Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Wyvern on May 27, 2020, 09:13:43 AM

Title: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Wyvern on May 27, 2020, 09:13:43 AM
A couple of versions ago, we had a soft-limited fleet size, based on the logistical footprint of the ships in our fleet.  This wasn't set up perfectly - there was a basically-mandatory skill to boost the cap, since at default you could just barely field one capital ship - but it did have a number of advantages over the current fixed limit by number of ships.

The big one, though, the one that prompts me to actually write this suggestion: I believe that this change was the underlying driving force for the current game's inflated fleet sizes.  When an endgame player can field a dozen Paragons, the sorts of fleets that can pose a challenge to that are, uh, kinda boring and tedious to fight.

I don't like slogging through a pirate expedition multi-fleet blob that's thirty-plus Atlas IIs and supporting chaff.  I don't like having to fill my fleet with capital ships to have even a chance at taking on some Tri-Tachyon deserter bounty that's packed full of paragons and astrals and dooms.

And the thing is... as long as the player's fleet is limited by number of ships?  Those massive battles have to stay, because otherwise the player will still end up with a fleet full of capitals and cruisers and be able to just steamroll over anything smaller.

So please, bring back fleet cap by logistics.  Don't make a skill for it - that was a mistake last time around.  Maybe have it scale up by level if you need to?  80 at level one (plenty of room for game start, but you might have to pick and choose carefully if you luck into a salvageable capital ship), up to maybe 300 at max level - enough to accommodate a handful of capital ships, but not enough that you can just give every officer their own Paragon.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Grievous69 on May 27, 2020, 09:27:24 AM
Honestly, imo I'd be best if there were no caps at all. No matter which system we will end up with, there's always gonna be an optimal strat. So why not just get rid of arbitrary numbers and let actual logistics be a thing that dictates how many ships can you field before draining supplies/fuel/credits like crazy.

I agree that the last system was more interesting than the current one, but if the logistics came back that scale by level as you suggest, then you're just gonna wait a bit before adding more ships. It's not like people are flying in capitals in early game. If you make logistic increase only upgradeable by spending credits, then it's just an annoying money sink, it would feel like a f2p grind.

Besides, Alex said he's doing something to reduce the scale of end game fleets so I guess we'll be seeing less capital spam? There was a screenshot on Twitter a good while ago showing an average new fleet but that's gonna be hard to find now.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Megas on May 27, 2020, 10:10:55 AM
Even better if fighters became ships again so carriers can spend OP on guns and warship hullmods like they used to.  I am tired of the optimal carrier being the unarmed one that runs from everything while elite fighters do everything.  Also, commanding fighters to do stuff if player wanted.

As for OP, that would maybe help in ending multi-round combat slogs.

As for the picture, it appears at least as big as old 0.6.2 HSDF, plus violation of officer cap.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Wyvern on May 27, 2020, 10:32:26 AM
Quote from: Grievous69 on May 27, 2020, 09:27:24 AM
Honestly, imo I'd be best if there were no caps at all. No matter which system we will end up with, there's always gonna be an optimal strat. So why not just get rid of arbitrary numbers and let actual logistics be a thing that dictates how many ships can you field before draining supplies/fuel/credits like crazy.
And the optimal strat for "no caps" is the same problematic "fill your fleet with capitals" that I'd like to see the game move away from.  Plus with colony income, limiting the player by only what they can afford to support would lead inevitably to even bigger fleets.  Your suggestion doesn't fix anything - it would actually make the problem worse!
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Havoc on May 27, 2020, 10:40:06 AM
sound nice
last run i tried frigate run...later also destroyers...ended with...I need power, now , cheap, so I get some drover and herons
fleet size was an problem and CR (and SO^^)
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Grievous69 on May 27, 2020, 12:46:01 PM
I've been thinking about this a bit and I think the best thing to reduce capital spam is to increase PPT across the board, or maybe more for smaller ships and less for bigger ones. Because even if logistics come back, there's always a problem when you need to fight multiple enemy fleets, or even worse a station + defense fleets. I've been in tons of battles where even cruiser PPT goes down to 0. Because of this in late game, my fleet consists mostly of cruisers, otherwise I'd probably use more escort ships.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Terethall on May 28, 2020, 04:40:31 PM
Quote from: Grievous69 on May 27, 2020, 12:46:01 PM
I've been thinking about this a bit and I think the best thing to reduce capital spam is to increase PPT across the board, or maybe more for smaller ships and less for bigger ones. Because even if logistics come back, there's always a problem when you need to fight multiple enemy fleets, or even worse a station + defense fleets. I've been in tons of battles where even cruiser PPT goes down to 0. Because of this in late game, my fleet consists mostly of cruisers, otherwise I'd probably use more escort ships.

PPT should just be inverse to speed of the ship. The only reason it exists as a concept is to prevent fast frigates from endlessly kiting. If people choose high PPT over high speed ships, that's a sign that the tradeoff is too severe and high speed ships need to be stronger. Is there any good reason this isn't already the case?
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Megas on May 28, 2020, 05:03:23 PM
PPT times were set mostly during 0.6.x when endgame fleets were no bigger than a modern 200k bounty, and multi-fleet battles were not possible.  In addition, skills were more (offensively) powerful and the AI was less cowardly and more willing to fight like a man.  PPT has not kept up with fleet bloat.

Today, even capitals can run out of PPT if the player is not powerful enough and/or map size is too small, and may need to resort to multi-round combat to reset PPT periodically.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Terethall on May 28, 2020, 05:12:32 PM
Quote from: Megas on May 28, 2020, 05:03:23 PM
multi-round combat to reset PPT

Bleh. I still hate that this exists.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Schwartz on May 28, 2020, 05:14:25 PM
Quote from: Megas on May 27, 2020, 10:10:55 AM
Even better if fighters became ships again so carriers can spend OP on guns and warship hullmods like they used to.  I am tired of the optimal carrier being the unarmed one that runs from everything while elite fighters do everything.  Also, commanding fighters to do stuff if player wanted.
Yep. That's one popular community suggestion that I have not seen bring any improvement to the game. May be pointless to argue against it now, but the game is worse off than it was before the change was introduced both concerning balance and combat depth.

No real opinion on fleet size. I never played frigate swarms. PPT seems at a good balance and you always have the option of extending it with Subsystems if ordering ships off the map is not to your liking. Capital spam is only a problem when NPCs spam capitals and the player has to counter with the same.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Terethall on May 28, 2020, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: Schwartz on May 28, 2020, 05:14:25 PM
NPCs spam capitals

Yes, they do, quite a lot, largely because they are not limited by logistics statistics the way the player is. Meaning the game is balanced on the NPC side by developer intuition regarding what a fleet should look like, and on the other side by players interacting with complex systems like mission/bounty rewards, colony income, market commodity supply, etc. Subjecting both to the same constraints would require a fleet-building AI which could never match a competent player, unless it exploited the meta, so it's a reasonable, if sub-optimal, equilibrium. Lowering the power of capitals relative to frigates, something Alex is already doing, does a lot to solve the problem. But I suspect frigate fleets are punished so much by the current design that adjustments to fleet size and especially PPT are necessary in order to make them a really competitive alternative to capital-heavy fleets.

But a design that includes a progression toward capitals isn't strictly bad either... it depends on your goals and philosophy of game design.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Megas on May 28, 2020, 06:18:11 PM
Quote from: Schwartz on May 28, 2020, 05:14:25 PM
No real opinion on fleet size. I never played frigate swarms. PPT seems at a good balance and you always have the option of extending it with Subsystems if ordering ships off the map is not to your liking. Capital spam is only a problem when NPCs spam capitals and the player has to counter with the same.
Capital spam is the entirety of endgame.  Ordos with two or three Radiants, 250k+ named bounties, max strength expedition fleets, or the zombie pirate raider fleets.  Anything less will probably run away and can probably be auto-resolved away with armed civilians.

Probably better if player got more combat stuff and multi-round combat if necessary.  For some ships, namely Doom and Drover, I already use Subsystems and Combat Endurance 1, and they are still the first ships that run out of PPT.  Other ships, I cannot squeeze it in (especially on Heron, or anything that relies on missiles and missile racks), or if I do, I must give up Efficiency Overhaul which I put on everything, or other campaign mod.

Frigate swarms were at their best during 0.6.5a.  Back then, everything was viable in combat, but frigates were faster and cheaper in the campaign.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Tartiflette on May 28, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
Personally, I could see a "maintenance overhead" that starts from the second ship and that scales exponentially with the logistic monthly cost, instead of an arbitrary soft cap threshold. That way you don't have an optimal logistic profile, it is all fluid. Civilian ships would only count for half their cost toward the overhead, and D-mods would reduce it by 20% even without the skill that affects their monthly cost.

Something like (maintenance + (maintenance^3)/500.000) would give a sweet spot between 200 et 300 supplies per month, with 500 being the upper hand of what is reasonable to run:
(https://i.imgur.com/kTIW7YH.jpg)
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Grievous69 on May 28, 2020, 10:47:49 PM
Soo basically logistics like before but it has a curve instead of being binary? I mean at that point you might as well take the old logistics, then give exponential penalties for each point above the max logistics cap. Don't get me wrong, your system seems more elegant but I think it might be hard to understand for most players, it'll just be more tooltips and explanations for something so trivial.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Schwartz on May 29, 2020, 04:54:07 AM
And logistics is enough of a pain as it is. If we discourage use of bigger fleets via supply or fuel penalties, that only means the player has to do more supply runs and has even less time going about their business. As long as end game requires more and more time fielding heavy fleets, the player is in a bind. Meaning an extra penalty, less fun, no upside.

Remember that NPC fleets getting killed results in zero economic penalty for the faction. This is a big thing as far as NPC cap spam is concerned. This is at the core of this issue. This, and the crazy pirate death fleet generation currently in the game.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Tartiflette on May 29, 2020, 06:40:04 AM
You are looking at the problem from the wrong end. The AI fleets are but a device to challenge the player. If we are talking about implementing a different limit on the player side, taking into account the current AI fleet compositions is irrelevant as it is not designed to match said new systems.

What is important is to have a power limit on the player fleet that drives choices and different playstyles. The current hard cap is not really filling that bill since it limits some playstyles, and it railroads the player into a single all caps fleet composition.

I tend to agree that a soft cap on the logistic profile is a better solution, and I'm proposing an even smoother variant on that idea. I do not believe it would be hard to implement a tooltip that just say "ships maintenance/month: XXX, Overhead from fleet logistic: XX"
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: SafariJohn on May 29, 2020, 08:36:36 AM
Quote from: Tartiflette on May 29, 2020, 06:40:04 AM
The AI fleets are but a device to challenge the player.

They also, along with player fleet limits of whatever sort, serve to show the world to the player.

I remember when the Hegemony System Defense Fleet was the biggest bad*** on the block because it had 3 Onslaughts. The lore implied or said that nobody else could maintain huge fleets like that and — guess what — nobody else had fleets like that; not even the player could do it for long IIRC

Happily, in the next release it looks like faction fleets will return to about that size, with more officers than a player can maintain to give them teeth.

But it remains to be seen if player fleets will be constrained within reason.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Schwartz on May 29, 2020, 08:48:48 AM
Tartiflette: I get that, I do. But then it's not just a player-side change either, is it? Talking about one without mentioning the other assumes that the rest of the playing field remains the same.

If we're spitballing, honestly, I don't think your increased logistics scaling would drastically alter how the game is played - only make it more difficult in the way that supply management is difficult (i.e. tedious). Which would probably still be doable with the NPCs remaining as they are now.

And supply drain is one of those unfun necessities where at best, you don't notice the mechanic, and at worst you're out of supplies and are done for. In other words, we're penalizing the bad players the most.

I almost regret saying it, but a fleet size limit based on DP or ship cost or logistics - I'm not a 100% on how it used to be - would be preferable to extra supply overhead. It could simply be a number that ties into player level and goes up as the game progresses - to a point. NPCs could have leveled fleet commanders as the player's counterpart, getting better at it the longer they survive / return to HQ / spawn new fleets, and getting tossed from the pool when that fleet gets wiped out. This way, killing strong fleets would actually make subsequent attacks weaker for a while. Also giving a sense of continuity and storytelling when a notorious commander's fleet is knocking at the gates.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Terethall on May 29, 2020, 10:15:35 AM
Quote from: Schwartz on May 29, 2020, 08:48:48 AM
supply drain is one of those unfun necessities where at best, you don't notice the mechanic, and at worst you're out of supplies and are done for. In other words, we're penalizing the bad players the most.

I just want to chime in that some of us enjoy managing our fleet logistics -- prepping for an expedition to the fringe, and then tracking whether we're profitable or not, is fun. Crossing your fingers that you find some debris fields and derelicts to salvage because you miscalculated or ran into a fight you didn't intend to take and now are dangerously low on supplies adds tension and fun to the game. Managing whether repairs are on or not, and sometimes having to limp home at half CR, praying no pirate fleet comes along and decides you look like easy pickings, is engaging. Deciding to try to sneak into the port of a nearby market, even though the owner is hostile, because you just can't make it to the next system to get more supplies or fuel, are some of the most memorable moments in the game. Scuttling half my fleet and ejecting my crew into the void because I made a division error, or got greedy and forgot to head back to the core for a resupply, are easily the most memorable moments for me in the game -- right up there with squeaking out victories in battles I was sure I'd lose.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: intrinsic_parity on May 29, 2020, 10:59:07 AM
Quote from: Tartiflette on May 29, 2020, 06:40:04 AM
You are looking at the problem from the wrong end. The AI fleets are but a device to challenge the player. If we are talking about implementing a different limit on the player side, taking into account the current AI fleet compositions is irrelevant as it is not designed to match said new systems.

What is important is to have a power limit on the player fleet that drives choices and different playstyles. The current hard cap is not really filling that bill since it limits some playstyles, and it railroads the player into a single all caps fleet composition.

I tend to agree that a soft cap on the logistic profile is a better solution, and I'm proposing an even smoother variant on that idea. I do not believe it would be hard to implement a tooltip that just say "ships maintenance/month: XXX, Overhead from fleet logistic: XX"

I completely agree that the problem here is really that there needs to be better limits on player power than 'max ships in fleet'. That's really what caused the capital bloat in the game: the player is allowed to make such absurdly strong fleets so easily that the only way to make the late game challenging was to give the enemy even more absurdly strong fleets (and mechanics like zombie pirate hoards). I made a thread a while ago where I basically suggested limiting the players power through other mechanics like ship accessibility, progress gates in the story etc (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18068.msg283936#msg283936). Maybe something along those lines could reign in player power so that mechanics like fleets and logistics caps are unnecessary. It doesn't have to be that suggestion necessarily, but I like the idea of limiting the player through other means that are more tied into a story or the rest of the world rather than just direct limitations of the fleet.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: SCC on May 29, 2020, 11:53:43 AM
I have played 0.9 and 0.9.1 for some time with default ship limit, but I eventually edited it to 100. However, as far as I know, this did not make me go above the default 30 ship limit for a couple of reasons. One is that I didn't want that many ships and tried to make a balanced fleet composition. Another is that it didn't puff the running costs away, I still had to pay maintenance, salaries and for fuel. And for most ships I got and some weapons (I hoard all weapons I find in one spot). Actually, the most meaningful was that it just was too much work to outfit so many ships. I autofitted many ships (while having all the needed weapons, meaning it didn't stray from the template) because not every Wolf or Lasher is meaningful.
One upside I intentionally looked for is that no longer ships were unavailable for recovery, because recovering all ships might have put me over the limit, if I did so. I never did.
It feels as if it was a solution looking for a problem.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: pairedeciseaux on May 29, 2020, 12:10:23 PM
Quote from: Schwartz on May 29, 2020, 08:48:48 AM
And supply drain is one of those unfun necessities where at best, you don't notice the mechanic, and at worst you're out of supplies and are done for. In other words, we're penalizing the bad players the most.

New players have a hard time with logistic in Starsector. This is not uncommon for sandbox-type video game to have some form of survival elements, supply/fuel/crew management is part of that. Though I agree: let's not make it worse, especially as battle are challenging enough - as long as player power creep is kept under control.

Quote from: Schwartz on May 29, 2020, 08:48:48 AM
I almost regret saying it, but a fleet size limit based on DP or ship cost or logistics - I'm not a 100% on how it used to be - would be preferable to extra supply overhead. It could simply be a number that ties into player level and goes up as the game progresses - to a point.

Sound reasonable. Why would you regret saying it?  :)

Allow me to go crazy for a minute...

Let's set a smallish limit based on DP:
Spoiler
hardFleetCap = 5 * ParagonDP = 5 * 60 = 300

also

maxBattleSize = 500
hardFleetCap = maxBattleSize / 2 + maxBattleSize / 10 = 500 / 2 + 500 / 10 = 250 + 50 = 300

(rough split between military and logistic ships, 5/6 military and 1/6 logistic)
[close]

Then, largest fleet can be:
Spoiler
4 * Pagagon      = 240
60-DP of logistic and smaller ships, maybe a few figates for pursuits
(it does fit within the current 30 ships limit)

or

3 * 40-DP capitals   = 120
4 * 20-DP cruisers   = 80
4 * 10-DP destroyers   = 40
4 * 5-DP frigates   = 20
40-DP of logistic ships
(it does fit within the current 30 ships limit)

or

1 * 45-DP capital   = 45
4 * 15-DP cruisers   = 60
8 * 10-DP destroyers   = 80
15 * 5-DP frigates   = 75
40-DP of logistic ships
(it does fit within the current 30 ships limit)

or

2 * 20-DP cruisers   = 40
10 * 10-DP destroyers   = 100
24 * 5-DP frigates   = 120
40-DP of logistic ships
(it does not fit within the current 30 ships limit)
[close]

What about dynamic fleet cap based on player level?
Spoiler
maxBattleSize = 500
hardFleetCap = 300
maxPlayerLevel = 50
initialFleetCap = (2 * DestroyerReferenceDP) + (6 * FrigateReferenceDP) = (2 * 10) + (6 * 5) = 50

(this starting enveloppe of 50 DP may be too generous)

actualFleetCap = initialFleetCap + (floor(currentPlayerLevel / 2) * 10)

(not ideal formula because this would not increase fleet cap with each player level,
but good enough to obtain the following result for demonstration purpose)

with player level 1
actualFleetCap = 50 + (floor(1 / 2) * 10) = 50 + (0 * 10) = 50

with player level 5
actualFleetCap = 50 + (floor(5 / 2) * 10) = 50 + (2 * 10) = 70

with player level 10
actualFleetCap = 50 + (floor(10 / 2) * 10) = 50 + (5 * 10) = 100

with player level 20
actualFleetCap = 50 + (floor(20 / 2) * 10) = 50 + (10 * 10) = 150

with player level 40
actualFleetCap = 50 + (floor(40 / 2) * 10) = 50 + (20 * 10) = 250

with player level 50
actualFleetCap = 50 + (floor(50 / 2) * 10) = 50 + (25 * 10) = 300
[close]

Summary:

What do you think?
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Alex on May 29, 2020, 01:31:56 PM
Quote from: SCC on May 29, 2020, 11:53:43 AM
... Actually, the most meaningful was that it just was too much work to outfit so many ships. ...

It feels as if it was a solution looking for a problem.

That's basically what it's there for, to more or less gently tell the player not to do that. That's *all* it's there for; it's not meant to be a limit on player power. And it's really not. I mean, if the limit was 5 ships or some such, then it would be, but it's set high enough that it's not a meaningful limitation in terms of power. And in the next release, you'll be able to recover ships without issue when at or near the limit (and go over the limit, for a large supply cost increase), so that's the main point of friction removed.


An important thing to note is that with the skill revamp, a lot of the fleetwide skill effects drop off when you have more than a certain number of deployment points for a certain type of ship (that's affected by the effect). The number and the type of ship that matters varies for different skills.

The question is, will this be enough to mimic a deployment points-based fleet size limit, without the added complication of actually having one?

The main point of conflict with that, imo, is if you needed to bring a bunch of combat ships just for "weight" to get more deployment points onto the battlefield. In which case, losing the fleetwide skill bonuses might be worth getting 50% more deployment; that'd be a problem. On the other hand, enemy fleets now have more quality and less quantity, so you both don't need as much paper "strength" to get a decent deployment, and would be at more of a disadvantage facing a higher-quality enemy fleet if you did get that strength at the expense of quality.

Hmm. If needed, one solution might be to, say, only count ships with officers for "fleet strength" as far as deployment points go. That'd remove the incentive to stack a bunch of ships you don't intend to use. I kind of want to see where it ends up first, though. In any case, adding a more mechanically complex fleet size limit seems premature, when there are mechanics that could very well produce the same results anyway.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: SCC on May 29, 2020, 02:06:38 PM
That's still redundant. It just means that instead of people settling for the amount of micromanagement they want, there's a limit to it. And it's a decent limit. Running cost also are still present. Players just not finding it fun is also a factor, though it's a subjective one. Spending more time to acquire more of those ships is another limit (though not really important without a time limit, so how's that endgame going?). I want to say, though, that a hard cap for fleet size is the opposite of gentle. It's slamming into a brick wall. You can't work with it, around it in any way. All other measures work incrementally, come from pre-existing mechanics and allow for player preference, as to how big a fleet you can handle. This is gently telling the player not to do that.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Tartiflette on May 29, 2020, 02:07:01 PM
Quote from: pairedeciseaux on May 29, 2020, 12:10:23 PM
New players have a hard time with logistic in Starsector. This is not uncommon for sandbox-type video game to have some form of survival elements, supply/fuel/crew management is part of that. Though I agree: let's not make it worse, especially as battle are challenging enough - as long as player power creep is kept under control.
Quote from: Schwartz on May 29, 2020, 08:48:48 AM
And supply drain is one of those unfun necessities where at best, you don't notice the mechanic, and at worst you're out of supplies and are done for. In other words, we're penalizing the bad players the most.
I'd like to point out that a supplies overhead mechanic could actually make the early game VASTLY more relaxed on the logistic requirements since then you could have a much smaller base maintenance footprint per ship. Having ships able to carry months worth of supplies for themselves would be reasonable since the overhead would pick up pace and become a constraint for mid to late game large fleets.
Title: Re: Bring back fleet size capped by logistics
Post by: Alex on May 29, 2020, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: SCC on May 29, 2020, 02:06:38 PM
That's still redundant. It just means that instead of people settling for the amount of micromanagement they want, there's a limit to it. And it's a decent limit.

Ah, what you're saying it "just means" is precisely the point! But I don't think it's a big deal either way; as you say, it's a decent limit. Regardless, in the next release, it won't be a hard limit but will rather up supply consumption a lot. Not so much that you might not go a ship or two over, but probably not much more than that. So, as I was saying, the main pain point of the current implementation will be gone.