigates during early-mid game as a crutch.
Oh. Right. It uses a stat pre-ship creation and the max ammo is set during ship creation and is never re-calculated after that point. How did I forget the 6 hour frustration on manipulating bomber ammo count.
Still doesn’t stop AI core from abusing it, but you can at most field a beta and must have combat endurance (and max effect crew training) to make it 40% CR - the bare minimum to not malfunction. (Assuming it will cost 100 DP because unlimited missiles)
As long as you don’t field any short range weapons on it (namely flak and whatever goes in small slot) it will fight at distance. It’s mostly about manipulating AI behavior. In an AI vs AI combat a properly fit guardian can crush radiant with ease.
Again - it’s just conquest but better without unlimited missiles.
Can you clarify your stance real quick? As I have stated I generally am against Guardian be obtainable but would accept if it has the right cost. 100 for one have autoforge and 60 without.
What is your take? I don’t know what you’re arguing for. You’re not giving any actual suggestion from the beginning.
Compared to Paragon and Radiant.
It is the problem of the weaker ship that it can't allow itself to get shot. Stronger ship doesn't care. It is being stronger for this particular reason.
The point being: currently, campaign Guardian is one the most un-impressive boss ships.
Compared to Paragon and Radiant.
It is the problem of the weaker ship that it can't allow itself to get shot. Stronger ship doesn't care. It is being stronger for this particular reason.
Have you never read the blog post about two tech levels?
(Regarding your excuses for not testing)
You can hide but you cannot run. Even with skill changes the majority of the skills are unchanged and it’s fairly easy to set such fight up. It’s even easier of you’re willing to test it without skills as there won’t be changes to hull specifications aside from deployment points of radiant. If you still can’t do that I will have no choice but to parse that as your inability to prove your arguments.
The point being: currently, campaign Guardian is one the most un-impressive boss ships.
Campaign guardian has a suboptimal loadout, suboptimal officer, VERY suboptimal weapon group(s), is fought without a supporting fleet, limited by autopilot being dumb, in addition to a mismatched officer personality and the hidden never-back-off behaviour automated ships get.
A player-piloted properly fitted guardian is basically a completely different ship that has nothing to do with the campaign boss.
Can you solo an ordo with two radiants with your own radiant?Compared to Paragon and Radiant.
It is the problem of the weaker ship that it can't allow itself to get shot. Stronger ship doesn't care. It is being stronger for this particular reason.
Have you never read the blog post about two tech levels?
(Regarding your excuses for not testing)
You can hide but you cannot run. Even with skill changes the majority of the skills are unchanged and it’s fairly easy to set such fight up. It’s even easier of you’re willing to test it without skills as there won’t be changes to hull specifications aside from deployment points of radiant. If you still can’t do that I will have no choice but to parse that as your inability to prove your arguments.
I did read it.
Radiant officially will become player controllable. AI on AI action will turn into a substitute for a real thing.
Can you solo an ordo with two radiants with your own radiant?Compared to Paragon and Radiant.
It is the problem of the weaker ship that it can't allow itself to get shot. Stronger ship doesn't care. It is being stronger for this particular reason.
Have you never read the blog post about two tech levels?
(Regarding your excuses for not testing)
You can hide but you cannot run. Even with skill changes the majority of the skills are unchanged and it’s fairly easy to set such fight up. It’s even easier of you’re willing to test it without skills as there won’t be changes to hull specifications aside from deployment points of radiant. If you still can’t do that I will have no choice but to parse that as your inability to prove your arguments.
I did read it.
Radiant officially will become player controllable. AI on AI action will turn into a substitute for a real thing.
Ai vs AI is the only objective metric when it comes to balancing. Player action is too much of uncertainty that a doom in player hands can solo an entire ordo, but does that stop radiant from being raised to 60 dp.
Edit: I still disagree with your alpha strike fantasy. In a capital 1 v 1 it’s impractical to end the fight within 10 seconds let alone one volley. How long does it take your proud aurora to beat the standard variant radiant?
Starsector is a single player game. Player centered. Not AI. I suspect that a mess what happened in the current release is at least partially is a result of paying too much attention to AIvsAI scenarios.
How is being able to solo an Ordo a "support platform"? Oh, sure, this ship can beat entire endgame fleets by itself, but it has to KITE to do so, and that means it's actually weak. How does that make any sense.
Compared to Paragon and Radiant.
Starsector is a single player game. Player centered. Not AI. I suspect that a mess what happened in the current release is at least partially is a result of paying too much attention to AIvsAI scenarios.
I would disagree here. AI vs AI is important from a balance perspective. While it's true that the player is going to have the most impact and probably should have the most impact, to say that you shouldn't pay attention to AI ships because it is a single player game is a recipe for disaster.
98% of the ships on the field are AI ships. There is certainly a point where "the player does everything" turns from fun into tedium imo. The player should be the driving force, but AI allies should have a definitive use and for that to happen there has to be balance considerations around AI vs AI.
As far as the OP, I can't really say I have much of an opinion other than I don't think all ships need to be player pilotable - though that doesn't mean I think the Guardian should necessarily be excluded for that reason alone. I'm pretty indifferent really.
Compared to Paragon and Radiant.
Paragon gets beaten one-sidedly until it's dead. Only HVD/TLs/HILs can match range with Guardian and these don't do enough damage. How exactly is this supposed to be an impressive performance?
Pretty much same with Radiant, though at least it can try to bite back if you are inaccurate at range management. While Radiant is decently fast, Guardian is still both faster and has a lot more range.
A group of 3-4 Radiants could theoretically swap once fluxed and eventually corner a Guardian, but AI doesn't do advanced tactics like that other than by accident.
The question was about the flux stats.
The question was about the flux stats.
But raw flux stats aren't the only thing that decides combat outcome. Plus, free missiles equate to a lot flux equivalent.
Attempts to balance the game from the AI perspective will end up in minimizing player's capability to affect the fight. Because it will ruin the perfect balance.
AI allies should be optimized as a support to the player in the Player vs AI battle. Not the other way around.
Attempts to balance the game from the AI perspective will end up in minimizing player's capability to affect the fight. Because it will ruin the perfect balance.
AI allies should be optimized as a support to the player in the Player vs AI battle. Not the other way around.
This is a bit of a generalization though I do agree. You aren't giving specific instances where this applies though. In fact, I'd say the opposite is currently true. Much relies upon the player intervening rather than relying upon the AI to pull the weight of the battle. If the AI was perfect then yeah that would be a problem because the player would obviously never keep up and end up feeling irrelevant. I'd hardly say this is the case though.
My point is that you are saying that the AI shouldn't be taken into consideration as a balance factor - to which I heartily disagree. Anyway, to each their own. I think I've made my point clear enough as it is.
AI allies should be optimized as a support to the player in the Player vs AI battle.AI allies and AI enemies use the exact same AI. You can't optimize them for support because the enemy side has no player flagship to support.
I can't have Radiant as of right now. Player control is not implemented yet.
Make some effort to actually read it.Make some effort to actually try it in game.
I did.
AI allies should be optimized as a support to the player in the Player vs AI battle.AI allies and AI enemies use the exact same AI. You can't optimize them for support because the enemy side has no player flagship to support.
You also seem to be pushing your own vision of the game very hard. Maybe you want it to be player vs the world, but that's not how the game is intended to be played currently and a lot (if not most) of the current players like the game the way it is (otherwise they wouldn't be playing).
Liar