Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Morgan Rue on October 29, 2019, 12:36:02 PM
-
It feels like I can get literally everything I want on a Drover and then some. I can quite reasonably fit four small missiles, expanded missile racks, two 12~ OP fighters, a pair of machine guns and almost 20 OP into capacitors. There is no 'Oh I want to focus on fighters more than these small missiles' style choice.
I could fit a 'good' Drover with 40 OP. It would have two Broadswords(16), four Harpoons(12) and Expanded Missile Racks(12). A bit light on fighters, and no ballistic weapons, but four Harpoons with Expanded Missile Racks is pretty good.
Drover should probably have 45 OP, same as the Condor. Or maybe they should both be 55. Or the Drover should lose a flight deck and get more missiles.
Actually, compared to the Condor, the Drover seems really out of line. I don't see an area where the Condor is better than the Drover.
-
The drover is a military vessel, purpose built for battle.
The condor is a makeshift carrier made out of a freighter, and it shows.
I personally don't see the issue with having redundant options in the game, not every faction has access to the drover, not even the player at game start. So for factions without it this is the only 'militarised' destroyer sized carrier that exists.
-
Drover is maybe somewhat OP, but nerfing into the ground that badly is not the answer - Drover would just become irrelevant, with Heron and Astral remaining as the only viable primary carrier picks.
As for above 'good' build: Carriers are very good at long-term sustainability and multi-round combat, why would you ever design a crippled one that loses most of it's combat ability after running out of Harpoons in few seconds of combat.
-
Is it really a contradiction? Missiles may be alpha strike, but the primary reason to field a carrier is the fighters. The missiles are 'extra'. And that many harpoons would last a few frigate or destroyer kills. Also I could just replace all the Harpoons with Salamanders, drop EMR and I have 4 more OP to put into fighters or token ballistic weapons. I don't see a good way to use all of it's 70 OP without adding logistics hullmods or similar on top of a fully combat capable ship.
Drover would still be pretty good at 45 OP, though I do think dropping it to 45 OP is a bit too much. The main issue I have with it is I don't have to choose between what to put on it, since it can afford pretty much everything anyway.
The Condor is the only thing I've got to compare it to, there is no other destroyer size carriers in vanilla.
-
Well the Condor is a junk ship after all, just like the colossus mk3 or mudskipper mk2 (and that thing crack me up so much with it's big gun).
They are supposed to below average, and of course it shows up more when the other choice is the best of the patch.
Honestly the Drover isn't that powerful by itself, it's quite slow with a large profile and no medium slots, having one or two won't reveal it's strength that is fighter swarm, and by that time people tend to drift towards bigger fishes just because.
Nerfing it would be detrimental to the viability in early/mid game in general, maybe by increasing it's DP by 1-2, so that it can clearly stand between the Condor and Heron?
-
Making it a bit more expensive would work. Perhaps part of the issue is how strong Reserve Deployment is. Or maybe it's that proper anti-fighter is quite rare outside of interceptors.
-
I don't see an area where the Condor is better than the Drover.
Condors are better for missiles(particularly salamander and pilum)
-
Actually, compared to the Condor, the Drover seems really out of line. I don't see an area where the Condor is better than the Drover.
I'm quite agree with you, but, as we all know, Condor is cheaper than Drover. That may be the reason why Pirate frequently use it.
I think we should not require too much for Condor, because it was tarsus refitted for military uses. That means compare Condor to Drover just like compare hound to lasher. Of course, Condor would never be useless, fast missile racks is the best friend of salamander and pilum(I'm agree with Kelran on that point), a nightmare of lasher or other frigate.
-
Keep in mind 12 deployment points to the Condor's 10. That's a large % difference when you're not limited by the ship count cap early on!
Given that the Condor can fulfill a very similar role to the Drover, that's fair tbh. The main things that define the ships are 2 wings for a low DP cost. Everything else is sugar on top, even if fully exploiting the Dover's ship system is a bit more effective than doing the same for the Condor.*
*Unless you have mods that add more interesting medium missiles with long reloads. Then it's a question of whether they added low-count superfighters to match.
-
I would say most carriers do not have enough OP. They only have enough OP for fighters, carrier hullmods, and... that's it. I missed the old days where carriers had to be built like warship-lite and could fire guns in a pinch. Now, carriers built to do their job have no guns (aside from PD). Legion is kind of an exception, but even then, it does not have many guns, although that is mainly due to poor dissipation.
Actually, compared to the Condor, the Drover seems really out of line. I don't see an area where the Condor is better than the Drover.
Seeing how Drover costs 12 OP, I better get what I pay for. Drover seems stronger than Medusa though, although I think Medusa is not worth 12 DP.
-
Wow. This thread just made me realize the Vortex is in Ship and Weapon Pack. Man those ship and weapons seem to fit flawlessly into Vanilla. I personally like the Vortex better than the Drover, but that might be a moot point since it technically isn't Vanilla.
-
I mean the Drover is very clearly too good. That it has way more OP than it would ever need is just icing on the cake.
-
Drovers are good because of Sparks. (Before 0.9a, Reserve Deployment was very powerful, but now it is not so great.) Drover may be the best carrier of its size (because the other options are akin to low-grade pirate or hybrid ships), but it probably would be nothing special without those Sparks.
Drover has plenty of OP if it ignores weapons. Given its speed and shield stats, Drover can easily afford to be unarmed. If Drover should lose OP, then its ballistics mounts should have built-in railguns or other good assault weapons (so it can fight in a pinch) not unlike Monitor's built-in flak cannons.
The old hangar stat from 0.5.x Starfarer should make a return, and fighters costs should draw from the hangar stat and not OP. That way, carriers can arm themselves properly instead of throwing everything into fighters just to do their job.
-
Condor is Underpowered
Drover is Overpowered
These statements can both be correct, but the middle ground is hard to find. If the Condor had 20 more speed, I don't think it'd suck. Number of OPs isn't always the problem, the primary stats and system for the Condor are the problem. No one would design a carrier like this. Where as the Drover has excellent stats and a great supporting system. Even with less OPs it would still be strong and workable.
I haven't been in the community long but I'd bet the Drover was created by the devs much later then the Condor. The Dev needs to take a long hard look at all the earlier ships and consider if their stats and OPs make sense. Condor being a early game carrier doesn't excuse it being uselessly slow or having systems that don't improve it's performance in a meaningful way. You should certainly want to upgrade to a better ship, you shouldn't feel like it doesn't carry it's own weight.
-
But it does carry it's own weight though. (In my opinion)
It carries fighters/bombers without a penalty along with a medium missile launcher.
It's a damn load better then pirate carriers, but about the same level as d-modded military carriers.
Should you actually pay for one when you can afford not to? Nah. But I won't turn one down when there are only worse alternatives. It's truly better then garbage and to me, for me, that's right where it should be. A privateers choice when true military gear isn't to be found.
-
But it does carry it's own weight though. (In my opinion)
It carries fighters/bombers without a penalty along with a medium missile launcher.
It's a damn load better then pirate carriers, but about the same level as d-modded military carriers.
Should you actually pay for one when you can afford not to? Nah. But I won't turn one down when there are only worse alternatives. It's truly better then garbage and to me, for me, that's right where it should be. A privateers choice when true military gear isn't to be found.
I agree with this: The Condor is a useful addition to a fleet and does work in a battle. Just because its inferior doesn't make it a waste of space, if nothing else is available.
Condor is Underpowered
Drover is Overpowered
These statements can both be correct, but the middle ground is hard to find. If the Condor had 20 more speed, I don't think it'd suck. Number of OPs isn't always the problem, the primary stats and system for the Condor are the problem. No one would design a carrier like this. Where as the Drover has excellent stats and a great supporting system. Even with less OPs it would still be strong and workable.
I haven't been in the community long but I'd bet the Drover was created by the devs much later then the Condor. The Dev needs to take a long hard look at all the earlier ships and consider if their stats and OPs make sense. Condor being a early game carrier doesn't excuse it being uselessly slow or having systems that don't improve it's performance in a meaningful way. You should certainly want to upgrade to a better ship, you shouldn't feel like it doesn't carry it's own weight.
This is also true. My favorite ship to poke with the current skills is the Enforcer, which out of combat has very high fuel use and in combat is about 80% as strong as a proper destroyer, at best. The in combat ability varies with the balance of skills and hullmods (without any changes to the Enforcer itself, it used to be near best in class...), but the out of combat high fuel useage is just annoying, and is a constant debuff on low tech ships.
-
Drover is a good package with some glaring weaknesses. I don't think it needs to be nerfed. I would rather see fighters in general nerfed a bit.
If you want to arm it, you better stick cheaper fighters on it. It hasn't got rear defense at all. As far as the ship itself goes, it's a glass cannon carrier.
-
If anything, the ship system of the drover nerf's it as I never feel like I should use bombers on it. I feel compelled to use fighters/interceptors.
Compared to the heron which gives a general damage buff, and so is good for anything.
-
It hasn't got rear defense at all.
Which is not an exploitable weakness on a spammable interceptor carrier when fighting AI. Salamanders will be intercepted by fighters, enemies will be too distracted by fighters to get behind Drovers (as long as you deploy enough).
Yes, player piloted AM Afflictor can delete a Drover every few seconds until it runs out of AM ammo/CR. But AI can't properly pilot phase ships, so vulnerability to them is irrelevant in player fleet.
-
...but I'd bet the Drover was created by the devs much later then the Condor.
Drover is a 0.8a newcomer, just like Mora.
It used to be even stronger with better Reserve Deployment and Helmsmanship 3 (when engaging fighters did not exceed 1% flux).
Today, it is good for Spark spam.
-
While we say that the Drover system is BEST used for fighters, it is actually pretty darn good for bombers too. It lets you instantly launch a brand new wave while the previous is returning. And during that time fighter readiness ticks UP instead of down, which is very very strong.
-
And during that time fighter readiness ticks UP instead of down, which is very very strong.
Do wings only regenerate if they are full? Reserve Deployment only seems to spit out one bomber (if not full), which is not enough to refill an empty wing, and rate may still tick down.
-
I may need to retest to be honest, I thought they made a whole new wing. My bad!
-
@ Thaago: I know Reserve Deployment has been nerfed in 0.9a or 0.9.1a, but I am not sure how, and if it is different for bombers or not. I have not played around with it too much. From what I vaguely remember, it seems to be weak for bombers, and it did very little to full wings. It seemed to help non-bombers that were not full.
-
Non-bomber wings get full RD benefit. I think it refreshes the wing temporarily and deploys 50% more fighters, rounded up? For bombers I believe it just deploys a new wave?
-
But it does carry it's own weight though. (In my opinion)
It carries fighters/bombers without a penalty along with a medium missile launcher.
It's a damn load better then pirate carriers, but about the same level as d-modded military carriers.
Should you actually pay for one when you can afford not to? Nah. But I won't turn one down when there are only worse alternatives. It's truly better then garbage and to me, for me, that's right where it should be. A privateers choice when true military gear isn't to be found.
I think we might agree but my wording used is giving the wrong impression.
If you are early game, the condor is worth taking assuming the d mods aren't crippling. When I say carries it's own weight I mean if you had to drop a ship to get a better ship it'd be at the top of the list. It certainly can fight, it isn't a liability it's just extremely sub optimal.
I can envision an end game fleet with many early game ships, no one would produce a Condor from player shipyards.
For example a Colossus III would be better in nearly all cases then a Condor. It more tanky, faster in combat, uses less supplies (1 more fuel), has flare defensive system, has ground support package which is that is rare (only 2 ships have it) and 300 cargo space. Colossus III is able to fairly effectively fight at close range and has flare defend itself. I get that it is an inferior fighter dispenser, but the condor can't do anything without it's fighters. Carriers are/should be more then fighter dispensers.
Fighters are great, it's why modified flight decks can be added to most of my ships. Even just swarms of Talons. Condor leans on that strength way too much.
edit:
I get that it's good early game, but only because you have nothing. A Hammer/Enforcer/Wolf ect continues to be solid even mid-late game, not so much with Condor.