Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Gothars on October 28, 2020, 08:48:47 AM

Title: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Gothars on October 28, 2020, 08:48:47 AM
I feel kind of bad asking for a graphics update when there's so much content being worked on - it's just that the venting effect really stands out to me. It seems like a very low res texture. Granted, it's less obvious when animated. But especially during venting it's often a good idea to pause the game to survey the tactical situation, and then this effect appears less than optimal. So, yeah, an update to bring it to the graphical standard of the rest of the game would be appreciated. Maybe as a graphic options toggle to not tax older systems unnecessarily.

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/HJeitOP.jpg)
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I also found this really old quote, which I find amusing:)  (Or have shields ever looked different from what they look like now? I don't remember them ever being changed...)

It would be nice to have some feedback, like if a kinetic weapon hits the shield, display some kind of shield dispersion effect, just a small one...so you know that something realy bad for your shields hit it.

Funny thing - we already have some shield animation graphics for just this purpose. Just haven't had time to add those in :) Btw, the "shield hit" sound is different for kinetic damage vs everything else, though it's easy to miss in the heat of battle.
Shields have been on my list of "graphics to improve" for a while now. I wouldn't say they're *bad*, but we've got some ideas.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Schwartz on October 28, 2020, 09:01:13 AM
Yeah, I have to agree that venting looks off. On smaller ships it's sort-of alright, but on bigger ones as the screenshot shows.. I wouldn't think this was supposed to be a heat venting effect. Looks more like a magical levelup aura or whatever. ;)

Ideally, I think dense white steam coming at high pressure out of a few valves on a ship (not a whole 360° aura) would look good. Make the steam slightly more yellowish or orange or other colors if the flux level of the ship was higher at the point of venting.

This would require that each ship model be given a handful of points where exhaust could come out. Or, and this would be the easy mode and less visually interesting solution, have the exhaust come out of the engines as these points are already defined.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Gothars on October 28, 2020, 09:24:18 AM
It would make sense to have so kind of steam (I actually like the purple color) come out of the weapon mounts, where most flux is generated. To have it come out of the engine might be misleading, because they are the only thing that still works normally during venting.

A disadvantage of having it come out of certain points is that it's less easy to read at a glance if you are not familiar with the ship at hand. A compromise might be to have a ring of flux-steam come of the entire ship only for the first second, and then continue the venting through openings.

But honestly, I would be happy with the effect staying more or less like it is, just with sprites that are higher resolution and have smoother transitions between them. At the moment you can clearly count the 12 individual sprites.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Schwartz on October 28, 2020, 09:26:34 AM
Yeah, that's an idea. Have every weapon turret and hardpoint vent steam at -30° and +30° relative to the current point of aim. Something like that. Would probably end up being very visually busy, though. Or have each gun vent in succession.

It actually looking like high pressure steam would be a big step, no matter where it comes out of.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Gothars on October 28, 2020, 09:39:10 AM
I'd suggest just having it vent away from the center of the ship. Might still be too busy though, right.

 Then there are ships with have no or very few weapon mounts. On those it might be impossible to hard to tell if they are venting, if only the mounts do so. Maybe the initial all-hull steam ring could go on at a low level for the entire vent procedure, to help those ships vent more visible. As a side effect weapon laden combat ships would vent far more impressively than civilian ships, which is a nice detail.


It could be even more fancy and correlate the size of the weapon mount vent plumes with flux dissipation rate during venting.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Gwyvern on October 28, 2020, 03:48:01 PM
Using those new cloud effects Alex was working on might be fun here, puffing out a big cloud of 'flux' like those big steam engines used to do, even if it doesn't make sense.

Don't really know what sort of performance impact that might have but yeah, the current flux effects are ugly.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Avanitia on October 28, 2020, 04:23:13 PM
I do agree - having higher resolution texture for venting effect would be nice.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Alex on October 28, 2020, 07:02:19 PM
... I may have something to share tomorrow :)
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Gothars on October 28, 2020, 07:10:26 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Alex on October 29, 2020, 10:48:43 AM
Here we go!

https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1321869905180925952

And here's a screenshot (the twitter link has an animated gif):

(https://i.imgur.com/dp7Hl3u.png)

Click image to see it fullsize.

(Edit: oh, regarding shields: I'd messed with them some here and there, but there was never anything promising.)
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Gothars on October 29, 2020, 11:07:07 AM
That looks great and you are great ;D Thanks for listening!
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Alex on October 29, 2020, 11:13:42 AM
Thank you for bringing this up! I've never liked how it looked in stills (for obvious reasons) but the hideous shot you posted in the OP was just impossible to ignore :)
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Megas on October 29, 2020, 11:38:24 AM
The old, current one looks like a purple flower.  The new one is... Purple Haze.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Dri on October 29, 2020, 11:45:16 AM
Purple rain, purple rain...

I dunno, I feel there should be at least some other color than pure purple to give it some slight contrast.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Schwartz on October 29, 2020, 12:21:38 PM
Looks better and more gaseous for sure.
I don't know what twitter is on about there, about it having to stand out even more than it already does? We're paying attention to little red pixels for torpedos and the color of incoming ballistic shots. Even half of the new effect would be a big fat sign that says "I'm venting".
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Alex on October 29, 2020, 12:28:26 PM
Yeah, I don't think whether it stands out or not is an issue - but whether it feels like a "strong enough" effect seems like a reasonable question.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Dri on October 29, 2020, 01:02:13 PM
What about shield visual updates? Alex's work must never be done.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Avanitia on October 29, 2020, 01:42:57 PM
Here we go!

New effect is great :)
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Retry on October 29, 2020, 01:52:32 PM
What about shield visual updates? Alex's work must never be done.
(Edit: oh, regarding shields: I'd messed with them some here and there, but there was never anything promising.)
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Alex on October 29, 2020, 02:24:52 PM
Adjusted the venting effect a bit. Main thing is making it contour the ship; the original effect was done before "being able to figure that out easily" was a thing in the code. So, now it should look nicer with longer/thinner ships. Also tweaked the colors a bit...

https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1321925526584516610
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Goumindong on October 29, 2020, 02:26:48 PM
Here we go!

https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1321869905180925952

And here's a screenshot (the twitter link has an animated gif):

(https://i.imgur.com/dp7Hl3u.png)

Click image to see it fullsize.

(Edit: oh, regarding shields: I'd messed with them some here and there, but there was never anything promising.)

one thing i noticed is that the effect is not tied to the ship orientation and if the ship turns does not look like its following the ship. As a result, if the ship is changing its orientation it looks like there is some sort of modifier on the ship rather than its dumping something into space.

edit: The contoured version looks a lot better.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Grievous69 on October 29, 2020, 02:27:41 PM
Adjusted the venting effect a bit. Main thing is making it contour the ship; the original effect was done before "being able to figure that out easily" was a thing in the code. So, now it should look nicer with longer/thinner ships. Also tweaked the colors a bit...

https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1321925526584516610
Damn, that looks menacing.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Alex on October 29, 2020, 02:31:52 PM
one thing i noticed is that the effect is not tied to the ship orientation and if the ship turns does not look like its following the ship.

Ah - it's particle-based, so when a ship turns or slows or w/e, the particles that are already out there don't get affected. It *could* also be done so that the particles are tied to ship orientation - in fact a slightly earlier version did that - but to me that made it look too... not "pasted on" but something like that. It felt less real and more like an "oh, here's an effect tied to the ship position".
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Gothars on October 29, 2020, 02:43:50 PM
Adjusted the venting effect a bit.

Very nice!

[/quote]

one thing i noticed is that the effect is not tied to the ship orientation and if the ship turns does not look like its following the ship. As a result, if the ship is changing its orientation it looks like there is some sort of modifier on the ship rather than its dumping something into space.

For me it's not the lack of turn following, but that ship forward movement has no effect on it. If a moving and venting ship would leave a little bit of a flux trail (like engines do) that would sell it perfectly.


Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Goumindong on October 29, 2020, 02:47:19 PM
one thing i noticed is that the effect is not tied to the ship orientation and if the ship turns does not look like its following the ship.

Ah - it's particle-based, so when a ship turns or slows or w/e, the particles that are already out there don't get affected. It *could* also be done so that the particles are tied to ship orientation - in fact a slightly earlier version did that - but to me that made it look too... not "pasted on" but something like that. It felt less real and more like an "oh, here's an effect tied to the ship position".
Yea when i first looked at it though it didn't look like it was particle based but rather stuck on. Imagine a hose. If you're spraying the hose and turn it you don't make the water from the original spray follow the nozzle but you do make a nice curve in the water as the later water now has a new direction. As you add hoses and spin them you make spirals when viewed from the top. This happens even if add enough hoses such that there is no surface without a hose.

It doesn't look like that effect is happening when the ship turns. Rather it looks like the ship is occluding something that is statically happening below it.

@gothars. But not in the vacuum of space. There is no air resistance to slow the particles down and make that trail. That would only happen if you were accelerating in a particular direction.

edit: The new version significantly reduces the feeling of this effect. Though that may be because the oddy isn't turning all that fast. How does it look when a ship is accelerating or turning fast?
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Gothars on October 29, 2020, 03:03:32 PM
@gothars. But not in the vacuum of space. There is no air resistance to slow the particles down and make that trail. That would only happen if you were accelerating in a particular direction.

Mh? Particles don't have to slow down to form a trail, there just have to be fewer of them were you are going than were you are coming from. Of course the trail would dissipate quickly and not hang around like in atmosphere.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Goumindong on October 29, 2020, 03:10:03 PM
@gothars. But not in the vacuum of space. There is no air resistance to slow the particles down and make that trail. That would only happen if you were accelerating in a particular direction.

Mh? Particles don't have to slow down to form a trail, there just have to be fewer of them were you are going than were you are coming from. Of course the trail would dissipate quickly and not hang around like in atmosphere.

They do. If you're moving at speed x and a particle is ejected from your ship at speed y relative to your ship it will maintain speed x+y unless it hits something out there like an atmosphere.

So if your ship is moving but not accelerating then there will be exactly the same where you're going as where you're coming from. It will look exactly the same as if you're moving at a constant speed than if you're moving at zero speed.



Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: MesoTroniK on October 29, 2020, 03:38:33 PM
The new vent animation literally looks 100x better! But... I think there is one more thing that could be done to really make the most of it :)

Make the start of the vent sequence more energetic, like a pressured release followed by the steady flow. So right at the onset have a denser wave of particles (that also maybe moves a bit faster).
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: intrinsic_parity on October 29, 2020, 03:45:44 PM
I think I worked out what looks weird when the ship is rotating. The venting gas is being released from the edge of the ship, so when the ship is rotating, the gas should have some extra velocity due to the fact that the point it's being released from is moving relative to the center of mass of the ship. It looks like the gas just inherits the velocity of the center of mass of the ship. I could be wrong about how the gas velocity is being calculated, and it also could be a lot of trouble to adjust that. 
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on October 29, 2020, 04:13:18 PM
The new vent animation literally looks 100x better! But... I think there is one more thing that could be done to really make the most of it :)

Make the start of the vent sequence more energetic, like a pressured release followed by the steady flow. So right at the onset have a denser wave of particles (that also maybe moves a bit faster).
Completely agree here. Something that sells the "violent, dam breaking nature" of the vent, especially at high flux, would help make it even better
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Goumindong on October 29, 2020, 04:21:05 PM
The new vent animation literally looks 100x better! But... I think there is one more thing that could be done to really make the most of it :)

Make the start of the vent sequence more energetic, like a pressured release followed by the steady flow. So right at the onset have a denser wave of particles (that also maybe moves a bit faster).
Completely agree here. Something that sells the "violent, dam breaking nature" of the vent, especially at high flux, would help make it even better

It’s more thick at high flux and tapers off as flux is removed.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: FooF on October 29, 2020, 06:47:37 PM
That looks really good! It's amazing how a small change like that can add so much. The idea of a "pressure wave" that's just a millisecond long and travels out at a much higher velocity, followed by the existing animation would be kind of cool but it I wouldn't shed any tears if it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Harmful Mechanic on October 29, 2020, 07:02:41 PM
If you want a more energetic start, consider having the first particle white and fade to the standard purple over 5-10 frames.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Alex on October 29, 2020, 07:20:25 PM
For me it's not the lack of turn following, but that ship forward movement has no effect on it. If a moving and venting ship would leave a little bit of a flux trail (like engines do) that would sell it perfectly.

Ah, I've tried something along those lines; maybe it's possible but the things I tried didn't click.


Make the start of the vent sequence more energetic, like a pressured release followed by the steady flow. So right at the onset have a denser wave of particles (that also maybe moves a bit faster).
Completely agree here. Something that sells the "violent, dam breaking nature" of the vent, especially at high flux, would help make it even better
If you want a more energetic start, consider having the first particle white and fade to the standard purple over 5-10 frames.

It's actually quite tricky to make something like this feel like a pressure release. Basically, if it's not an explosion - i.e. it starts with a set of already-faded-in particles - then it has to fade in more gradually, and that makes it tough to make the start feel very forceful. And the sound effect for the vent I think actually makes it make more sense as a gradual-but-quick buildup, not a "pressure/dam-breaking" sort of thing.

That looks really good! It's amazing how a small change like that can add so much. The idea of a "pressure wave" that's just a millisecond long and travels out at a much higher velocity, followed by the existing animation would be kind of cool but it I wouldn't shed any tears if it didn't happen.

Yeah, something like that *could* work, but - having recently made an effect of that nature for something campaign-related - it's tough to make the visual look good. Plus, again, the sound effect wouldn't match; I'm going for "just" replacing the visuals, not doing a lot of collateral damage that requires additional work :)

It’s more thick at high flux and tapers off as flux is removed.

Yep!


I think I worked out what looks weird when the ship is rotating. The venting gas is being released from the edge of the ship, so when the ship is rotating, the gas should have some extra velocity due to the fact that the point it's being released from is moving relative to the center of mass of the ship. It looks like the gas just inherits the velocity of the center of mass of the ship. I could be wrong about how the gas velocity is being calculated, and it also could be a lot of trouble to adjust that.

Ahh, that's a very good point! (Of note, semi-related: factoring in angular velocity/angular momentum etc was key to making the collision system feel good.)

Gave this a try, and I think there's something good here; will post more tomorrow. It only really matters for small/fast turning ships - you can barely see it on a Medusa, for example, though you *do* see the venting gases reacting to the movement - which I think is what really matters, even if you can't always pick out the exact nature of the reaction. On capitals, it doesn't matter either way, since they don't generally turn fast enough.
Title: Re: Better venting effect graphics
Post by: Alex on October 30, 2020, 12:12:57 PM
With the angular velocity changes:
https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1322254788722085890

Only matters for frigates, really - can still see it a bit on the Medusa, but ships that turn any slower than that, it really doesn't show much. Which seems fine since those ships also don't have the problem of the effect not reacting to their movements, since they can't move fast enough for it to *be* a problem.