Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: PansarPung on April 02, 2012, 07:52:55 AM
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A cannon that focus your flux level and shoot it out like a laser but with shorter range and a wider beam. This would do a small ammount of damage but it would also decrease your flux vent rate.
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Cool idea, not sure if it's possible to balance it.
If it does enough damage to be functional then you get to keep shooting when otherwise you could not.
If it does not do enough damage you waste points on weapon(s) that don't do anything.
If it vents flux faster then what are vents even for?
If it vents flux slower it's useless and you might as well vent.
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Could take an obscene amount of OP and even then, render shields unusable for a while afterwards. So that you could have a specialised capship that is designed to draw fire, then smack a single target afterwards but is left very vulnerable afterwards
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That just sounds silly. Don't get me wrong I like the idea, it's just that I don't see a real use for it in any kind of a balanced way.
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Yeah, it would be hella difficult to balance, but I can see potential with the rough idea in a support-role
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Support would imply long distance, you don't really get hit at that range.
This is a weapon purely for the very front line and in capital ship slugging matches.
Unless you take into account raising your own flux. But that's would make it even more over powered.
Hmm, perhaps if it had a reload time of half a minute (or more) and cost more then a tachyon lance, maybe.
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Well... you could just slap a graviton beam on your ship :P
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Instead of having a flux cannon, maybe it would be better to be able to direct flux as you vent it? any ships or fighters that get caught in the flux steam would either gain more flux (and perhaps overload) or the flux stream could act as a very weak EMP? another possible use of the flux stream could be to knock out the guidance systems for missiles.
Edit: another thing, the ability to direct venting could also open up the way for a new hull modification, something like "flux focusing" all this would do is make the flux stream more focused and do more EMP damage.
Food for thought :)
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What is Flux anyway?
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Flux is energy, simply put.
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Flux is energy, simply put.
That's weird, then why do ships with energy weapons have flux build up?
I assumed it was heat build up or something.
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I, too, assumed it was a combination of heat and static buildup.
Also, I'll say what I said about using flux as a weapon/speed boost/missile distraction the last time this was suggested: it's a bad idea.
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Well, flux is excess energy channeld into the flux reserves. There is no other explanation since energy weapons get a damage bonus when the flux is high.
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Excess energy often manifests itself as heat, though. If you shoot a machinegun too much, the barrel gets hot-- that heat is energy.
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Well, in any case, i think that whilst flux is being vented there should at least be some small EMP effect on nearby ships, flux is energy after all.
That and if excess flux is used as a weapon, it should be VERY weak, even if the ship is close to an overload.
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Just to mix things up a bit
Instead of dumping flux into a weapon
How about if you channeled the flux into the engines - sorta like an afterburner ?
(When i am dumping flux i also want to be moving out of the enemys weapon range)
Dunno how you could balance it - possible chance of flameout ?
Just a thought
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Flux cannon or not it would be neat if u could use the flux for something, like disabling missiles or use as engine boost which was mentioned above.
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Flux is not meant to be used, its meant to limit ship functionality. A limit on overall ship combat performance, it limits your shield and your damage output.
In a way, that's how it's used.
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Though having overloads have a chance of doing some further damage to the ship would be an interesting touch
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It would be cool if venting flux did a small amount of damage in a radius or increased the flux of vessels nearby. Not sure what sort of balance issues that would raise, however.
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Flux is not meant to be used, its meant to limit ship functionality. A limit on overall ship combat performance, it limits your shield and your damage output.
In a way, that's how it's used.
yes i am aware of how flux limits your shield and damage output, but in the end you have this massive ammount of flux/energy level that you just waste by venting it out in space
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Flux is not meant to be used, its meant to limit ship functionality. A limit on overall ship combat performance, it limits your shield and your damage output.
In a way, that's how it's used.
yes i am aware of how flux limits your shield and damage output, but in the end you have this massive ammount of flux/energy level that you just waste by venting it out in space
Imagine that it's waste heat instead of "flux energy" then. Kind of hard to convert that into something useful or weaponize it.
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Heat---->Use it to power fuel cells----->Makes energy------> Use it to power weapons (energy)------>
You roflstomp that onslaught
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Heat---->Use it to power fuel cells----->Makes energy------> Use it to power weapons (energy)------>
You roflstomp that onslaught
Let's just assume that if you do that... everyone in your ship will be cooked alive because of the heat (which is probably what will happen=
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Flux cannon or not it would be neat if u could use the flux for something, like disabling missiles or use as engine boost which was mentioned above.
its already used as a bonus damage modifer for energy weapons, which is why you can intentionally buildup flux by holding the F key.
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Flux cannon or not it would be neat if u could use the flux for something, like disabling missiles or use as engine boost which was mentioned above.
its already used as a bonus damage modifer for energy weapons, which is why you can intentionally buildup flux by holding the F key.
^This!
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I agree that having to vent flux is a limiting factor, but to me it seems that there should be some effect for being near a ship that is venting flux, because if flux is heat, that heat should get passed on to anything nearby.
Though thinking about it, if flux is ever used like this it could make attacking larger ships very difficult for frigates, because they might well overload from just being near the ship they are attacking, so again if venting flux ever does have an effect it should be very weak, or at least only have the potential the overload a ship if said ship is already about to overload.
But i think it would be nice if you where able to fly near a large venting ship, and see a little spike in your own flux levels.
But looking at how small an effect this would have on the game, it could probably wait until much later on.
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Flux isn't heat per se. I was just making an analogy.
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Here's a perspective from a realistic point of view:
The second law of thermodynamics dictates that nothing can be 100% efficient be it a gun shooting, or even an engine. You will always get wasted energy (usually in the form of heat) and any attempt at collecting this energy cannot either be 100% efficient and so on. Therefore it would make perfect sense actually having "flux" that cannot really be directly used and must be vented. Great for immersion which I will argue is important in a tactical space combat game like this.
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Yep, but you would think that if you flew through a cloud of heat/energy, that you would pick some of it up.
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Not in space. It'd disperse way way too fast.
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Thats true, but if you look when a ship is venting, there's a cloud of flux.
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Does not mean that it's dense enough to pick up on.
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Does not mean that it's dense enough to pick up on.
Why not? you can see it after all. and if you can see energy/heat in space, i would bet that it's potent stuff, wouldn't have much of an impact on your own ship, but i should think you would notice, even if its just a faint crackling noise.
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We pick up on light from a septillion different stars every millisecond of every day, and that doesn't mean it has an appreciable effect on us other than being able to see it. For all we know, the visible component of flux venting could merely be ship sensors highlighting the effect into visible bands of radiation so we know when the enemy ship has dropped its guard.
I hate, absolutely despise, the turning of this game's only limiting factor other than ammunition into some half baked boon. Flux is there to limit and, in the case of energy weapons, to provide a very small bonus (to counter their terrible base damage). If flux shakes off missiles or provides a speed boost, that just makes hit and run attacks-- and therefore map control and speed-- THAT much better, and heavy hitters are ALREADY having trouble justifying their cost and crew commitment.
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Does not mean that it's dense enough to pick up on.
Why not? you can see it after all. and if you can see energy/heat in space, i would bet that it's potent stuff, wouldn't have much of an impact on your own ship, but i should think you would notice, even if its just a faint crackling noise.
Unless the clouds were really big as in nebulas and/or are held in place by some gravitation field, it's unlikely that the superheated gas would keep coherent for too long in space. The vacuum basically distributes it far too well.
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I agree! all I'm trying to say is that in eyes if you fly through a could of energy i think its only a that a "little" bit should be pick up by the ship flying through it, I'm not saying flux should grant any speed boosts (because there's already a boost effect when flux is empty) or be able to be used as a weapon (because when I thought about that i realised that it's a terrible idea!).
Also, the think you said about stars an that we can see them and yet they have no effect? thats only because they're very far away, whereas a cloud of flux could easily be brushing against the hull of your ship.
But if what we see when a ship is venting flux is merely the ships sensors flagging it up, or is in-fact visible to the naked eye, you will probably need to ask alex.
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Also, the think you said about stars an that we can see them and yet they have no effect? thats only because they're very far away, whereas a cloud of flux could easily be brushing against the hull of your ship.
But if what we see when a ship is venting flux is merely the ships sensors flagging it up, or is in-fact visible to the naked eye, you will probably need to ask alex.
When you 'see' something, that's the light from that source brushing up against your eyes. I'm not saying it's impossible to pick up on flux (though I do believe it's extremely unlikely if Alex didn't decide on any glowing green rock properties for flux), I'm just saying being able to see it with the naked eye is no metric for determining whether it would have an effect on a massive, armored, shielded warship designed specifically to deflect excess heat and radiation.
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Cool idea, not sure if it's possible to balance it.
If it does enough damage to be functional then you get to keep shooting when otherwise you could not.
If it does not do enough damage you waste points on weapon(s) that don't do anything.
If it vents flux faster then what are vents even for?
If it vents flux slower it's useless and you might as well vent.
If I were making it, I would say that it would vent your flux slower (.7 speed) than normal venting, but would have the side effect increasing flux on the enemy ship (it would inflict about 50% of the flux vented should you hit your opponent the entire time.) I would have it inflict 0 damage unless the enemy is overloaded, in which case it would inflict energy damage at ~10% of vented flux.
I would still have it not allow other weapons fire or shields, it wouldn't stop until venting is complete, and would have 400 range, but it would provide a alternative option to conventional venting which could potentially give you a significant advantage.
It wouldn't just be flux vented directionally, but rather a tight dispersal energy dump. I would probably call it a "Flux Lash" or something... ;D
The downsides is that you would be vulnerable for much longer, lose a weapon slot, and need to be very close to use it. For some people though, I think it would be a very viable weapon. If it were really that hard to balance, make it an 'either - or' option. Either you can have a Flux Lash or normal vents, not both.
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I think that is exactly what iscariot is against here, because that is turning one of the few limiting factors of combat in starfarer into an advantage.
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I think that is exactly what iscariot is against here, because that is turning one of the few limiting factors of combat in starfarer into an advantage.
But there's nothing inherently wrong with that, per se. If anything, it would provide an obstacle to fighter and strike frigate spam, and gives you another thing to do with flux other than just manage it and wait for it to vent.
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Whatever boon it would give to preventing fighter and frigate spam, it'd give a bigger boon to HELPING said fighter and frigates. Capital ships and cruisers have the largest flux reserves and are thus the most resistant to flux buildup. This means that they would, in a hypothetical situation that flux does become some kind of half-baked weapon/boost/utility tool, get less out of any flux item. They don't NEED to channel their flux into anything, because their flux reserves are so great. If anything, they need a way to get rid of flux FASTER, so they can use their weapon batteries more, not slower. Frigates and destroyers, on the other hand, mostly come in on attack runs and then back off. Giving them some way to turn their flux into a bonus just increases the amount of time they get to spend pummeling you with something, or increases their ability to get away from you.
It's not a good idea, and I strongly oppose it. Weapons can already get supercharged, isn't that enough?
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Whatever boon it would give to preventing fighter and frigate spam, it'd give a bigger boon to HELPING said fighter and frigates. Capital ships and cruisers have the largest flux reserves and are thus the most resistant to flux buildup. This means that they would, in a hypothetical situation that flux does become some kind of half-baked weapon/boost/utility tool, get less out of any flux item. They don't NEED to channel their flux into anything, because their flux reserves are so great. If anything, they need a way to get rid of flux FASTER, so they can use their weapon batteries more, not slower. Frigates and destroyers, on the other hand, mostly come in on attack runs and then back off. Giving them some way to turn their flux into a bonus just increases the amount of time they get to spend pummeling you with something, or increases their ability to get away from you.
It's not a good idea, and I strongly oppose it. Weapons can already get supercharged, isn't that enough?
Some of the coolest game features are the ones that allow you to turn a limitation into a bonus if done correctly. For instance, reloading. Gears of War had a small little minigame that could boost your reload speed and give you bonus damage, or, if you screwed it up, you'd take longer to reload.
Just a cool little feature that allows skilled or practiced players to turn a limitation into a bonus.
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None of that excuses tipping game balance even more in the direction its been canted since 0.35a.
And there's no skill in mounting a frigging weapon and using it. There IS skill in dancing around your flux overload limit with weapons fire and avoiding overload but still staying supercharged.
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None of that excuses tipping game balance even more in the direction its been canted since 0.35a.
And there's no skill in mounting a frigging weapon and using it. There IS skill in dancing around your flux overload limit with weapons fire and avoiding overload but still staying supercharged.
What if your ship has no energy weapons to benefit from supercharging? And, if it's a short-range AOE damager, you bet it would take some skill and audacity to use it in close range against targets when your shields are down and you can't shoot.
Just a thought.
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I'm also not sure I buy how a damaging vent would help small ships (with lower ability to generate and store flux, as well as a smaller area covered while venting) versus capitals who, if they need to vent, generally have to dispose of a huge amount of flux and cover a relatively large area.
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Why SHOULD a ship without energy weapons benefit from high flux? It benefits by having the most flux efficient weapons in the game-- ballistics.
I wasn't speaking specifically about 'damaging vents', though I think that concept is asinine. I was talking specifically about 'flux cannons' or 'flux speed boosts' or 'flux missile buggering' there.
If you're talking about actually damaging enemy ships by venting flux, then I ask that the game also allow us to torch enemy ships to death with our thruster impulses, because of the Kzinti lesson. Because that would be far, far, more efficient.
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If I were making it, I would say that it would vent your flux slower (.7 speed) than normal venting, but would have the side effect increasing flux on the enemy ship (it would inflict about 50% of the flux vented should you hit your opponent the entire time.) I would have it inflict 0 damage unless the enemy is overloaded, in which case it would inflict energy damage at ~10% of vented flux.
I would still have it not allow other weapons fire or shields, it wouldn't stop until venting is complete, and would have 400 range, but it would provide a alternative option to conventional venting which could potentially give you a significant advantage.
It wouldn't just be flux vented directionally, but rather a tight dispersal energy dump. I would probably call it a "Flux Lash" or something... ;D
The downsides is that you would be vulnerable for much longer, lose a weapon slot, and need to be very close to use it. For some people though, I think it would be a very viable weapon. If it were really that hard to balance, make it an 'either - or' option. Either you can have a Flux Lash or normal vents, not both.
Now your just hopelessly complicating things, this would change the entire way the combat would work and mess up all AI in the game. This is jut getting dumb. I can see the effects already, all ships hopelessly trying to vent their flux only to pass it on to others at a 50% rate, meaning everyone will just get more flux coming in then they can dump, especially at a range of 400 witch is the range of some weapons in the game (how would that even work?)
Just no, bad idea.
Some of the coolest game features are the ones that allow you to turn a limitation into a bonus if done correctly. For instance, reloading. Gears of War had a small little minigame that could boost your reload speed and give you bonus damage, or, if you screwed it up, you'd take longer to reload.
Just a cool little feature that allows skilled or practiced players to turn a limitation into a bonus.
Just another example of hopelessly trying to complicate games, why put in a useless game feature that will only get into the way of the actual gameplay. (which is running around and shooting stuff) It gives a boost only to veterans who know how the game works and penalizes people that don't. It is just so stupid.
But please don't turn this into a GoW topic, I'm sorry for even mentioning it.
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Flux is Space Magic, The end.
:D
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Flux is Space Magic, The end.
:D
Case Closed!
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Complacency.
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Now your just hopelessly complicating things, this would change the entire way the combat would work and mess up all AI in the game. This is jut getting dumb. I can see the effects already, all ships hopelessly trying to vent their flux only to pass it on to others at a 50% rate, meaning everyone will just get more flux coming in then they can dump, especially at a range of 400 witch is the range of some weapons in the game (how would that even work?)
Just no, bad idea.
The way you describe it makes it seem like the AI be forced to utilize and prioritize this weapon over all other considerations, which is silly, and even if it were true could be easily fixed with proper balancing. I just suggested some possible values off the top of my head; obviously they need to be adjusted, but it doesn't mean that the idea itself is game-breaking.
Using this weapon, were it implemented, would have some serious drawbacks offsetting the advantages.
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That's not what I'm saying at all, that's what the consequences will be if this was implemented without the right AI to handle it, it would break the game.
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Since flux is the build up of waste energy (when weapons are firing) or the energy from impacts to the shields. Why not have it just when you vent flux, it destroys missiles? Would add a new tactic, am i about to be missile swarmed, and venting my 2/3rds flux would save me? Poof. Seems like it would kinda make sense, i keep thinking of flux as some sort of electromagnetic-plasma that when vented from its containers turns it into a high energy vapor, which to me might set off the explosives inside the warheads of most missiles.
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Since flux is the build up of waste energy (when weapons are firing) or the energy from impacts to the shields. Why not have it just when you vent flux, it destroys missiles? Would add a new tactic, am i about to be missile swarmed, and venting my 2/3rds flux would save me? Poof. Seems like it would kinda make sense, i keep thinking of flux as some sort of electromagnetic-plasma that when vented from its containers turns it into a high energy vapor, which to me might set off the explosives inside the warheads of most missiles.
Sounds like a resonable idea, and i actully like it ;)
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Not to sure about that, because it would make using missiles very hard indeed, unless you can overload them first.
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Would it not make more sense to create missiles who specifically target flux venting ships because it's in a time of weakness?
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I tend to only find missiles truly effective when ships are either venting, overloaded or I fire a crapton of missiles at them anyway. Having them be destroyed by venting would make them even less usable than they currently are already
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Would it not make more sense to create missiles who specifically target flux venting ships because it's in a time of weakness?
Not sure what your trying to get at, mostly from me reading what you've said wrong, like i normally do.
I mean that could actually work, if the flux-destroy-missiles thing never happened, It would make sense for a military force of any kind to have missiles set to hit targets that are helpless.
@Hyph_k31, which is what you normally do isnt it? Normally it calls for overloading them, then firing your missiles, this way even if they where venting, you fire enough missiles, some would be at the right range to hit them just as the vent ends, and before their shields come back up. This adds a small layer of defense and tactic.
@K-64, There could also be flux-resistant missiles who, although travel slower once in a flux field, can pass through it without being destroyed. Depending how intense the flux-field is. if in the flux-field just as it starts where the highest 'power' output of it would be, some would be destroyed, but most would get through and hit (say a 1 in 6 chance for a missile to be destroyed within .5-1.5sec of venting start? and it goes down from there rapidly).
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Since flux is the build up of waste energy (when weapons are firing) or the energy from impacts to the shields. Why not have it just when you vent flux, it destroys missiles? Would add a new tactic, am i about to be missile swarmed, and venting my 2/3rds flux would save me? Poof. Seems like it would kinda make sense, i keep thinking of flux as some sort of electromagnetic-plasma that when vented from its containers turns it into a high energy vapor, which to me might set off the explosives inside the warheads of most missiles.
This idea is super awful.
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@K-64, There could also be flux-resistant missiles who, although travel slower once in a flux field, can pass through it without being destroyed. Depending how intense the flux-field is. if in the flux-field just as it starts where the highest 'power' output of it would be, some would be destroyed, but most would get through and hit (say a 1 in 6 chance for a missile to be destroyed within .5-1.5sec of venting start? and it goes down from there rapidly).
That still wouldn't address the issue of normal missiles being utterly useless. If anything, all weapons should do more damage to venting ships as they probably have to open up some hatches or something to get all that heat out. Though as it is, I think flux and venting is fine
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We pick up on light from a septillion different stars every millisecond of every day, and that doesn't mean it has an appreciable effect on us other than being able to see it. For all we know, the visible component of flux venting could merely be ship sensors highlighting the effect into visible bands of radiation so we know when the enemy ship has dropped its guard.
I hate, absolutely despise, the turning of this game's only limiting factor other than ammunition into some half baked boon. Flux is there to limit and, in the case of energy weapons, to provide a very small bonus (to counter their terrible base damage). If flux shakes off missiles or provides a speed boost, that just makes hit and run attacks-- and therefore map control and speed-- THAT much better, and heavy hitters are ALREADY having trouble justifying their cost and crew commitment.
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Since flux is the build up of waste energy (when weapons are firing) or the energy from impacts to the shields. Why not have it just when you vent flux, it destroys missiles? Would add a new tactic, am i about to be missile swarmed, and venting my 2/3rds flux would save me? Poof. Seems like it would kinda make sense, i keep thinking of flux as some sort of electromagnetic-plasma that when vented from its containers turns it into a high energy vapor, which to me might set off the explosives inside the warheads of most missiles.
This idea is super awful.
Because it needed to be said again. I always thought that venting your flux was like space age reloading, and you should be extremely vulnerable to all incoming fire while you are reloading or venting.
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Since flux is the build up of waste energy (when weapons are firing) or the energy from impacts to the shields. Why not have it just when you vent flux, it destroys missiles? Would add a new tactic, am i about to be missile swarmed, and venting my 2/3rds flux would save me? Poof. Seems like it would kinda make sense, i keep thinking of flux as some sort of electromagnetic-plasma that when vented from its containers turns it into a high energy vapor, which to me might set off the explosives inside the warheads of most missiles.
This idea is super awful.
Because it needed to be said again. I always thought that venting your flux was like space age reloading, and you should be extremely vulnerable to all incoming fire while you are reloading or venting.
So going back to my original saying Flux is Space Magic, deal with it 8)
Everyone is happy!
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You don't get it. It's not just a matter of making sense or not making sense, you're actively ruining the mechanics and flow of the game by eliminating vulnerability during venting.