Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: lz14 on June 08, 2021, 04:28:26 PM

Title: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: lz14 on June 08, 2021, 04:28:26 PM
Starsector combat seems to be loosely based on real world navy ship combat. We don't have submarines in the game, to me phase ships play a similar role as they have stealth.

However phase ships are overpowered and mass of them are extremly annoying to deal with. Imagine in real life subs underwater are x3 faster than an anti-sub destroyer !

Even not as op, navies already devote huge amount of resources to specialised anti-submarine warfare. I think this is what's needed for starsector. There should be specific anti-phase missles and systems so the AI can't just rock up a full phase fleet, there's got to be effective counter to that.

This would provide more choices to play with, more fun fighting phase ships and curb op phase ships in player's hand etc.

Someone probably thought of this before, What do you guys think ?



Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Sutopia on June 08, 2021, 04:32:05 PM
Are you looking for: High Intensity Laser
Are you looking for: warthog

Fighters can usually cripple phase ships except for doom and lasers can easily suppress phase ships
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: xescape on June 08, 2021, 05:12:06 PM
I find phase lance / tachyon lance on turreted mounts to be effective against phase ships. There's a 2 second cool down on phase cloaks, and the ships themselves have lighter weapons. So if you trick the AI into uncloaking in your range, you can quickly kill it. They also cost around double DP compared to ships of the same class with relatively little firepower (except doom), so you can either devote a larger ship to them, fighter strike as above poster mentioned, or ignore them to fight the non-phase guys. 

The only phase fleet I've had trouble with in vanilla is a particular triple-doom fleet.. but those aren't commonly seen.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Zakaluka on June 08, 2021, 08:40:15 PM
harbinger's special is an anti-phase system.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Helldiver on June 08, 2021, 08:47:26 PM
+1 on dedicated anti-phase equipment and anything resembling ASW. There needs to be a way for non-phased ships to interact with phased ships the same way surface ships would interact with submarines with depth charges and detection systems.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Kiddin Me on June 08, 2021, 10:04:34 PM
The Doom is its own problem. It has the reverse of this issue, in that it has an absurdly powerful ability with minimal options for interaction or avoidance, making it obnoxiously powerful when used by the AI and literally, genuinely, game-breakingly overpowered in the player's hands.

I'm honestly fairly disappointed that it's remained as-is for so long, and I made this account specifically to note as much.

In general, phase is just kind of stupid both in the player's hands and when playing against it, insofar as it's a button that just ... turns off danger. The counterplay to it is "have an autofire turret and twiddle your thumbs," which is a non-trivial factor in why it's either overpowered (hurr durr Doom boom button) or pretty mediocre (the rest of them).

Having played against the triple doom flee that xescape references ... it made me take a break from the game. Seeing it kill a pair of level 7 officered, extra-systemed Paragons with support and suffer no losses (not even an Afflictors) just made me wonder what the heck Alex is thinking.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Vanshilar on June 09, 2021, 03:01:06 AM
Someone probably thought of this before, What do you guys think ?

Yes, in fact, the game has multiple game mechanics that let you deal with phase ships, all put in by the developers, who have spent a lot of time thinking about this. Like WW2 submarines, phase ships need to eventually "surface", since they build up hard flux while phased; plus they don't have shields. So you need to make sure they don't escape and vent safely. To do this, you can use fighters to swarm them, long-range beams (which are nice since they hit instantly), and/or fast ships. The key is to put constant pressure on them to remove their window of safety when they need to vent.

Spoiler!
Spoiler
In fact the easiest way I found to kill the new phase ship is to just use 2 Paragons with HIL and some ion beams for fun. Its motes may disable one's weapons, but the other one will still be active, so it dies quickly once it's forced to unphase.
[close]

Dooms are of course a separate issue, but fortunately, the AI isn't as good at abusing them as the player is.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: AcaMetis on June 09, 2021, 03:05:02 AM
Dedicated anti-Phase equipment would just end up being a tax on your loadout since "you need them to defeat Phase ships!" (not really, but you know it will end up interpreted as such), while in reality it would sit there being useless most of the time because most fleets don't deploy any phase ships. Well, depending on who you make enemies with, but than you should know what you're signing up for.

(The fleet xescape mentioned is, IIRC, the second last in a long list of doomfleets that every single faction in the game sends you way at some point or another if you're going down that path. So even if you don't make enemies with that fleet's current faction the appearance of that particular Doomfleet should come as no surprise at that point.)
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: SafariJohn on June 09, 2021, 08:28:29 AM
(The fleet xescape mentioned is, IIRC, the second last in a long list of doomfleets that every single faction in the game sends you way at some point or another if you're going down that path. So even if you don't make enemies with that fleet's current faction the appearance of that particular Doomfleet should come as no surprise at that point.)

I reloaded when I encountered that doomfleet because I knew I had no chance against it. It is substantially stronger than the other doomfleets and appears in an area where you are not expecting to encounter any fleets.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Yunru on June 09, 2021, 08:42:11 AM
I was just like "know your place ***!" and burnt a story point :P
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: AcaMetis on June 09, 2021, 08:45:37 AM
I remember the first time I encountered that fleet I ditched it by flying straight through a neutron star. Significantly less painful than actually fighting it, no question. The second time I actually encountered it in one of those "independent(/pirate) salvager operations" systems, though, one of those with multiple fleets flying around and a ton of debris fields. IIRC I...volunteered some of those fleets to act as distractions while I accomplished my objective, which caused the Doomfleet to despawn. At least I wasn't able to find it after encountering one of those inexplicably gigantic pirate ambush fleets and trying to lure that one over to the Doomfleet just for the fun of it, but alas, they were long gone.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: DownTheDrain on June 09, 2021, 02:05:04 PM
I don't use phase ships but I don't think they're a balance issue either. Except for the Doom in player hands I guess, but you're not facing that.
They're usually just... annoying.

Dedicated anti-phase weapons could be a way to make them less exhausting to fight but then you'd have to constantly change loadouts depending on what you're facing. I suppose an anti-phase system of some kind could work as long as it's not a complete hard-counter.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: prestidigitation on June 09, 2021, 02:46:49 PM
Someone probably thought of this before, What do you guys think ?

Yes, in fact, the game has multiple game mechanics that let you deal with phase ships, all put in by the developers, who have spent a lot of time thinking about this. Like WW2 submarines, phase ships need to eventually "surface", since they build up hard flux while phased; plus they don't have shields. So you need to make sure they don't escape and vent safely. To do this, you can use fighters to swarm them, long-range beams (which are nice since they hit instantly), and/or fast ships. The key is to put constant pressure on them to remove their window of safety when they need to vent.

Spoiler!
Spoiler
In fact the easiest way I found to kill the new phase ship is to just use 2 Paragons with HIL and some ion beams for fun. Its motes may disable one's weapons, but the other one will still be active, so it dies quickly once it's forced to unphase.
[close]

Dooms are of course a separate issue, but fortunately, the AI isn't as good at abusing them as the player is.

So everything low tech doesn't get oof
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: prestidigitation on June 09, 2021, 02:49:04 PM
I don't use phase ships but I don't think they're a balance issue either. Except for the Doom in player hands I guess, but you're not facing that.
They're usually just... annoying.

Dedicated anti-phase weapons could be a way to make them less exhausting to fight but then you'd have to constantly change loadouts depending on what you're facing. I suppose an anti-phase system of some kind could work as long as it's not a complete hard-counter.

A phased depth charge equivalent would be a nice addition for non phase frigates or possibly destroyers. Then they could act as phase chasers and force them out of their hidey hole. It stands to reason that if you can phase a spaceship you can phase a bomb to attack that space ship.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Locklave on June 09, 2021, 03:06:37 PM
So everything low tech doesn't get oof

ROFL, that's the story of the game right now.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Demetrious on June 09, 2021, 04:13:11 PM
Starsector combat seems to be loosely based on real world navy ship combat. We don't have submarines in the game, to me phase ships play a similar role as they have stealth.

However phase ships are overpowered and mass of them are extremly annoying to deal with. Imagine in real life subs underwater are x3 faster than an anti-sub destroyer !

Even not as op, navies already devote huge amount of resources to specialised anti-submarine warfare. I think this is what's needed for starsector. There should be specific anti-phase missles and systems so the AI can't just rock up a full phase fleet, there's got to be effective counter to that.

This would provide more choices to play with, more fun fighting phase ships and curb op phase ships in player's hand etc.

Someone probably thought of this before, What do you guys think ?

Even after carriers got nerfed into the ground in the last patch (to a balanced state or not, depends on who you ask,) I've found that Talons and Thunders still excel at hounding phase ships to death. Sic'em on them and every time they decloak they'll be there hammering away at their paper-thin armor. Broadswords are also good and are good at driving up the shields on more robust destroyers and taking out those annoying fast little frigates like Wolves. A destroyer hull carrier or two (Drover or Condor) are useful in almost any fleet for this kind of anti-frigate duty.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Drazan on June 10, 2021, 02:58:20 AM
They also cost around double DP compared to ships of the same class with relatively little firepower (except doom)

Yeah, no. No phase ship costs double DP compared to ships with similar tonnage and armaments. Aurora: 30 Doom: 35, Fury: 15 Harbringer: 20, Afflictor: 8 Shade: 8 Scarab: 8.
So no phase ships are not that expensive. That 5 DP is a small price to pay for salvation.

Also, low tech (again) gets nothing to really counter phase ships.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Yunru on June 10, 2021, 03:15:36 AM
Also, low tech (again) gets nothing to really counter phase ships.
I was going to say fighters, but most of the good carriers are Midline.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Arcagnello on June 10, 2021, 08:20:57 AM
I don't think there's much I could add to this thread other than briefly repeating what's already been described to work for anti-phase Ship tactics:
1) Beam weapons are your friend, especially Ion Beam, Tachyon Lance and High Intensity Laser. Massed Taclasers and Grav beams also help somewhat.
2) A harbinger on your side (preferrably with an officer that has Elite Phase Mastery, Elite Target Anlysis, Helsmanship, Systems Expertise, Reliability Engineering and a choice between gunnery implants or energy weapon mastery) will hardcounter enemy phase ships. They work incredibly well under AI control with 3 Alternating Antimatter Blasters + ITU + Unstable Injector. Variants also making use of the Ion Pulser and Ion Beams with the same hullmods will either entirely immobilize enemy phase ships for your allies to butcher them or will do it themselves. Expanded Magazines is also a good hullmod to install if the weapons synergize.
3)Warthogs with the Fighter Uplink Commander Skill also go fast enough to keep up with most phase ships, and they hurt. Not recommended against dooms
4)fast ships with 360 shields will harass and distract/take down phase ships, even the doom if properly S-modded and kitted out. medium to fast Destroyers like the Sunder or the Hammerhead do the job almost slawlessly with both Safety Overrides and Extended shields.
5)heavy long range missile firepower also makes it really, really hard for most phaseships to approach a target. This is one of the only things ECCM+Elite Missile Specialization Pilum/Salamander spam is very good at. Missile-focus ships firing limited ammunition ordnance also help, any phaseship approaching an enemy that has a Gryphon loaded to the brim with ECCM'd Harpoons and gets high on flux is going to be threading the needle more than it will ever want to.

You don't really need to follow all of them at once, having a good rapresentation of 2 or even just one of the above "concepts" across your fleet is going to put you in a very good spot  against the Phase Weebs when encountering enemies making significant use of phase ships.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Inhilicon on June 10, 2021, 11:31:46 AM
Maybe the Mora could finally get a buff then, if low-tech carriers are the answer!
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Satirical on June 10, 2021, 12:28:30 PM
the counter to phase ships is setting a defense order
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: writeru on June 10, 2021, 02:08:11 PM
instead of  specialized anti-phase stuff we could have things like


Phase missles: Missles that anyone can use, the missles phase during part of the trajectory. If such missles could hit phase ships while itself is phased, it would be a useful weapon, but also useful for normal ships, being much harder to avoid, with the caveat that it would requires a certain skill to use it, if you use it from too afar the missles with get ouf of phase before hitting the phase ships.



or IDK, just make all phase ships be able to attack each other while in phase, as if all phase ships went to the same dimension when phasing. This way the counter for phase ships IS phase ships, as it is right now battle between phase ships can be really tedious.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: JUDGE! slowpersun on June 10, 2021, 09:16:50 PM
Anti-phase should be entire ships, not just some weapon or hull mod.  Yes, it would basically be a ship tax (have to drag around a few anti-phase ships), but can only use special ships ability to force drop phase ships out of phase... prolly simpler/easier to just allow phase ships to attack each other when phased.  And/or some sort of low-tech weapon system to counter, since phase supposedly high tech...
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: SCC on June 10, 2021, 09:48:26 PM
Anti-phase should be entire ships, not just some weapon or hull mod.  Yes, it would basically be a ship tax (have to drag around a few anti-phase ships), but can only use special ships ability to force drop phase ships out of phase...
So, Harbinger?
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: TaLaR on June 10, 2021, 11:56:32 PM
Any phase ship when player piloted is a counter to other phase ships.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: prestidigitation on June 11, 2021, 09:44:35 AM
I would strongly prefer the option of hard counter depth charges for phase ships that knock them out of phase space if you drop the charge nearby. That way I could slap them on any type of ship (low/mid/high) and design a submarine chaser equivalent.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: Hiruma Kai on June 11, 2021, 10:47:24 AM
Any phase ship when player piloted is a counter to other phase ships.

Hyperion also qualifies when player piloted.
Title: Re: Anti-Phase system and equipment needed
Post by: WeiTuLo on June 12, 2021, 08:55:22 PM
It would be great if some non-phase ships could also have quantum disruptors. Perhaps a Tempest variant? Or a quantum disruptor missile that can hit regular targets and phased targets if not shot down by PD?