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Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: sotanaht on April 06, 2021, 05:22:14 PM

Title: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: sotanaht on April 06, 2021, 05:22:14 PM
Not Tachyon Lance, that thing is powerful enough.

Every other beam weapon though, particularly Tactical Lasers and Graviton Beams, ESPECIALLY Gravitons, simply don't do enough damage.  I realize that they can function for zoning AI, but considering how weak they are that seems more like an exploit/bug than a proper feature.  If the AI were smart, it would simply ignore those beams completely.   Even without shields, Tactical Lasers aren't really a threat, even focusing several on a frigate can take upwards of 10 continuous seconds to kill.  Gravitons are even worse, since they practically only do "damage" to shields, and that damage is so low it would be negligible as a small mount at half the cost.

I've been testing with (most) beams modified for 2x to 3x damage and they still feel kind of weak, but once in a while they can actually hurt something so maybe that's good enough.  As a mechanic soft flux is so much less effective that I think it deserves to be much more efficient in terms of cost to fire, and this sort of multiplier seems to work alright.

Edit: For the most part I don't actually use beam weapons on my own ships, except the Tachyons.  My testing mostly consists of seeing what it feels like to go up against beam-heavy enemy fleets.  Without changes, they are so pathetic I actually feel sorry for them.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Chthonic One on April 06, 2021, 06:17:28 PM
I think the point of beams is to force the enemy to lower their shields, so that you can then use anti-armor to pierce their armor next. If you didn't they would let the anti-armor weapons detonate uselessly against their shields.

Once the armor is down, those weapons deal just as much damage as the anti-armor weapons to the hull. What you are having issues with is that those ships you are fighting have armor as well as shields.

Bring something to deal with the armor as well as the shields.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: bobucles on April 06, 2021, 06:24:25 PM
Beams are snowball weapons. When a handful of beams pressure an enemy, they shrug it of and nothing happens. When TOO many beams pressure an enemy, death is inevitable.

For defense, any number of beams is fine. For offense, it's all or nothing. If the beams don't overwhelm the ship, they won't do the job.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: sotanaht on April 06, 2021, 06:46:25 PM
Beams are snowball weapons. When a handful of beams pressure an enemy, they shrug it of and nothing happens. When TOO many beams pressure an enemy, death is inevitable.

For defense, any number of beams is fine. For offense, it's all or nothing. If the beams don't overwhelm the ship, they won't do the job.
That number is too high.  Even massive AI fleets can't focus enough beam firepower to blow up frigates (again, ignoring Tachyons).  If a dozen ships are focusing a frigate it damn well should die.

I think the point of beams is to force the enemy to lower their shields, so that you can then use anti-armor to pierce their armor next. If you didn't they would let the anti-armor weapons detonate uselessly against their shields.

Once the armor is down, those weapons deal just as much damage as the anti-armor weapons to the hull. What you are having issues with is that those ships you are fighting have armor as well as shields.

Bring something to deal with the armor as well as the shields.
If anything the point of beams is to force the enemy to keep shields up, because shields shrug off anything but the most overwhelming concentrated attack with beams.  Gravitons don't damage shields OR armor, and for 9 OP and a medium slot, that's unforgivable.  Tactical Lasers can damage armor slightly, but again even at frigate level the damage isn't very noticeable.

In any case I think that the AI behavior should reflect player behavior.  If the players don't think beams are worth worrying about, they will be frustrated when their AI ships pussyfoot around in fear of those same beams.  So either buff beams so that players behave in the same way their AI ships do, or change the AI to behave the same way that players do, the former is easier to accomplish than the latter, and the latter leaves beams as entirely worthless instead of just weak.


One thing I haven't really thought about much is the new hard flux beam hull mod.  Buff beam damage too far and that could be overpowered.  As it is, beams aren't nearly strong enough to justify being among the shortest range weapons after that hullmod, AND paying an extra OP cost for the hullmod itself.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Baqar79 on April 06, 2021, 07:27:56 PM
Phase Lances I thought were pretty decent as far as medium beam weapons go.  The High Scatter Amplifier hull mod is interesting in that it converts beam weapon damage to hard flux, but the range penalty seems excessive enough that I haven't used it (as an idea perhaps it could be made mutually exclusive with the ITU and Advanced Optics instead of the range penalty so that smaller ships would benefit more from it).

I guess with energy weapons they are supposed to be more generalist and do 100% damage vs Shields & Armour as compared to ballistic weapons specialization into both Kinetic and High Explosive damage variants.  There are however 2 oddities to this; the Graviton beam (Medium anti-shield) and High Intensity Laser (Large anti-armour).

I think Medium and Large energy mounts have a good selection of beam weapons (Tachyon Lance & HIL for large or Phase Lance & Graviton beam for medium), but small energy mounts are pretty much limited to the beam weapons tactical laser or point defense.

While I'm just thinking of what I would like and throwing numbers around that look fair; I would like to see a small energy slot version of the HIL (~7 OP cost), short range (500/450 units) at around 150 high explosive damage (eg 75 damage shield, 300 damage armour), increase tactical laser damage from 75 to 100 damage and the Graviton beam damage from 100 to 150 (300 damage shield, 75 damage armour).
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Ramiel on April 06, 2021, 08:52:34 PM
They really do, Tachyon and phase lances, and pd lasers are the only beam weapons worth using.....
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Warnoise on April 06, 2021, 09:02:55 PM
Not Tachyon Lance, that thing is powerful enough.

Every other beam weapon though, particularly Tactical Lasers and Graviton Beams, ESPECIALLY Gravitons, simply don't do enough damage.  I realize that they can function for zoning AI, but considering how weak they are that seems more like an exploit/bug than a proper feature.  If the AI were smart, it would simply ignore those beams completely.   Even without shields, Tactical Lasers aren't really a threat, even focusing several on a frigate can take upwards of 10 continuous seconds to kill.  Gravitons are even worse, since they practically only do "damage" to shields, and that damage is so low it would be negligible as a small mount at half the cost.

I've been testing with (most) beams modified for 2x to 3x damage and they still feel kind of weak, but once in a while they can actually hurt something so maybe that's good enough.  As a mechanic soft flux is so much less effective that I think it deserves to be much more efficient in terms of cost to fire, and this sort of multiplier seems to work alright.

Edit: For the most part I don't actually use beam weapons on my own ships, except the Tachyons.  My testing mostly consists of seeing what it feels like to go up against beam-heavy enemy fleets.  Without changes, they are so pathetic I actually feel sorry for them.

No they don't need buff...
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: sotanaht on April 06, 2021, 11:36:32 PM
No they don't need buff...
Care to explain?  Let's focus on Graviton Beams for now, since they are the most egregious problem.  If you can explain why they don't need buffs, it probably covers everything else as well.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Scorpixel on April 07, 2021, 03:11:25 AM
No they don't need buff...
Care to explain?  Let's focus on Graviton Beams for now, since they are the most egregious problem.  If you can explain why they don't need buffs, it probably covers everything else as well.
Gravitons do hidden work, as they constantly reduce the flux available for the enemy. 2 gravitons is -400flux/s which can seriously cripple the offensive power of most enemies, useful when you want to save op for high quality weaponry and win the flux war.
It's a 1000 range pressure armament, of course it's not going to single-handedly kill anything with it's damage equal to that of a LR-PD against armour.
The simplest beam combo would be Tachyon Sunder with two gravitons.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: TaLaR on April 07, 2021, 03:17:21 AM
Gravitons have 2 use case:
1) On a 4TL Paragon, to simply overwhelm enemies with soft flux.
2) On a ship using hard flux weapons, to reduce amount of flux enemy has for weapons.

In both cases you need to be wary of enemies with super efficient shields. You spend 75 flux for 200 raw shield damage. If enemy has shield better than 0.375 (not accounting for Targeting Analysis/etc) you are losing flux war just by firing the Graviton beam.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: sotanaht on April 07, 2021, 03:38:03 AM
No they don't need buff...
Care to explain?  Let's focus on Graviton Beams for now, since they are the most egregious problem.  If you can explain why they don't need buffs, it probably covers everything else as well.
Gravitons do hidden work, as they constantly reduce the flux available for the enemy. 2 gravitons is -400flux/s which can seriously cripple the offensive power of most enemies, useful when you want to save op for high quality weaponry and win the flux war.
It's a 1000 range pressure armament, of course it's not going to single-handedly kill anything with it's damage equal to that of a LR-PD against armour.
The simplest beam combo would be Tachyon Sunder with two gravitons.
Except that's not how it works at all.  Beams do not cripple the offensive capability of anything.  Ships keep firing until they run out of flux, or the AI fears they are about to run out of flux.  Beams don't cause that.  At best, they might make it happen faster, but that's what every weapon does.  Beams are simply worse at it than every other weapon.  What they need is a higher DPS number until they are able to accomplish the job.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Scorpixel on April 07, 2021, 05:12:22 AM
Except that's not how it works at all.  Beams do not cripple the offensive capability of anything.  Ships keep firing until they run out of flux, or the AI fears they are about to run out of flux.  Beams don't cause that.  At best, they might make it happen faster, but that's what every weapon does.  Beams are simply worse at it than every other weapon.  What they need is a higher DPS number until they are able to accomplish the job.
Which is the price for being a long ranged perfect accuracy, fast turning, instantaneous and continuous weapon type.
There would be no reason to use hard-flux weaponry if those were less effective than the soft ones in every way.

And yes of course i'm talking about flux denial, just forcing the shields and reducing the on-paper available flux at a guaranteed pace and ratio mean that the AI derps once at high flux as is doesn't know what to do and just stands there not firing and shield-flickering until it's too late.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Immahnoob on April 07, 2021, 05:35:53 AM
Use High Scatter Amplifier.

Problem solved.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Megas on April 07, 2021, 06:19:18 AM
Use High Scatter Amplifier.

Problem solved.
With the range reduction, it turns them into worse IR Pulse Lasers that cost more OP.  Just get IR Pulse Lasers instead.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: sotanaht on April 07, 2021, 06:46:13 AM
Except that's not how it works at all.  Beams do not cripple the offensive capability of anything.  Ships keep firing until they run out of flux, or the AI fears they are about to run out of flux.  Beams don't cause that.  At best, they might make it happen faster, but that's what every weapon does.  Beams are simply worse at it than every other weapon.  What they need is a higher DPS number until they are able to accomplish the job.
Which is the price for being a long ranged perfect accuracy, fast turning, instantaneous and continuous weapon type.
There would be no reason to use hard-flux weaponry if those were less effective than the soft ones in every way.

And yes of course i'm talking about flux denial, just forcing the shields and reducing the on-paper available flux at a guaranteed pace and ratio mean that the AI derps once at high flux as is doesn't know what to do and just stands there not firing and shield-flickering until it's too late.
Beams suffer from BOTH soft flux and low damage.  If it were just one, they wouldn't be too bad.  Both though makes them worthless.  Graviton beam is 100 dps, for a medium slot with 9 OP.  A pulse laser is 300 DPS in the same slot for 1 more OP that does hard flux.  Soft flux alone would be enough of a penalty for the range, losing two thirds of the DPS as well is overkill.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Immahnoob on April 07, 2021, 06:51:21 AM
Use High Scatter Amplifier.

Problem solved.
With the range reduction, it turns them into worse IR Pulse Lasers that cost more OP.  Just get IR Pulse Lasers instead.
Not with Advanced Optics and ITU they don't. The flux cost is lower, the range is still higher and they either do more damage to shields or do the same damage to hull.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Dex on April 07, 2021, 07:44:51 AM
Just to chuck in my 'too sense'. Beams are fine for the reasons already mentioned. They are pressure weapons.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Grievous69 on April 07, 2021, 07:47:34 AM
Use High Scatter Amplifier.

Problem solved.
With the range reduction, it turns them into worse IR Pulse Lasers that cost more OP.  Just get IR Pulse Lasers instead.
Not with Advanced Optics and ITU they don't. The flux cost is lower, the range is still higher and they either do more damage to shields or do the same damage to hull.
You forgot the part where you spent a half of the OPs on hullmods just to make beams wacky and quirky.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Immahnoob on April 07, 2021, 07:50:47 AM
Use High Scatter Amplifier.

Problem solved.
With the range reduction, it turns them into worse IR Pulse Lasers that cost more OP.  Just get IR Pulse Lasers instead.
Not with Advanced Optics and ITU they don't. The flux cost is lower, the range is still higher and they either do more damage to shields or do the same damage to hull.
You forgot the part where you spent a half of the OPs on hullmods just to make beams wacky and quirky.
I forgot the part where you wouldn't get those hull mods in the first place.
The only hull mod that is "extra" is High Scatter Amplifier.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Grievous69 on April 07, 2021, 07:58:26 AM
Yeah you're right, Advanced Optics is a must on every midline and high tech ship.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: KDR_11k on April 07, 2021, 03:07:13 PM
Beams have long range and low flux cost. They kinda have to be weak or enough beams on a fleet would turn them into a death wall that no frigate or fighter can cross since you're not gonna dodge them. The 1000 range ones will hit you before any serious weapons on a smaller ship are in range.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: sotanaht on April 07, 2021, 03:33:19 PM
Beams have long range and low flux cost. They kinda have to be weak or enough beams on a fleet would turn them into a death wall that no frigate or fighter can cross since you're not gonna dodge them. The 1000 range ones will hit you before any serious weapons on a smaller ship are in range.
A massed fleet should be a death wall.  No frigate or fighter should be able to get in between 20 ships all bunched up and waiting for it.  And that's exactly true with non-beam weapons.  As it is, if you are piloting a frigate and see the enemy fleet is beam heavy, you know that it's SAFER to try to get between them than it would if they didn't use beams.

I've been testing with doubled beams and tripled gravitons in my own game and frigates still get through remnant fleets, so it's probably still not enough.
Use High Scatter Amplifier.

Problem solved.
With the range reduction, it turns them into worse IR Pulse Lasers that cost more OP.  Just get IR Pulse Lasers instead.
Not with Advanced Optics and ITU they don't. The flux cost is lower, the range is still higher and they either do more damage to shields or do the same damage to hull.
Way less damage to shields and hull.  300dps is the low-end for medium weapons.  Even small weapons usually do more than the 100 that the graviton does.

Use High Scatter Amplifier.

Problem solved.
With the range reduction, it turns them into worse IR Pulse Lasers that cost more OP.  Just get IR Pulse Lasers instead.
Not with Advanced Optics and ITU they don't. The flux cost is lower, the range is still higher and they either do more damage to shields or do the same damage to hull.
You forgot the part where you spent a half of the OPs on hullmods just to make beams wacky and quirky.
I forgot the part where you wouldn't get those hull mods in the first place.
The only hull mod that is "extra" is High Scatter Amplifier.
You wouldn't get Advanced Optics either, if you aren't using beams, because beams are too weak to be worth the OP.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: SapphireSage on April 07, 2021, 03:45:54 PM
I've been running around with Wolfpack Tempests equipped with Hvy Blaster and Scatter Amped Gravitons and the gravitons have been doing a pretty good job of providing shield suppression at a flux cost offsetting the Hvy Blaster's hunger. Especially with other Tempests hanging around ganging up on a single target. Don't forget that Gravitons are Kinetic damage and so in this case will do 200 hard flux DPS on shields for a very minor 75 f/s.

2 Pulse lasers can do 600 DPS on shields at 1 to 1 flux to damage but has issues against punching through heavy armor common with bounties, and 1 Hvy blaster with a pulse laser can do 800 DPS but will be very flux hungry to a tempest lowering its sustainability.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: sotanaht on April 07, 2021, 04:51:32 PM
I've been running around with Wolfpack Tempests equipped with Hvy Blaster and Scatter Amped Gravitons and the gravitons have been doing a pretty good job of providing shield suppression at a flux cost offsetting the Hvy Blaster's hunger. Especially with other Tempests hanging around ganging up on a single target. Don't forget that Gravitons are Kinetic damage and so in this case will do 200 hard flux DPS on shields for a very minor 75 f/s.

2 Pulse lasers can do 600 DPS on shields at 1 to 1 flux to damage but has issues against punching through heavy armor common with bounties, and 1 Hvy blaster with a pulse laser can do 800 DPS but will be very flux hungry to a tempest lowering its sustainability.
You don't need or want sustainability with fast frigates.  The longer you are in the more danger to you.  Better to dump your load fast and get out.  2 heavy blasters works best for that (maybe even 2 mining blasters).  The AI actually does that anyway, they never stay close to the enemy for long.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Voyager I on April 07, 2021, 08:11:21 PM
Dual Phases is my go-to for Tempests.  Zip in, pop F, unload a pile of damage, and zip back out to cool off while the lances cycle.  Advanced Optics can give them the extra poke range to stay relevant in larger fights where the battlespace becomes more hostile to small ships, and jumping Phase Lances from 600 > 800 range is way more relevant than any other range bonus you can get on a frigate hullmod.

The sheer volume of soft flux is enough to overwhelm anything else in their weight class, even REDACTED frigates.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Thaago on April 07, 2021, 08:25:40 PM
... I've got a lasher with 1 railgun and 2 (!!!) light mortars! Does that count as high performance? :D
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Mordodrukow on April 07, 2021, 08:30:30 PM
Quote
High Scatter Amplifier
Greatness of this mod is compared only to Shield Shunt. You not only make your ship worse, but also need to pay OP for that.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: sotanaht on April 08, 2021, 03:07:36 AM
Dual Phases is my go-to for Tempests.  Zip in, pop F, unload a pile of damage, and zip back out to cool off while the lances cycle.  Advanced Optics can give them the extra poke range to stay relevant in larger fights where the battlespace becomes more hostile to small ships, and jumping Phase Lances from 600 > 800 range is way more relevant than any other range bonus you can get on a frigate hullmod.

The sheer volume of soft flux is enough to overwhelm anything else in their weight class, even REDACTED frigates.
I used to use Phase Lances with Hyperions last patch.  If you can get them on an exposed target they are pretty good, although blowing through shields isn't usually possible.  Damage on Phase Lance is OK but its usage is extremely niche, and probably obsolete now.  I figure boosting it to the same 1000 unit range as every other offensive beam would probably be sufficient as a buff, but even that is less absolutely essential than buffing gravitons.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Euripides on April 08, 2021, 05:27:36 AM
I just don't use beams for anything, they're less effective than any other weapon I could be using in their place.

Exceptions are the classic phase lance, tachyon, etc.
And also Scy and Diable's EMP beams (diable's could do with a small buff though) which I found nice to use on frigates - vapors in particular with the hacking commlink. They deal very small damage through the shield and sometimes put a module offline through the shield. That's the kind of utility beams need if they're gonna be worth bothering with.

So far the only thing I found beams useful for was super long range anti-fighter work using the point defense hullmod. My conclusion is that, yes beams can be viable, but I can also just use something even more viable instead.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Maethendias on April 08, 2021, 12:45:31 PM
the problem with beams is the way their dps works...


cause it doesnt actually do as much dps as is stated (talking about BEAMS here, not pulse beams (phase/tachyon))

even graviton beams, meant to pressure shields, dont really do anything against shields, despite having a 200% bonus against shields, and doing 100 dps... which would be around... 200 or 300 dps? i dont know how damage is calculated

but i DO know that 2 of them still do way less shield damage than even ion cannons... and they only do 50 dps without shield bonus... (im talking straight flux here, irrelevant if its soft or hard flux)

like, beam weapons really dont feel like they do the damage that they tell you they do on paper.... especially tacticals, 75 dps? per laser? AS IF

it really seems because of the nature of venting beam weapons just cant really deliver their dps effectively, hell, even WITHOUT shields they horribly underperform (with the exception of the intense laser, it is the only beam weapon that acutally has noticable impact on shields ironically considering its heavy shield damage debuff)

the only way to make beams "work" rn is to spam them... and at that point why not spam energy projectile weapons with hard flux and do a way better job with way less effort (not to mention focusfiring with beam spam is harder than youd think in actual battles... allies getting in the way and all)

hell, beams even suck at "suppressing" enemies... cause having enemies run away to the edges of the map to get out of your laser reach just so they can vent is... not what you want...


what you ACTUALLY want is for enemy ships to vent in reach of your weapons, not for the enemy to travel to the end of the galaxy to do it, cause your laser always shot their shields... so ye, even the role people think they are good for isnt a good thing
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Maethendias on April 08, 2021, 12:46:57 PM
They really do, Tachyon and phase lances, and pd lasers are the only beam weapons worth using.....

tachyon and phase lances arent beams, they are... lances

and pd lasers are by far the worst pd in the game, safe for mining lasers...

and not by much
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Maethendias on April 08, 2021, 12:49:10 PM
Just to chuck in my 'too sense'. Beams are fine for the reasons already mentioned. They are pressure weapons.

pressure that hurts YOU more than it hurts the ai you pressure...

again, you dont want them venting or dropping their shields to passive vent OUTSIDE of your weapon ranges
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Thaago on April 08, 2021, 12:56:00 PM
Beams apply "soft" flux. They don't move the hard flux subbar up at all, but increase total flux instead. For enemy ships that are not firing, it can seem like the beams do nothing if the incoming flux is less than their dissipation. However, if they are firing, their flux will rapidly increase.

To see for yourself - fight the sim eagle with 3 graviton beams with your shields up. For any ship without fantastic shields/dissipation, it really impacts how much you can fire.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Maethendias on April 08, 2021, 01:29:54 PM
Beams apply "soft" flux. They don't move the hard flux subbar up at all, but increase total flux instead. For enemy ships that are not firing, it can seem like the beams do nothing if the incoming flux is less than their dissipation. However, if they are firing, their flux will rapidly increase.

To see for yourself - fight the sim eagle with 3 graviton beams with your shields up. For any ship without fantastic shields/dissipation, it really impacts how much you can fire.

aka any ship you could already kill with weapons that would do the job much faster
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: HUcast on April 08, 2021, 01:54:42 PM
The problem with beam weapons that I see is that on paper they are good for pressuring an opponent. But in practice, with real shield efficiency values, that is almost never the case. In the actual game environment, especially now with officer spam, the actual threats to the player never have shields at 1.0 efficiency, that beingthe value most people cite who think they are good pressure tools. Most revenant ships have better than .5 with skills, even midline ships easily beat 1.0. At values like those, killing an enemy through soft Flux or even giving him pause with it is impossible. A pressure tool for the enemy now builds up substantially more Flux on you than then them. For beam weapons to be worth the far worse dps and lack of hard Flux they need to be able to give you some kind of an advantage... and I suppose that might bring up the thought; "hey, so what? All weapons have to deal with better shields too." The main difference is that they still inflict hard Flux. Being inefficient against enemy soft Flux is worse than doing nothing at all.

If I had to present a solution, I would change beams into complete pressure weapons, starting out very, very weak and inefficient at first, but over the course of 5 to 10 seconds of direct burn becoming more and more efficient and deadly. That or a quick fix of making them actually doing something against armor, which only the high intensity laser can do at the moment, and that has the disadvantage of being even WORSE against shields, if that's even possible.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Retry on April 08, 2021, 02:01:40 PM
They really do, Tachyon and phase lances, and pd lasers are the only beam weapons worth using.....
tachyon and phase lances arent beams, they are... lances
Let's see how long we can go through each of those weapon's descriptions before we encounter the word "Beam".

Tachyon Lance
"A burst operated beam..."

Phase Lance
"A short-range, short-duration beam..."
the problem with beams is the way their dps works...


cause it doesnt actually do as much dps as is stated
Enlighten us with specifics.  If that's actually true, that is a bug.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Darloth on April 08, 2021, 03:53:02 PM
While I don't have enough data or experience to have a solid opinion on whether beams are ok or not vs ships, I can tell you one use-case where they are pretty excellent.

Beams kill fighters.  Any beam, doesn't matter  - but tactical lasers, phase lances, and even graviton beams will do the trick.  Fighters can't dodge them and don't usually have the armour to stop them for long, unlike ships.   They kill fighters from very far away and without costing a great deal.  Is this enough of a niche? I don't know yet - but it -*is* a niche that nothing else really excels at, at least at those ranges.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Rauschkind on April 08, 2021, 04:33:34 PM
could be me not understanding these weapons but yeah, there are only two beam weapons i ever use and one i only ever use on the paragon.

the one beam weapon i do use a lot is high intensity laser. it is really bad against shields of course, but once shield are down its just nuts damage. very good weapon i think, but of course it needs to be combined with weapons that cause hard flux.

i also use tac lasers on the paragon which i give point defense ai. hull bonus and lots of small energy slots make this worth while on the paragon but on few other ships. champion is another good option too, with 8 small energy mounts. however, a single paragon pretty much is enough pd for the whole fleet.

i read a lot that tach laser or whas it called is good but i dont like it. aside of the emp its a rather weak weapon i think, but the emp needs shield down or at least some hard flux on the target. at that point, high intensity laser is much more effective.
plus, i use a lot of ion pulsers. i dont really need more emp.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: cerberusti on April 08, 2021, 04:40:18 PM
To each their own I suppose.

I default to graviton for slots which can hold it, and high intensity lasers are a real contender for large slots. 

Flux generated by gravitons makes their offense much less.  Most ships are not balanced with more flux dissipation than their weapons generate, and so they do much less shooting when under fire.  It also helps keep anything entering somewhat long range under fire, with its shields up, for very little flux cost.

The HIL is murderous in player hands, I can win against a mighty fleet with a sunder and a HIL.  It opens up armor very easily, has long range, and is easy to aim perfectly.  Soft flux does not matter so much as I generally do not fire it at targets with shields up.  In a turret it clears fighters and small ships very quickly, assuming you can power it.

Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: RemnantAI on April 08, 2021, 05:22:26 PM
A major benefit of beams is the accuracy, except the Particle/Tach lance, due to delay.
Beams can hit pesky frigates, missiles, fighters, and don't waste shots... Except the damn lances, which is a shame. Long range point defense can actually be a detriment, because inaccurate projectiles will waste flux, and get distracted from imminent threats. Firing into inaccurate range could mean less damage on a missile before it lands due to weapon delay.
I think the main problem is that there are not enough beams in various roles, and complimentary ranges to be effective. Burst beams have too few charges, don't get the full bonus of expanded magazines, and regenerate too slowly.

The Paladin is actually pretty potent with High Scatter. It isn't as crazy as Tach lances, but suffers from being PD and only getting the 60% range bonus instead of 100% on a Paragon.
30 Paladin beams with hard flux can be unloaded fairly quickly for a great deal of precise damage. Unfortunately there is not a medium slot counter part.

Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Maethendias on April 08, 2021, 05:25:48 PM
A major benefit of beams is the accuracy, except the Particle/Tach lance, due to delay.
Beams can hit pesky frigates, missiles, fighters, and don't waste shots... Except the damn lances, which is a shame. Long range point defense can actually be a detriment, because inaccurate projectiles will waste flux, and get distracted from imminent threats. Firing into inaccurate range could mean less damage on a missile before it lands due to weapon delay.
I think the main problem is that there are not enough beams in various roles, and complimentary ranges to be effective. Burst beams have too few charges, don't get the full bonus of expanded magazines, and regenerate too slowly.

The Paladin is actually pretty potent with High Scatter. It isn't as crazy as Tach lances, but suffers from being PD and only getting the 60% range bonus instead of 100% on a Paragon.
30 Paladin beams with hard flux can be unloaded fairly quickly for a great deal of precise damage. Unfortunately there is not a medium slot counter part.

pro tip: use phaselances for shrikes in the medium instead of mining lasers or blasters

i can only recommend it
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Thaago on April 08, 2021, 06:30:35 PM
Seconded for shrikes for phase lances, especially backed up by a couple IR pulses or a railgun on the pirate one. A boring old pulse laser + an antimatter blaster is also a good combo.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Warnoise on April 08, 2021, 06:41:38 PM
Again, beams are supposed to be support weapons, not main damage weapons. Other some fee exceptions like the tachyon Lance, beams are mainly used to support main damage weapons at low flux cost. I have an eagle with 2 gravitons and 1 ion beam and they do their job pretty well as a long range pressure weapon
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: sotanaht on April 08, 2021, 07:00:02 PM
Again, beams are supposed to be support weapons, not main damage weapons. Other some fee exceptions like the tachyon Lance, beams are mainly used to support main damage weapons at low flux cost. I have an eagle with 2 gravitons and 1 ion beam and they do their job pretty well as a long range pressure weapon
If they cost more than they do AFTER you consider the effect of spending that same OP on vents, they are worse than useless: they hurt you more than they hurt the enemy.  Remember that.  The OP matters as part of their flux cost, because it's vents you won't have.  If you're filling slots with beams theres absolutely no way you are going to max out vents/caps, even without including the flux hullmods.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Retry on April 08, 2021, 08:07:38 PM
Again, beams are supposed to be support weapons, not main damage weapons. Other some fee exceptions like the tachyon Lance, beams are mainly used to support main damage weapons at low flux cost. I have an eagle with 2 gravitons and 1 ion beam and they do their job pretty well as a long range pressure weapon
If they cost more than they do AFTER you consider the effect of spending that same OP on vents
This is at odds with how ship outfitting actually works; Vents are finite resouces with a defined maximum value, and dissipation is of such great importance that sound design practices for the vast majority of warships (Pure carriers, Phase ships, and Civillian vessels are the only exceptions) has one maximizing vents on said warship by default, and only digging into them if one must do so to make a build work.  There's no consideration of what you can do after spending the same OP on vents because your vents are already maximized.

Eagle is a good example of this, with 850 flux dissipation with vents maxed (and a bit more if Flux Distributor is also installed), the most important slots of this ship are the front-mounted Medium Ballistics.  When using most ballistic options (ex: HVDs, Heavy Maulers, Heavy Mortars, HACs), you're already utilizing 1/2 to 3/4 of your flux dissipation already, before considering your own shield upkeep.  The second-most important slots of this ship are the turreted Medium Energies.  All of those, however, are far more flux-intensive than the Ballistics that are already taking up most of your flux budget.

All of those except the Graviton Beam, that is.  At 75 flux/s it's not heavy to run at all and can operate freely alongside your more-important ballistics without impeding operations, producing 200 soft flux damage per second on hitting shields.

And yes, you can fill out the 3 energies with things like Gravitons while maintaining full vents + Distributor and all the other components necessary for a competent warship.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Thaago on April 08, 2021, 08:15:03 PM
Without how good frigates are this version, I think I'm going to get myself an Eagle to front for my carrier fleet and pop them. 3 Gravs + 3 Tacs with ITU and Gunnery is 1550 range without advanced optics, enough to get nearly the whole 30% ranged specialization bonus. Along with L1L at 5% and another 5% for CR, thats looking like 825*1.35 =~1100 soft flux shield pressure at very high accuracy. Even shield tanks down under .5 won't like that pointed at them.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Rauschkind on April 08, 2021, 08:17:02 PM
pft. of course they work if you abuse the eagle hull!

*runs*

serious:
i eagle is one of my favorite hulls. beefy and that manouver thrusters even give a speed bonus. base speed is not THAT bad neither.
but that brings me to my point: isnt this hull much better suited to safety override it?
maybe the champion was better for that, you can fit 4 tac, 2 medium beams, a large one AND it gets high energy focuss
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Maethendias on April 09, 2021, 01:09:13 AM
pft. of course they work if you abuse the eagle hull!

*runs*

serious:
i eagle is one of my favorite hulls. beefy and that manouver thrusters even give a speed bonus. base speed is not THAT bad neither.
but that brings me to my point: isnt this hull much better suited to safety override it?
maybe the champion was better for that, you can fit 4 tac, 2 medium beams, a large one AND it gets high energy focuss

i personally only so high tech ships, because that mod synergizes so well with the philosophy of high tech, shrikes, auroras, even apogees become beasts with so, and they have all "flux dependent" defences, like speed or efficient shields

i personally dont like to use so on other ships, because it takes away what THOSE ships could do, prime example eagle

eagle is an arty plattform in my eyes... so would turn it into a worse aurora
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: ninjaelk on April 09, 2021, 10:53:06 AM
i personally only so high tech ships, because that mod synergizes so well with the philosophy of high tech, shrikes, auroras, even apogees become beasts with so, and they have all "flux dependent" defences, like speed or efficient shields

i personally dont like to use so on other ships, because it takes away what THOSE ships could do, prime example eagle

eagle is an arty plattform in my eyes... so would turn it into a worse aurora

Assuming it's a worse Aurora at that point doesn't mean that's not still a more effective build for the Eagle. Some ships are just worse than others at their best role, and some roles that certain ships are good at just aren't roles worth using. That being said, for certain fleet compositions, 22 deploy cost on an SO Eagle could easily make it a much better pick over an SO Aurora which costs 30.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: cerberusti on April 09, 2021, 12:39:08 PM
Again, beams are supposed to be support weapons, not main damage weapons. Other some fee exceptions like the tachyon Lance, beams are mainly used to support main damage weapons at low flux cost. I have an eagle with 2 gravitons and 1 ion beam and they do their job pretty well as a long range pressure weapon
If they cost more than they do AFTER you consider the effect of spending that same OP on vents, they are worse than useless: they hurt you more than they hurt the enemy.  Remember that.  The OP matters as part of their flux cost, because it's vents you won't have.  If you're filling slots with beams theres absolutely no way you are going to max out vents/caps, even without including the flux hullmods.
If you plan to win on flux, you have minimal shield damage to you, full vents, a flux distributor in most cases, and still need to get flux down a bit so that you are not at a deficit with the shields up and most guns firing.  Gravitons are amazing in that context.

I leave slots empty if I cannot support them as well.  That is a better idea than a gun you cannot afford to fire much.

Flux efficiency is very important in a weapon to be fired at targets with shields, although it does not matter as much for your anti armor weapons, so long as they are under manual control.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Igncom1 on April 09, 2021, 12:48:15 PM
I pair my gravitons with my heavy blasters on my tempests.

They utterly slay anything even near their weight class.

Sunders too are great with supporting gravitons with a high intensity laser or tachyon doom ray.

Somebodies gotta play support for energy weapons, and ion cannons just don't cut it!
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: KDR_11k on April 10, 2021, 01:48:00 PM
Maybe they could be changed to do a certain percentage of their damage as hard flux, perhaps more the closer you are.

The HIL is notable for essentially forcing the target to keep its shields up, other beams don't do that so well since you can tank something like a battery of tac lasers on your armor with barely a scratch and gravitons of course don't do much there either. So HIL ensures that the target won't drop its shields for a kinetic damage burst. If other beams had a similar "damage to armor/hull but useless against shields" nature they'd be able to do the same, serve to keep the shields targetable for your kinetic volleys.

I can understand tac lasers being pretty weak, they're small weapons with 1000 range with a low OP cost after all. They're upgraded PD lasers for people who use the PDAI hull mod. Gravitons seem more designed around giving you something with negligible flux drain you can throw into medium slots but they're coming across more as decorative than useful these days, especially with all the defensive bonuses ships have from skills now. The most you can see them doing is when some Hound flies near them for a minute and you can sloooooooooowly see its health go down. Even whole batteries of graviton beams won't make anyone care since you pretty much need multiple ships focusing their gravitons on a single target to make it really notice.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: intrinsic_parity on April 10, 2021, 02:12:57 PM
In my skill thread I suggested making ranged specialization buff beams in some way (like bonus damage or doubled effect), that could be an interesting way to give them a little help.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: RemnantAI on April 14, 2021, 02:10:55 PM
Even 25% hard flux would probably be worth it. I'd even pay a reasonable amount for a hull mod with a percentage that didn't eat at the rain.

50% Range 100% Hard Flux, or 100% Range 0% Hard Flux, are both rough options.
The range restrictions on High Scatter basically shoehorn you into a Safety Overrides build.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: Flare on April 14, 2021, 08:34:55 PM
Wasn't the last tournament won by someone going mass beams? A complete clean sweep winning all 9 fights + the fact that the fleet was fighting modded factions as well.
Title: Re: Beam weapons need a buff
Post by: ChaseBears on April 14, 2021, 08:59:06 PM
just wanna note in case people didn't know but graviton beams are weirdly good against missiles because they will deflect even reapers wildly off course

The points made about how the proliferation of highly efficient shields hurts gravitons disproportionately are good, but I'll note that support builds are *not* about fair fights.  A support ship is all about ganging up on people, so even if you are losing the flux war you can still win the actual war with a pressure weapon.  Combine gravitons with ion beams for extra hilarity.