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Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Timid on April 10, 2021, 06:59:57 PM

Title: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Timid on April 10, 2021, 06:59:57 PM
To discuss Recovery Shuttle, one must know what it does first.


My problem with this? It barely does anything. It's not noticeable to the player, it's not significant, and worst of it all, The AI fleets are hardly affected by it.

Through the opinion of others...

... why use recovery shuttles and blast doors when you can just buy new and just as efficient fodder [crews] at the nearest starport?

[In reference to the amount of crew loss] .... Recovery Shuttles are mandatory unless you like to bleed crew.

Without skills, Expanded Deck Crew is handy, and Recovery Shuttles is useful for not losing as much crew with Talon dominated wings.

... Crew losses are very severe when trying to employ this even with recovery shuttles, and that means sacrificing more performance for sake of economics of the tactic. Additionally, it's unlikely that you need to nerf fighter performance to make this tactic unviable. Future additions to the campaign layer probably will not let this sort of high crew loss rate be acceptable without say forcing you to go and get more too often or forcing you to keep your crew from committing mutiny for using them as fodder.

Doesn't need Surveying stuff as transports do that without having to sacrifice combat ability. I would instead use Recovery Shuttles to protect my precious crew.

As some folks already mentioned, we're talking about harsh, dystopian reality here, where people supposed to sell themselves for anything to get chunk of credits ... Well, they can even consider it lucky to serve under more or less caring space commander, as myself, since I tend to roll with Hardened Shields, Blast Doors and Recovery Shuttles whenever I can. ;)

it's a strange discovery that this hullmod is any at all effective. It is a reduction of the crew tax for using wings. Once you start rolling in the credits, this hullmod becomes obsolete at this point. In the early game, you don't even start off with this and might not even see this until it's way too pointless and late to get them.

For the AI... this hullmod is ultimately useless. If it ever gets an autofit of this hullmod, they are fighting at a 15 OP disadvantage. Most of the time when you encounter an AI fleet either you die or they die. Crew casualties become pointless.

Maybe... the hullmod could either be converted as a logistic hullmod with reduced OP cost or they can use a minor buff in refitting time to synergize with expanded deck crews.

I do not know. Maybe it is perfectly balanced as it is or maybe it is just a hullmod that people will take early and then skip over like the Dedicated Targeting Unit vs Integrated Targeting Unit.

I offer this thread for people to discuss its usefulness after they are bankrolling in credits.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Embolism on April 10, 2021, 08:55:25 PM
I think Recovery Shuttles would make sense if crew levels were still a thing, i.e. retaining veteran pilots is necessary to maintain strike craft effectiveness. It would be nice for example to have a marine analogue to Recovery Shuttles (Combat Medical Facilities), I'd use that.

If we add a new "pilot" crew type that levels up like marines do and improves strike craft effectiveness... maybe some pilot-related skills... then Recovery Shuttles would be useful.

As it is since all crewmen are the same whether they're vets or landlubbers, Recovery Shuttles is pointless.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: SCC on April 10, 2021, 11:10:45 PM
I'm still surprised people use this hullmod, instead of buying some more crew instead.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Maethendias on April 11, 2021, 01:04:33 AM
i think recovery shuttles is less of a "balance" mod, and more of a qol mod to not loose tons of crew when you out of the core worlds
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: KDR_11k on April 11, 2021, 01:07:24 AM
I'm not sure you can even lose enough fighters in a battle for this to matter. Blast doors can make more sense if you're on an extended deployment and don't want to end up undercrewed if a few of your ships get blown up and recovered since crew is hard to refill when you're far from civilization.

For the AI... this hullmod is ultimately useless. If it ever gets an autofit of this hullmod, they are fighting at a 15 OP disadvantage. Most of the time when you encounter an AI fleet either you die or they die. Crew casualties become pointless.

I think in terms of roleplay/universe cohesion it makes sense for AI fleets to not think of it like that. AI fleets shouldn't be specced purely for fighting the player, they should simulate a somewhat realistic configuration a captain would choose to survive in the void.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Gotcha! on April 11, 2021, 02:46:34 AM
I always install this, since I want my pilots to have a chance of survival (even though pilots are basically just a commodity).
Kinda wish it was 100% though, not 75%, since my gawd, fighters sure have a low survival chance in this game.
If I was a fighter pilot, I'd just eject myself out of the nearest airlock and get it over with.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: TaLaR on April 11, 2021, 03:01:30 AM
The only thing it does is marginally decrease your spending (on crew), IF you use a lot of fighters (and who does that in 0.95 anyway?). Not worth it ever.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Locklave on April 11, 2021, 05:42:53 AM
If we add a new "pilot" crew type that levels up like marines do and improves strike craft effectiveness... maybe some pilot-related skills... then Recovery Shuttles would be useful.

This right here is gold and I love it. Please put that on the suggestion thread with a link here so I and people can support it.

Fighter pilots shouldn't really just be crew.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: oooh_senpai on April 11, 2021, 09:02:51 AM
If we add a new "pilot" crew type that levels up like marines do and improves strike craft effectiveness... maybe some pilot-related skills... then Recovery Shuttles would be useful.

This right here is gold and I love it. Please put that on the suggestion thread with a link here so I and people can support it.

Fighter pilots shouldn't really just be crew.
I want all crew to have leveling, not pilots only, and maybe some punishment for losing crew (so they would feel like people, not just fuel you burn in combat). Who are all this people piloting enemy kites? Maybe some i-like-to-be-evaporized club members?
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: ChaseBears on April 11, 2021, 09:30:21 AM
Fighters die too much for a pilot-crew system with XP.  It would only matter in the first place if you had recovery shuttles and so you might as well put any effectiveness boost from pilot XP on the Recovery Shuttles mod itself.   

Especially hilarious would be your enforcers with converted hangars and Talons getting all your elite pilots killed while your elite trident squad flies in circles.

I have been forced to return to port from crew losses before but thats because of massive losses from tight battles, never bleed from fighters.  That skill from Industry that adds +50% cargo/fuel/berths or just taking a passenger ship are way more effective ways of combating crew bleed than recovery shuttles.  Perhaps Expanded Deck Crew could be split up - it keeps the base replacement rate bonus, and the replacement recovery rate bonus gets put onto Recovery Shuttles - representing the recovery of damaged chassis and experienced pilots reducing the stress on the carrier.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Locklave on April 14, 2021, 02:38:24 AM
I want all crew to have leveling, not pilots only, and maybe some punishment for losing crew (so they would feel like people, not just fuel you burn in combat). Who are all this people piloting enemy kites? Maybe some i-like-to-be-evaporized club members?

They are, all crew are now. Alex removed crew skill levels at some point in the past.

Everyone who is aware of that knows pushing for it is pointless.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Euripides on April 14, 2021, 06:02:03 AM
It doesn't matter because personnel don't matter

Make the personnel matter and saving them will start making some sense.
Imagine if you had "Elite fighter pilots" +25% fighter damage and speed. Cost 100x normal personnel.

Now you buy 100 mans and it costs you 100,000 credits (still chump change) but you have some incentive for them to stay alive. Its a pain in the ass to go buy more elite pilots, they are expensive. Lets try and keep them alive as long as possible.


Why would you want a hullmod that saves you disposable trash? Crew don't matter as long as you meet the minimum requirements. Until that changes and there's a reason to worry about crew losses besides being undermanned (a situation resolved with 5000 credits and a pitstop at literally any inhabitated station), hullmods like this will remain useless.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Flet on April 14, 2021, 06:31:48 AM
maybe make it also reduce replacement rate reduction or something (because higher morale)
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Megas on April 14, 2021, 06:37:46 AM
I did not bother with crew reduction features (or bonus xp to crew) even when crew levels were a thing.

What I did not like about crew levels:
* Harder early game (crew was mostly green, with low CR)
* Meaningless late (more than enough elites to crew everything at the end, plus new to train replacements)
* Crew Tetris.  Did not like the mini-game of crew management.

Crew of varying levels were separate items, unlike today's marines.

Good riddance to crew levels.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: oooh_senpai on April 14, 2021, 07:19:37 AM
I did not bother with crew reduction features (or bonus xp to crew) even when crew levels were a thing.

What I did not like about crew levels:
* Harder early game (crew was mostly green, with low CR)
* Meaningless late (more than enough elites to crew everything at the end, plus new to train replacements)
* Crew Tetris.  Did not like the mini-game of crew management.

Crew of varying levels were separate items, unlike today's marines.

Good riddance to crew levels.
It won't be something hard to manage in case of marine-like implementation and auto assignment (expirienced crew will automatically assigned to warships, no player control over it)
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Serenitis on April 15, 2021, 02:21:32 AM
Good riddance to crew levels.
100% this.
Cluttered UI.
Tedious micro nonsense.
The hillariouisly dumb practice of 'crew laundering'. (Hiring the worst cheap crew, fighting a few battles then selling the now more experienced and more expensive crew.)

Recovery Shuttles are in a weird place.
The only use I've ever got out of them was during long term exploration when you can't just buy more crew whenever you want.
But even then the mod is expensive enough to noticeably degrade either your carrier performance or fighter options, so it's kind of hard to justify using it in the first place.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: isyourmojofly on April 15, 2021, 04:28:29 AM
Am I the only one who uses it just because I don't want people to die?

I think there's a decent case to be made for separating out pilots from generic crew, and perhaps letting them gain XP as well, in the same way that marines do.

One thing that I don't love about the Starsector setting is how disposable humans are. I get that life is cheap, but it's so ludicrously cheap that you have to be cold-blooded in your decision-making; it simply doesn't matter if hundreds of your crew members die, because you can just load up on more. Having them matter in some way would be nice (not that I want ship XP to be a thing, though).
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Scorpixel on April 15, 2021, 05:19:03 AM
Am I the only one who uses it just because I don't want people to die?

I think there's a decent case to be made for separating out pilots from generic crew, and perhaps letting them gain XP as well, in the same way that marines do.

One thing that I don't love about the Starsector setting is how disposable humans are. I get that life is cheap, but it's so ludicrously cheap that you have to be cold-blooded in your decision-making; it simply doesn't matter if hundreds of your crew members die, because you can just load up on more. Having them matter in some way would be nice (not that I want ship XP to be a thing, though).
It's actually surprising how cheap human life is here, especially considering the demographic situation of the sector.
Getting into a talon is no different than jumping in your grave, not that any other fighter has it better other than living ten more seconds.
Qualified personnel is overflowing from everywhere, advanced engineering courses are surprisingly popular when you could get the same result faster by being a professional Russian roulette player.

It's still a game mechanic, same reason why other battling games like M&B, TW or CK have armies almost fight until the last soldier instead of the historical routing around 15% losses.

The hillariouisly dumb practice of 'crew laundering'. (Hiring the worst cheap crew, fighting a few battles then selling the now more experienced and more expensive crew.)
It actually sound really nice, rookie training could definitely be a viable mechanic, like that one MB quest.
(And still better than dumping metric tons of organs, drugs and tanks in the black market for the 50th campaign in a row)
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Lorebot on April 15, 2021, 05:33:03 AM
I'm personally of the opinion that the hullmod should affect pilot losses for the entire fleet, not just the ship it's installed in. They should function more like salvage gantries and surveying equipment do, reduce pilot losses for the entire fleet by a % with diminishing returns. It doesn't make any sense to me that 'Search and Rescue' crews would ignore pilots from other ships in the combat area. 'Oh, there's a survivor over there, but he's not from our carrier...we'll just ignore him and go look for OUR pilots'

The fact that Crew become so expendable that mods like this are effectively pointless past the early game make me wish for more specialized 'crew' types. I feel like there should be an option to pay for actual Pilots, like you can pay for Marines, and they would improve the performance of fighters when you have them. You could still put basic crew in your fighters for basic performance if you didn't want to pay for Pilots or you ran out of them while exploring, but having Pilots would make your fighters better. And just like Marines they could get better over time, I don't know when the system was added to the game or how it actually works but when I mouse over my Marines now it tells me about their disposition and how well they're accustomed to my 'style of command' and I've noticed that when I have less of them their stats go up. If you keep a bunch of pilots for a long time they could get better as their ranks thin out, kinda dark but the weaker pilots would die first and increase the overall performance of the pilot corps as only the best would be left alive.

If I could get a 25% increase in fighter performance for having Pilots, I'd surely be willing to pay them greater salaries than normal crew and put more effort into keeping them alive.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Sarissofoi on April 15, 2021, 06:00:43 AM
That make sense Lorebot.
And having pilots(who also double as crew if not flying vessels) would be nice.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Euripides on April 15, 2021, 06:07:33 AM
I think ultimately solving the issue nicely is going to require some serious brainstorming on crew management, leveling, and fun.
And it's probably going to need to come from modding because I don't think alex and his team are interested in exploring this idea anymore.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Serenitis on April 15, 2021, 06:19:48 AM
I'm personally of the opinion that the hullmod should affect pilot losses for the entire fleet, not just the ship it's installed in. They should function more like salvage gantries and surveying equipment do, reduce pilot losses for the entire fleet by a % with diminishing returns.
This might actually be a good solution.
Either have them as an entirely passive bonus (like gantries).
Or have them each give thier full recovery/protection bonus, but only if they're deployed.
rabbit hole
Recovery/Protection bonus is based on the maximum crew capacity of the ship the shuttles are installed on (more crew space = more room to hold crew picked up mid battle).
This might incentivise using some of the less frequently used ship types.
And might also offer an additional reason to use the extra cabins mod in order to buff this ability further.

Installing the shuttles mod defaults the ship to 'cautious' AI, as the ship is now focusing on picking up unlucky pilots rather than fighting directly. Or in the case of civ ships, being deliberately taken into situations they'd previously avoid in order to perform thier new role.
This can be overridden by an officer.
One of the fighter specific skills could also be amended to include something that makes doing this at least a passably useful choice for an officer.

It'd still be something of a niche. But at least you could lean into it a little without reducing your combat ability (which given the increased difficulty seems unwise).
[close]

The former is balanced by diminishing returns.
The latter by fleet and deployment limits.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Daynen on April 15, 2021, 01:50:17 PM
In a game with infinite money available and effectively infinite crew, a hullmod that reduces losses is easy to discard.  If I'm running carriers, I'd rather have things that make the ship kill faster, die slower, or improve my logistical efficiency; recovery shuttles does none of the above EXCEPT when its fighters are dying rapidly AND use multiple crew in each fighter, in which case something is going very wrong.  If a ship is going into combat you want hullmods that help you win more first.  Recovery shuttles is really more of a "luxury" mod, i.e. a mod you use when you literally have no idea what else to put on a carrier--a situation which should never happen given all the goodies a carrier wants to equip.

The idea of making it a % fleetwide bonus is an interesting one.  It could be right up there with ECM, nav relay and operations center...hell, it could round out a command ship quite nicely now that I think about it.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on April 15, 2021, 02:00:47 PM
I love this hullmod because of the decisions it has players make. You have a way to reduce the amount of casualties your crew take in battle, but it will reduce the performance of your ships by wasting OP. And it is absolutely a waste of OP; crew is very replaceable. Life is very, very cheap in the sector. By not using this hullmod, you as the admiral of your fleet acknowledge that you don't give a *** about your crew except that you have enough to keep your starships operating. That amazing little bit of flavour more than justifies its existence.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Sandor057 on April 15, 2021, 03:28:21 PM
The way I see it, this hullmod may only ever be useful if you are planning on using dedicated carriers for low grade fighters with which you want to drown your opponent in. Even so, it's not cheap. I could think of two ways to make it work:

1. It could be eliminated completely as a hullmod. Instead, you should get a varying percentage after each battle (depending on your overall losses and state of your fleet) which could save some pilots. Don't really know where this number shoud be, but I'd put it somewhere between 10-50%. Then you could maybe have a generalist skill (with another buffing fighters as well, as this alone would not warrant a point, at least for me), which increases the potentional percentages to a maximum of, say 40-80%, if you meet certain criteria (perhaps have some ships you can send for minor CR cost).

2. Alternatively, this could be a hullmod like High Resolution Sensors, meaning that you'd get a fleetwide effect for each ship type it's installed on and then diminishing returns is it's installed on other ships of the same type.

Not sure whether it would be useful to rework it. If relevant skills were reworked as well, perhaps. Also, possibly if one uses a lot of carriers. But as it is I'm not really using it much as I feel I'd have to go out of my way too much to make it work.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Lorebot on April 15, 2021, 05:16:36 PM
Another issue with the hullmod is that ships don't actually lose crew till a battle is over...so a carrier that enters combat on a skeleton crew can potentially lose hundreds of fighters and their pilots and not get any penalty till after the battle is over. You could lose more crew to fighter losses than the ship actually carries in the first place but it'd still be there launching fighters like a boss.

I think the original intention was for ships to actually lose crew, and thus CR, in combat for fighter losses and hull damage and things like Blast Doors and Recovery Shuttles were meant to help prevent a ship losing all its crew during a fight and dying to malfunctions/low CR before it actually gets destroyed by weapons fire. If running out of crew during a fight was actually an issue I think a lot more ppl would worry about it and use hullmods to prevent it instead of just having a Starliner full of disposable crew in the fleet to absorb the losses after the fact.
Title: Re: Recovery Shuttles Balance (?) Discussion
Post by: Thaago on April 26, 2021, 12:08:44 PM
I have found one good use for this hullmod: early game Talon Condors. Talons are cheap and very effective vs pirate threats, especially their light frigates, but the crew cost is high enough to be a problem when hunting system bounties like those given by a contact or when chaining 3-4 bounty targets together. A talon condor can afford 6 OP (because talons are so cheap) and then talons have no downside. It effectively makes Talons 5 OP instead of 2, which is still fine for the performance that I need at this stage.