Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Okawal on June 06, 2020, 06:19:24 AM
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As search option didnt found a topic, i will start one:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWJzjMlXYAErxm1?format=jpg&name=900x900)
As stated in the Twitter Post there will be a capital sized Phase-Ship. (if i understood the text correctly)
What do you think it will be like?
Do we finally probe too deep into the warp and get attacked by hellish creatures with the (new)magic weaponry?
Or maybe the [Redacted] improved itself to a level that come akin to magic?
So many question yet Alex will remain silent...
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When I read the tooltip I also assumed it meant we're gonna get a phase capital eventually but honestly, it might be just for mods that have such ships (or plan to add them). There have already been some threads discussing the potential balance of such a ship and so, feel free to check those out. The search option is pretty bad so it might take a while.
EDIT: Well nvm this was surprisingly easy:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18344.msg286450#msg286450
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18061.msg283025#msg283025
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18444.msg288152#msg288152
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That possibility crossed my mind but i dont think he would add something to the tooltip if it wasnt ingame (as it could confuse the user).
And thank you for the links, there are some interesting ideas.
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To summarize from the threads already mentioned (one was started by yours truly some months ago), there's certain properties of phase ships that have to be addressed:
1.) Phase effectiveness is an inverse of ship size, i.e. smaller ships benefit more from it than larger ship
1b.)The ship system, therefore, is crucial to the effectiveness of a large phase ship
2.) Phase ships being considered "one class size up" makes a capital Phase ship something of a super-capital
2b.) This would make such a ship inherently "the best" in terms of single-most powerful vessel
None of these issues are insurmountable, mind you, but it took the Doom having a ridiculous ship system to move it way from mediocre. Now, the Doom is an S-class contender for best player ship in Vanilla. However, no matter how you slice it, a Phase Capital playing by the same rules as all the other Phase Ships isn't going to be able to exploit Phase for mobility and defense like its smaller brethren. The Doom is hardly nimble and a Capital would be even less so. Thus, a Phase Capital would need some additional help with defense, otherwise it would be vastly more vulnerable than any other Capital. Either the ship system would have to be defensive/evasive in nature, it would be a true glass cannon, or it just wouldn't operate like other Phase Ships (i.e. has a shield).
Or, more realistically, I imagine it will be a "special" ship, perhaps one-of-a-kind or at least extremely rare (like the Legion XIV). This alleviates trying to balance it against production-level Capitals and puts a bit of mystique to the thing.
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Which twitter post?
If you're talking about the phase sensor reduction effect i think you're reading a bit too much into the info. Its far more likely that the game has a tiered effect because its possible to make something a phase ship and so, without that base code the game would not work/throw an error, than it meaning there will be a phase capital.
As an example. The Salvage Gantry is a unique hull mod that is only accessible as a built on mod on the Shepard and Salvage Rig. But the description of the hull mod explains that it has varying effects based on the hull size the mod is attached to. Which includes the effect for cruiser and capital size rigs despite such rigs not existing in the base game.
https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Salvage_Gantry
If you're thinking of a reasoning for it. Suppose you're writing a hull mod code and you want to be as through as possible but also as general as possible. A hull mod can have a single effect or a tiered effect. And ideally this would be stored in the same location for each. Storing a tiered effect takes 4 cells in an array if a hull mod can have an effect different for each size and so storing a single effect takes 4 tiers as well. When you do the call to find the info for the text, you're going to call to the 4 cells. And the call itself will check to see if the mod has different values in each of its four value boxes before outputting either the single value or the x/y/z/c information.
However what this means is that any hull mod that can have different effects for different sizes of ships, that is generally allowable to go on those ships will need all four information boxes filled out. The exceptions here as an example are the dedicated targeting core and safety overrides. Both of which are mods which cannot be installed on certain ships.
Edit:
Its also possible that the phase field might come as a special installable hull mod (rare drop or specific drop or faction reward or story point only) that could be placed on non-phase ships. And so could be put on a capital ship.
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On the other hand, Alex is working on stupid, powerful stuff like that currently (or, more generally, endgame content). We will see how it goes.
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I highly doubt there will ever be a vanilla Phase capital, except maybe as a late-game boss ship. As Alex has said before, the Doom is pushing it already. The tooltip, as Goumindong said, is just for compatibility like the Salvage Gantry.
I do hope we get that Phase logistics ship however...
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Perhaps it's a remnant phase dreadnought ;D
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remnant carrier
with phase sparks 8)
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I mean, there's an obvious compromise here: make a phase capital that's a combat freighter. Then the "effectively plus one size step" from being a phase ship is countered by the step down from being a combat freighter, and the end result is scaled at about a conventional capital ship's power level.
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I mean, there's an obvious compromise here: make a phase capital that's a combat freighter. Then the "effectively plus one size step" from being a phase ship is countered by the step down from being a combat freighter, and the end result is scaled at about a conventional capital ship's power level.
Maybe a mobile baseship with more personnel, fuel, and cargo, similar to Apogee, Venture, or maybe Odyssey. Its purpose is not to fight, but it can shoot back if a stray enemy frigate or destroyer wants to duel it.
I still would like to see a destroyer or cruiser-sized phase transport or freighter for a stealth raiding fleet or other black-ops. Capitals drink too much fuel. The current phase ships have abysmal capacity, worse than most normal warships.
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Personally I'm curious as to what kind of lore will it be if it were to be added.
Things that currently bothers me when thinking about it is balancing.
A Capital Class Ship that could phase is likely over the top.
At early game, I'm already annoyed at Gremlins and frikkkkkin Afflictors.
Buuuuuut I would like to see a Capital Ship with Phase Cloak and preferably not usable to us players and only to serve as a predator type that you could occasionally encounter at late game.
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A Capital Class Ship that could phase is likely over the top.
Only if it is a dedicated warship with an overpowered system (like Doom) and/or extreme shot range (like beam Paragon or Gauss Conquest). If it is hybrid ship akin to Mule or Gemini, and it does not have an overpowered system, then all it can do is trade hits - without shields - and hope the enemy dies first. It would probably be too slow even with phase cloak to escape from faster enemies.
Doom without Mine Strike or unlimited Fast Missile Racks and Salamander combo was a sub-par ship. A phase capital would probably be no faster than Doom.
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I agree I guess I'm just being too optimistic since I'm already used to Phased Ships with high destructive capabilities.
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I still would like to see a destroyer or cruiser-sized phase transport or freighter for a stealth raiding fleet or other black-ops. Capitals drink too much fuel. The current phase ships have abysmal capacity, worse than most normal warships.
Something that Tri-Tachyon would have, considering that their phase ships have the odd decently-sized fuel capacity and somewhat reasonable storage capacity for only supplies.
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I think if we redefine "phase ship" as a ship who's primary defense is avoiding hits altogether, the Phase Capital could have a ship system that is only a momentary phase. That is, it can't stay phased but has a very rapidly recharging phase system that makes all shots that would normally hit its hull pass through for about a second. Say it has 3 charges that are near-instant when used and each charge lasts phases for 1 second and recharges in 2 seconds. Momentum would be unaffected by phase so it could theoretically "phase" through 3 seconds of space and then have 50% uptime when in combat.
Pair this with some kind of unique regenerating armor (up to 50% of original value) and a hypothetical phase ship could operate with a different style compared to other main battleships. It would still need to be an offensive powerhouse, though (and perhaps on the speedier side).
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To summarize from the threads already mentioned (one was started by yours truly some months ago), there's certain properties of phase ships that have to be addressed:
1.) Phase effectiveness is an inverse of ship size, i.e. smaller ships benefit more from it than larger ship
1b.)The ship system, therefore, is crucial to the effectiveness of a large phase ship
2.) Phase ships being considered "one class size up" makes a capital Phase ship something of a super-capital
2b.) This would make such a ship inherently "the best" in terms of single-most powerful vessel
None of these issues are insurmountable, mind you, but it took the Doom having a ridiculous ship system to move it way from mediocre. Now, the Doom is an S-class contender for best player ship in Vanilla. However, no matter how you slice it, a Phase Capital playing by the same rules as all the other Phase Ships isn't going to be able to exploit Phase for mobility and defense like its smaller brethren. The Doom is hardly nimble and a Capital would be even less so. Thus, a Phase Capital would need some additional help with defense, otherwise it would be vastly more vulnerable than any other Capital. Either the ship system would have to be defensive/evasive in nature, it would be a true glass cannon, or it just wouldn't operate like other Phase Ships (i.e. has a shield).
Or, more realistically, I imagine it will be a "special" ship, perhaps one-of-a-kind or at least extremely rare (like the Legion XIV). This alleviates trying to balance it against production-level Capitals and puts a bit of mystique to the thing.
if the devs added the IBB bounty mod to the main code this could be done without it being out of place.