Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: SCC on April 08, 2021, 09:16:25 AM
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I remember I once wrote, before 0.95 was released, that I won't mind changing how skills work, if tier 5 skills will become suitably powerful. I am still calmly exploring it, but many are of the opinion that new skills are worse. Perhaps that tier 5 skills aren't suitably strong is a part of the issue.
In 0.9.1, Fleet Logistics was a strong skill, because you got guaranteed recovery of officered ships, -25% ship maintenance, +15% max CR, +30% accessibility for colonies and +25% fleet size for colonies. This skill was strong, because it gave you various bonuses that were generally useful. All this for 3 points for aptitude and 3 points for the skill, or 12% to 6% (less if you pick other leadership skills, since it means aptitude cost becomes a smaller part of points spent on leadership).
In 0.9.5, it was broken into several parts. L3L/Crew Training became the part that increased max CR, and it costs 20% of your points to get there. L5L/Space Operations became the colony boosting part, it costs 33% of your skill points to get there. The supply part became Makeshift Equipment, kinda. Cost is 20% of your points. Guaranteed officer ship recovery is gone. To get all these benefits, you'd have to spend 53% of your skill points.
Even if we ignore Makeshift Equipment, you have to spend 33% of your skillpoints for what once costed 6%-12%. And Fleet Logistics wasn't even the skill that was considered the most universal, the safest pick.
Because that was Loadout Design. What became of it? It's Special Modifications now, which lets you integrate one additional hullmod, and gives all ships +10 max caps and vents. Many people consider it the best skill, but since I'm a bit story point anxious, all it does is let me put some more caps on Omens and some more vents on my Paragon. Other than that, I think I have integrated more than one hullmod on a ship only once. Special Modifications isn't very good, since it only benefits capitals and some specific smaller ships. Caps and ships like Doom or officer ships are where you would put your 3 s-mods and with the most extra OP, they are most likely to benefit from additional vents. It's no longer a skill that buffs your entire fleet, but one that buffs your elite ships.
What it does differently from Space Operations is that it comes at the end of a generally good tree, so it doesn't feel like a wasted point.
I think that a part of the issue with new skills is that tier fives just aren't worth 33% of all of your skill points and the only reason people get them is incidentally, by investing previously 4 skills into the tree and deciding that tier 5 skill they're getting is worth 1 skill point they spend now, regardless of past choices.
I don't really have a big issue with skills as of right now, I'm mostly thinking out loud. Except for the combat tree, where it's actually worse for your flagship performance to try and double-dip combat tree, with the better option being spending points in all other trees (L1L for damage, maybe L3L for CR, tech 2, 4 and 5 for obvious reasons, I2L or R (I've got a preference for R, though)), which may or may not be a failure in design.
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I already feel like to get to tier 5 I need to spend multiple points on irrelevant garbage, spending 2/3 of my levels is NEVER worth it. I would love to get both tech 5 skills and both tier 4 leadership ones, but I don't want to give up the combat tree completely for it.
As a little side note. The new loadout design isn't the special modifications, it's the one before it. That gives you free 20% flux and dissipation on everything. Pretty much the same as getting extra OP and putting it into caps/vents.
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I would like to get both of Technology 5 or Industry 5, but the cost is too high and too many points wasted on junk. Industry 4 is terrible, one for pristine fleet, the other for maximum d-mods. I do not want to waste four points just to get the second Industry 5.
One thing I dislike about the new meta is it pushes frigates, and I feel forced to get Wolfpack Tactics (for +20% damage and more PPT), when I do not want any Leadership.
Also, I want Special Modifications, but if I do that, I am married to the skill because I cannot respec it away, and likely cannot use automated ships thereafter. Admittedly, Tech is probably the least painful tree to double-dip.
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If you are double-dipping tech, why do you consider wolfpack mandatory? You get the PPT bonus from phase corps, as long as you use it on phase frigates. And remnant frigates have huge PPT too (I know you love your alpha radiant, but truth be told, frigates are better even here). It's leadership 4 that I have a problem with, with the current state of lategame bounties at least one of them seems necessary. Unless you get disgustingly, unbelievably lucky with cryopods, I guess, but even them you would want the +2 extras one.
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I am not double-dipping Tech. Just saying that out of the four trees, double-dipping Tech is the least painful.
Most of my frigates are conventional. Phase Corp does no good for them, plus, I want the bonus flux from the other skill. Also, because Doom is good, I will use at least one in my fleet. (Found a d-mod one and nursed it back to health with field repairs.)
I want Combat for better flagship.
I want Tech because of QoL and fun stuff.
I want Industry for 2 (more PPT/CR), Field Repairs (less likely to reload after casualty), and both 5s (well, one of them) because I want to be a colony lord too.
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Technology 10 is the only remotely possible option and even then T1R and T3R are weak endgame picks, while T4R is only for player Doom, as you won't have enough points left for optimal Afflictor build with 9 locked into Tech. At most I'd go to Tech 7 for both EWM and Gunnery.
Combat 10 is nonsense: for almost any ship at least several picks in combat tree will be dead, C4L or R is guaranteed to be one. Odyssey can leverage 9 out of 10 skills... But effects of C1R and C5L are limited for it, so it's not worth the opportunity cost, at most I'd consider Combat 8.
Leadership is mix and match of different stuff to begin with, L1R is garbage, L3R is weak, having both L4 will lock respec almost completely and both L5 are non-combat.
Industry is also mix of different things. Both I1 are very weak, I2 is weak compared to other piloted skills,I4L and I4R work against each-other and both I5 are non-combat.
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Personally I think the new skill system works mostly fine, with the exception of needing to double back all the way to the start of the tree to grab any of the options you didn't grab on the first pass. With many of the skills, if you didn't pick the more specialist option the first time, it is unlikely it would be any more appealing the second time around, but if you want the other skill past it, you have no choice. I'd love to have the tree "unlock" once you grab a tier 5 in it, so you can grab any skills you missed out of order without penalty. That way you can go and grab say carrier group in addition to crew training, without having to also grab auxiliary support when you have no desire to use it.
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Technology 10 is the only remotely possible option and even then T1R and T3R are weak endgame picks, while T4R is only for player Doom, as you won't have enough points left for optimal Afflictor build with 9 locked into Tech. At most I'd go to Tech 7 for both EWM and Gunnery.
Combat 10 is nonsense: for almost any ship at least several picks in combat tree will be dead, C4L or R is guaranteed to be one. Odyssey can leverage 9 out of 10 skills... But effects of C1R and C5L are limited for it, so it's not worth the opportunity cost, at most I'd consider Combat 8.
Leadership is mix and match of different stuff to begin with, L1R is garbage, L3R is weak, having both L4 will lock respec almost completely and both L5 are non-combat.
Industry is also mix of different things. Both I1 are very weak, I2 is weak compared to other piloted skills,I4L and I4R work against each-other and both I5 are non-combat.
L1R is rubbish. I cannot think of a time where it would be useful. except when in a fighting retreat? Even then the larger the fleet the more diulted the buff... I feel that the reduction due to fleet size may be removed here? And perhaps the max overall buff reduced?
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L1R is rubbish. I cannot think of a time where it would be useful. except when in a fighting retreat? Even then the larger the fleet the more diulted the buff... I feel that the reduction due to fleet size may be removed here? And perhaps the max overall buff reduced?
The main use case I see is using it is on the more innately combat oriented civilian hulls, such as a gemini, venture, or maybe even an atlas MKII. If you make sure that your only militarized ships are at most a couple gemini, or a single venture/atlas, you can give them some pretty massive buffs that make them meaningful combatants, and if you have bulk storage you don't really need militarized subsystems on your dedicated logistics craft anyway, since insulated engines does the same job at that point without increasing crew needs.
Especially considering that weapon drills really doesn't amount to a whole lot when you have 180-200 dp worth of combat ships, I think it can be a meaningful choice in the right conditions.
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Hullmods affected by L1R have so minor effects that even 900% buff for single frigate is not worth a skill point, aside from maybe VERY early campaign when you only have 1 or 2 ships to deploy.
And it remains garbage for double-dipping purposes.
L1L falls off a cliff as fleet grows as well, but at least it does something. Though it's primary value is paving access to L2R and L3L.
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Mr Feather
Sorry, yeah, what i meant was that i know what its for but not when it would be useful, as Mr Talar says.
id never choose it over L1L unless it was better than L1L late game, which i consider my previous suggestion helps with a little.
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It feels like the go-to tree this patch, like most all other patches, is the Tech tree as most everything in it is super strong.
Early Leadership not only has fairly weak early tiers compared to the other trees but also holds you hostage and forces you to stick with it if you dare get either of the tier 4 skills, which feels very bad when you can freely move into and out of the other trees so long as you have the points for it (yes, even if combat tree holds your elite skill points hostage, its still not locking you into itself, you can still leave those behind).
L1R looks best if you plan to have a Venture tank in your fleet and want to make it an even more immovable wall with or without Derelict Contingent.
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The ONLY tree I could even theoretically want both tier 5s for is Technology, but the droneships aren't really worth using anyway. Only the radiant is any good, and there are problems with using it.
Leadership and Industry I'd prefer to skip the 5th skill entirely. There's absolutely no reason to get colony management skills when I can simply use AI cores. Even with hegemony bribes it's better and cheaper in the long run. Combat's 5th skills are both good, but not for the same ship so it's easy to choose one or the other.
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what about that 100% cr though? does it only count for drones? i actually never picked that skill because more flux vents and s-mods seems so op, and i read drones are mediocre.
plus, by the time i get to pick it most of my officers will have +15% cr anyhow.
still, if one would NOT pick 15% cr and wait for the 100% skill, this could be really strong.
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It is not a question of tier for me, it is that I know I have 15 skill points to use and there are equally or better skills scattered throughout the trees that suit my play style.
Now, if I unlock a tier block from a tree and it did let me choose both the skills from that tier block without having to take the entire rest of the tree I would probably take a second skill. They would not be based on tier though, it is based on how I want to play.
I guess what I am saying is that the tier does not mean better skill. It is not like gaining a level in a normal game, it is just another option to fill out your character.
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Isn't the +1 S-Mod skill a perma skill? If so, why not unlock it, respec, then grab the Autoships skill?
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getting both requires to have both tier 4 skills.
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not only do i not get two t5 skills
the only time i even get more than 5 in a tree is if im trying to make carrier flagship work in which case i get both 3rd tech skills since i only need one combat skill for that
I think the current tree does not fit the current level cap. Also some skills are kind of pointless and really just feel like skills you have to go through to get the skills you want to use. It might actually be a good idea to rework the tree to have only 4 tiers, simply remove some skills and combine others to condense everything down.
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hm, i really have two issues with the skilltree:
- i dont feel like buffing my frigates
- many skills get next to useless later because they get less powerful the larger the fleet gets. 10% damage for the fleet is good, 3% damage for the fleet not so much. i dont know, maybe i dont get it yet. but fleet size has a soft cap anyhow.
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some t5's also do utterly fail to fit into the tree in the first place
why is the salvage tree's final skill choice... about colonies? how does THAT fit into the skilltree dedicated to... SALVAGING WITH YOUR FLEET
why is the "salvage ai ships" skill in... the utility skill line? hell, why is the "extra build in mod" there too?
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I don't even get T5s the first time around. The only ones that are even tempting are Missile Specialization and Special Modifications.
T5 leadership and industry are utterly useless trash trap options. Oh boy, you get to make five million credits per month after you've already won the game instead of four. Who cares. I assume they're only there for parity with NPC administrators, it'd be "weird" if they could do things you can't, but frankly player/NPC symmetry is overrated.
Automated Ships is cool but pretty useless. You get a single souped-up Paragon and the ability to use AI cores as officers (the latter part is actually more important imo because of how it affects deployment points) but you can't pilot this incredibly cool ship yourself and AI cores are permanently locked to Reckless. Very disappointing beyond the "nice trophy" factor.
System Expertise sounds good on paper but in practice I found it unimpressive even on ships that benefit from nearly every category -- you'd think 50% extra range, +1 charges, and faster recharge on Doom mines would be amazing, but it doesn't really let the ship do anything it couldn't do before. I might consider it for the cooldown reduction on ships with a Burn Drive or similar abilities, I guess, but I very rarely pilot those myself, and on an AI officer excessive Burn Drive use is practically a liability, so...
Special Modifications is solid but it's definitely the weaker and more disposable of the two fitting/flux-related skills. Nice for making your flagships absolutely godlike, but if you want to use it more broadly then I hope you weren't planning on using story points for literally anything else. It also permanently locks you into Tech 5 (Tech is the best tree and I can't imagine ever going for less than Tech 4, so this isn't too bad, but it is still a drawback).
Missile Specialization is absolutely amazing, if you plan on using missile weapons you should have it. I skip it because I'm more of a guns and energy weapons guy, but this is purely a matter of personal preference and not a reflection on their effectiveness.
My build for the early game is usually 4/4/4/3, and then lategame I might spec out of Industry 3 and pick a luxury skill from among the ones I mentioned. Or I might not, because eburn without CR loss is pretty good too.
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Specific ideas I have for tier 5s, to make them less something that you happen upon and more something that you plan for and look forward to...
C5L: I don't think it needs a change.
C5R: Maybe increase charges for weapons with charges? This would make it useful for Paragon.
L5L: Ideally it would become the complete Fleet Logistics 3 (maintenance reduction, +15% CR for all ships, officer ships always recoverable, +30% colony access, +25% colony fleet size) again, but even if I let go of maintenance reduction, that would make C3L redundant.
L5R: No idea. It could become a skill that lets you hire mercs and prolong their contracts without any story point expense, though that one could also become L4R (L4L would simply merge current L4L and L4R). Or it could become some additional carrier skill.
T5L: I'm not sure what to do with this one. Maybe the ability to remove s-mods from ships.
T5R: I'm feeling devilish today. Make it so that you need this skill to use alpha cores as colony administrators.
Both industry tier 5 skills: colonies aren't my jam, I'll let people who care about them more think about this one.
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I don't think tier 5s are something you happen upon. Tier 5s (or 4s in case of industry and leadership) are what you really choose about your character. All the tiers below that are merely picked because they are mandatory and usually one of the choices is obviously better.
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Specific ideas I have for tier 5s, to make them less something that you happen upon and more something that you plan for and look forward to...
C5L: I don't think it needs a change.
C5R: Maybe increase charges for weapons with charges? This would make it useful for Paragon.
L5L: Ideally it would become the complete Fleet Logistics 3 (maintenance reduction, +15% CR for all ships, officer ships always recoverable, +30% colony access, +25% colony fleet size) again, but even if I let go of maintenance reduction, that would make C3L redundant.
L5R: No idea. It could become a skill that lets you hire mercs and prolong their contracts without any story point expense, though that one could also become L4R (L4L would simply merge current L4L and L4R). Or it could become some additional carrier skill.
T5L: I'm not sure what to do with this one. Maybe the ability to remove s-mods from ships.
T5R: I'm feeling devilish today. Make it so that you need this skill to use alpha cores as colony administrators.
Both industry tier 5 skills: colonies aren't my jam, I'll let people who care about them more think about this one.
Suggestion for Automated Ships. Allow player to remove sticky Alpha cores from his colonies (with likely story point cost).
As for Industry, it seems the only advantage L has over R is it is easier to forget L and not hurt as much. Also, it seems possible to get R first to get three admins, forget the skill, then get L so player can rule five colonies with IP admins without cores. The third admin is effectively a sticky core, but if player assembled his final admins and placed at their final resting place, it looks like a way for player to get the best of both L and R, -1 colony.
I kind of want L for four planets with Industrial Planning, if I am considering no-item colonies, but R seems better. The +50% production is offset by building more Heavy Industries on the extra two planets, and three planets with IP admins may be enough.
I want to see I5L with additional +income or some other bonus. L seems weak when R can easily emulate most of the benefits of L and/or +2 stability of Leadership 5R.
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what about that 100% cr though? does it only count for drones? i actually never picked that skill because more flux vents and s-mods seems so op, and i read drones are mediocre.
That 100% is misleading, automated ships have a flat -100% penalty to CR that the skill counteracts so +100% just means they get the default 70% instead of being stuck at 0% (actually -30%).
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cool, thank you kdr.
hm, the more i think about this i tend to say that a classical skill tree with skill progression might not be the best solution for this game.
make each skill selectable without prerequesits, but keep the 1 out of 2 limitation. this would probably mean it would never be possible to pick two form one slot, but i think this was fine.
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why is the salvage tree's final skill choice... about colonies? how does THAT fit into the skilltree dedicated to... SALVAGING WITH YOUR FLEET
Well, the "salvage tree" is actually the Industry tree, so...