Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Blog Posts => Topic started by: Alex on August 13, 2020, 02:16:19 PM

Title: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 13, 2020, 02:16:19 PM
Blog post here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2020/08/13/personal-contacts/).
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Tartiflette on August 13, 2020, 02:22:32 PM
Time to crash the new server through intense reading
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: arcibalde on August 13, 2020, 02:24:01 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Attroc on August 13, 2020, 02:26:24 PM
Very very cool!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Tartiflette on August 13, 2020, 02:35:56 PM
Welp, that indeed answered my concerns from yesterday. I will wait for this update because half of the quest related framework that I could implement in a mod would be replaced by those new systems.

[edit] One question though: What about chain missions? Is there anything here that by default would make a mission available only after completing a previous one? That would be the last building block missing to start some serious quest writing.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on August 13, 2020, 02:36:56 PM
Just as the Hype Train was starting to slow down, Alex tosses another carload of fuel into the fires!
ALL ABOARD!!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 13, 2020, 02:44:36 PM
[edit] One question though: What about chain missions? Is there anything here that by default would make a mission available only after completing a previous one? That would be the last building block missing to start some serious quest writing.

You could set a global memory flag once a mission is completed, and then for a mission that requires the previous mission, in its create() method, check whether that flag is set, and if not, bail out. It'd be a one-liner, or close to it, in each of the missions to connect them up like that.

(There *might* also end up being a more official way of doing it as we go through the story missions and see how that sort of structure is easiest to implement.)

Time to crash the new server through intense reading

Not going to lie, I was worried for a second when the slowdown hit. "Is this some kind of problem with the new server? Should I send them a support email?" But, it pulled through :)


Just as the Hype Train was starting to slow down, Alex tosses another carload of fuel into the fires!
ALL ABOARD!!

:D
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Nicke535 on August 13, 2020, 02:56:48 PM
Very nice, definitely looking forward to this. Main complaint is that I might just procrastinate for the new patch instead of actually working on implementing the Vass questlines now that a system so close to what I needed will be in vanilla (heck, the current quest already has a basic system to pull of effectively what you've done here, but worse)!

Am I correct in assuming that since contacts show up in the intel screen, their display in said screen shouldn't be set in stone? For example, making the icon/name change dynamically (for an obvious example, someone who hides their identity until more trust is earned) or showing a "fake" importance that doesn't confirm to the 1-5 scale? Just making sure since having those displays completely set in stone on the coding side would make the system quite rigid and hard to use for mods.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SCC on August 13, 2020, 02:59:31 PM
Are contacts forcing you to choose one of the factions in the long term, or are there other mechanisms for that, or nothing at all? Currently you can amass quite some wealth without crossing any factions, at least until you plant a flag on some rock that flies faster than it falls. Speaking of that — wouldn't it make sense if hits on faction fleets were ordered by other factions, too? They have both more reasons and more money to make it happen.
Is there any cost to making new contracts? Credits, special items, relationship?
Will multi tag contacts offer special missions?

Also, I don't think I got that — does this system entirely replace other intel missions/bounties/etc. stuff, or is it meant to cover everything that isn't run of the mill basic stuff? System that entirely relies on contacts might not be easily noticed by newcomers.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Megas on August 13, 2020, 03:17:13 PM
Do you get contacts at your own colonies?  Say, my first colony developed into a nice size 6+ world that is as big as a major faction's capital world.  Player can get bar missions from his own worlds.

I wonder if contacts will be a gate to special missions with unique rewards like the Red Planet quest.  Basically, a reason to spare them from the eventual total core kill after I lose patience with babysitting and other annoyances.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Thaago on August 13, 2020, 03:25:39 PM
This looks great! I wonder, are there any mechanics for contacts reaching out to contact the player if they've done something exceptional? I'm thinking if they are below their 5 contact limit and complete a "hard" general bounty there is some chance of this attracting the attention of a contact. Similarly for smuggling to someplace with demand, or trading in survey data.

If I have one wish on the modding side of things, its that those very convenient looking functions be in the autogenerated API somewhere, so modders have a complete list of them. Short descriptions of what they do would also be great, though I know that can turn into a lot of work.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Megas on August 13, 2020, 03:34:51 PM
Quote
Fortunately, we can leverage story points (talked about at length here) as a soft limiting mechanism. The rules are simple:

Up to 5 concurrent contacts are “free”; deleting a contact is also free
Contacts beyond 5 require a story point to develop
If the colony the contact lived in was destroyed or decivilized, is the contact dead and removed automatically, or does he become a waste of a slot until you dismiss him yourself?
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 13, 2020, 04:30:06 PM
Am I correct in assuming that since contacts show up in the intel screen, their display in said screen shouldn't be set in stone? For example, making the icon/name change dynamically (for an obvious example, someone who hides their identity until more trust is earned) or showing a "fake" importance that doesn't confirm to the 1-5 scale? Just making sure since having those displays completely set in stone on the coding side would make the system quite rigid and hard to use for mods.

You could probably do whatever you want with a custom intel item. The default one will reflect changes in the PersonAPI backing it, though, so that sounds like it might be good enough for your purposes. Importance is locked to the 1-5 scale, though; with how many things are keyed off that, it wouldn't make sense not to.

Are contacts forcing you to choose one of the factions in the long term, or are there other mechanisms for that, or nothing at all? Currently you can amass quite some wealth without crossing any factions, at least until you plant a flag on some rock that flies faster than it falls.

It doesn't lock you to a faction, though it does make it easier to gain faction rep since completing missions for a contact will also increase your rep with the faction.

Speaking of that — wouldn't it make sense if hits on faction fleets were ordered by other factions, too? They have both more reasons and more money to make it happen.

Military contacts will in fact offer some missions that are military in nature :)

Is there any cost to making new contracts? Credits, special items, relationship?

Completing a mission for them (from the bar), generally. It's not hard but it's not supposed to be.

Will multi tag contacts offer special missions?

Not right now. It's easily possible - in fact there's explicit support for it via the mission spreadsheet. But multi-tag contacts aren't really much of a thing in vanilla; IIRC there's only one very low-importance one right now, mostly for flavor.

Also, I don't think I got that — does this system entirely replace other intel missions/bounties/etc. stuff, or is it meant to cover everything that isn't run of the mill basic stuff? System that entirely relies on contacts might not be easily noticed by newcomers.

It doesn't, though I might remove the basic Procurement mission, since it gets pretty much duplicated by the contact stuff. But Analyze/Survey missions and bounties are I think in a good place - the surface-level stuff anyone has access too, and then you can dig into contacts as well.


Do you get contacts at your own colonies?  Say, my first colony developed into a nice size 6+ world that is as big as a major faction's capital world.  Player can get bar missions from his own worlds.

You might get underworld contacts there, but not player-faction contacts. Those would be too weird - the default interaction writing doesn't work, etc.


This looks great! I wonder, are there any mechanics for contacts reaching out to contact the player if they've done something exceptional? I'm thinking if they are below their 5 contact limit and complete a "hard" general bounty there is some chance of this attracting the attention of a contact. Similarly for smuggling to someplace with demand, or trading in survey data.

There aren't - right now, it's entirely bar-based. I've been half-thinking about whether other stuff - such as, say, handing in Alpha Cores - could/should result in contacts, as well. I think "how the player gets contacts, especially high importance ones" could be an interesting area to expand. But it's not something that's really gotten much attention at this point; the focus has just been on adding missions etc. There's a lot of them!

If I have one wish on the modding side of things, its that those very convenient looking functions be in the autogenerated API somewhere, so modders have a complete list of them. Short descriptions of what they do would also be great, though I know that can turn into a lot of work.

They'll be in the API javadoc, yeah, since they're all implemented in base mission classes. Comments/descriptions, though... not very likely, no. Most of the methods have names that pretty much describe what they do anyway. Something tricky, though, I could see adding a comment here and there for.

If the colony the contact lived in was destroyed or decivilized, is the contact dead and removed automatically, or does he become a waste of a slot until you dismiss him yourself?

Neither. They lose one level of importance and move to another faction colony. If importance is already very low or there's no colony to move to, then they go away.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: BringerofBabies on August 13, 2020, 06:02:57 PM
Do you get contacts at your own colonies?  Say, my first colony developed into a nice size 6+ world that is as big as a major faction's capital world.  Player can get bar missions from his own worlds.

You might get underworld contacts there, but not player-faction contacts. Those would be too weird - the default interaction writing doesn't work, etc.

It could be interesting if sometimes you could find other faction contacts on your worlds - a Tri-Tachyon trader who stays on your world to manage trade routes, or a Hegemony diplomat/military attaché, for example. Holding out for such a contact would be inefficient for a player who wants to improve their standing with a specific faction, but a lucky player could take advantage of those contacts to streamline their core world visits. Those contacts could also have a lower maximum importance, too - after all, if they were really that important why have they been sent to someone else's planet instead of staying at their organization's HQ?
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Wispborne on August 13, 2020, 06:06:06 PM
This is awesome! Pumped to see creating quests become more accessible.

It was fun/gratifying to see the specific shift from an imperative to a declarative system for the quests; I wrote my own wrapper to make quests declarative already, although yours is, of course, far more accessible and comprehensive.

https://github.com/davidwhitman/Gates-Awakened/blob/master/src/main/kotlin/org/wisp/gatesawakened/midgame/MidgameQuestBeginning.kt

Code
class MidgameQuestBeginning : BarEventDefinition<MidgameQuestBeginning>(
    shouldShowEvent = { Midgame.shouldOfferQuest(it) },
    interactionPrompt = {
        addPara {
            "You spot a familiar tattoo; a grey circle around the eye of a $manOrWoman" +
                    " in the corner of the bar, glowing a faint white. " +
                    "You realize that it looks a bit like a ${mark("Gate")}."
        }
    },
    textToStartInteraction = {
        "Move in for a closer look at the tattooed $manOrWoman's tripad screen."
    },
    onInteractionStarted = {
        planetWithCache = Midgame.planetWithCache!! // Must exist for quest to be offered
    }
.......

Note: Below, I critique some example code from the blog post without full context of the rest of the API. What's more, this is *your* codebase and your project - please feel free to ignore my critique; I have my own baby codebase, I understand and won't be offended.

I do have a question; how much will the order in which you call methods in this new, declarative API matter?

That is, I presume that you must first call beginTrigger(...), then define triggers, and then endTrigger(). Is that the case, and if so, why not add a class to define a trigger so that the order that quest bits are declared doesn't matter (like a Builder pattern)?
eg
Code
beginWithTrigger(
  new HyperspaceRangeTrigger(planet, 1f, false, Stage.GO_TO_RUINS, new TriggerConditions() {
    triggerCreateFleet(FleetSize.MEDIUM, FleetQuality.DEFAULT, Factions.PIRATES);
    triggerSetStandardAggroPirateFlags();
    triggerFleetAllowLongPursuit();
    triggerPickLocationAtInSystemJumpPoint(planet.getStarSystem());
    triggerSpawnFleetAtPickedLocation(“$gada_pirate”, null);
    triggerOrderFleetPatrol(planet);
  }
);
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: FooF on August 13, 2020, 06:14:14 PM
Very good!

Reminds me of contacts in City of Heroes: you run low-level missions for them in an arc and as you progress through that arc, your relationship with them strengthens. Something to steal from that system if you feel so inclined: after you reach a certain trust status with the contact, you can "call" them without physically being in front of them. So in this system, perhaps after level 4(?), you get access to a direct (encrypted!) line with the contact so that you can communicate directly. Perhaps you still have to be near a Comm Relay but you get the idea.

Perhaps you can't say too much yet but will the rewards of these missions be non-standard? Credits, ships, and weapons are fine at first but by end game you're swimming in them. I presume blueprints, AI cores, Nanoforges, etc. will also be offered eventually, as well. But what about useful Intel like a completely surveyed system (with a high-value planet) or the locations of rare derelicts (like the Legion XIV)? I can think of other things more exotic but toward mid-game, I know that rewards that save me time or reduce the tedium factor are precious.

Finally, and I don't know how much espionage you're planning, I think it would be really cool if one contact put a hit out on another existing contact of yours (I could imagine Underworld contacts doing this!) Maybe the (lucrative) reward is worth it, maybe it isn't...but it adds a level of choice.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Eji1700 on August 13, 2020, 06:45:41 PM
I haven't slept most of this week so this all just kinda popped into my head while i was giggling reading the update.  Feel free to just take it for the lunacy that it is and skip it.
Spoiler
With the closing of the comlink the contract is signed.  The order for fuel needs to go through.  A brief stop at an abandoned terraforming platform and a month later the pilot arrives at a tiny colony at the edge of the cluster.  A backwater to backwaters this worthless speck of dust, rock, and cold has barely even been able to provide fuel for itself let alone the order requested, but that cannot do.

Mass industry begins to mobilize as credits pour in to attract enough bodies to handle the demand.  No longer a hidden wasteland to fade from the eye of civilization, every suitable inch is to be converted into anti matter producing factories.  The logistic railways of the future are laid across the stars and access to the barely born colony begins to flow while the factories begin to grow.  What once could have easily passed for yet another uninhabited hellscape has become a industrial mecca at the end of a credit fueled pilgrimage.  The order might be filled.  Profit begins to flow as for the first time since life graced the surface, the colony has an export and for the first time the market is aware.

The industry is humming and the fuel is pumping when pilot pulls from their cargo holds a metal seed that will grow into plenty.  A pulsating metallic heart of an empire long past, the Synchrotron liberated from the decay-less death of space is plugged in, hums to life, and beats as though it had never stopped.  The order will be filled.  The market is concerned.

What was once a view of the galaxy unhindered is now blocked by the bulk of the shipping freighters arriving around the clock, bringing precious materials before filling up with as much fuel as they can carry and burning out again.  An infinite stream of life stretches across the horizon and the past and present can be seen in real time.  Next Tuesday arrives as the most recent birthed star of engine light at the edge of the gate while last Wednesday continues to burn its way through the gridlocked sky. The market is now in panic. The order must be filled.

Grudges forgotten and status quo's threatened a crusade of violent metal is assembled as livelyhoods collapse.  What was once a vibrant economy has been submerged under the constant infinite flow of the fuel from the edge.  It began as concerns about warehousing and illicit surplus, but has devolved into quaking panic as entire moons are overflown with the annihilator mana. A commodity who's scarcity balanced the relative tranquility of drowsy toddler empires is now so abundant as to be as worthless as the lives of those conscripted in the eyes of their terrified lords.  Sent off to build a dam of corpses and stem the flow.

The rate is incalculable. Impossible. Inhuman.  The worst is assumed and the final fleet is dispatched. The taboo is broken clear as the order in the chaos and it must be cleansed.  For the many lives that are about to be lost it will be because they have nothing left in the crush of an economy they could not understand, but for these souls it will be because of a threat they wish they could only be ignorant of.  Whatever the normal citizen fears from the false gods of trade they do not know the eldritch terror of the unhindered AI.

The colony becomes the star of malevolence when the fleets meet in the soundless trenches of space.  The profit has been spent and the system fortified. A hardened shell of weaponry and income, the battle rages from hyperspace to surface in an endless pile of rearranged carbon and light. Though the fuel is beyond measure the defenses are not, and through the splintered hulls and bone the invaders continue to press.  Glory to those who will fill the order.

And with the stars themselves alight with chaos, and the blink of an eye production wonder reduced back to ash like some cosmic mayfly that has pulled the souls of its species with it, the pilot races through hyper space in their escape pod. The dark and crammed quarters finally illuminate.  Finally in range of a beacon, the message comes through. 

Contract complete. 150,000c transferred

"neat" says the pilot.
[close]

tl;dr;omg;wtf-
1. Log scaling is fun and I neeeeeed sleep.
2. Hope if we're going to give incentives to player colonies to fill orders that we've had some tweaks to the late game economy so that isn't an automatic declaration of galactic war like it is now.
3. I love the changes.  As always i enjoy seeing more player decision and depth added.  I'm sure it's going to come with some tweaking but the concept is great, and I'm hoping plays into other systems as well (black market cough cough).
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Histidine on August 13, 2020, 06:51:13 PM
The real important revelation in the blog post is that titanium teeth are a thing in the Sector wait, a "Coronal Hypershunt"??

Oh, nice, we can draw GUI bars in a TooltipMakerAPI now

Future scenarios I'm having fun imagining:
- Handmade named characters as special contacts, perhaps even the faction leaders. "I get jobs from the Lion of Sindria himself!"
- [REDACTED] contact when

@Eji1700: I giggled
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Cyan Leader on August 13, 2020, 07:02:35 PM
Is this eventually going to tie in with the relationships you build up with random people across the sector (ie. station staff, fleet commanders, etc)? At the moment that is a very much unfinished and placeholder system which I always thought was going to be replaced eventually. Maybe that's in the plans for another update?

This is a little off topic but how's the balancing going so far for story points, by the way? I imagine that since the last blog post about them there has been a lot of playtesting, is the rate in which we acquire them unchanged?
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SonnaBanana on August 13, 2020, 07:05:18 PM
What about a fourth type of contact, Scientific, whose interests revolve around surveys, scannings and Domain-era artifacts of various types? And of course, [REDACTED].
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 13, 2020, 07:12:45 PM
It could be interesting if sometimes you could find other faction contacts on your worlds - a Tri-Tachyon trader who stays on your world to manage trade routes, or a Hegemony diplomat/military attaché, for example. Holding out for such a contact would be inefficient for a player who wants to improve their standing with a specific faction, but a lucky player could take advantage of those contacts to streamline their core world visits. Those contacts could also have a lower maximum importance, too - after all, if they were really that important why have they been sent to someone else's planet instead of staying at their organization's HQ?

Hmm, yeah - like I mentioned earlier, the "how you get contacts" bit isn't exactly an area that's seen a lot of focus. It doesn't *need* is, specifically - I think the system works fine if you just get contacts without much trouble - but those sorts of things could all be interesting, for sure!


This is awesome! Pumped to see creating quests become more accessible.

It was fun/gratifying to see the specific shift from an imperative to a declarative system for the quests; I wrote my own wrapper to make quests declarative already, although yours is, of course, far more accessible and comprehensive.

Spoiler
https://github.com/davidwhitman/Gates-Awakened/blob/master/src/main/kotlin/org/wisp/gatesawakened/midgame/MidgameQuestBeginning.kt

Code
class MidgameQuestBeginning : BarEventDefinition<MidgameQuestBeginning>(
    shouldShowEvent = { Midgame.shouldOfferQuest(it) },
    interactionPrompt = {
        addPara {
            "You spot a familiar tattoo; a grey circle around the eye of a $manOrWoman" +
                    " in the corner of the bar, glowing a faint white. " +
                    "You realize that it looks a bit like a ${mark("Gate")}."
        }
    },
    textToStartInteraction = {
        "Move in for a closer look at the tattooed $manOrWoman's tripad screen."
    },
    onInteractionStarted = {
        planetWithCache = Midgame.planetWithCache!! // Must exist for quest to be offered
    }
.......
[close]

Cool! Yeah, going more declarative seems like very much the way to go. Finding the right balance is tricky, though, but I'm happy with where it's landed. And, yeah, what you've posted looks pretty solid, too. Same general idea, looks like - using a base class with some methods/data members to facilitate a declarative approach.

I'm assuming you're using a language that works on top of a jvm and compiles into Java bytecode? Not identifying offhand what it is - clojure, maybe?

Note: Below, I critique some example code from the blog post without full context of the rest of the API. What's more, this is *your* codebase and your project - please feel free to ignore my critique; I have my own baby codebase, I understand and won't be offended.

I do have a question; how much will the order in which you call methods in this new, declarative API matter?

That is, I presume that you must first call beginTrigger(...), then define triggers, and then endTrigger(). Is that the case, and if so, why not add a class to define a trigger so that the order that quest bits are declared doesn't matter (like a Builder pattern)?
eg
Code
beginWithTrigger(
  new HyperspaceRangeTrigger(planet, 1f, false, Stage.GO_TO_RUINS, new TriggerConditions() {
    triggerCreateFleet(FleetSize.MEDIUM, FleetQuality.DEFAULT, Factions.PIRATES);
    triggerSetStandardAggroPirateFlags();
    triggerFleetAllowLongPursuit();
    triggerPickLocationAtInSystemJumpPoint(planet.getStarSystem());
    triggerSpawnFleetAtPickedLocation(“$gada_pirate”, null);
    triggerOrderFleetPatrol(planet);
  }
);

Hmm. Honestly, I'm not sure that syntax is an improvement over having an endTrigger() call. It's an extra line and a bunch of extra syntax that imo reduces clarity - not that there's a *huge* difference.

But I think maybe we're talking about slightly different things. In my approach, you call beginTrigger() and endTrigger() to define a trigger; the various triggerXXXX methods are "what you do within the trigger", not separate triggers, right. The order of those calls may or may not matter depending on what they are, specifically.

Actually - I don't understand what you mean by "so that the order that quest bits are declared [in] doesn't matter". So I think I might just be missing something of what you mean.


Something to steal from that system if you feel so inclined: after you reach a certain trust status with the contact, you can "call" them without physically being in front of them. So in this system, perhaps after level 4(?), you get access to a direct (encrypted!) line with the contact so that you can communicate directly. Perhaps you still have to be near a Comm Relay but you get the idea.

Hmm, yeah. I've been thinking about something like this! The idea of unlocking it at a certain rep level is a very good one, though.

The question is how to "sell" a real-time conversation over hypercomm. It's all pretty vague about whether that's actually possible or not... and whatever solution there needs to be able to utilize the same exact interaction text; otherwise it's way too much work to be viable.

Perhaps you can't say too much yet but will the rewards of these missions be non-standard? Credits, ships, and weapons are fine at first but by end game you're swimming in them. I presume blueprints, AI cores, Nanoforges, etc. will also be offered eventually, as well. But what about useful Intel like a completely surveyed system (with a high-value planet) or the locations of rare derelicts (like the Legion XIV)? I can think of other things more exotic but toward mid-game, I know that rewards that save me time or reduce the tedium factor are precious.

Most of it is standard. Anything that ends up being a *common* reward from these kinds of missions would be standard by definition, though...

But, yeah, I have some TODO items specifically regarding special items and blueprints - though that'd have to be more rare, or those items become "standard" as well. Story missions, on the other hand, are more likely to give you things that are entirely non-standard, because those missions are one-offs, as well.

Finally, and I don't know how much espionage you're planning, I think it would be really cool if one contact put a hit out on another existing contact of yours (I could imagine Underworld contacts doing this!) Maybe the (lucrative) reward is worth it, maybe it isn't...but it adds a level of choice.

Hah! I actually had a TODO item for exactly this being a "complication" for an assassination mission. Not sure I want to go ahead with it, though; it's perhaps a bit too dark for my taste.


2. Hope if we're going to give incentives to player colonies to fill orders that we've had some tweaks to the late game economy so that isn't an automatic declaration of galactic war like it is now.

I've got a TODO item to look at this, somewhere...

3. I love the changes.  As always i enjoy seeing more player decision and depth added.  I'm sure it's going to come with some tweaking but the concept is great, and I'm hoping plays into other systems as well (black market cough cough).

:D

Yeah, we'll see where it ends up. A lot of potential avenues for expansion here!


The real important revelation in the blog post is that titanium teeth are a thing in the Sector wait, a "Coronal Hypershunt"??

Ha!

Oh, nice, we can draw GUI bars in a TooltipMakerAPI now

You can add relationship bars and importance bars, but I'm afraid the code is pretty specific and it's not "general purpose bar".

But hey, on the bright side - TooltipMakerAPI now supports adding tooltips to the UI elements in it, via .addTooltipToPrevious(TooltipCreator creator).

Future scenarios I'm having fun imagining:
- Handmade named characters as special contacts, perhaps even the faction leaders themselves. "I get jobs from the Lion of Sindria himself!"
- [REDACTED] contact when

Those sound like fun indeed. And would be pretty easy to do. Well, easy on the technical side; the real effort with these kinds of things is the actual mission content.


Is this eventually going to tie in with the relationships you build up with random people across the sector (ie. station staff, fleet commanders, etc)? At the moment that is a very much unfinished and placeholder system which I always thought was going to be replaced eventually. Maybe that's in the plans for another update?

To the extent that some of these people can become contacts, yes. E.G. when it's generating a military mission at a bar, it'll look for military-type people already in existence at the market and only create a new one if there isn't one already. So you might for example hand in a bunch of AI cores and (IIRC?) raise the rep with that person and then run into them at a bar and have a much higher starting relationship if they become a "contact".

This is a little off topic but how's the balancing going so far for story points, by the way? I imagine that since the last blog post about them there has been a lot of playtesting, is the rate in which we acquire them unchanged?

Not as much as you'd think; it doesn't make too much sense to playtest the campaign until all of these things are in. I did do a bunch of combat testing when tuning the high-level "special" bounties - since the balance is different now, with less capital ship heavy fleets, and the player skills being different, and so on. But as far as campaign playtesting, there hasn't really been any.

(Actually, that resulted in some combat changes I'm very excited about that make objectives relevant in an "actually fun" way...)


What about a fourth type of contact, Scientific, whose interests revolve around surveys, scannings and Domain-era artifacts of various types?

Fun fact: there's a (currently unused) "Science" contact tag. So - maybe? The amount of content that can be added here is literally endless. The corollary to that is only a small percentage of what's actually possible can possibly actually be in the game.
Title: Re.: Personal Contacts
Post by: SonnaBanana on August 13, 2020, 08:29:17 PM
Any plans for aptitude checks/rolls in dialogue options? Like counting the number of purchased tech skills and setting your chance of successfully hacking an old TT security system during story event dialogue or something like that.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Wyvern on August 13, 2020, 08:51:41 PM
The question is how to "sell" a real-time conversation over hypercomm. It's all pretty vague about whether that's actually possible or not... and whatever solution there needs to be able to utilize the same exact interaction text; otherwise it's way too much work to be viable.
Maybe it's something you can only do if you're at a hypercom?  Or only works if you've got an AI core (any grade) in your inventory?  I mean, I habitually activate old domain hypercom relays whenever I find them, but there's not actually a lot of reward for doing that right now...

(Actually, that resulted in some combat changes I'm very excited about that make objectives relevant in an "actually fun" way...)
Oh, this sounds interesting!  I do miss having objectives be relevant - there were flaws with the old objectives = deployment value system, but it did two things very well that the current system can't really do at all: it made objectives important to take and hold, and it made small fast ships have a place even in large fleet battles, since you needed to contest with the enemy's screening forces before you could put your main combat ships on the field.
Title: Re: Re.: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 13, 2020, 09:09:44 PM
Any plans for aptitude checks/rolls in dialogue options? Like counting the number of purchased tech skills and setting your chance of successfully hacking an old TT security system during story event dialogue or something like that.

We've had some conversations about it! Ultimately, I don't think it's a great fit. Rolls in particular, adding RNG to a dialog doesn't seem like it'd be fun unless it was backed by a lot more than that, i.e. if it was something the game was built around so there was some gameplay there, not just choices. And skill-related options... they're possible, but I feel like it steps on the toes of story point options, which roughly fill the same role already, and are easier to work with since you can just pick any angle instead of having to shoehorn aptitudes in.


Maybe it's something you can only do if you're at a hypercom?  Or only works if you've got an AI core (any grade) in your inventory?  I mean, I habitually activate old domain hypercom relays whenever I find them, but there's not actually a lot of reward for doing that right now...

Ah, that's super interesting! This could certainly handwave well - you need to be in close proximity to a comm relay, AND you need an AI core, so real-time comms aren't an everyday thing.

... maybe this could even *consume* a Gamma Core (say, it gets burned out), to make it not something you can do all the time - as I do rather like the idea of you going to visit a contact, since that gives places more meaning and that's overall a good thing.

Oh, this sounds interesting!  I do miss having objectives be relevant - there were flaws with the old objectives = deployment value system, but it did two things very well that the current system can't really do at all: it made objectives important to take and hold, and it made small fast ships have a place even in large fleet battles, since you needed to contest with the enemy's screening forces before you could put your main combat ships on the field.

Ah, actually, let me paste the relevant patch notes! Basically, instead of just giving a small buff (which they still do), objectives also let you *do* something - deploy more ships. So that's real, qualitative impact - from playtesting, capturing one actually feels fun, since you're anticipating which ships you get to deploy.

This makes using smaller ships to capture and skirmish over them worthwhile. And there are supporting changes that both don't penalize you for putting officers in small ships, and remove any incentive for lugging around 10-15 "give me more deployment points" Paragons. And, capturing objectives doesn't let you snowball an advantage - it's more about evening out the playing field.

(This also connects up with using story points to temporarily hire above-the-limit mercenary officers; there's a lot of stuff that factors in.)

   Combat against REDACTED will have battle objectives (Nav Buoys etc)
      Staton battles and battles against automated defenses of salvageable derelicts still don't
   Deployment point distribution between opposing fleets now based primarily on number/level of officers
      Is no longer updated as ships are destroyed; only computed once when an engagement round starts
      Officer contribution does not depend on what type of ship they're in
         But they do have to be on a ship, unassigned officers do not contribute
   Battle objectives (Nav Buoys, Sensor Arrays, Comm Relays):
      Now grant bonus deployment points equal to a percentage of battle size
         5% for Nav Buoys and Sensor Arrays
         10% for Comm Relays
      Total with bonus can't exceed 60% of battle size (which is the normal cap for the larger fleet)
         So: no bonus points for a fleet that already vastly outnumbers the enemy
      Goal is to give player means to even out a battle where they're outnumbered through aggressive play/splitting their forces
   Adjusted enemy admiral AI to value controlling points more
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Thaago on August 13, 2020, 09:30:35 PM
Oh wow, % of battle size. So for those of us playing at 4-500, one of the minor objectives is enough for a cruiser, while a major objective is worth a capital. Thats pretty significant!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: hyperdrive on August 13, 2020, 09:42:31 PM
Hey Alex, I think it would be cool to spice up the rewards from these missions other than just cash.
Rewards could include a choice of ships, mid-level officers, a temporary (or potentially permanent) exemption from tarriffs from the local port or blueprints.
I would especially like to see blueprints here as its currently harder to get the blueprints of factions you are allied to, as raiding planets is a main way to reliably get blueprints.
obviously these would have to be scaled to fit the difficulty of the mission, but I think it would spice things up a bit from the usual cash and friendship reward.

Something else I think would be nice is to require a contact of the appropriate importance to vouch for you to progress in a faction from commission  -> friendly -> cooperative.
I think it would add some barrier to entry and more nuance than just chucking over 50 ai cores to become fully allied to a faction
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: ApolloStarsector on August 13, 2020, 09:52:12 PM
Very exciting! Can't wait to play around with the new content.
Title: Re: Re.: Personal Contacts
Post by: Eji1700 on August 13, 2020, 10:08:06 PM
stuff about objectives letting you deploy more
Dunno if it was intentional but I really like how elegant that solution is at also getting the player to think about deployment.  It's a neat system that feels completely overlooked as 90% of the playerbase likely just shows up in their initial fleet and begins chucking hulls at the enemy until there's nothing left.

Pausing to asses who's out of ammo and should retreat vs who can come in to replace them and similar things was a really cool way to find use out of some ships that I didn't really discover for awhile because deployment wasn't actively encouraged.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Narvi on August 13, 2020, 10:13:01 PM
You should look up Star Traders: Frontiers, Alex. It has a similar contacts system, though it's a lot more complex since the entire game is built around it. The contacts there are faction-based, and are mission dealers, contact providers, service providers, etc, and they interact with each other and other factions.

This looks like it's going to add a great deal of depth to the game!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SonnaBanana on August 13, 2020, 11:06:09 PM
Quote
   Deployment point distribution between opposing fleets now based primarily on number/level of officers
Oh yes!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Grievous69 on August 14, 2020, 12:50:04 AM
Maybe I missed something in the blog post but what exactly is different with these ''special'' bounties? I see there are potential higher-end enemies that wouldn't show up in normal bounties but it seems you'll get these after you complete a bunch of normal ones. Mind you, I'm completely fine with the way they're gonna work but I'm just confused on the ''special'' part. Or are they just called that because complications may happen? Anyways a great blog post, looking forward to relearning the game.

HUZZAH patch notes! Ok but seriously, those are some fantasstic changes. The officers being what's important in counting DP makes way more sense than ''here's a bunch of capitals''. I'm not too affected by this since I already use mostly cruisers, but I'll guess even faster ships will be useful now.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Originem on August 14, 2020, 01:09:19 AM
Well I am confused that if these scripts will affect the current intel codes...
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Gothars on August 14, 2020, 01:23:39 AM
Interesting blog post, I'm looking forward to all the official and modding content that this will make easier to implement:)

It might be cool if some contacts could turn into officers for hire, after you have build a rapport with them.

The question is how to "sell" a real-time conversation over hypercomm. It's all pretty vague about whether that's actually possible or not... and whatever solution there needs to be able to utilize the same exact interaction text; otherwise it's way too much work to be viable.

Maybe you could use an AI core to simulate a quest givers personality for a while. And since the personality copy was uploaded while at dock, it still believes itself to be there and thus gives you the same texts.


BTW, any chance for a blog post about the deployment system update? To me it's actually more exciting than the personal contacts topic^^"
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Grievous69 on August 14, 2020, 01:28:49 AM
BTW, any chance for a blog post about the deployment system update? To me it's actually more exciting than the personal contacts topic^^"
It certainly is more impactful. I was kinda surprised that such a big thing was casually mentioned in a thread dedicated to a completely different topic, not that I mind it tho. Not sure it could be made into an entire blog post, seems pretty straightforward to me.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: mendonca on August 14, 2020, 02:29:20 AM
Thanks Alex,

Really excited by the developments, as always.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Amoebka on August 14, 2020, 04:12:44 AM
Do people you interact with when answering distress beacons become contacts when they get back to safety? That would be a cool reward for saving them.

Also, can't wait until some modder uses the new functionality to turn Starsector into an AI core dating sim.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: sqrt(-1) on August 14, 2020, 04:22:00 AM
Great news.

I hope that the mentioned mission difficulty scaling won't solely rely on larger fleets but include things like stealth missions where higher skills as a pilot are required.

Only indirectly related: Are there changes to the problem of random high value drops like nanoforges & alpha cores without challenges, which instantly shoot players into the late game?
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: DatonKallandor on August 14, 2020, 04:22:10 AM
You should look up Star Traders: Frontiers, Alex. It has a similar contacts system, though it's a lot more complex since the entire game is built around it. The contacts there are faction-based, and are mission dealers, contact providers, service providers, etc, and they interact with each other and other factions.

This looks like it's going to add a great deal of depth to the game!

The whole thing gives me big Star Traders Frontiers vibes too. They have missions and contacts figured out, so a good place to look for inspiration.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: FooF on August 14, 2020, 05:48:11 AM
Re: "Calling" Contacts

I also really like the idea of having to be at a system's hyper comm and potentially using up a Gamma Core. It's a non-trivial expense that saves you some time, especially if you're a well-developed player with your own faction at some distance from the Core Worlds. I guess if you're swimming in Gamma Cores, you can make use of such a system more often but I don't know how much, if any, the AI Cores have changed. Gamma Cores don't do a whole lot for Colonies in the current version and it's not uncommon for me to have 20+ stored up after going into a few Red Beacon [REDACTED] system.

Even if Gamma Cores are unchanged (i.e. relatively useless to me under normal circumstances), the choice I now have is to use them to call my contacts or to turn them in for credits/rep with factions. That they're used as a high-end form of "currency" either way makes them vastly more important to me than present. Heck, if that was the case, I'd like to see more ways AI Cores could be used as currency for other forms of trade/mechanics.

Re: Deployment changes

Yeah, that's a pretty big bombshell! But very cool, too. That does make smaller/faster craft much more valuable for both running interference and getting behind the enemy lines.

Somewhat off-topic but it's always bugged me that bigger ships don't capture points faster than smaller ships. Something about the opportunity cost of having a capital wait around to capture a point the same length as a frigate just hasn't sat well with me. (The capital being at full speed and passively capturing the point on the way notwithstanding!) I've always felt that there could be modifiers to the capture rate, either by ship size, by deployment point cost of the ship in question, by number of ships within the capture zone, etc. However, there's never been a reason to really dive into it because the objectives were never all that important.

Now, with this new system, capturing/holding will be more important and modifiers to capture rate may be worth looking into. Capture rate could be based on ships size, but perhaps the inverse of my original logic: Frigates capture the fastest to keep them useful later. Or perhaps there's a hull mod that increases capture rate so that you make certain ships in your fleet more specialized in this role. Just a thought.

@ Amoebka

I think that's a great way of making Distress Beacons more important/worthwhile. At a certain point in the game, answering Distress Beacons is never worth it from a cost/benefit perspective.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Ryan390 on August 14, 2020, 06:50:41 AM
Good stuff, nice to get an update on what's being worked on.. Thanks for that  :)
Title: Re: Re.: Personal Contacts
Post by: Megas on August 14, 2020, 07:43:20 AM
Re: Objectives
Seems like a throwback to pre-0.6a combat in Starfarer.  Hopefully, it will not be as extreme as deploying two Hyperion to capture all the points, then send the advancing wall of ships to pick off enemy frigates then spawn camp at their side of the screen for an easy way.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: intrinsic_parity on August 14, 2020, 08:28:30 AM
Is the skill that lets you get extra officers being removed with he skill update? It seems like it would be 100% mandatory if officers also let you deploy more forces.

Also, gamma cores are useful for maintaining or repairing reputation with factions, and to me, they feel a bit too valuable for something as inconsequential as getting a few extra missions while out and about. It feels like it's something you would want to do all the time for convenience, but not something where it's actually necessary so that you feel like you need to use a very limited resource. I just can't imagine a scenario where I'm more desperate than normal to get missions so that I would think about burning AI cores instead of flying home and restocking. I would prefer basic resources like volatiles or supplies instead so that I could actually use the mechanic as a convenience outside of the time in the game where I'm farming red systems (tbh I don't even need missions anymore at that point).
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: FooF on August 14, 2020, 08:44:52 AM
@ intrinsic_parity

If a call feature were implemented, I don't know if I'd use it until mid/late game anyway as a way to circumvent spending hundreds of fuel/supplies to visit a contact. Unless there's a way to quickly and easily swap out my end-game fleet with something that travels lighter, I don't want to spend the time dropping ships off in storage, just to retrieve them again. (I'm speaking mostly from the perspective that I'll be around my own colonies, not the Core Worlds).

I, personally, don't use Gamma Cores for anything right now, not even maintaining reputation. Perhaps I should, but even with that said, that's their only use right now (since their usefulness in colonies is marginal). I'm not disagreeing that a lesser form of commodity could be used. Alex seems concerned that such a feature should be used sparingly and Gamma Cores kind of fit the bill lore-wise.

Depending on how useful Contacts are late-game (I hope still very useful) and if the option is there, the question becomes, Do I want to spend the time/supplies/fuel to visit Contact X or do I want to go to the nearest System Comm and spend [insert commodity here]? Answering that question has a lot to do with where you are, what your fleet looks like, how much you have to spend, and what the opportunity cost of spending that commodity is. If it was a Gamma Core, I ask myself "Is it a single Gamma Core worth 1000 fuel, 150 supplies, and 2 weeks of travel (5 minutes of game time)?" It might be. But at least the option is there. At end game, I think I'd take the shortcut.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Grievous69 on August 14, 2020, 08:47:08 AM
Is the skill that lets you get extra officers being removed with he skill update? It seems like it would be 100% mandatory if officers also let you deploy more forces.
Base number of officers is now 8, but you'll still be able to get to 10 with a skill. So yes, it would seem it's gonna be ridiculously good.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SonnaBanana on August 14, 2020, 09:43:52 AM
Given the new skill system, are all AI officers considered to be Max Level? Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Title: Re: Re.: Personal Contacts
Post by: Wyvern on August 14, 2020, 10:13:05 AM
Ah, actually, let me paste the relevant patch notes! Basically, instead of just giving a small buff (which they still do), objectives also let you *do* something - deploy more ships. So that's real, qualitative impact - from playtesting, capturing one actually feels fun, since you're anticipating which ships you get to deploy.

This makes using smaller ships to capture and skirmish over them worthwhile. And there are supporting changes that both don't penalize you for putting officers in small ships, and remove any incentive for lugging around 10-15 "give me more deployment points" Paragons. And, capturing objectives doesn't let you snowball an advantage - it's more about evening out the playing field.

Neat!

Not in the patch notes, but needs to be dealt with: if objectives are being made more important again, the AI needs some improvements to being able to actually capture a node.  For an example, if I give a capture order to a fast cruiser, and a couple of enemy frigates wander over to harass it, it should darned well sit on the node until it's captured it and only then start chasing after things that'll take it a while to catch.  (For an example from a recent battle - I set a ship to capture a node... the enemy didn't even contest that node, but some of their ships happened to be going by at maybe 3000su away or so, and my ship wandered off-node towards them.  Didn't even manage to get in range of anything, but it also wasn't capturing the node, either.)
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: pairedeciseaux on August 14, 2020, 11:11:42 AM
Good to see a new blog post!

Personal contacts look like a well designed solution, and will most certainly provide a good framework for more organic content and gameplay. Nice.

Also the declarative approach is good to see, though I have to ask: why not go even further and have declarative statements and maybe basic logic in non-Java files (like .ship files)? So that adding such content could be done without having to deal with Java.

Agree with some comments here, the surprise/understated announcement above of deployment and battle related changes is as much if not more important (at least for existing players), because it touches existing core gameplay. So another blog post with a summary of it could be our next hype raising ticket, ha!  :D
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 14, 2020, 11:28:07 AM
Oh wow, % of battle size. So for those of us playing at 4-500, one of the minor objectives is enough for a cruiser, while a major objective is worth a capital. Thats pretty significant!

Yep! Kind of has to be, since the idea is you can balance the odds with a quick aggressive play at the start.


Hey Alex, I think it would be cool to spice up the rewards from these missions other than just cash.
Rewards could include a choice of ships, mid-level officers, a temporary (or potentially permanent) exemption from tarriffs from the local port or blueprints.
I would especially like to see blueprints here as its currently harder to get the blueprints of factions you are allied to, as raiding planets is a main way to reliably get blueprints.
obviously these would have to be scaled to fit the difficulty of the mission, but I think it would spice things up a bit from the usual cash and friendship reward.

Some of this is in, actually. Well, kind of. For example, one of the "military" rewards is being able to buy a good quality surplus military hull cheaply, whith a better relationship resulting in a better/bigger hull being offered.

... actually, this reminds me of something pretty big I *completely forgot* to talk about in the blog post! Another type of "mission" is a "custom production order" that you're able to give - using a screen that's much the same as the colony ship/weapon/fighter custom production screen. Higher importance/relationship increases the max value of the order, which is delivered to storage at the colony after a time.

You can pick either from your own blueprints, or from blueprints the contact has. Trade contacts don't have any, military contacts have their faction blueprints, and underworld arms dealers have the good stuff. The idea here is you can make intermittent use of blueprints you know before you have a colony up and running, and *also* it's a means to reliably get a hold of some stuff that's otherwise, for whatever reason, extremely rare.

(Modding note: no_drop, no_sell, and no_dealer blueprints are excluded from being available this way from the contact, unless the player knows them.)


Something else I think would be nice is to require a contact of the appropriate importance to vouch for you to progress in a faction from commission  -> friendly -> cooperative.
I think it would add some barrier to entry and more nuance than just chucking over 50 ai cores to become fully allied to a faction

That could be interesting, yeah. I'm not really sure how much I want to expand commissions; there's a lot that couldbe done there but it's kind of... its own thing. We'll see, though. I guess what I'm saying more than anything is that "expanding commissions" would be its own effort and not "let's add some things to it while doing something else", if that makes sense.


Very exciting! Can't wait to play around with the new content.

Thanks!


Dunno if it was intentional but I really like how elegant that solution is at also getting the player to think about deployment.  It's a neat system that feels completely overlooked as 90% of the playerbase likely just shows up in their initial fleet and begins chucking hulls at the enemy until there's nothing left.

Oh, hey, yeah! That's definitely true, since now you have to consider what you think you'll be able to capture, how much that gives you, what you can deploy as the 2nd wave if you succeed, what you need to deploy to capture it, and so on.


You should look up Star Traders: Frontiers, Alex. It has a similar contacts system, though it's a lot more complex since the entire game is built around it. The contacts there are faction-based, and are mission dealers, contact providers, service providers, etc, and they interact with each other and other factions.

This looks like it's going to add a great deal of depth to the game!

Actually, the contacts thing IIRC was partly spurred on my someone making a related suggestion based on Star Traders! It makes sense that ST:F would be more all-in on that, though, at least given what little I know about the game (which seems very cool, btw).


Maybe I missed something in the blog post but what exactly is different with these ''special'' bounties? I see there are potential higher-end enemies that wouldn't show up in normal bounties but it seems you'll get these after you complete a bunch of normal ones. Mind you, I'm completely fine with the way they're gonna work but I'm just confused on the ''special'' part. Or are they just called that because complications may happen? Anyways a great blog post, looking forward to relearning the game.

Hmm - I guess I wouldn't read too much into the word "special" - they're basically an alternate source of bounties that's more restricted, and considerably more varied and challenging. Does that make it "special"? Who's to say :)

HUZZAH patch notes! Ok but seriously, those are some fantasstic changes. The officers being what's important in counting DP makes way more sense than ''here's a bunch of capitals''. I'm not too affected by this since I already use mostly cruisers, but I'll guess even faster ships will be useful now.

Since one of my concerns was whether officers counting for this "makes sense", I'm very happy to hear this!


Well I am confused that if these scripts will affect the current intel codes...

They won't, no. For example the vanilla Red Planet mission did not need any changes and works as-is.



Interesting blog post, I'm looking forward to all the official and modding content that this will make easier to implement:)

Hey - good to see you around!

Yeah, here's hoping this helps as far as modding in missions. That's very much a goal.

It might be cool if some contacts could turn into officers for hire, after you have build a rapport with them.

Hmm, perhaps! I'm not sure that it's a useful conversion, though - a contact is generally more valuable than an officer. And if a contact would become some kind of super-officer, then that might encourage farming up contacts for that, and that doesn't seem great.


Maybe you could use an AI core to simulate a quest givers personality for a while. And since the personality copy was uploaded while at dock, it still believes itself to be there and thus gives you the same texts.

Have you been reading Alastair Reynolds recently? :) The whole "beta personality simulation" thing and so on...


BTW, any chance for a blog post about the deployment system update? To me it's actually more exciting than the personal contacts topic^^"
It certainly is more impactful. I was kinda surprised that such a big thing was casually mentioned in a thread dedicated to a completely different topic, not that I mind it tho. Not sure it could be made into an entire blog post, seems pretty straightforward to me.

Yeah, I'm not sure there's *that* much to talk about with that! It's impactful but what I wrote I think pretty much covers it. That said, happy to elaborate on any aspect!


Thanks Alex,

Really excited by the developments, as always.

:D (Also, hey!)

Do people you interact with when answering distress beacons become contacts when they get back to safety? That would be a cool reward for saving them.

Hmm. Another interesting idea, yeah. They don't - as I was saying earlier, getting contacts is pretty much a bar-only thing right now - but I wouldn't rule out a pass at some point for "other ways to get contacts", and that sort of thing would fit right in.

Also, can't wait until some modder uses the new functionality to turn Starsector into an AI core dating sim.

... don't give them ideas.


I hope that the mentioned mission difficulty scaling won't solely rely on larger fleets but include things like stealth missions where higher skills as a pilot are required.

It's specifically for these custom bounties, so stealth missions don't factor in directly. Aside from the need for stealth if, say, your target is a Pather fleet inside a system with a Pather base and a bunch of Holy Armadas.

Only indirectly related: Are there changes to the problem of random high value drops like nanoforges & alpha cores without challenges, which instantly shoot players into the late game?

Hmm, I don't think this is a "problem". You get a drop like this, and it's a choice - do you sell it and spend the money for a boost now, or do you keep the rare item and use it to get more benefit out of it later? Presenting the player with that choice is an intentional thing the game does. That said, I've been meaning to look at and perhaps tone down the sell prices. I wouldn't say 300k or so catapults you into the endgame on its own, either - it's not enough to buy a Paragon (even if one is available), let alone outfit it. I mean, it's certainly a big step, but let's not overstate it - it's also what you'd get from doing a few midrange bounties, right.

(Also, there's *a lot* more special items, which I think increases their value since finding another is much less likely. E.G. where you might now find a nanoforge, it'll be one of... around 10 or so things, with their own unique and powerful effects.)




I also really like the idea of having to be at a system's hyper comm and potentially using up a Gamma Core. It's a non-trivial expense that saves you some time, especially if you're a well-developed player with your own faction at some distance from the Core Worlds. I guess if you're swimming in Gamma Cores, you can make use of such a system more often but I don't know how much, if any, the AI Cores have changed. Gamma Cores don't do a whole lot for Colonies in the current version and it's not uncommon for me to have 20+ stored up after going into a few Red Beacon [REDACTED] system.

Even if Gamma Cores are unchanged (i.e. relatively useless to me under normal circumstances), the choice I now have is to use them to call my contacts or to turn them in for credits/rep with factions. That they're used as a high-end form of "currency" either way makes them vastly more important to me than present. Heck, if that was the case, I'd like to see more ways AI Cores could be used as currency for other forms of trade/mechanics.

One thing I completely forgot about is that a lot of the missions assume the player is physically present. Things like taking cargo on-board, buying a ship from the contact, etc. So that stuff would need to get filtered out, hmm...


Somewhat off-topic but it's always bugged me that bigger ships don't capture points faster than smaller ships. Something about the opportunity cost of having a capital wait around to capture a point the same length as a frigate just hasn't sat well with me. (The capital being at full speed and passively capturing the point on the way notwithstanding!) I've always felt that there could be modifiers to the capture rate, either by ship size, by deployment point cost of the ship in question, by number of ships within the capture zone, etc. However, there's never been a reason to really dive into it because the objectives were never all that important.

Now, with this new system, capturing/holding will be more important and modifiers to capture rate may be worth looking into. Capture rate could be based on ships size, but perhaps the inverse of my original logic: Frigates capture the fastest to keep them useful later. Or perhaps there's a hull mod that increases capture rate so that you make certain ships in your fleet more specialized in this role. Just a thought.

To me it feels like it's fast enough already that it wouldn't really matter, no? If you've got a capital ship there, chances are you've taken the objective by the time you're able to just move through it at the normal (i.e. slow) speed of the capital.


Good stuff, nice to get an update on what's being worked on.. Thanks for that  :)

Thank you!

Also, gamma cores are useful for maintaining or repairing reputation with factions, and to me, they feel a bit too valuable for something as inconsequential as getting a few extra missions while out and about. It feels like it's something you would want to do all the time for convenience, but not something where it's actually necessary so that you feel like you need to use a very limited resource. I just can't imagine a scenario where I'm more desperate than normal to get missions so that I would think about burning AI cores instead of flying home and restocking. I would prefer basic resources like volatiles or supplies instead so that I could actually use the mechanic as a convenience outside of the time in the game where I'm farming red systems (tbh I don't even need missions anymore at that point).

Hmm, yeah, this is... a good point. Perhaps this could be a use for story points, actually, with full bonus XP granted so it's "eventually free, but not in the short term".


Is the skill that lets you get extra officers being removed with he skill update? It seems like it would be 100% mandatory if officers also let you deploy more forces.
Base number of officers is now 8, but you'll still be able to get to 10 with a skill. So yes, it would seem it's gonna be ridiculously good.

Right! The alternate skill to "+2 officers" gives +1 to offcer level, and since officer level also factors in here, they're... not precisely equivalent, but close. I don't think it'll matter that much, anyway, since you're pretty likely to be at 40% deployment regarldess of which one you take when fighting the highest-tier enemies. So objectives will be the ticket - and taking on some additonal temporary mercenary officers, for anything that's too tough otherwise.

Given the new skill system, are all AI officers considered to be Max Level? Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Their actual level is used, if that's what you're asking.


Not in the patch notes, but needs to be dealt with: if objectives are being made more important again, the AI needs some improvements to being able to actually capture a node.  For an example, if I give a capture order to a fast cruiser, and a couple of enemy frigates wander over to harass it, it should darned well sit on the node until it's captured it and only then start chasing after things that'll take it a while to catch.  (For an example from a recent battle - I set a ship to capture a node... the enemy didn't even contest that node, but some of their ships happened to be going by at maybe 3000su away or so, and my ship wandered off-node towards them.  Didn't even manage to get in range of anything, but it also wasn't capturing the node, either.)

Ah yeah - I actually did make some changes here, they were just in a different section of the patch notes and I didn't include them. It was more focused on frigates but I *think* it would also help in the scenario you describe. I'll have another look, though.


Also the declarative approach is good to see, though I have to ask: why not go even further and have declarative statements and maybe basic logic in non-Java files (like .ship files)? So that adding such content could be done without having to deal with Java.

I thought about it! Basically, what you're seeing as an upside - getting away from Java - is actually a downside :) There'll always be something custom, even if it's minor like putting together a string or something. And being able to use a Java editor is extremely nice. For example, I can type in "trigger" and hit auto-complete and see the list of possible methods, instead of having to look up what's valid in this particular text file or whatever. And, the documentation for this gets generated automatically, so it's better for modders, too.

(Somewhat tangentially, that's what the "code is data" point is about... that there's not much conceptual difference between a data file and a file with code; what matters is the stuff around it that makes it easier or harder to work with.)

Agree with some comments here, the surprise/understated announcement above of deployment and battle related changes is as much if not more important (at least for existing players), because it touches existing core gameplay. So another blog post with a summary of it could be our next hype raising ticket, ha!  :D

:D
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Grievous69 on August 14, 2020, 11:34:46 AM
... actually, this reminds me of something pretty big I *completely forgot* to talk about in the blog post! Another type of "mission" is a "custom production order" that you're able to give - using a screen that's much the same as the colony ship/weapon/fighter custom production screen. Higher importance/relationship increases the max value of the order, which is delivered to storage at the colony after a time.

You can pick either from your own blueprints, or from blueprints the contact has. Trade contacts don't have any, military contacts have their faction blueprints, and underworld arms dealers have the good stuff. The idea here is you can make intermittent use of blueprints you know before you have a colony up and running, and *also* it's a means to reliably get a hold of some stuff that's otherwise, for whatever reason, extremely rare.
YES!YES!YES! I remember this being a frequent suggestion, so glad it made it in. Finally some use of early game blueprint hunting.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Thaago on August 14, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
... Does this mean that if we get a Hegemony military contact of high enough standing we can custom order XIV ships without having to raid the Hegemony for them? I would love to be able to advance as a Hegemony commissioned bounty hunter, eventually sporting those pretty orange stripes on my ships.

...

Hype! :D
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 14, 2020, 12:01:51 PM
... Does this mean that if we get a Hegemony military contact of high enough standing we can custom order XIV ships without having to raid the Hegemony for them?

I do believe that it does!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SCC on August 14, 2020, 12:18:38 PM
It doesn't lock you to a faction, though it does make it easier to gain faction rep since completing missions for a contact will also increase your rep with the faction.
I feel that it's a missed opportunity, at least in the current state of the game. Any given faction's standing, positive or negative, is mostly an arbitrary choice on the part of the player that doesn't affect anything else. It's mostly a question of how much time are you willing on to spend on buddying up with everyone.

I also just realised contacts are also going to be used to get rid of commodity excess, I recall you saying something about that. I'd have preferred economy to get on a grander scale and provide this in an organic way, but I can nag you to go back to geometric economy only for so long.

Hmm, yeah, this is... a good point. Perhaps this could be a use for story points, actually, with full bonus XP granted so it's "eventually free, but not in the short term".
I hope you won't go overboard with story point sinks, lest they become routine, ordinary. And yeah, gamma cores continue to be fairly worthless, aside from being friendship tokens.

Is the skill that lets you get extra officers being removed with he skill update? It seems like it would be 100% mandatory if officers also let you deploy more forces.
Base number of officers is now 8, but you'll still be able to get to 10 with a skill. So yes, it would seem it's gonna be ridiculously good.
Not necessarily. There's a lot the player can do even without officers, it just demands more skill from the player.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: pairedeciseaux on August 14, 2020, 12:23:59 PM
Also the declarative approach is good to see, though I have to ask: why not go even further and have declarative statements and maybe basic logic in non-Java files (like .ship files)? So that adding such content could be done without having to deal with Java.

I thought about it! Basically, what you're seeing as an upside - getting away from Java - is actually a downside :) There'll always be something custom, even if it's minor like putting together a string or something. And being able to use a Java editor is extremely nice. For example, I can type in "trigger" and hit auto-complete and see the list of possible methods, instead of having to look up what's valid in this particular text file or whatever. And, the documentation for this gets generated automatically, so it's better for modders, too.

(Somewhat tangentially, that's what the "code is data" point is about... that there's not much conceptual difference between a data file and a file with code; what matters is the stuff around it that makes it easier or harder to work with.)

Sure, I understand the advantages of the code approach. Let me elaborate.

Pure programmers have mostly logic and coding skills (*).

Pure content creators have mostly story-telling and/or art-producing skills (*).

(*) WRT to subject discussed here

Sure, there are people having a mix of skills, but it's not that common. And there are people with coding skills that won't touch Java.

Who would create tons of missions using the new framework? How? Look further down the road, a few years from now, when Starsector will be million seller.

Ideal answer, IMHO, is content creators without programming skills, using a GUI tool. Even if such a GUI tool do not initially exist, non-code text file are accessible enough to such people and let them contribute using their existing skills. And it's easy to plug a GUI tool on top of non-code text files. Said GUI tool would be better than your IDE's autocomplete feature.

Having the option to write advanced logic in Java code sure is a good option, and I have no doubt that you and a few modding wizards will do great things with it, but IMO it should not be mandatory. There are other places where such a non-code approach could be good: for example star system definition (unless I'm mistaken, those require Java code).

In other words, you could have both the new Java declarative API/format when fine control / advanced logic is required, and a non-Java declarative file front-end for the easy cases.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: David on August 14, 2020, 12:40:28 PM
Pure programmers have mostly logic and coding skills (*).

Pure content creators have mostly story-telling and/or art-producing skills (*).

(*) WRT to subject discussed here

Sure, there are people having a mix of skills, but it's not that common.

*raises hand*

Part of what is exciting about all of this - at least to me - is that it makes this piece of the content pipeline a lot easier for me to use efficiently. More content made faster = game done faster!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: FooF on August 14, 2020, 01:07:33 PM
It doesn't lock you to a faction, though it does make it easier to gain faction rep since completing missions for a contact will also increase your rep with the faction.
I feel that it's a missed opportunity, at least in the current state of the game. Any given faction's standing, positive or negative, is mostly an arbitrary choice on the part of the player that doesn't affect anything else. It's mostly a question of how much time are you willing on to spend on buddying up with everyone.

I'm kind of in the same boat as SCC here. At some point I'd imagine you have to start choosing where your allegiances lie. If you wanted to progress further up the chain or improve standing with VIPs, you'd have to start forsaking contacts from rival factions. I would find my suspension of disbelief waning if the player character could schmooze with the upper echelon of contacts for two or more rival factions simultaneously. Low-to-mid- level ones, sure, no problem, but at the highest level? I don't know if they should be mutually exclusive or just very difficult (like using Story Points along the way).


Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Megas on August 14, 2020, 01:15:38 PM
At some point I'd imagine you have to start choosing where your allegiances lie.
ME (my colonies)!  At some point, the core worlds die and no longer nag at my faction.  No more nagging means free to explore or grind Ordos without constant interruptions grinding my activities to a halt just to babysit something.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: intrinsic_parity on August 14, 2020, 01:16:52 PM
Also, gamma cores are useful for maintaining or repairing reputation with factions, and to me, they feel a bit too valuable for something as inconsequential as getting a few extra missions while out and about. It feels like it's something you would want to do all the time for convenience, but not something where it's actually necessary so that you feel like you need to use a very limited resource. I just can't imagine a scenario where I'm more desperate than normal to get missions so that I would think about burning AI cores instead of flying home and restocking. I would prefer basic resources like volatiles or supplies instead so that I could actually use the mechanic as a convenience outside of the time in the game where I'm farming red systems (tbh I don't even need missions anymore at that point).
Hmm, yeah, this is... a good point. Perhaps this could be a use for story points, actually, with full bonus XP granted so it's "eventually free, but not in the short term".
I have no idea how the story point system will play, so I don't really know how this would feel, but my impression of how calling contacts should be used is "I'm out exploring/flying around the core and want to see if there are any convenient missions nearby to make some extra money" which is sort of a casual interaction/check and not something that feels super consequential or critical enough to warrant spending important resources (that's just my impression). Maybe you could restrict the pool of missions available remotely to be of lower quality, so that you might find a couple basic missions to make more money, but you won't get the really juicy high level missions without meeting in person? You could also restrict remote access based on relationship with the contact (they only give you their number after you become good friends :P). Those seem like more natural ways of avoiding a situation where the player never goes to meet the contact in person, but maybe I'm not thinking about the system in the right way since I haven't played it.

Is the skill that lets you get extra officers being removed with he skill update? It seems like it would be 100% mandatory if officers also let you deploy more forces.
Base number of officers is now 8, but you'll still be able to get to 10 with a skill. So yes, it would seem it's gonna be ridiculously good.

Right! The alternate skill to "+2 officers" gives +1 to offcer level, and since officer level also factors in here, they're... not precisely equivalent, but close. I don't think it'll matter that much, anyway, since you're pretty likely to be at 40% deployment regarldess of which one you take when fighting the highest-tier enemies.
Hmm, so no matter which way you go in the tree, you get some extra deployment points and benefits to officers? That seems very reasonable.

also
...and taking on some additonal temporary mercenary officers, for anything that's too tough otherwise.
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o  is this a new thing? or just referring to grabbing up a few low level/bad officers for a fight and then firing them immediately?

It doesn't lock you to a faction, though it does make it easier to gain faction rep since completing missions for a contact will also increase your rep with the faction.
I feel that it's a missed opportunity, at least in the current state of the game. Any given faction's standing, positive or negative, is mostly an arbitrary choice on the part of the player that doesn't affect anything else. It's mostly a question of how much time are you willing on to spend on buddying up with everyone.
I 100% agree with SCC on this, I think the game should make you pick sides more/make your decisions more consequential. It would make sense that your hegemony contacts would be *** when you started doing missions for the TT.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 14, 2020, 01:28:13 PM
I hope you won't go overboard with story point sinks, lest they become routine, ordinary.

Hmm - I don't think that's a concern, since the limiting factor here is the availability of story points. The more things to spend them on, the merrier! The only "danger" is having a story point use that's clearly not worth it so it never gets used. Which might actually be the case here, really.


It doesn't lock you to a faction, though it does make it easier to gain faction rep since completing missions for a contact will also increase your rep with the faction.
I feel that it's a missed opportunity, at least in the current state of the game. Any given faction's standing, positive or negative, is mostly an arbitrary choice on the part of the player that doesn't affect anything else. It's mostly a question of how much time are you willing on to spend on buddying up with everyone.

I'm kind of in the same boat as SCC here. At some point I'd imagine you have to start choosing where your allegiances lie. If you wanted to progress further up the chain or improve standing with VIPs, you'd have to start forsaking contacts from rival factions. I would find my suspension of disbelief waning if the player character could schmooze with the upper echelon of contacts for two or more rival factions simultaneously. Low-to-mid- level ones, sure, no problem, but at the highest level? I don't know if they should be mutually exclusive or just very difficult (like using Story Points along the way).

I mean, there's a time-honored tradition of playing both sides against each other, so I feel like it only requires a bit of imagination to make it "make sense"! That said, all of this is to me in the category of "you could also use contacts to do <thing>". Which, sure! And it sounds like it could be cool! But the set of things like this is endless, and there are only so many ways I can say that this particular way of applying them didn't happen, and may or may not happen at some point in the future. Like, this is more in the category of a suggestion for another thing to do, and less a critique (which "missed opportunity" kind of implies), if that makes sense.


Sure, I understand the advantages of the code approach. Let me elaborate.

Pure programmers have mostly logic and coding skills (*).

Pure content creators have mostly story-telling and/or art-producing skills (*).

(*) WRT to subject discussed here

Sure, there are people having a mix of skills, but it's not that common. And there are people with coding skills that won't touch Java.

Who would create tons of missions using the new framework? How? Look further down the road, a few years from now, when Starsector will be million seller.

Ideal answer, IMHO, is content creators without programming skills, using a GUI tool. Even if such a GUI tool do not initially exist, non-code text file are accessible enough to such people and let them contribute using their existing skills. And it's easy to plug a GUI tool on top of non-code text files. Said GUI tool would be better than your IDE's autocomplete feature.

Having the option to write advanced logic in Java code sure is a good option, and I have no doubt that you and a few modding wizards will do great things with it, but IMO it should not be mandatory. There are other places where such a non-code approach could be good: for example star system definition (unless I'm mistaken, those require Java code).

In other words, you could have both the new Java declarative API/format when fine control / advanced logic is required, and a non-Java declarative file front-end for the easy cases.

I think "person without at least a bit of coding skills putting together compelling missions" is just flat-out unrealistic. Whether the mission specification is in "code" or "data", it'll be of about the same complexity and creating the "data" manually would require coding skills. Because it's complex enough.

But, what about a GUI? There's really nothing prevent a GUI from generating code in the current format (see: code == data). The extra effort of compiling it (which isn't strictly necessary, as the game could do it on startup, but it would be significantly better) would be pretty minor compared to the mountain of other tasks involved in creating such a GUI.

The real driver of complexity here is "what you actually need to do to make an interesting mission", not whether the ascii characters that define it end up in a .java or a .txt file, if you know what I mean. I think that's the key point - putting stuff in a text file will absolutely *not* make it simpler. In fact, since a text file is not a great fit for this for various reasons, and since a ton more things would have to be translated from text into code by some additional layer, it'll make it *more* complicated.



I have no idea how the story point system will play, so I don't really know how this would feel, but my impression of how calling contacts should be used is "I'm out exploring/flying around the core and want to see if there are any convenient missions nearby to make some extra money" which is sort of a casual interaction/check and not something that feels super consequential or critical enough to warrant spending important resources (that's just my impression). Maybe you could restrict the pool of missions available remotely to be of lower quality, so that you might find a couple basic missions to make more money, but you won't get the really juicy high level missions without meeting in person? You could also restrict remote access based on relationship with the contact (they only give you their number after you become good friends :P). Those seem like more natural ways of avoiding a situation where the player never goes to meet the contact in person, but maybe I'm not thinking about the system in the right way since I haven't played it.

No, that makes sense. I'm also not 100% sure how it'd play, but that idea is worth keeping in mind.


Hmm, so no matter which way you go in the tree, you get some extra deployment points and benefits to officers? That seems very reasonable.

Yep.

...and taking on some additonal temporary mercenary officers, for anything that's too tough otherwise.
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o  is this a new thing? or just referring to grabbing up a few low level/bad officers for a fight and then firing them immediately?

It's new but I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it here and there on the forum. But, basically - regular officers you hire are now presented as... "Officer for hire" or something like that. There are also "Mercenary Officers" you can talk to at colonies. These, you can hire for a story point (100% bonus XP) and they will stay on with you for a year, for a pretty high monthly cost. Getting them to stay on for another year after that costs another story point (no bonus XP). These officers tend to be high level, but don't level up or count against the officer limit.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Wispborne on August 14, 2020, 01:35:33 PM
This is awesome! Pumped to see creating quests become more accessible.

It was fun/gratifying to see the specific shift from an imperative to a declarative system for the quests; I wrote my own wrapper to make quests declarative already, although yours is, of course, far more accessible and comprehensive.

Spoiler
https://github.com/davidwhitman/Gates-Awakened/blob/master/src/main/kotlin/org/wisp/gatesawakened/midgame/MidgameQuestBeginning.kt

Code
class MidgameQuestBeginning : BarEventDefinition<MidgameQuestBeginning>(
    shouldShowEvent = { Midgame.shouldOfferQuest(it) },
    interactionPrompt = {
        addPara {
            "You spot a familiar tattoo; a grey circle around the eye of a $manOrWoman" +
                    " in the corner of the bar, glowing a faint white. " +
                    "You realize that it looks a bit like a ${mark("Gate")}."
        }
    },
    textToStartInteraction = {
        "Move in for a closer look at the tattooed $manOrWoman's tripad screen."
    },
    onInteractionStarted = {
        planetWithCache = Midgame.planetWithCache!! // Must exist for quest to be offered
    }
.......
[close]

Cool! Yeah, going more declarative seems like very much the way to go. Finding the right balance is tricky, though, but I'm happy with where it's landed. And, yeah, what you've posted looks pretty solid, too. Same general idea, looks like - using a base class with some methods/data members to facilitate a declarative approach.

I'm assuming you're using a language that works on top of a jvm and compiles into Java bytecode? Not identifying offhand what it is - clojure, maybe?


It's Kotlin, a language by JetBrains. You assume correctly; it compiles to java bytecode. It's actually an official language for developing Android apps, quite mature and stable.

Note: Below, I critique some example code from the blog post without full context of the rest of the API. What's more, this is *your* codebase and your project - please feel free to ignore my critique; I have my own baby codebase, I understand and won't be offended.

I do have a question; how much will the order in which you call methods in this new, declarative API matter?

That is, I presume that you must first call beginTrigger(...), then define triggers, and then endTrigger(). Is that the case, and if so, why not add a class to define a trigger so that the order that quest bits are declared doesn't matter (like a Builder pattern)?
eg
Code
beginWithTrigger(
  new HyperspaceRangeTrigger(planet, 1f, false, Stage.GO_TO_RUINS, new TriggerConditions() {
    triggerCreateFleet(FleetSize.MEDIUM, FleetQuality.DEFAULT, Factions.PIRATES);
    triggerSetStandardAggroPirateFlags();
    triggerFleetAllowLongPursuit();
    triggerPickLocationAtInSystemJumpPoint(planet.getStarSystem());
    triggerSpawnFleetAtPickedLocation(“$gada_pirate”, null);
    triggerOrderFleetPatrol(planet);
  }
);

Hmm. Honestly, I'm not sure that syntax is an improvement over having an endTrigger() call. It's an extra line and a bunch of extra syntax that imo reduces clarity - not that there's a *huge* difference.

But I think maybe we're talking about slightly different things. In my approach, you call beginTrigger() and endTrigger() to define a trigger; the various triggerXXXX methods are "what you do within the trigger", not separate triggers, right. The order of those calls may or may not matter depending on what they are, specifically.

Actually - I don't understand what you mean by "so that the order that quest bits are declared [in] doesn't matter". So I think I might just be missing something of what you mean.

I hear your point about clarity and that may be enough of an argument on its own, but I'll explain what I meant.

A method might end up looking something like this, right?

Code
connectWithGlobalFlag(Stage.GO_TO_RUINS, Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, “$gada_gotData”);
connectWithInRangeOfCommRelay(Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, Stage.COMPLETED);
beginWithinHyperspaceRangeTrigger(planet, 1f, false, Stage.GO_TO_RUINS);
triggerCreateFleet(FleetSize.MEDIUM, FleetQuality.DEFAULT, Factions.PIRATES);
triggerOrderFleetPatrol(planet);
endTrigger();
setTimeLimit(Stage.FAILED, MISSION_DAYS);

But it could also look like this, if you are in the mindset of "I just need to declare all of the things for this quest":

Code
connectWithGlobalFlag(Stage.GO_TO_RUINS, Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, “$gada_gotData”);
triggerCreateFleet(FleetSize.MEDIUM, FleetQuality.DEFAULT, Factions.PIRATES);
beginWithinHyperspaceRangeTrigger(planet, 1f, false, Stage.GO_TO_RUINS);
triggerOrderFleetPatrol(planet);
connectWithInRangeOfCommRelay(Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, Stage.COMPLETED);
setTimeLimit(Stage.FAILED, MISSION_DAYS);
endTrigger();

The lines are the same, but I reordered them. Will this fail, due to having triggerCreateFleet(...) before beginWithinHyperspaceRangeTrigger(...)?

In the example I provided, the Kotlin one, you could swap shouldShowEvent and interactionEvent and it wouldn't matter; the point is declaring them, rather the order in which they are declared.

Another benefit of passing a Trigger object to an addTrigger method is that the trigger-specific methods could be scoped to the Trigger object, rather than available anywhere in the quest definition.

A builder is another possibility;
Code
addTrigger(new HyperspaceRangeTriggerBuilder(...)
    .triggerCreateFleet(...,
        new FleetCommandBuilder()
        .orderFleetToPatrol(planet)
    )   
    .triggerCreateFleet(differentFleetParams,
        new FleetCommandBuilder()
        .orderFleetToPatrol(aDifferentPlanet)
    )
    .build()
)

This syntax also allows you to create two fleets with separate order chains (call triggerCreateFleet a second time) from the same trigger event, which I'm not sure how you'd do with the code in the blog post.

Anyway, a good deal of this is personal preference as well. Take what makes sense to you.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Chaos Farseer on August 14, 2020, 01:51:28 PM
.
It might be cool if some contacts could turn into officers for hire, after you have build a rapport with them.

Hmm, perhaps! I'm not sure that it's a useful conversion, though - a contact is generally more valuable than an officer. And if a contact would become some kind of super-officer, then that might encourage farming up contacts for that, and that doesn't seem great.

You mentioned that, if a contact’s system gets decivilized, the contact moves to another system and lose a point of importance. Maybe if the contact gets pushed around to 0 importance, instead of fading away, they ask to join you as an officer? Then you’re not missing out, and it might be a neat narrative tie-in.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 14, 2020, 01:55:31 PM
It's Kotlin, a language by JetBrains. You assume correctly; it compiles to java bytecode. It's actually an official language for developing Android apps, quite mature and stable.

Ah, cool - thanks for explaining!

Spoiler
I hear your point about clarity and that may be enough of an argument on its own, but I'll explain what I meant.

A method might end up looking something like this, right?

Code
connectWithGlobalFlag(Stage.GO_TO_RUINS, Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, “$gada_gotData”);
connectWithInRangeOfCommRelay(Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, Stage.COMPLETED);
beginWithinHyperspaceRangeTrigger(planet, 1f, false, Stage.GO_TO_RUINS);
triggerCreateFleet(FleetSize.MEDIUM, FleetQuality.DEFAULT, Factions.PIRATES);
triggerOrderFleetPatrol(planet);
endTrigger();
setTimeLimit(Stage.FAILED, MISSION_DAYS);

But it could also look like this, if you are in the mindset of "I just need to declare all of the things for this quest":

Code
connectWithGlobalFlag(Stage.GO_TO_RUINS, Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, “$gada_gotData”);
triggerCreateFleet(FleetSize.MEDIUM, FleetQuality.DEFAULT, Factions.PIRATES);
beginWithinHyperspaceRangeTrigger(planet, 1f, false, Stage.GO_TO_RUINS);
triggerOrderFleetPatrol(planet);
connectWithInRangeOfCommRelay(Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, Stage.COMPLETED);
setTimeLimit(Stage.FAILED, MISSION_DAYS);
endTrigger();

The lines are the same, but I reordered them. Will this fail, due to having triggerCreateFleet(...) before beginWithinHyperspaceRangeTrigger(...)?

In the example I provided, the Kotlin one, you could swap shouldShowEvent and interactionEvent and it wouldn't matter; the point is declaring them, rather the order in which they are declared.

Another benefit of passing a Trigger object to an addTrigger method is that the trigger-specific methods could be scoped to the Trigger object, rather than available anywhere in the quest definition.

A builder is another possibility;
Code
addTrigger(new HyperspaceRangeTriggerBuilder(...)
    .triggerCreateFleet(...,
        new FleetCommandBuilder()
        .orderFleetToPatrol(planet)
    )   
    .triggerCreateFleet(differentFleetParams,
        new FleetCommandBuilder()
        .orderFleetToPatrol(aDifferentPlanet)
    )
    .build()
)

This syntax also allows you to create two fleets with separate order chains (call triggerCreateFleet a second time) from the same trigger event, which I'm not sure how you'd do with the code in the blog post.

Anyway, a good deal of this is personal preference as well. Take what makes sense to you.
[close]

Gotcha. I think we're looking at this differently; the requirement that things can be declared in *any* order I don't think is workable for this. For example, you might want to find a planet, then order a fleet to patrol it, etc. Or, like, you might have several different triggers and mixing up their contents is... not a thing you can do. Each of the individual tasks would be done in a declarative-ish fashion, but the ordering very much matters. This isn't a full-on declarative model, right. It's just being that in places where it's painful to do things in a more imperative way.

The way you're doing things - I think it's (at least, to the extent of my understanding) fine! But I also think that it *definitely* requires a much higher degree of coding proficiency to do. All the extra syntax, the anonymous classes that get created, the method calls from those classes, constructor calls with parameters, etc. And I really wanted to have something that I didn't have to think about too hard when either coming back to it after a while, copy/pasting some baseline, or just switching back and forth between that and working on text or some such.

(Edit: I should say, again, thank you for explaining what you meant! I appreciate you taking the time. It sounds to me like we're doing slightly different things or perhaps with slightly different goals, or some such.)

You mentioned that, if a contact’s system gets decivilized, the contact moves to another system and lose a point of importance. Maybe if the contact gets pushed around to 0 importance, instead of fading away, they ask to join you as an officer? Then you’re not missing out, and it might be a neat narrative tie-in.

Yeah, that could be quite fun! Hmm... probably a too-unlikely event for it to come up very often, though, especially at a point where you're not yet maxed on officers.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SCC on August 14, 2020, 02:04:19 PM
I mean, there's a time-honored tradition of playing both sides against each other, so I feel like it only requires a bit of imagination to make it "make sense"! That said, all of this is to me in the category of "you could also use contacts to do <thing>". Which, sure! And it sounds like it could be cool! But the set of things like this is endless, and there are only so many ways I can say that this particular way of applying them didn't happen, and may or may not happen at some point in the future. Like, this is more in the category of a suggestion for another thing to do, and less a critique (which "missed opportunity" kind of implies), if that makes sense.
Then you can take it as a signal that players want commitment to a faction be, well, a commitment, one way or another.

You mentioned that, if a contact’s system gets decivilized, the contact moves to another system and lose a point of importance. Maybe if the contact gets pushed around to 0 importance, instead of fading away, they ask to join you as an officer? Then you’re not missing out, and it might be a neat narrative tie-in.

Yeah, that could be quite fun! Hmm... probably a too-unlikely event for it to come up very often, though, especially at a point where you're not yet maxed on officers.
In that situation, that contact would be a free mercenary, temporary officer, until the contact decides to settle elsewhere (as a contact still, or just fading into obscurity) and leaves your "employ". Or you sack 'em.
Yeah, this is really specific situation overall, especially if the risk of decivilisation has changed in the dev version...
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Wispborne on August 14, 2020, 02:14:16 PM
It's Kotlin, a language by JetBrains. You assume correctly; it compiles to java bytecode. It's actually an official language for developing Android apps, quite mature and stable.

Ah, cool - thanks for explaining!

Spoiler
I hear your point about clarity and that may be enough of an argument on its own, but I'll explain what I meant.

A method might end up looking something like this, right?

Code
connectWithGlobalFlag(Stage.GO_TO_RUINS, Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, “$gada_gotData”);
connectWithInRangeOfCommRelay(Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, Stage.COMPLETED);
beginWithinHyperspaceRangeTrigger(planet, 1f, false, Stage.GO_TO_RUINS);
triggerCreateFleet(FleetSize.MEDIUM, FleetQuality.DEFAULT, Factions.PIRATES);
triggerOrderFleetPatrol(planet);
endTrigger();
setTimeLimit(Stage.FAILED, MISSION_DAYS);

But it could also look like this, if you are in the mindset of "I just need to declare all of the things for this quest":

Code
connectWithGlobalFlag(Stage.GO_TO_RUINS, Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, “$gada_gotData”);
triggerCreateFleet(FleetSize.MEDIUM, FleetQuality.DEFAULT, Factions.PIRATES);
beginWithinHyperspaceRangeTrigger(planet, 1f, false, Stage.GO_TO_RUINS);
triggerOrderFleetPatrol(planet);
connectWithInRangeOfCommRelay(Stage.GET_IN_COMMS_RANGE, Stage.COMPLETED);
setTimeLimit(Stage.FAILED, MISSION_DAYS);
endTrigger();

The lines are the same, but I reordered them. Will this fail, due to having triggerCreateFleet(...) before beginWithinHyperspaceRangeTrigger(...)?

In the example I provided, the Kotlin one, you could swap shouldShowEvent and interactionEvent and it wouldn't matter; the point is declaring them, rather the order in which they are declared.

Another benefit of passing a Trigger object to an addTrigger method is that the trigger-specific methods could be scoped to the Trigger object, rather than available anywhere in the quest definition.

A builder is another possibility;
Code
addTrigger(new HyperspaceRangeTriggerBuilder(...)
    .triggerCreateFleet(...,
        new FleetCommandBuilder()
        .orderFleetToPatrol(planet)
    )   
    .triggerCreateFleet(differentFleetParams,
        new FleetCommandBuilder()
        .orderFleetToPatrol(aDifferentPlanet)
    )
    .build()
)

This syntax also allows you to create two fleets with separate order chains (call triggerCreateFleet a second time) from the same trigger event, which I'm not sure how you'd do with the code in the blog post.

Anyway, a good deal of this is personal preference as well. Take what makes sense to you.
[close]

Gotcha. I think we're looking at this differently; the requirement that things can be declared in *any* order I don't think is workable for this. For example, you might want to find a planet, then order a fleet to patrol it, etc. Or, like, you might have several different triggers and mixing up their contents is... not a thing you can do. Each of the individual tasks would be done in a declarative-ish fashion, but the ordering very much matters. This isn't a full-on declarative model, right. It's just being that in places where it's painful to do things in a more imperative way.

The way you're doing things - I think it's (at least, to the extent of my understanding) fine! But I also think that it *definitely* requires a much higher degree of coding proficiency to do. All the extra syntax, the anonymous classes that get created, the method calls from those classes, constructor calls with parameters, etc. And I really wanted to have something that I didn't have to think about too hard when either coming back to it after a while, copy/pasting some baseline, or just switching back and forth between that and working on text or some such.

(Edit: I should say, again, thank you for explaining what you meant! I appreciate you taking the time. It sounds to me like we're doing slightly different things or perhaps with slightly different goals, or some such.)

Thanks for taking the time to listen! What you said makes a lot of sense. I'm used to a very different type of coding environment and different use cases for said code.

Again, I'm looking forward to seeing the final update. One of my biggest complaints with writing quests today is that I needed to read and understand most of the code in your superclasses before I could properly implement the subclass, and it looks like that's being completed addressed. Great job.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: pairedeciseaux on August 14, 2020, 03:36:54 PM
Part of what is exciting about all of this - at least to me - is that it makes this piece of the content pipeline a lot easier for me to use efficiently. More content made faster = game done faster!

Getting a productivity boost thanks to improved framework and/or tooling is always welcome. Looking forward to play the new missions/stories both you and Alex will deliver in the next release!

Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 14, 2020, 03:44:07 PM
Then you can take it as a signal that players want commitment to a faction be, well, a commitment, one way or another.

Fair enough!


Thanks for taking the time to listen! What you said makes a lot of sense. I'm used to a very different type of coding environment and different use cases for said code.

Again, I'm looking forward to seeing the final update. One of my biggest complaints with writing quests today is that I needed to read and understand most of the code in your superclasses before I could properly implement the subclass, and it looks like that's being completed addressed. Great job.

Well, you might still need to do some of that, to figure out what methods are actually there! But hopefully there would be an abundance of samples to copy/paste from (with all the new missions), and perhaps more importantly, you wouldn't need to worry about the implementation details but more just what's there. Which I guess is what you're saying!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SafariJohn on August 14, 2020, 06:00:42 PM
There are other places where such a non-code approach could be good: for example star system definition (unless I'm mistaken, those require Java code).

I am a programmer and I hate doing star systems. I have to do several for one of my mods right now and my productivity is low low low. Even a really basic GUI tool to lay out a system and generate the code for it would be a huge help.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: errorgance on August 14, 2020, 07:35:01 PM
I like the idea of there being more to hyperspace transmissions and there being something to limit transmissions to make them more infrequent, perhaps make them lore wise semi-secure, say the signal is broadcast in all directions for all to hear,  sure you can encrypt your transmission, but someone with a high enough level AI core (or enough of them!) can de-crypt your message, eventually.
It's all about the amount of effort someones willing to dedicate to you. So say If a faction really hates YOU you can expect the occasional fleet to intercept/ambush/trail you while on missions near their factions space. Having a gamma or beta level AI core encryption will help to dissuade low and mid level attempts to de-crypt your signals. of course alpha levels of High level encryption/decryption are very much indeed yes highly illegal but very effective at encrypting signals, to the point where attempts will sometimes de-crypt into insulting messages instead of the original. Sufficient AI level of encryption may be a requisite for some paranoid contacts to accept calls.

I like the idea of intergalactic hyperspace bandwidth being limited/crowded and have associated costs, after all, Bandwidth isn't free, there should be a cost to making calls, think calling collect, both ways, each party is charged by their local relay holder. thus a call had better be important and if they don't know you, they wont take the call, so there's no point in calling people out of the blue.
Having a sufficiently high/low rep with a faction could incur increase/decrease call costs, or being outright banned from use of their relays if low enough, (unless you install a sniffer) free calls should be a perk for taking a commission.

also, I'd like to suggest something other than the proximity to the relay determining if you can use them, as this could be odd in situations when inhabited planets are far away enough they shouldn't be able to use their relay.

how about make "live" calls impossible at high relative velocities/speed? you could be calling from anywhere in system, but your fleet must be traveling at a sufficiently low speed (and not in blackout) in order to have a live conversation.
max live comms speed could also be improved by keeping say an AI core around to help compensate for higher speeds, Gama's will compensate your connection a little, beta's more, and alpha will just impersonate you, rather than compensate at even higher speeds, though your not sure why your contacts sometimes seem a bit amused at your appearance.


also, got an idea for an outlaw mission idea, hack a relay so calls are automatically received, then call this person...
...repeatedly.
give plenty of funny dialog options.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SonnaBanana on August 14, 2020, 08:59:32 PM


also, got an idea for an outlaw mission idea, hack a relay so calls are automatically received, then call this person...
...repeatedly.
give plenty of funny dialog options.

Yes yes yes, not just for pirates but also for TT and Sinedrians too!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: FooF on August 15, 2020, 10:53:55 AM
The call feature is turning into something more than I intended. The reference was an MMO that allowed you to get missions for the team without having to travel to the contact. Time was simply more important in that setting because you're wasting 2-8 people's time instead of just your own. It was a simple QoL improvement. If it doesn't work because physical objects have to be exchanged, so be it: all that was ever given in the MMO was information. I suppose if you could reach out to Contacts in Starsector to see what the mission is (and whether it was "worth it" to meet and accept the mission), that could be of some value but doing a bunch of work-arounds to shoehorn another game's system into this one may be more trouble than its worth!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 15, 2020, 12:05:06 PM
To be honest, I'm coming to about the same conclusion - it's an interesting idea, and it sounds like fun, but I'm not sure it fits. I do like the idea of using comm relays actively for something, but then if it was too useful, you'd feel like you had to deploy makeshift ones all over the place, and... this is a rabbit hole I probably shouldn't fall down just now.

(Side note, "feature most likely to be overlooked", I think, is the ability to add stable locations by interacting with a star...)
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SCC on August 15, 2020, 12:25:00 PM
If you want to make comm relays useful, then maybe add an option to call for back-up from your faction, a friendly faction, or from your contact. Most of the time you would be asking for some fuel, but hey, maybe you're stuck in a high danger system? Or maybe you visited such a system, went a comm relay with some fuel and now you can call Remnants for a "replay 2020" option for disrupting systems or whatnot.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Arbitrated on August 15, 2020, 12:55:50 PM
RE: Officers effecting DP

I really like this idea mechanically (promotes actually having officers in the early game, instead of spamming ships and thinking about officers later down the line). What I like more, though, is that this makes DP feel more like your character's limit on how well they can control their own fleet. That is - even if you're not "giving orders", you're still managing every ship in your fleet during a battle - receiving reports of damage, PPT, their sensors detecting enemies, how many missiles they have, the status of their armor, how much flux is built up, their positions, etc. etc. etc.

An officer in a ship basically handles all those reports for you, which means you don't need to worry/pay attention to that ship, letting you deploy more ship(s) into combat. I guess in theory this means that an Ops center should lower the DP cost of the ship it's on or something but I'm not here to get into semantics about stuff like that...


RE: AI cores impersonating people.

It's funny how so many suggestions here have talked about Beta cores making "fake humans" in a sense of being still somewhat clearly an AI core, when the flavor text actually says that Beta cores can perfectly imitate a human with a bit of training. (Also, the flavor text for alpha cores talks about how they're straight up capable of making artwork, music, etc. and have been typically put to work by the Domain and/or Hegemony under the most strict supervision... Which makes me feel sad for those not so little blue balls...)


I appreciate, a lot, that there's still going to be "general missions" that show up without having to visit a contact, since I love following those in the early game for some quick cash! <3  Something somewhat related to the topic of contacts letting you get custom production in: Is there any chance for a minor rebalance to the frequency of certain ships showing up or being available? I went searching for an Odyssey to buy from the League, who IIRC is the only known supplier of them, and they had EIGHT FREAKING CONQUESTS (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/477235340286099477/742549648866148542/unknown.png) for sale. Also, tangenting here, is there any potential for another capital ship to be added soon? As it stands, there's a bit of a variety problem since three of the eight vanilla factions (think I got them all) use, almost exclusively, the Conquest as their factional capital ship.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SCC on August 15, 2020, 12:58:57 PM
Actually Persean League doesn't have Odysseys, it's Tri-Tachyon only.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Serenitis on August 15, 2020, 02:04:12 PM
Actually Persean League doesn't have Odysseys, it's Tri-Tachyon only.
Odyssey does appear in the League faction file, but only as a priority setting. The hull isn't known so it doesn't do anything.
The Diktat definitely has access to Odyssey though.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: intrinsic_parity on August 15, 2020, 02:57:36 PM
I'm pretty sure TT sells odysseys, its just that their faction priorities are carriers and phase ships so you almost never seem them.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Megas on August 15, 2020, 03:36:46 PM
(Side note, "feature most likely to be overlooked", I think, is the ability to add stable locations by interacting with a star...)
I do not remember the costs you gave, but if it eats a story point (without bonus XP) or burns out an alpha core, I doubt I would use it unless I find a great system I want to colonize but it does not have a stable location.  (I found few such systems in previous playthroughs.)
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Morrokain on August 15, 2020, 05:06:33 PM
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but the blog post is really interesting!

I like the ability to personalize characters and provide more specific high level rewards based upon the contact system's scaling. Some very cool things for modders to do have resulted from this update's changes as well it seems!

I'll be looking forward to delving into the details upon release. I'm already thinking of things I can do with this!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SCC on August 16, 2020, 01:26:27 AM
I'm pretty sure TT sells odysseys, its just that their faction priorities are carriers and phase ships so you almost never seem them.
Odyssey does appear in the League faction file, but only as a priority setting. The hull isn't known so it doesn't do anything.
The Diktat definitely has access to Odyssey though.
Diktat never uses Odyssey, because it isn't prioritised whereas Conquest is, and since they're both warships, whenever fleet generation asks for a capital warship, it will always (or, at least, so often it's negligible) pick the prioritised ship, Conquest-class.
The same is true for TT, because Paragon is prioritised and Odyssey isn't...
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Gothars on August 17, 2020, 09:06:45 AM

It might be cool if some contacts could turn into officers for hire, after you have build a rapport with them.

Hmm, perhaps! I'm not sure that it's a useful conversion, though - a contact is generally more valuable than an officer. And if a contact would become some kind of super-officer, then that might encourage farming up contacts for that, and that doesn't seem great.

Mh, yeah. I was thinking less in terms of mechanics and more along the lines of storytelling, flavor and having officers with an actual in-game history. So, maybe that's more something that could happen as part of actual story-missions.

Now that I think about it, though, a way that this could work mechanically is if some high level contacts were hireable as officers - but would still remain contacts. Like a liaison officer. Then you'd carry your contact around with you and would always be able to get certain missions. The bar encounter could be replaced with "Have a drink with..." in the officer tab.

Maybe you could use an AI core to simulate a quest givers personality for a while. And since the personality copy was uploaded while at dock, it still believes itself to be there and thus gives you the same texts.

Have you been reading Alastair Reynolds recently? :) The whole "beta personality simulation" thing and so on...

That was quite some time ago, but it might have influenced the thought:)
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 17, 2020, 12:01:15 PM
Mh, yeah. I was thinking less in terms of mechanics and more along the lines of storytelling, flavor and having officers with an actual in-game history. So, maybe that's more something that could happen as part of actual story-missions.

Now that I think about it, though, a way that this could work mechanically is if some high level contacts were hireable as officers - but would still remain contacts. Like a liaison officer. Then you'd carry your contact around with you and would always be able to get certain missions. The bar encounter could be replaced with "Have a drink with..." in the officer tab.

Yeah, officers that are special characters could be interesting. I guess sort of like M&B-style companions?

As far as hiring contacts as officers - I think I get what you're saying, but I don't think the details work. It seems like most of the contacts you make wouldn't *want* to do that - an underworld arms dealer, a senior Tri-Tach executive, a Hegemony colony admin. And even then, a lot of missions wouldn't make sense in a "have a drink with..." scenario. "And by the way, captian, I've got a surplus Onslaught I can sell you for below market value..." - that sort of thing. Only a small subset of missions where it's framed as the contact passing along info rather than giving you a job might work. And even then the writing - or the mechanical details - might not make sense.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Steven Shi on August 17, 2020, 07:12:06 PM
This sounds great for modders to inject new quest/missions which devs will never have the resources to be able to fill a game with. As far as contacts are concerned, it's too much like filling up a relationship bar doing generic fetch quest in RPG in order to get harder quest/missions. Personally, I prefer a more organic mission delivery system like finding a distressed farmer at a bar or a spacer in trouble in the middle of a space storm which leads on to more branching options (or none). The job board approach is nice as fillers but it sounds as exciting as a job board in real life tbh.

Oh, when you said you worried the old approach might flood the player with too many job openings, why don't you put a slider filter on the reward to weed out the small fries once the player fleet gets big enough? Would it matter if the game has multiple job offer mechanics and don't rely on contacts alone?
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SonnaBanana on August 18, 2020, 06:32:46 AM
Will contacts from other factions pop up on player colonies?
What officer levels do Gamma/Beta/Alpha cores have when they're used on player's automated ships (for DP-shifting)?
Will underworld contacts (eventually) reward players with sniffer-less intel gathering? Can they disrupt industries as reward?
Will trade contacts give tariff reductions?
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Lorant on August 18, 2020, 07:33:31 PM
I'm super stoked for this. Anything that makes my pilot more of their own entity in the perseus sector with their own stakes and interests as opposed to a personal avatar of antimatter fueled destruction is fantastic.

Also, Alex, an aspect of the dev diaries I've always appreciated is you laying out your thought process and why you've decided to make things the way they are. Thanks for sticking with this project. You and the modding scene have made a very, very special thing here.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 19, 2020, 03:48:11 PM
Oh, when you said you worried the old approach might flood the player with too many job openings, why don't you put a slider filter on the reward to weed out the small fries once the player fleet gets big enough? Would it matter if the game has multiple job offer mechanics and don't rely on contacts alone?

That still doesn't scale unless you also filter by the type of thing it is. I mean, ideally there wouldn't be that many small-fry missions to begin with! The issue is that even when all the missions are *potentially* interesting to the player, the subset of the *actually* interesting ones - given their current preferences etc - is considerably smaller.


Will contacts from other factions pop up on player colonies?

Underworld ones will! I think.

What officer levels do Gamma/Beta/Alpha cores have when they're used on player's automated ships (for DP-shifting)?

Whatever level is appropriate based on the number of skills they have. So, from a bit below regular officers, to a bit above.

Will underworld contacts (eventually) reward players with sniffer-less intel gathering? Can they disrupt industries as reward?
Will trade contacts give tariff reductions?

No and no. I'm not sure why these would be desirable, tbh - they seem like trivializing other mechanics, and that's usually not a great direction to go.



Also, Alex, an aspect of the dev diaries I've always appreciated is you laying out your thought process and why you've decided to make things the way they are. Thanks for sticking with this project. You and the modding scene have made a very, very special thing here.

Ahh, thank you! Re: laying out the thought process, that's what I would personally find interesting to see, so I'm glad that resonates. The "why" seems so much more important/interesting than the baseline "what"! And then knowing the reasoning also makes, I think, for a more substantive discussion.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Morrokain on August 21, 2020, 03:54:19 PM
It doesn't, though I might remove the basic Procurement mission, since it gets pretty much duplicated by the contact stuff. But Analyze/Survey missions and bounties are I think in a good place - the surface-level stuff anyone has access too, and then you can dig into contacts as well.

Imo I'd save yourself the time. I think the basic Procurement mission is fine as a duplicate of bar missions. A change I'd welcome to that would be to remove the 20 days value from the timeframe options to deliver as it usually means the mission can't be completed - or at least it can't without an error margin of 0. I tend to ignore them if I see 20 days as the timeframe.

Mh, yeah. I was thinking less in terms of mechanics and more along the lines of storytelling, flavor and having officers with an actual in-game history. So, maybe that's more something that could happen as part of actual story-missions.

Now that I think about it, though, a way that this could work mechanically is if some high level contacts were hireable as officers - but would still remain contacts. Like a liaison officer. Then you'd carry your contact around with you and would always be able to get certain missions. The bar encounter could be replaced with "Have a drink with..." in the officer tab.

Yeah, officers that are special characters could be interesting. I guess sort of like M&B-style companions?

This would be a fantastic feature to have and has been on my list of wants for a while. Really, just simply a way to open a rules dialogue plugin through the officer screen would be amazing and this would be the perfect use case for it. Then you could have interesting situations where a mission from a planetside contact has an intermediary encounter with one of your officers. The amount of life that would breathe into the sector would be considerable. It also makes officers feel more like personalities within your crew outside of combat instead of stat bonuses with a portrait.

Contact type tags could be worked into the hire stats like skills so you know which kinds of missions or interactions you are likely to get from that officer.

As a more concrete example, one of your officers has the "science" tag. While investigating a derelict probe, instead of a small text blurb about a nearby planet with decent resources, you could be given an intel item that says "Science Officer X wants to speak with you."

After clicking conversation button in the officer screen, the officer excitedly tells you about his/her find in the nearby system after analyzing the probe's data banks and a new intel item/mission is available - it can either be accepted directly from the dialogue or you can tell them "you'll think about it" or something like that and it remains in the intel.

Now, this example is one where you have an existing feature where you "break one link of the chain" and insert a cool dialogue encounter between the two ends, but the idea is that the plugin would be flexible enough to have a lot of different use cases. It may seem like a small thing to add, but the difference between the two experience from the perspective of the player would be notable, I'd think. It certainly would to me.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Gothars on August 22, 2020, 05:51:50 PM
Quote
In addition to tags, a contact also has an “importance” – a measure of how influential they are within the hierarchy of whatever organization they belong to. There are 5 levels of importance, from “very low” to “very high”. For example, a low importance trade contact would offer missions involving smaller quantities of cheaper commodities. A high importance trade contact, on the other hand… let’s just say you might need an Atlas freighter or two. Or even a colony.

Does that mean that in early game I want to make low-importance contacts with relatively easy jobs to offer, but later I have to break up with them to get new high level contacts/jobs?

Never being able to keep friends seems a little sad! Would it not be great if contacts could also advance in importance, at least if you help them out a bunch?

I'd rather have other reasons to break up with contacs, for example some selling me out and sending me into traps...:D
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 22, 2020, 06:30:50 PM
This would be a fantastic feature to have and has been on my list of wants for a while. Really, just simply a way to open a rules dialogue plugin through the officer screen would be amazing and this would be the perfect use case for it. Then you could have interesting situations where a mission from a planetside contact has an intermediary encounter with one of your officers. The amount of life that would breathe into the sector would be considerable. It also makes officers feel more like personalities within your crew outside of combat instead of stat bonuses with a portrait.

Contact type tags could be worked into the hire stats like skills so you know which kinds of missions or interactions you are likely to get from that officer.

As a more concrete example, one of your officers has the "science" tag. While investigating a derelict probe, instead of a small text blurb about a nearby planet with decent resources, you could be given an intel item that says "Science Officer X wants to speak with you."

After clicking conversation button in the officer screen, the officer excitedly tells you about his/her find in the nearby system after analyzing the probe's data banks and a new intel item/mission is available - it can either be accepted directly from the dialogue or you can tell them "you'll think about it" or something like that and it remains in the intel.

Now, this example is one where you have an existing feature where you "break one link of the chain" and insert a cool dialogue encounter between the two ends, but the idea is that the plugin would be flexible enough to have a lot of different use cases. It may seem like a small thing to add, but the difference between the two experience from the perspective of the player would be notable, I'd think. It certainly would to me.

That particular flow... I think it's way too complicated. The issue/main effort with these kinds of things is creating enough content for them to be worthwhile, and having that kind of involved structure makes that task more complicated. You could already to something like this, though - have a new intel item pop up based on whatever events happening, and have that item be a mission offered by your officer or w/e. So what I'm saying is mods can more or less do this already.

Does that mean that in early game I want to make low-importance contacts with relatively easy jobs to offer, but later I have to break up with them to get new high level contacts/jobs?

Never being able to keep friends seems a little sad! Would it not be great if contacts could also advance in importance, at least if you help them out a bunch?

I'd rather have other reasons to break up with contacs, for example some selling me out and sending me into traps...:D

If you have a high-importance contact, they'll give you easy missions early on, since relationship is basically like an importance cap. And you can always spend a story point to add an extra high-importance contact, instead of dumping a high-relationship lower importance one. If the relationship is advanced enough, that may be worthwhile. Or you can "suspend contact", putting them on ice for a while but not losing them completely.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Gothars on August 22, 2020, 07:09:26 PM
Ah, so high importance contacts are straight out better and if possible I only want to befriend those from the start? Does that also mean that having relationship 3 with an importance 2 contact still only gives level 2 missions?

Mhhh, seems like the importance system might be a little... superflous?
Well, except if high level contacts are meant to be this super rare, special thing that you are really happy to find. Maybe I'm just really overestimating contact density/ underestimating time needed for relation level devlopment here.

Btw., can you actually lose status wirh a contact when you fail their missions?

And another thought: imagine how cool it would be if a high relationship contact might show up personally if you send out a distress call^^
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Morrokain on August 22, 2020, 08:32:44 PM
That particular flow... I think it's way too complicated. The issue/main effort with these kinds of things is creating enough content for them to be worthwhile, and having that kind of involved structure makes that task more complicated. You could already to something like this, though - have a new intel item pop up based on whatever events happening, and have that item be a mission offered by your officer or w/e. So what I'm saying is mods can more or less do this already.

That is fair, yeah. It certainly does add complexity.

I was hoping for some kind of framework for this and a streamlined UI button that corresponded with the officer screen, but as long as it's possible then I'll try and figure it out eventually. Thanks for the reply.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 22, 2020, 08:55:54 PM
Ah, so high importance contacts are straight out better and if possible I only want to befriend those from the start? Does that also mean that having relationship 3 with an importance 2 contact still only gives level 2 missions?

IIRC the mission quality (which influences the overall value of a mission, i.e. a "procure commodity" mission would ask for a greater quantity, etc) can get a bit beyond the contact's importance, but if a mission's availability has a hard cutoff based on importance, iirc that wouldn't show up.

Mhhh, seems like the importance system might be a little... superflous?
Well, except if high level contacts are meant to be this super rare, special thing that you are really happy to find. Maybe I'm just really overestimating contact density/ underestimating time needed for relation level devlopment here.

You're probably not going to be swimming in "very high" importance contacts, no. That said, you're probably going to want to stick to the higher-importance contacts overall. It's very much something I want to keep an eye on and also see how it feels in more dedicated playtesting. One idea is perhaps that having lower-importance contacts is required to get higher importance ones, or some such... the "how you get contacts" is an area of the system that's probably the most likely to see some changes/additions, though we'll see.

Btw., can you actually lose status wirh a contact when you fail their missions?

Yeah. And with their faction, too. Though the losses are usually lower than the gains from completing the same mission.

And another thought: imagine how cool it would be if a high relationship contact might show up personally if you send out a distress call^^

Hah! An arms dealer shows up - "you're too good a client to perish out here, your credits are feeding my family!"
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SonnaBanana on August 23, 2020, 12:20:53 AM
How will reputation with a faction influence interactions with contacts from that faction?
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: FooF on August 23, 2020, 08:38:40 PM
You're probably not going to be swimming in "very high" importance contacts, no. That said, you're probably going to want to stick to the higher-importance contacts overall. It's very much something I want to keep an eye on and also see how it feels in more dedicated playtesting. One idea is perhaps that having lower-importance contacts is required to get higher importance ones, or some such... the "how you get contacts" is an area of the system that's probably the most likely to see some changes/additions, though we'll see.

I think it only makes sense for Contacts lower on the ladder to introduce you to more important ones up the same chain. In fact, outside of randomly saving a high-importance Contact, why would these higher-ups having anything to do with you without some kind of bridge? I guess your reputation could precede you...

Perhaps that's a way of combining Contact acquisition with faction-wide reputation? The higher your faction rep is, the more likely a more important Contact within that faction will reach out. Since it's possible to raise faction rep outside of Contacts, the player has another avenue of getting decent Contact status if they don't grind Contacts from the start.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Piemanlives on August 24, 2020, 06:43:36 AM
I have been waiting for this moment for years now.

Finally personal relationships matter.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Gothars on August 24, 2020, 07:23:22 AM

It's very much something I want to keep an eye on and also see how it feels in more dedicated playtesting. One idea is perhaps that having lower-importance contacts is required to get higher importance ones, or some such... the "how you get contacts" is an area of the system that's probably the most likely to see some changes/additions, though we'll see.

You could have a local (per faction) reputation, where the game builds a single score of how you are liked by patrol captains, harbor masters and merchants and such in a system. Explorers you meet could also contribute to the opinion about you back in their home system.  Those individual reputations are already in place after all, but don't lead to anything. With a low level system reputation you only meet low level contacts, but their good opinion of you also contributes to a higher score.
Only then, when your local reputation increases, your chance of meeting high level contacts also increases.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Xeno056 on August 24, 2020, 09:30:57 PM
Glad to see we're getting lots of story and exploration stuff the next update. I especially can't wait to see what other types of megastructure stuff might be out there. Also going back a bit a Light high-tech cruiser is great. Not really my cup of tea, but it's new and something you don't really see in ship packs mods even. Really psyched for that. And story missions oh, the story missions. I've been waiting, and hoping. Mostly for more immersion into this universe you've made, and a little for the missions not just being slammed against a wall of [REDACTED] ships like the two we have. I'm bad a combat lololol.
 
So were is the next update in terms of development if I might ask? I know it's kinda taboo to ask for a timeline but knowing how far along stuff is nitty-gritty wise would be nice. Seems to me that features are set, art is (probably?) done, and now comes the coding. Most of what you mentioned in this blog is story and mission stuff, though what about the other stuff? Obviously, if there isn't a good or easy answer then that's fine as well. We appreciate you Alex.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 25, 2020, 12:33:28 PM
How will reputation with a faction influence interactions with contacts from that faction?

Currently, it won't. Or, put another way, having contacts and doing work for them is a good way to get back in the good grace of a faction if you have a falling-out.

I think it only makes sense for Contacts lower on the ladder to introduce you to more important ones up the same chain. In fact, outside of randomly saving a high-importance Contact, why would these higher-ups having anything to do with you without some kind of bridge? I guess your reputation could precede you...

Perhaps that's a way of combining Contact acquisition with faction-wide reputation? The higher your faction rep is, the more likely a more important Contact within that faction will reach out. Since it's possible to raise faction rep outside of Contacts, the player has another avenue of getting decent Contact status if they don't grind Contacts from the start.

Hmm, yeah. The idea of using the current faction reputation to gate contact acquisition is I think an interesting one.


You could have a local (per faction) reputation, where the game builds a single score of how you are liked by patrol captains, harbor masters and merchants and such in a system. Explorers you meet could also contribute to the opinion about you back in their home system.  Those individual reputations are already in place after all, but don't lead to anything. With a low level system reputation you only meet low level contacts, but their good opinion of you also contributes to a higher score.
Only then, when your local reputation increases, your chance of meeting high level contacts also increases.

Having anything like this be "local" I think creates more problems than it solves. You need to present this info to the player, first of all. Which, alright, that's probably doable. But then this - a local reputation - becomes a mechanic the player actively engages with, and there's not nearly enough content to make that worthwhile. So then you add a ton of content here, and... that's looking more and more like mirroring the contacts system. Basically, the minor rep changes with patrol commanders and whatnot are just there for flavor. They're not "in place" in a mechanically meaningful way, if that makes sense. If anything, I think it's probably more reasonable to remove those rep changes (since they admittedly do seem to point players in a direction that there isn't anything in) than to build something up around them.

To put another way, if one wants a local reputation mechanic that ties into contact acquisition, it'd make sense to step back and consider it as its own thing, not as, say, "expanding" those patrol interactions etc. There's just nothing there to really expand.


So were is the next update in terms of development if I might ask? I know it's kinda taboo to ask for a timeline but knowing how far along stuff is nitty-gritty wise would be nice. Seems to me that features are set, art is (probably?) done, and now comes the coding. Most of what you mentioned in this blog is story and mission stuff, though what about the other stuff? Obviously, if there isn't a good or easy answer then that's fine as well. We appreciate you Alex.

Hmm. In broad strokes, much of the story mission *writing* is done, but much of the implementation isn't, so that's the bulk of what's left, along with whatever tweaks etc are needed to make it all work. Then there's playtesting. And a pass over the long-term TODO list which includes modding features/QoL stuff/etc, picking off whatever is either quick and easy or particularly important. Along with a few loose ends, that's more or less the sum total of what's left to do prior to the next release.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Tartiflette on August 26, 2020, 12:51:18 AM
Interesting, I'll stand by my late February 2021 bet for the release.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: intrinsic_parity on August 26, 2020, 11:06:05 AM
It seems like the players relationship with the contact themselves would be a natural way to gate contact acquisition.

I guess that begs a question: are contacts generated when you go to the bar/see the mission, and deleted if you don't choose to make them a contact? Or is there some underlying list of contacts that already exist that you have a chance of meeting?
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on August 26, 2020, 11:15:31 AM
I guess that begs a question: are contacts generated when you go to the bar/see the mission, and deleted if you don't choose to make them a contact? Or is there some underlying list of contacts that already exist that you have a chance of meeting?

Yes.

(To clarify: the people you see in the comm directory now, you can end up meeting in a bar, getting a job from them, and them becoming a contact. This depends on the type of job it is/whether its appropriate for that kind of person. If a mission is generated and there's no suitable existing person, then a new one is created/deleted if it's not accepted.)
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Schwartz on August 26, 2020, 11:31:04 AM
Nice. This is exactly the kind of thing I have been waiting for. More emergent storytelling "meat". Do these missions have an impact, i.e. if you do enough missions, is it possible to weaken a colony or faction in the mid-term or to force a war or a peace treaty between two? Because I see that as the missing link. Storytelling will take off once the player realizes that what used to be random events in the game now actually emerge or are influenced as a result of the choices he makes.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: intrinsic_parity on August 26, 2020, 11:43:27 AM
I guess that begs a question: are contacts generated when you go to the bar/see the mission, and deleted if you don't choose to make them a contact? Or is there some underlying list of contacts that already exist that you have a chance of meeting?

Yes.

(To clarify: the people you see in the comm directory now, you can end up meeting in a bar, getting a job from them, and them becoming a contact. This depends on the type of job it is/whether its appropriate for that kind of person. If a mission is generated and there's no suitable existing person, then a new one is created/deleted if it's not accepted.)

In that case, my suggestion would be to make those people have a default/base relationship value equal to the faction relationship, and then have your interactions with them doing missions raise or lower that relationship from the baseline. Then you can base all sorts of things on that relationship including a relationship threshold required to add them as a contact (rather than using the overall faction relationship).

That seems natural and fairly simple to me, and it could easily lead to other more complicated interactions like remote mission acquisition requiring a high relationship, having access to ship yards/military markets be based on the local commander relationship etc. You could also 'tie in' less significant people like patrol captains by making interactions with them affect your relationships with their superior directly rather than giving them all individual relationships (i.e. getting caught smuggling is -5 rep with the station commander directly, and helping out a random dude in the outer rim might give you a +5 with some independent station commander somewhere).

This also ties in naturally to requests for some significance to your choice of faction because contacts from hostile factions will have a lower base relationship that you need to overcome to maintain good standing, but it still allows the player to maintain good standing locally while being hostile to faction which seems like a cool possible interaction.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Zelnik on September 01, 2020, 01:15:22 PM
I am currently guilty of checking the forums for a new update release every day now. Stop torturing us!
Title: Re: Re.: Personal Contacts
Post by: Gothars on September 18, 2020, 11:33:22 AM


   Deployment point distribution between opposing fleets now based primarily on number/level of officers
      Is no longer updated as ships are destroyed; only computed once when an engagement round starts
      Officer contribution does not depend on what type of ship they're in
         But they do have to be on a ship, unassigned officers do not contribute


A thought: Maybe unassigned officers could be auto-assigned during deployment? A big limit to the usefulness of frigates is the limited numbers of officers, combined with the fact that the officer combat bonus are much more effective on bigger ships. That promts you to use them mostly on your biggest ships. If an unassigned officer was auto-assigned to the first officer-less ship deployed, you could use that to have him in a cruiser in some hard battle, and in a frigate during the next lighter light engagement without the hassle of manual reassignment.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on September 18, 2020, 12:17:14 PM
Interesting thought! Seems like it'd be hard to keep track, though. And you might have to do odd deployments like "this one cruiser, THEN a bunch of other stuff" to make sure you got exactly what you wanted. Manual reassignment is a bit of a pain, yes, but this seems like it'd also be a pain but in another way.

Stepping back, though - conceptually, I think it's better for officers to generally be assigned to a specific ship, instead of having a fleet of a bunch of different ships for every occasion with officers transferring between them. It's less hassle all around, right - neither transferring officers nor having to figure out what gets auto-assigned how when you deploy. And having officers be associated with a specific ship just feels more right to me.

I'm pretty confident that frigates will be useful in the next release, regardless - it'd be surprising if your 8-10 best ships didn't include one or two of them. Not only do several fleetwide skills have less of an effect when they affect too many deployment points worth of ships, but - why would you have, say, 10 Paragons or some such? It's technically the most power, but you can't deploy that all at the same time anyway, and they don't help for determining deployment points any more than having those officers in other ships would. In fact, if you have those frigates cap something, you'd come out ahead deployment points wise.

And when you consider that frigates/destroyers will provide bonuses to your *other* deployed ships (via some officer skills - Gunnery Implants provides an EW bonus when in a frigate/destroyer - larger bonus in a frigate, and via Coordinated Maneuvers)... And, also, it's possible to boost peak time - both specifically for frigates, in by flat amounts that matter more for frigates. And the EW skill gives a flat bonus instead of it varying by ship size. I think there are *a lot* of different factors working together here - some of them making frigates better, but more importantly, other factors making them into more of a force multiplier.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Thaago on September 18, 2020, 12:32:11 PM
...

I'm pretty confident that frigates will be useful in the next release, regardless - it'd be surprising if your 8-10 best ships didn't include one or two of them. Not only do several fleetwide skills have less of an effect when they affect too many deployment points worth of ships, but - why would you have, say, 10 Paragons or some such? It's technically the most power, but you can't deploy that all at the same time anyway, and they don't help for determining deployment points any more than having those officers in other ships would. In fact, if you have those frigates cap something, you'd come out ahead deployment points wise.

And when you consider that frigates/destroyers will provide bonuses to your *other* deployed ships (via some officer skills - Gunnery Implants provides an EW bonus when in a frigate/destroyer - larger bonus in a frigate, and via Coordinated Maneuvers)... And, also, it's possible to boost peak time - both specifically for frigates, in by flat amounts that matter more for frigates. And the EW skill gives a flat bonus instead of it varying by ship size. I think there are *a lot* of different factors working together here - some of them making frigates better, but more importantly, other factors making them into more of a force multiplier.

Speaking of deployment points and small ship usefulness, is there a particular battle size that you've been thinking/testing against for the skills? It seems like most effects scale, but at the end of the day larger battle size will favor larger ships, driving the fixed number of officers into larger classes.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Alex on September 18, 2020, 12:48:00 PM
I generally have it set to 300 and that's the "primarily intended/target battle size". Things will be a bit different with it set low or high, yeah, but I don't think to the extent of, say, making frigates useless. With 200 DP (40% of 500; assuming an endgame fight where you're going to start out down in DP almost no matter what), you can still only deploy, what, 3-4 capitals. And if you have 300 DP, that's... still enough for *some* variety - or, rather, enough that you can't fit only caps in there. And going all caps does give up on a potential slew of fleetwide bonuses.

I do wonder if max battlesize should be turned down to 400 by default, though - I think that range makes more sense with all the other changes. Since with objectives, the maximum total is 120% of the max - 60% for each side.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: SafariJohn on September 18, 2020, 05:35:58 PM
Stepping back, though - conceptually, I think it's better for officers to generally be assigned to a specific ship, instead of having a fleet of a bunch of different ships for every occasion with officers transferring between them. It's less hassle all around, right - neither transferring officers nor having to figure out what gets auto-assigned how when you deploy. And having officers be associated with a specific ship just feels more right to me.

You heard it here first! Mercenary officers will bring their own ships! But can't be transferred!
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Satirical on September 21, 2020, 12:36:45 AM
Reminds me of the mod Starship legends for starsector where the longer u keep a officer in a ship the better the ship performs because the ship is more loyal or whatever the crew likes them more

Edit: Btw cant wait to hire the ISS Black Star as an Mercenary Officer XD Would be epic if they came with their own customized ship too
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: fellabrando on October 01, 2020, 05:38:58 PM
Reminds me of the mod Starship legends for starsector where the longer u keep a officer in a ship the better the ship performs because the ship is more loyal or whatever the crew likes them more

Edit: Btw cant wait to hire the ISS Black Star as an Mercenary Officer XD Would be epic if they came with their own customized ship too

Great mod, I think it would make a great addition to the core game.
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: errorgance on November 21, 2020, 05:02:49 PM
alex, do officers for hire now come with their own reputation stats with other factions? Can you gain "contacts" by hiring an officer? can you gain/lose reputation with factions by hiring/firing an officer?
Title: Re: Personal Contacts
Post by: Sedrido on November 29, 2020, 05:40:51 PM
Perhaps you could make a subset of officers called sergeants who could auto deploy to frigate/destroyer grade ships you deploy in battle without lieutenants they can start with 1 base +1 per skill for a total of 4 and to reign in their power as it would be very powerful limit them to level 10 unlike the 20 used for lieutenants