Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: SCC on April 17, 2021, 07:12:34 AM

Title: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: SCC on April 17, 2021, 07:12:34 AM
I once asked Alex about some low-tech ships being overall more expensive to maintain (about 30% more for Dominator, about 50% more for Onslaught and Legion) due to their inflated logistical stats. He suggested he could make "Low Maintenance" built-in hullmod (I'm guessing it would cut maintenance in half). It would bring Dominator in line with other cruisers and make Ons and Legion only 20% more expensive to maintain than average capital ship.
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Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: belone on April 17, 2021, 07:20:01 AM
Doesn't this already exist?
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: Megas on April 17, 2021, 07:43:02 AM
This sounds like Efficiency Overhaul, and enough people try not to use it if they can help it.

Maybe OP is asking for a souped-up version that works only on low-tech ships?
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: SCC on April 17, 2021, 07:47:11 AM
A built-in hullmod for Dominator, Onslaught and Legion, to be precise.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: KDR_11k on April 17, 2021, 08:36:21 AM
Seems to make sense, especially with how these ships will already cause more resource attrition because they rely so much on armor. Plus doesn't the lore already claim that they are designed for simple logistics?
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: SonnaBanana on April 17, 2021, 08:43:53 AM
A built-in hullmod for Dominator, Onslaught and Legion, to be precise.
And Enforcer, too.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: intrinsic_parity on April 17, 2021, 08:46:16 AM
Why not just adjust the actual logistics stats?
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: SCC on April 17, 2021, 08:53:43 AM
And Enforcer, too.
Enforcer's running cost don't stick out quite as much as other ships.
Why not just adjust the actual logistics stats?
You could ask the same for phase ships.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: Amoebka on April 17, 2021, 09:33:44 AM
I think high maintenance costs make sense - rust buckets always cost you more. Would be nice if specifically repairing armor/hull damage got a discount, not general monthly maintenance.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: Megas on April 17, 2021, 09:56:52 AM
Why not just adjust the actual logistics stats?
Probably the same reason Hyperion has High Maintenance.  Change supply use without affecting DP cost in combat.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: SafariJohn on April 17, 2021, 10:25:41 AM
Why not just adjust the actual logistics stats?
Probably the same reason Hyperion has High Maintenance.  Change supply use without affecting DP cost in combat.

Exactly. While they can be defined separately, vanilla consciously chooses not to.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: Ad Astra on April 17, 2021, 12:07:44 PM
I think maintenance is more of a gameplay power factor balance and not something that makes sense when contrasted to the lore, so touching that could have unexpected results.

Let alone trying to explain how the most advanced faction in the game, the Domain, still used lower tech ships when their wealth and resources would have been neigh unlimited. Is a flying chunk of metal really peak efficiency? I'd have my doubts, maybe what we know of the domain is actually Hegemony and Luddic Church (militaristic knuckleheads) propaganda.
There's no way they didn't have terrifying highly classified super high tech fleets.

In reality high tech ships should be considerably better than older systems, Low tech fleets would win through sheer numbers and lower costs in maintenance. This however would push the loss-averse players to High tech endgame fleets and that would make things less colorful I guess.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: Thaago on April 17, 2021, 12:21:55 PM
When talking about lore I think its important to remember that the "low tech" ships we see aren't actually lower tech than the high tech ones, despite the name, because they've been retrofitted with advanced systems many times. Its also heavily implied that the domain itself has been in a technological plateau for a very long time. The tech levels are much more differences in doctrine and design philosophy than actual changes in technology.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: Ad Astra on April 17, 2021, 12:42:00 PM
When talking about lore I think its important to remember that the "low tech" ships we see aren't actually lower tech than the high tech ones, despite the name, because they've been retrofitted with advanced systems many times. Its also heavily implied that the domain itself has been in a technological plateau for a very long time. The tech levels are much more differences in doctrine and design philosophy than actual changes in technology.

Oh yes of course, Onslaughts were designed before shields were a thing, but that's what begs the question, why would those metal buckets even be in use at this point? Its like a museum piece going around the battlefield. I would get it from specific battlegroups like the XIV, however to expect such a cohesive and relatively regressive doctrine from an entire intergalactic empire sound a little weirder.
They sound like space knights in shining armor, romanticists of sorts. Sword is better than musket or something like that.

I like to think of the XIV as hardcore "old stuff was better" sort of people, and that could also be one of the reasons why they got sent to some backwater sector in the middle of nowhere. Domain was dishonest about AI use, Domain was secretive and obscurantist, that's why even in a place like the academy they couldn't keep such huge parts of the knowledge like terraforming, as such even their doctrine could be a publicity stunt about how "flesh is better than metal" while they built things like tesseracts, sent AI all over the universe to gather data and prepare the ground for non-stop expansion. Chaos in a society doesn't eliminate high tech data backups like how an old library could go up in flames, that requires willing desire to hide and destroy knowledge, someone is responsible for that.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: Amoebka on April 17, 2021, 12:45:03 PM
They still get used because the sector is in a sorry state and beggars can't be choosers. Hegemony and Luddites don't have access to any other capital blueprints, so they have to use Onslaught and/or Legion.

The only faction that has the modern good stuff is TT.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: Thaago on April 17, 2021, 12:47:34 PM
They still get used because the sector is in a sorry state and beggars can't be choosers. Hegemony and Luddites don't have access to any other capital blueprints, so they have to use Onslaught and/or Legion.

The only faction that has the modern good stuff is TT.

No, thats not true. Onslaughts/Legions are just as good as Paragons/Atrals, adjusted for DP. Both explicitly in game where they are just as good, and in lore.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: SCC on April 17, 2021, 12:48:13 PM
More factions than just Hegemony use low-tech ships, including Persean League (Mora, Dominator, Enforcer, Lasher, civvies), Independents (ditto), Sindrian Diktat (ditto, except for Mora), Luddic Church (they also get Legion), Luddic Path (they only have Enforcer and Lasher) and Pirates (same as path).

I hope that Alex finally moves away from tech levels soon.
Title: Re: Low Maintenance hullmod
Post by: Ad Astra on April 17, 2021, 01:04:10 PM
I hope that Alex finally moves away from tech levels soon.

Maybe if there's some elaboration about hi tech being more unreliable against an AI threat, low tech would instead be more easily thought of as "less automatic systems", that would tie wonderfully with the whole suspicion of AI and very high crew requirements in low tech ships. Having a thick armor to defend your troops should those finicky shield systems fail is surely relieving if you expect any and all systems that aren't a gun or a rocket to fail I guess.