Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: SCC on April 14, 2021, 03:15:09 AM
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If Radiant's DP was changed to 60 and Automated Ships skill's limit was adjusted to take that into account, it would make other automated ships more competitive, and it would nerf Radiant slightly in fights against Remnants, which in the current state is well deserved, as adding a Radiant or two can easily double or triple the remnant fleet's power.
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40 DP is alright, skill overall must be baffed to compete with an alternative. And I think with max DP 180, DP cost must be tuned around 50 max for a single ship IMO.
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40 DP Radiant is currently the only incentive to pick the skill at all. The rest of the ships aren't impressive at all. If you take it away, special mods will become even more of a nobrainer.
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Yeah, 40DP is clearly massively under-priced. Redacted are strong enough without this. For player this would make Radiant a bit less attractive, but could be compensated by increase in maxCR/amount of DP for auto ships from skill (so that single Radiant would reach higher value than it can now or you could get more core officers).
And I think with max DP 180...
Skill limits should be 60% combat size, not 60% default combat size.
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Zig is borderline unusable on 300 because of the 75 DP cost. Same for Paragon. I don't want yet another ship to become exclusive to people who mod their game.
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400 DP is available from options right away (and is preserved on version update for people who have set it earlier). More can be easily set in config.
If changing battle-size for your advantage is considered too exploit-y, it could be fixed once on campaign start.
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Dev mode is also available in the config. Doesn't make it a "setting". We now have content that is explicitly designed around 300 max size (boss battles). In either case, having ships be effectively unusable on some settings is not good.
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For player this would make Radiant a bit less attractive, but could be compensated by increase in maxCR/amount of DP for auto ships from skill (so that single Radiant would reach higher value than it can now or you could get more core officers).
It would be nice, since currently Radiant is the only competitive option. You take Automated Ships for your pet death god, or you don't take it at all.
Zig is borderline unusable on 300 because of the 75 DP cost.
I know Doom makes Zig completely redundant, but is it really this bad on its own? It seems pretty good on paper.
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If you have 120 DP and deploy Zig for 75, you can't really deploy anything else at all because your AI can't handle numeric disadvantage this big. And soloing the entire enemy fleet by yourself with one overpowered capital is just not the gameplay this game should encourage, I feel. Fleet battles are where the fun is, and fleet implies multiple ships, not a supercapital and a couple frigates.
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Yeah, 40DP is clearly massively under-priced.
To elaborate my point here. It should be massively underpriced. The two competing tier 5 tech skills are competing with one another because they (in theory) do the same thing - allow you to field more DP-efficient ships. I say in theory, because of all the automated ships, only Radiant is truly more DP-efficient than normal ships. The answer here is not to nerf Radiant, it's to possibly buff the other options. If you just nerf Radiant, then you are asking players to pay an enormous opportunity cost of not picking special mods for the privilege of fielding ships that aren't any better than any others. If I could field Fulgents and Scintilla without any skill investment at all, I wouldn't do it, because the other destroyers are simply better.
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Radiant is underpriced... for NPCs. For Automated Ships, it is overpriced (given how little CR it has with the DP pool) with the 30 DP limit, given how powerful Special Modifications can be. Currently, Efficiency Overhaul is a must-have on Radiant because huge CR penalties put it barely above the yellow.
I would not mind 50 DP Radiant provided Automated Ships limit was doubled from 30 DP to 60 DP.
The other Remnant ships feel too balanced - not good enough for giving up +1 s-mod. Lumen is okay as a frigate with at least as much PPT as a destroyer and can stay alive. All frigates (except maybe Hyperion) need at least as much PPT as a Lumen.
As for Ziggurat, it is powerful, but feels kind of balanced at 75 DP. Its main gimmick is unblockable EMP (more so than kinetic-and-lance combo) with its light show, but it does not hammer things like a battleship can, and without a shield, it cannot tank everything and slug it out against things it cannot outrange. Nevermind pseudo-aggravation that blows your cover and prevents stealth-ops.
Yes, 300 default map size is too small. Player should deploy a fleet, not play 3x3 tournament like Star Control or a fighting game. Even the new max of 400 is barely big enough.
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Another issue with non-Radiant AI ships is their reckless personality. This is something only Radiant can kinda afford, for smaller ships this is just suicide.
Yes, 300 default map size is too small. Player should deploy a fleet, not play 3x3 tournament like Star Control or a fighting game. Even the new max of 400 is barely big enough.
New 400 DP battle-size allows 480 DP of ships to be deployed, so effective difference is not that big.
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Another issue with non-Radiant AI ships is their reckless personality. This is something only Radiant can kinda afford, for smaller ships this is just suicide.
Yes, 300 default map size is too small. Player should deploy a fleet, not play 3x3 tournament like Star Control or a fighting game. Even the new max of 400 is barely big enough.
New 400 DP battle-size allows 480 DP of ships to be deployed, so effective difference is not that big.
Lumen is slippery enough for that not to be an issue in smaller fights. Glimmer is a suicide ship, though.
As for DP, only true if you cap the points first (which means player needs frigates). Even then, it may not stay that way if the enemy steals those points, which player cannot afford with the enemy's superior forces.
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I haven't played around with the automated ship systems too much: how many Lumens with gamma cores can the player get with the skill and have functioning CR, IE no malfunctions? That seems like it could be a good way to Wolfpack (given their already long CR) and abuse ECCM as they could be 8% each (the current 20% is too good, and I'm taking advantage of it while I can).
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Lumen with Gamma core is 9 DP. I can fit three without CR drop. Radiant with Beta core (what I use since I have no Alpha) is 47 DP. Say... five Lumens.
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5 lumens giving 40% extra ECM sounds to me like a very strong option tbh - T5L is good but not top tier. 40% ECM sounds like winning every fight, at least until ECM is fixed up, because 20% range advantage is so extreme (as players have been slammed by).
Lets see, take Gunnery Implants, Reliability Engineering (15% CR might allow for another lumen or two?), and the third is really free for anything but EWM, speed, impact mitigation, and shields all come to mind as good picks. Might as well build in the core as well for a 4th skill: gamma's are really cheap and reliability guarantees recovery. Wolfpack seems the natural pick to go along with it to buff them up and give more ppt (though remnants have tons of that anyways), though 20% speed on all ships is amazing as well.
Perhaps Radiants are even stronger than that (haven't tested!) but thats an option I'd want to try.
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I haven't played around with the automated ship systems too much: how many Lumens with gamma cores can the player get with the skill and have functioning CR, IE no malfunctions? That seems like it could be a good way to Wolfpack (given their already long CR) and abuse ECCM as they could be 8% each (the current 20% is too good, and I'm taking advantage of it while I can).
If you're grabbing wolfpack, might as well grab the tier higher and grab crew training. If you're going ECM, going a tier higher than that gets you more officers to put in those non-automated frigates also makes sense.
Let's say you want 41% or higher CR. With the +15% personal skill, and the +15% fleet skill, that means aiming for 11% CR from the automation skill (-30+41 = 11). 100*30=3000. 3000/41 = 73 DP. 73/9 = 8.11.
You can have 8 Lumens with 41% CR Lumens with gamma cores assuming they take Reliability Engineering and you have crew training AND your combat portion of the fleet is 180 DP or lower.
Assuming 300 DP worth of combat ships (and thus only +9% CR from Crew training), that would drop to 7. (-30+47=17, 3000/47=63.8,63/9 = 7).
Still, potentially 18 permanent officers is quite a bit. 8 Lumens, 1 Tempest, 9 Hyperions would fit under 180 DP (and leave 5 points for some other frigate for the player). Leadership 4 + Technology 5, still leaves 6 more points (wrap Tech to 5 again, wrap leadership to tier 2, grab combat skills for yourself, etc). If you're running battle size 300, that is kinda scary with story point built in SO + Hardened systems (at least in RC12).
As noted above, I think the biggest issue might the reckless behavior on the Lumens though.
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For player this would make Radiant a bit less attractive, but could be compensated by increase in maxCR/amount of DP for auto ships from skill (so that single Radiant would reach higher value than it can now or you could get more core officers).
It would be nice, since currently Radiant is the only competitive option. You take Automated Ships for your pet death god, or you don't take it at all.
Zig is borderline unusable on 300 because of the 75 DP cost.
I know Doom makes Zig completely redundant, but is it really this bad on its own? It seems pretty good on paper.
only when you ignore the entire mechanic of capturing objectives to raise DP
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I haven't played around with the automated ship systems too much: how many Lumens with gamma cores can the player get with the skill and have functioning CR, IE no malfunctions? That seems like it could be a good way to Wolfpack (given their already long CR) and abuse ECCM as they could be 8% each (the current 20% is too good, and I'm taking advantage of it while I can).
If you're grabbing wolfpack, might as well grab the tier higher and grab crew training. If you're going ECM, going a tier higher than that gets you more officers to put in those non-automated frigates also makes sense.
Let's say you want 41% or higher CR. With the +15% personal skill, and the +15% fleet skill, that means aiming for 11% CR from the automation skill (-30+41 = 11). 100*30=3000. 3000/41 = 73 DP. 73/9 = 8.11.
You can have 8 Lumens with 41% CR Lumens with gamma cores assuming they take Reliability Engineering and you have crew training AND your combat portion of the fleet is 180 DP or lower.
Assuming 300 DP worth of combat ships (and thus only +9% CR from Crew training), that would drop to 7. (-30+47=17, 3000/47=63.8,63/9 = 7).
Still, potentially 18 permanent officers is quite a bit. 8 Lumens, 1 Tempest, 9 Hyperions would fit under 180 DP (and leave 5 points for some other frigate for the player). Leadership 4 + Technology 5, still leaves 6 more points (wrap Tech to 5 again, wrap leadership to tier 2, grab combat skills for yourself, etc). If you're running battle size 300, that is kinda scary with story point built in SO + Hardened systems (at least in RC12).
As noted above, I think the biggest issue might the reckless behavior on the Lumens though.
Thanks for doing the math! Ok, so lumens are going to give 56% ECM advantage on top of whatever the rest of the fleet is doing. Thats less important for a fast frigate strike fleet than for a battle line, but its still a great advantage to have. In terms of the reckless behavior being an issue... maybe take the free points and go down industry for derelict continent (leaves 2 free points). Every time the lumens kill themselves, they just grow stronger!
For the player, they are going to have EWM, one of the industry skills, and could grab helmsmanship and targetting analysis. Leaves them without the key defensive C3 and C4 skills, but still not the worst build.
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In fact, if all your Lumens will have 5 d-mods and you have DC, you will be able to have 12 of them or so above 40% max CR.
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In fact, if all your Lumens will have 5 d-mods and you have DC, you will be able to have 12 of them or so above 40% max CR.
... thats a lot of Lumens.
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In fact, if all your Lumens will have 5 d-mods and you have DC, you will be able to have 12 of them or so above 40% max CR.
... thats a lot of Lumens.
Yeah. Had forgotten about the CR component of Derelict contingent. Which means Leadership 3, Technology 5, Industry 4 lets you have two Alpha core Radiants with 45% CR - provided they have 5 d-mods each. They also reduce damage to hull by 90% for 75% of hits. Plus a ton of residual armor if you do throw shield shunt on...
I'm suddenly having flashbacks to shieldless Paragons tournament ships. Except with quintuple plasma cannon (roughly 25 seconds of continuous fire), shield shunt, heavy armor, blast door, reinforced bulkheads. 500 residual armor (650 with armor skill?) and 32,000 hull is nothing to sneeze at.
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If all you care is ECM, why use lumens? Explorarium drones are 3 dp instead of 4!
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In fact, if all your Lumens will have 5 d-mods and you have DC, you will be able to have 12 of them or so above 40% max CR.
... thats a lot of Lumens.
Yeah. Had forgotten about the CR component of Derelict contingent. Which means Leadership 3, Technology 5, Industry 4 lets you have two Alpha core Radiants with 45% CR - provided they have 5 d-mods each. They also reduce damage to hull by 90% for 75% of hits. Plus a ton of residual armor if you do throw shield shunt on...
I'm suddenly having flashbacks to shieldless Paragons tournament ships. Except with quintuple plasma cannon (roughly 25 seconds of continuous fire), shield shunt, heavy armor, blast door, reinforced bulkheads. 500 residual armor (650 with armor skill?) and 32,000 hull is nothing to sneeze at.
Radiants have the armor and hull to pull that off, unlike lumens that really aren't going to survive without their shields, and an integrated alpha core easily has the skills to pick up damage control for +50% weapon/engine repair rate (and 33% more hull too, that helps). Unlike shieldless Paragons, these capital ships can teleport into range... Wow thats just so gross.
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I want to try it.
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I forgot, which were the 4 DP Remnant frigates? Lumens or Glimmers? I had 15 of those with DC and with 41% max CR. They were pretty underwhelming in combat, though. Half of them died to the spooky manta ray.
Radiants have the armor and hull to pull that off, unlike lumens that really aren't going to survive without their shields, and an integrated alpha core easily has the skills to pick up damage control for +50% weapon/engine repair rate (and 33% more hull too, that helps). Unlike shieldless Paragons, these capital ships can teleport into range... Wow thats just so gross.
You will want DC, IM, RE, Helms, EWM, SE (I need to check if a Radiant can jump over any ships with SE. I hope so, it would be funny), TA & GI on those Radiants. Fighters they have not, PD you should outsource to Omens, Ranged Spec is bad anyway, they don't have shields, phase or missiles (unless you don't go with 5 PCs/APLs, in which case I'd take Missle Spec instead of GI). For skills, I'd prolly get more officers, obviously Automated Ships and Derelict Contingent, and you have 2 skills left over... Get both GI and EWM, I'd say. Or take just weapon drills or helmsmanship, which would let you double dip into tech for 3 s-mod Radiants.
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Not taking combat skills seems boring. I guess it becomes the auto-battler build where you just deploy two OP radiants and watch.
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Not taking combat skills seems boring. I guess it becomes the auto-battler build where you just deploy two OP radiants and watch.
I don't think so actually: the dual radiant build doesn't need officer training necessarily because its not trying to max cheese ECM, so its dedicated skill are 3 leaderships, 5 techs, and 4 industry. So it comes with 2 combat skills (really good ones too), with room for 3 more. It loses out on the top 2 combat skills which is a bummer, but not crippling. Shields is mostly a passive skill, though losing it is a decent nerf to the player... unless the player takes advantage of Derelict Contingent themselves and goes for shield shunt anyways.
For someone who wants to fly a superfrigate, they get Energy Weapon Mastery, Reliability Engineering, Helmsmanship, Target Analysis, Impact Mitigation, and wolfpack tactics: thats a solid set of skills, and they can keep shields and just dodge more. Not maxed skills, but its got all the essentials. Damage Control might win out over reliability engineering for larger ships and depending on desired officer distribution maybe coordinated maneuvers instead of wolfpack, but thats still a solid set of combat skills. The only real losers are phase ships (but do they really need skills to be broken player ships?) and missile ships (noooooo).
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Edit: Beaten to the punch by Thaago.
I dunno, it doesn't look that bad. I'd probably go Helmsmanship + Target Analysis instead of Gunnery Implants, and aim to pilot a Hyperion. Helmsmanship, Target Analysis, Energy Weapon Mastery, Wolfpack Tactics, Reliability Engineering, Flux Regulation, Crew Training, and Weapon Drills all would help such a ship. Lots of damage buffs, lots of running time buffs, extra flux and 100% CR, and 0-flux bonus when you stop shooting. Only thing you're really missing is the shield skill.
Hmm. 4 escort omens (10% ECM each), 1 Hyperion, 2 Radiants is 115 DP, which fits comfortably under 120 DP (300 * 0.4). You could lean into more pristine frigates or into SO derelict cruisers. Or a derelict Onslaught.
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Impact mitigation requires dropping officer skills too, which are both almost certainly better IMO.
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They could, but its not essential for the build to work. Especially as the build is already up 2 alpha cores in radiants for officers. So there's the choice there for a better player ships or a better officer corp, whichever the player thinks will be better for them.
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I mean, officers will definitely get more value. I don't think there's any way 2 extra fully skilled officers or 8 skills and 8 elite skills are not more value than IM on the player ship.
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radiant should be a BALANCED BATTLESHIP instead of the op nonsense we got for "lore reasons"
the radiant being an "op" battleship would be fine, if it wasnt possible to SPAM radiants... which it absolutely is
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I mean, officers will definitely get more value. I don't think there's any way 2 extra fully skilled officers or 8 skills and 8 elite skills are not more value than IM on the player ship.
Hmmm, I'm really not sure. Either IM or Ranged are very strong skills, players are much better than the AI, and the player ship is usually the strongest and most invested in ship on the field. If IM lets my player ships survive twice as long (and it can, easily), then yeah thats more powerful than another 2 officers or extra officer skills. Especially the extra officer skills, as officers usually already have the 5 best skills for their ship, so the 6th is comparatively less needed.
radiant should be a BALANCED BATTLESHIP instead of the op nonsense we got for "lore reasons"
the radiant being an "op" battleship would be fine, if it wasnt possible to SPAM radiants... which it absolutely is
I agree it could use a DP bump.
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People try to get a lot of ecm-mule Lumen into their build when in other threads people are actually turning Glimmers into engines of destruction.
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Especially the extra officer skills, as officers usually already have the 5 best skills for their ship, so the 6th is comparatively less needed.
The one key benefit to being able to train officers to level six - and the one that's not documented anywhere - is that a level five officer will never have both skills from the same tier.
So, for example, if you want an officer to have Point Defense without losing the effectively-mandatory Target Analysis - the only way that can happen is if you can raise officers to level six...
...And get very lucky with the skill selection; even with the mentoring option you frequently won't have the skill selection you want; usually it'll use up four of the six slots with whichever two skill pairs you didn't take on your way to level five, leaving you with only two chances out of five to get the skill you want to double-up on.
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Also, you get a second elite skill which can be very good or useless depending on the exact officer
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So, for example, if you want an officer to have Point Defense without losing the effectively-mandatory Target Analysis - the only way that can happen is if you can raise officers to level six...
We really need lootable officers that come with pre-determined skills as level 6 or 7 to just have higher cap instead. This degree of RNG belongs in gacha hell, not a proper single player game.
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We really need lootable officers that come with pre-determined skills as level 6 or 7 to just have higher cap instead. This degree of RNG belongs in gacha hell, not a proper single player game.
I don't know man, adding some cool "cling and ka-ching" sound effects and a golden shining background when you get a decent one could go a long way...
"5-star SSR officer getto!"-Some very excited Japanese fellow presumably.
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People try to get a lot of ecm-mule Lumen into their build when in other threads people are actually turning Glimmers into engines of destruction.
Glimmers never drop for me as salvage.
Lumens at least are pretty good at combat.
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i think the radiant is vastly undervalued at 40 dp. its much stronger then a paragon in every way which has a dp of 60.
arguing that having it at 60 would make the automated ships skill to weak is a bad arguement. if that skill is to weak without having an utterly undervalued super ship to claim, the skill needs a boost. it does not say anything about the radiant though.
also: having it at 40dp makes fighting the remnants extremely hard as soon as they have this ship in it. there is just an extreme jump in difficulty and i find it extremely hard to win without using ships like doom once there is more then one of them in a fleet, especially as remnant fleets have huge advantages across the board because they get vastly superiour officers already.
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I played with a Radiant on my side for some time now. It should definitely be 60 DP. It's stronger than a Tessaract. Well, admittedly, it can also be that high-tech (even with nerfed EWM) is bonkers, or that a Radiant + high-tech combo is bonkers. Either way, Automated Ships is the most meaningful skill in my campaign.
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People try to get a lot of ecm-mule Lumen into their build when in other threads people are actually turning Glimmers into engines of destruction.
I prefer Hazelnuts Of The Apocalypse, but I'll take the compliment regardless, if you're indeed referring to the "Fly My Pretties" thread ;D
But yes, back on topic. Radiant deserves to be bumped up to 60DP, and that I would call going light with the Nerfhammer.
Think about it: One more large mount and the same amount of medium/small mounts as the Paragon all pointing at the front, but the Radiant gets a mobility skill from a frigade and 1500 armor, which skyrockets to over 2000 with Heavy armor and Armored weapon mounts. I don't have the numbers at hand but I'm almost sure the Radiant even has significantly better flux stats.
Ludd save us, a Hammer barrage/Typhoon Reaper Launcher + Sabot SRM pod, triple or just double Smod Radiant with a fully integrated Alpha Core beats a Paragon and an Astral behind it in the simulator by itself, under AI control in under 90 seconds. And this is without the Derelict Contingent cheese.
I'm not trying to insinuate that anyone that does not recognize it's the most broken, AI controlled ship you can possibly get more than one of in your fleet is in the wrong, but they sure as Mammon (and possibly Moloch) have a skewed vision of game balance.
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It is horribly overpowered, and I am fine with that because the alternative skill, Special Modifications, is also overpowered, and Radiant has low CR if player does not have Crew Training and a small fleet.
All Remnants should be overpowered like Radiant, not Radiant weakened to match best-in-class human ships (or only overpowered if they avoid everyone until enemy PPT expires first).
However, I would not mind if Radiant's OP was raised to 50, especially if it gets more CR. Sub-50 CR is annoying. Right now, Radiant is a semi-hangar queen for getting into malfunction territory after one fight.
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All Remnants should be overpowered like Radiant, not Radiant weakened to match best-in-class human ships (or only overpowered if they avoid everyone until enemy PPT expires first).
Fighting Remnants is annoying enough when you have to watch for Remnant "super"caps supported by merely very-good warships, all supported by mountains of ECM and buffed by fountains of super officers.
I can only imagine the frustration that would be caused if the Remnant Ordo's Radiants started being escorted by Remnant Tempest+'s and Omen+'s, screened by Medusa+'s, while Fury+ kill squads roam the edges of the map.
Hopefully that remains solely in the realm of the imagination.
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I think SCC's initial suggestion in this thread was more or less ideal, and there's no need to overcomplicate it; price the Radiant according to its power, and adjust the limit on the skill so the player isn't effectively choosing between one or two Radiants and various temporary novelty ships, but between one Radiant and a Radiant's worth of other Remnant ships.
(Another thing to consider is mods adding custom AI ships; under the current skill limits, you're never going to recover those ships and use them when you could have the underpriced, overpowered glory of a Radiant in your fleet - unless they're competitive with the Radiant. So it covertly encourages power-creep in AI ships, in order to get players to use them at all; pushing for Radiant clones with artificially low DP costs at the expense of other, more interesting options.)
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400 DP is available from options right away (and is preserved on version update for people who have set it earlier). More can be easily set in config.
If changing battle-size for your advantage is considered too exploit-y, it could be fixed once on campaign start.
Changing battle-size during play is massively exploitable, lol.
Here, just for fun, try making the range run from 50 to 1000. At 50, you can chain-kill practically any fleet in the game, at 1000, your CPU will melt, but you can see what happens when the AI isn't gimped on deployment. 1000DP that's reasonably playable has always been the goal of my AI project, lol.
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I'm guessing the Radiant under AI control would remain at 40? Or should Remnant fleets be nerfed in that regard?
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I'm guessing the Radiant under AI control would remain at 40? Or should Remnant fleets be nerfed in that regard?
I think it would be fine for it to be made 60 for remnant fleets as well, and if they are then not scary enough they could get some other bonus. Like if radiants were 60 and the other remnants ships lost a DP or two (or for the Brilliant, 5, poor thing), then all remnant ships would be equally moderately overpowered per DP, instead of just Radiants being crazy.
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I think Radiant should be 75 DP, so 60 is still undervaluing it IMO. I agree with Thaago that if making radiants 60 DP made remnant fleets too easy, then remnant fleets could get a buff in some other way. I wouldn't mind if remnant fleets got some bonus DP above the max or something like that to compensate.
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well. many players seem to hit a hard wall when facing late game fleets with multiple radiants so i very much think that increasing the dp would be fine for remnant fleets too.
i think difficulty scaling should be done in a different way then having one utterly overpowerd (or undervalued) end game menance.
i think it was much better to have a more consistent difficulty level across the game and i would think it was much better if this could be tuned to player preference and ability.
ammount of officers in enemy fleets was an obvious screw to tune it. it already has the options hidden in the settings file it just would have to be made aviable as ingame setting.
so while just increasing radiants dp as a stand alone change might not be ideal, i think it could be very beneficial if combined with better and more granular difficulty settings.
after all, the settings we do have now are entirely economically. once a player has figured out how to make money (which is not very hard at all) they become mostly meaningless.
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one utterly overpowerd (or undervalued) end game menance.
There is more than one:). Both 'Dorito bag' and Guardian are just as, if not more, DP-underpriced. They can be generated in contact bounty fleets, so in 0.95 their DP costs do matter.
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Dorito od nothing in comparison to my Radisnt anyway.
Bounty Guardians always have Derelict Contingent, which is going to get nerfed.