Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Mods => Topic started by: Sundog on April 11, 2019, 03:01:44 PM

Title: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on April 11, 2019, 03:01:44 PM
Fuel Siphoning

(https://img.shields.io/github/downloads/NateNBJ/FuelSiphoning/total?color=496B8E&label=Download%20Fuel%20Siphoning&style=flat&logo=DocuSign&logoColor=white)
 (https://github.com/NateNBJ/FuelSiphoning/releases/download/v1.2.0/Fuel.Siphoning.zip)
Old Versions (https://github.com/NateNBJ/FuelSiphoning/releases/)
Change Log (https://github.com/NateNBJ/FuelSiphoning/wiki/Change-Log)

Compatible with all known mods.
Integrated with Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181).
Can be added to existing games.
Can be removed from games in which it was already used.


Instead of stockpiling enough fuel for an entire expedition, Fuel Siphoning gives you the option to refuel along the way.
It converts supplies to fuel based on the base cost of each.
It works in any nebula, but it works best at nebulae in nebula type systems.

(https://i.imgur.com/BRSbpKC.png)

How does this mod improve the game?
By making hyperspace travel more dynamic and eventful.
Typically, fueling up for an expedition is a binary interaction; either you bring enough fuel and make it back to civilization, or you don't, and get stranded.
This mod makes it more interesting both to plan for expeditions, and to improvise when your plans go wrong.

Frequent Questions
How exactly is the conversion ratio (fuel per unit of supplies) calculated?
base-supply-value / base-fuel-value = fuel-per-supply
This works even if the base value of fuel or supplies has been modified.
In nebula type systems, fuel can be siphoned at 100% efficiency (e.g. 4 fuel per supply if fuel costs 25 and supplies cost 100)
At nebulae in non-nebula systems, fuel can be siphoned at 75% efficeincy (3 fuel per supply)
[close]
What options does this mod provide?
You can edit FUEL_SIPHONING_OPTIONS.ini to change a few things relevant to the mod, including conversion ratios, the price and efficiency of fuel, and the sensor profile penalty while siphoning fuel.
[close]
Why don't I see the "Siphon Fuel" ability after adding the mod?
If you added Fuel Siphoning to an existing game, it won't be assigned to your toolbar yet.
You may need to assign it manually by right-clicking the ability toolbar.
[close]
[close]

About
Thanks
Alex and the rest of the Fractal Softworks team, for this excellent game and it's outstanding modding API.
LazyWizard, for making this mod much easier to test using Console Commands (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4106.0).
kazi, for the guide on setting up Intelij IDE (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10057.0)

Permissions
All assets from this project may be used without obtaining explicit permission as long as...
No laws are broken and Fractal Softworks' terms of service are not violated
The original authors of any code or assets used are credited
Nothing taken from this mod is used for nefarious purposes
If you would like to use something in a way that doesn't meet these criteria, please ask me about it first.
[close]

Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: xenoargh on April 12, 2019, 12:25:35 PM
Cool idea!
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Sundog on April 13, 2019, 06:53:14 AM
Thanks! I'm working on something else to make exploration more eventful as well  :)
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Alex on April 13, 2019, 10:50:40 AM
Just wanted to say, I really like this idea. Being able to just use red giants for this is such a nice touch - you can see which stars are usable on the map, and it's an interesting consideration for plotting a course. Good stuff!
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Harmful Mechanic on April 13, 2019, 11:05:54 AM
Yeah, this is fantastic, I'm going to start a long run this afternoon to test it out.
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Mr. Nobody on April 13, 2019, 11:54:01 AM
Don't you need those fancy thingamajigs on Syndria to make fuel out of stars though?
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Harmful Mechanic on April 13, 2019, 12:03:40 PM
Who cares? It's a useful, interesting game mechanic, make up whatever reasoning you want for it.

https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2007/11/08/collecting-natural-antimatter/ (https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2007/11/08/collecting-natural-antimatter/)
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Sundog on April 13, 2019, 01:01:37 PM
Just wanted to say, I really like this idea. Being able to just use red giants for this is such a nice touch - you can see which stars are usable on the map, and it's an interesting consideration for plotting a course. Good stuff!
Thanks! At first I had it set up for gas giants, but quickly discovered how annoying that was.

Yeah, this is fantastic, I'm going to start a long run this afternoon to test it out.
Glad to hear it! Please let me know if there's anything you think I can improve  :)

Don't you need those fancy thingamajigs on Syndria to make fuel out of stars though?
Yes, Synchrotron Cores are required to efficiently convert volatiles into fuel using the fuel production industry, but that process doesn't involve stars. Volatiles may be mined and imported/exported, so I think it's a safe assumption that the raw material for fuel production comes from planets. I like to think of fuel siphoning as a less efficient way to produce fuel. In fact, the conversion ratio of supplies to fuel is meant to ensure that buying fuel (at least on the black market) is almost always cheaper than siphoning.
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: AxleMC131 on April 13, 2019, 04:07:42 PM
This is a neat-looking idea! I like how you've done it through a campaign ability.

I wonder if it would be possible to make this only work (or only work effectively) if you have a particular kind of ship? Might result in a "Gameplay > Realism" argument, but I like the idea of having to have a particular "siphoning rig" ship in order to make best use of the ability. You could have a custom hullmod like Salvage Gantry, or tie it to an existing one like Surveying Equipment. Or for quicker player accessibility it could be a modular hullmod you can strap to tankers like the Dram and Phaeton.

In other thoughts, you might be interested in popping into the Starsector Unofficial Discord if you haven't already, and taking a look at the WIP "Vast Expanse" mod - it's primary purpose is to increase the size of the sector, but it also implements a (slightly different) way to acquire fuel directly from stars. You might like to talk to the creator and create some kind of situational synergy between the mods - ie. having both fuel generation options be viable to a player (if they're using both mods) without one being objectively better in all situations.
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Sundog on April 13, 2019, 05:33:39 PM
Might result in a "Gameplay > Realism" argument
That's pretty much what it boils down to. I like the idea of ships specialized for fuel siphoning, and it would certainly be more realistic, but I didn't want to mess with vanilla fleet building more than necessary. However, some vanilla mechanics lend themselves naturally to modifying how siphoning works. Solar Shielding cuts down on CR damage while siphoning, for example. Also, siphoning speed is proportional to the fleet's fuel capacity, so having tankers with auxiliary fuel tanks can help you limit CR damage.

That's a good idea about Vast Expanse. I'll ask around about it on Discord. Any idea who the primary author for it is?
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Sundog on April 13, 2019, 10:35:37 PM
Fuel Siphoning 1.0.1 (Beta)

A compatibility patch for Unknown Skies
Fuel siphoning ability now recognizes Red Giants as a fuel source when Unknown Skies is installed.

Sorry about that!
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Sundog on April 19, 2019, 09:25:27 PM
Has anyone had any issues with this? I'm thinking of asking to have it moved to Mods.
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Sundog on April 23, 2019, 10:15:29 PM
Fuel Siphoning 1.0.2 (Beta)

Updated forum link in version file
Added changelog
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Schwartz on April 23, 2019, 11:29:50 PM
Very cool. I'm hoping Alex steals this. More science-y stuff with gameplay use is always nice. As are ways to manipulate the main two logistic products.
Title: Re: [0.9a] Fuel Siphoning - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Sundog on April 24, 2019, 04:10:01 PM
I'm hoping Alex steals this.
Me too!  :)

More science-y stuff with gameplay use is always nice. As are ways to manipulate the main two logistic products.
I love everything about supplies. The combat/CR/supplies dynamic makes Starsector a better survival game than anything that actually calls itself a survival game. A big reason I decided this mod was worth making was to increase the depth of the two "survival" resources.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning 1.0.3 - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Sundog on May 11, 2019, 07:56:31 AM
Fuel Siphoning 1.0.3

Incremented game compatibility version to 0.9.1a
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.0.3 - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Schwartz on May 11, 2019, 02:21:20 PM
Btw, I tried adding the last 0.9a version to my in-progress game a week ago and the icon would not show up when I tried to assign a new skill to a quickbar slot. Will try again with this version.

Edit: Worked this time.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.0.3 - Convert Supplies to Fuel at Red Giants
Post by: Sundog on June 13, 2019, 11:06:30 AM
Fuel Siphoning 1.0.4

Fixed fuel siphoning rate being affected by fuel per unit of supplies


It should now take about one day to fill an empty fuel meter no matter what the fuel conversion ratio is. This should drastically reduce the amount of supplies required to recover CR after refueling when not using Halved Fuel Efficiency and Cost and/or Doubled Supply Cost.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.0 - Now more useful!
Post by: Sundog on October 10, 2019, 11:00:19 AM
Fuel Siphoning 1.1.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=15272.0)

Improved fuel siphoning mechanics:
   Fuel siphoning is now performed at nebulae instead of red giants, meaning it no longer causes CR damage
   In nebula type systems, fuel can be siphoned at 100% efficiency (e.g. 4 fuel per supply if fuel costs 25 and supplies cost 100)
   At nebulae in non-nebula systems, fuel can be siphoned at 75% efficeincy
   Siphoning rate now scales with burn level (conversion ratio is still unafected by burn level)
   Increased sensor profile penalty for siphoning fuel from 100% to 300% to compensate for the sensor profile reduction from nebulae
Improved siphon fuel ability visuals
Added a settings file (FUEL_SIPHONING_OPTIONS.ini) for tweaking relevant numbers, including fuel efficiency and the cost of fuel
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.0 - Now more useful!
Post by: Sundog on October 10, 2019, 10:06:37 PM
Fuel Siphoning 1.1.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=15272.0)

Fixed an error that could cause the fuel tooltip to display the incorrect base price in rare cases
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: Sundog on October 12, 2019, 02:18:27 PM
Fuel Siphoning 1.1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=15272.0)

Removed "fuelValue" setting from options file due to causing incompatibility with versions of Starsector other than 0.9.1a-RC8 for Windows
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: DornoDiosMio on October 22, 2019, 05:25:02 PM
This is a very cool idea and I really like the way you've implemented it. The freedom to explore without necessarily having enough fuel to make it back home makes exploration more exciting. The fact that you can use your precious supplies to augment your fuel supply is great and gives you a possible way to get back home.

In a way it reminds me of Star Control 2, when you would run out of fuel in hyperspace all you could do was wait for the Melnorme to show up and sell you fuel for the type of currency they accepted. If there was something like this in StarSector then running out of fuel in hyperspace and getting stranded wouldn't be a killer.

My apologies if there already is something like that, it's been some time since I have played the campaign (just starting now). Trying to find all the mods that I want to use so I can put them in before I start the game.

There is so much new stuff added it is a little overwhelming. The way it used to be I would essentially go out and blow up ships, take their goods and sell them. Rinse/Repeat.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: Sundog on October 22, 2019, 06:01:55 PM
My apologies if there already is something like that, it's been some time since I have played the campaign (just starting now).
No need to apologize, but there is something like that. You can use the "Distress Call" ability to request help.

There is so much new stuff added it is a little overwhelming.
Yeah, Starsector and its mods have come a long way for sure! Hope you enjoy fuel siphoning!
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: Noviastar on November 02, 2019, 02:03:15 AM
Nice.  Going to try a Nomad Fleet play through.  I can see it helping when you get stuck and your distress call just issen't bringing aid.  saves so many reloads. 
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: Donahue on January 17, 2020, 04:05:33 AM
What is fuelConsumptionMult? Changing it doesn't seem to change the amount supplies used.  Also how can I tell if the system is a nebula type system? Like Corvus sits in a nebula and has many clouds on the periphery yet when I sit my fleet in one of the clouds the tool tip reports "low density".  What's a system that would report "high density"?
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: AxleMC131 on January 17, 2020, 12:16:55 PM
What's a system that would report "high density"?

From the OP:

Quote
It works in any nebula, but it works best at nebulae in nebula type systems.

"Nebula" systems being those systems that don't have a star, just a bunch of planets and a whole lotta clouds. They show up from the hyperspace map as a purple doughnut icon rather than a star.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: Sundog on January 17, 2020, 04:29:32 PM
Nice.  Going to try a Nomad Fleet play through.  I can see it helping when you get stuck and your distress call just issen't bringing aid.  saves so many reloads.
Good luck!  ;D

What is fuelConsumptionMult? Changing it doesn't seem to change the amount supplies used.
"fuelConsumptionMult" changes the amount of fuel your fleet uses in hyperspace, regardless of whether or not fuel siphoning is used. The "DensityConversionRatio" settings can be used to adjust the amount of supplies consumed by using the ability. Higher numbers are more efficient.

Also how can I tell if the system is a nebula type system? Like Corvus sits in a nebula and has many clouds on the periphery yet when I sit my fleet in one of the clouds the tool tip reports "low density".  What's a system that would report "high density"?
AxleMC's answer is spot-on. With the "starscape" option off, nebula systems show up as rings, and with it on they look like clouds.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: Donahue on January 22, 2020, 07:01:03 AM
"fuelConsumptionMult" changes the amount of fuel your fleet uses in hyperspace, regardless of whether or not fuel siphoning is used. The "DensityConversionRatio" settings can be used to adjust the amount of supplies consumed by using the ability. Higher numbers are more efficient.

Hi, I tried chaning lowDensityConversionRatio to something ridiculous like 2000, giving 8000 units of fuel per supply on the tooltip, yet the supply drain is still alarmingly large while running the fleet around a low density cloud.  Fueling 10k+ units of fuel used like 3k+ units of supplies...Sounds right?
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: Sundog on January 22, 2020, 04:34:29 PM
After looking at the code, it looks like the conversion ratio settings aren't actually taken into account... I'll patch that soon. Sorry for the trouble. Thanks for bringing this to my attention!
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: Sundog on January 23, 2020, 08:09:09 PM
Fuel Siphoning 1.1.3 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=15272.0)

Fixed "DensityConversionRatio" options not being applied
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: iW1ndowL1cker on January 29, 2020, 04:27:50 PM
So I am having a problem with the mod, I installed it in my mod folder and everything starts up fine and the "ability" shows up in my bar, but it never changes from "you need to be in a nebula" even though I've gone through multiple ones. I am sure this is something simple.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on January 29, 2020, 06:36:38 PM
Hey, thanks for letting me know about this problem and welcome to the forum! The mod detects whether or not you're in a nebula by checking for the "Nebula" status effect, so my best guess is that the effect is altered by another mod you're using. Are you using any mods that might do something like that? Does the status effect look like this while you're in a nebula?
(https://i.imgur.com/PX0fgcZ.png)
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: PreConceptor on January 29, 2020, 06:42:25 PM
Great mod, love it. Any chance that an option could be added to require a Syncrotron Core in cargo to convert at full efficiency (or alternatively give a bonus to efficiency) similarly to the Supply Forging mod?
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on January 30, 2020, 04:02:54 PM
Yeah, there's a chance, but I'll have to think on it. I really like what Techpriest did with nanoforges and supply forging, but I think it might not work out as well in this case because the conversion ratio for fuel siphoning is more sensitive (since both resources involved are vital). A moderate bonus might work. I'm not too keen on encouraging players to clutter their inventories for the sake of a bonus, either. To be fair it's not a lot of clutter and it's fairly unavoidable, but it does seem a bit sloppy. I think I might hold off until the next release of Starsector to decide whether or not to add a feature like that, since I suspect things might change about how items like nanoforges and synchrotron cores work.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: J.BEAR on March 23, 2020, 02:15:25 PM
hi Sundog

love this small utility mod
i have a request... could you put an entry in OPTIONS.ini that allow me to use Heavy Machinery instead of Supplies to siphon fuel?
i imagine that you'd jury rig some heavy machinery to be dragged outside of your ship for this task, it gets damaged and needs replacement after a while from all the particle and micro asteroid bombardment.

(also im almost stranded on the edge of the map running low on supplies... i'd rather take apart the heavy machinery lying around for spare parts)

thanks dawg
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on March 25, 2020, 03:48:01 PM
Hey, glad you like the mod, and welcome to the forum! I'll take a look to see how complicated it would be to make the consumed resource configurable. I don't foresee any issues, but you never know, so no promises!
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: J.BEAR on March 25, 2020, 10:43:08 PM
I'll take a look to see how complicated it would be to make the consumed resource configurable.

or just an alternative version download so you don't have to make it configurable, whichever is simplest
thanks man ;D
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Icosidodecahedron on May 11, 2020, 08:20:13 PM
Excellent mod, Sundog. I was skeptical when you first implemented it to work off of stars, because I didn't really dig the idea of equipping my whole fleet with Solar Shielding, but now I really, really enjoy the idea of having nebulae clouds being actually useful and not just "space mud". Tons of hydrogen and other frozen gases being left to waste, until now ;)

I was wondering if you would be willing to implement a conversion bonus for having a Synchrotron Core in your inventory (as in +50% or 100% more fuel per supply), similar to how Techpriest put in a bonus for having a corrupted or pristine nanoforge in Supply Forging. I just always find myself having more nanoforges and synchrotron cores than I need for my colonies, and if it works on a planet, why not on a space ship? If that's too cheaty or easy, you could try making a hullmod requirement for the bonus, by having a Phaeton, Prometheus, or any other tanker the size of a destroyer or bigger "house" the core in its hull, in exchange for more maintenance, larger crew requirement, or smaller fuel storage. That'll require mod detection and many more functions written though, so it's kind of a big hurdle.

These are all just suggestions of course, I'm not expecting anything. I would try writing something like this, but god do I hate Java, I can't even follow the modding tutorials posted on this forum on how to set up the JDK and library tailored for Starsector. I'm probably just dumb.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on May 13, 2020, 01:47:51 AM
Hey, thanks for the feedback! And, yeah, I've been very happy with the switch from red giants to nebulae.

Someone else requested Synchrotron Core interaction at one point. In fact, let me quote my response to them:
Yeah, there's a chance, but I'll have to think on it. I really like what Techpriest did with nanoforges and supply forging, but I think it might not work out as well in this case because the conversion ratio for fuel siphoning is more sensitive (since both resources involved are vital). A moderate bonus might work. I'm not too keen on encouraging players to clutter their inventories for the sake of a bonus, either. To be fair it's not a lot of clutter and it's fairly unavoidable, but it does seem a bit sloppy. I think I might hold off until the next release of Starsector to decide whether or not to add a feature like that, since I suspect things might change about how items like nanoforges and synchrotron cores work.
So it's not out of the question, but it's likely not something I'll add until later, if I decide to at all. You're absolutely right about the overabundance of nanoforges and synchrotron cores though. Hopefully that will improve with the next release of Starsector.

I would try writing something like this, but god do I hate Java, I can't even follow the modding tutorials posted on this forum on how to set up the JDK and library tailored for Starsector. I'm probably just dumb.
Eh, I've been doing stuff like this for over 15 years and I still sometimes struggle to set up build environments and wrap my head around bugs. Having an affinity for programming helps a lot, but I really think it's more about stubbornness and persistence (not to mention sufficient spare time).
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Icosidodecahedron on May 13, 2020, 07:32:02 PM
Someone else requested Synchrotron Core interaction at one point.
Yeah, I just saw that post as I was scrolling down. Feel like a clown right now for not reading through the thread entirely, but I'm glad someone had the same idea.
Eh, I've been doing stuff like this for over 15 years and I still sometimes struggle to set up build environments and wrap my head around bugs. Having an affinity for programming helps a lot, but I really think it's more about stubbornness and persistence (not to mention sufficient spare time).
Perhaps I will try getting back into it when I have spare time. I've got multiple things to finish, and it has been like that for months.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.3 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on May 13, 2020, 07:48:41 PM
Yeah, I just saw that post as I was scrolling down. Feel like a clown right now for not reading through the thread entirely, but I'm glad someone had the same idea.
Heh, no worries. Repeated requests are one of the best ways I can gauge demand, and I sure as hell don't expect anyone to read an entire mod thread before making a suggestion.

Perhaps I will try getting back into it when I have spare time. I've got multiple things to finish, and it has been like that for months.
Yeah, I hear ya. There's only so much we can do.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: Sundog on June 07, 2020, 04:09:17 PM
Fuel Siphoning 1.1.4 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=15272.0)

Fixed a problem that will cause Version Checker support to break on 1 June 2020
Fixed mod description still referring to "red giant stars" as the source of fuel rather than nebulae
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: saya39 on July 09, 2020, 09:38:29 AM
Hey, I realy like this mod you made. It's very cool and useful. May I translate it into Chinese and post it on The fossic which is a Chinese starsector forum?

And here is the address: https://www.fossic.org/ (https://www.fossic.org/)
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on July 09, 2020, 03:36:18 PM
Please do! And thank you  :)
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: saya39 on July 09, 2020, 06:36:03 PM
Thanks for the permission! Glad to translate a fantastic mod like this:)
When I finish I'll put the adress here too.

Edit: And here we are https://www.fossic.org/thread-1653-1-1.html (https://www.fossic.org/thread-1653-1-1.html)
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Anduin1357 on September 30, 2020, 07:33:21 AM
May I suggest that the mod instead siphons volatiles from nebulae and then a separate command to process volatiles to fuel, which would then be more efficient and effective with synchrotrons?

After all, canonically speaking, the raw material mined from gas giants is the Volatiles item, which has to be processed at a refinery. It may not be possible to directly use siphoned material from nebulae as fuel.

Additionally, being able to process from volatiles can synergize with Nexerelin, as that mod allows the player to mine gas giants for that resource, and this could also be an extension of that.

Lastly, it may make sense for siphoning to cause a further reduction in burn level, or require sneaking (burn level 2) to avoid accident as a balance to obtaining resources.



Heavy machinery could make more sense for consumption, as siphoning fuel has no explanation for consuming supplies that heavy machinery cannot replace. Accidents for burning full-speed through a nebula while siphoning can otherwise cause CR reductions and damage, which should serve as a drawback to the player and bring this in line with Nexerelin's mining feature.

Also, it may be prudent to disable fuel siphoning activation during emergency burns.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on October 01, 2020, 04:23:18 PM
Hey, thanks for the feedback! Unfortunately, it seems like you want this mod to be something completely different from what I want it to be. I do plan to make it more configurable in the future, but not to the extent required to make it work the way you want. If you're interested, you're welcome to use the source and assets of this mod to make your own.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Szasz on October 16, 2020, 04:40:17 AM
I endorse the idea and the execution is great at least ergonomically.
However I decided to abandon it because it no longer supports red giants and it is way too easy to get fuel. Something more immersive like hull mods or dedicated fuel processing ships would let me justify using this (maybe faster conversion speed based on how much of them is in use) but right now this feels like cheating and suffers from the same problem supply forging does (no scaling with fleet size).
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on October 18, 2020, 05:56:38 PM
Huh. Could you maybe describe how you're using the ability to make the game much easier? From the start I've been very careful to make sure fuel siphoning is only useful in two specific cases:
I think perhaps you're not aware that it's much cheaper to just buy fuel than to convert supplies to fuel using fuel siphoning (except at nebula systems, where it's about the same)

right now this feels like cheating and suffers from the same problem supply forging does (no scaling with fleet size).
Fuel conversion rate scales with your fleet's total fuel capacity, which is closely tied to fleet size.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Szasz on October 20, 2020, 02:30:35 AM
Huh. Could you maybe describe how you're using the ability to make the game much easier? From the start I've been very careful to make sure fuel siphoning is only useful in two specific cases:
  • When you have an emergency fuel shortage but have supplies to spare
  • When you're passing near certain points on the sector map (nebula systems) that can be used as fuel stops in order to avoid bringing along so many tankers, and thereby make the trip slightly more efficient
I think perhaps you're not aware that it's much cheaper to just buy fuel than to convert supplies to fuel using fuel siphoning (except at nebula systems, where it's about the same)
Hard to tell what would be important. During a journey I stop by a nebula blessed system and speed through a cloud with the ability turned on. Even non-dense nebulas fill up the tank goddamn fast, like in a fraction of a second or 1-2 seconds worst case.


right now this feels like cheating and suffers from the same problem supply forging does (no scaling with fleet size).
Fuel conversion rate scales with your fleet's total fuel capacity, which is closely tied to fleet size.
This could be it. I'm a packrat and installed the mod at about 5000 fuel capacity with a small fleet (right now its 11k but doesn't really matter since fuel is plenty, supply got scare with large scale battles due to nexerelin).
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on October 20, 2020, 07:31:21 PM
Siphon rate also scales with the current speed of your fleet, so slowing down while going through nebulae is a good way to more precisely control how many supplies you convert into fuel.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Szasz on October 21, 2020, 03:17:11 AM
Siphon rate also scales with the current speed of your fleet, so slowing down while going through nebulae is a good way to more precisely control how many supplies you convert into fuel.

I was aware of that and assumed the siphon rate would be balanced for the highest achievable burn rate of 20.
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.2 - Now more useful!
Post by: Sundog on March 29, 2021, 08:03:36 PM
Fuel Siphoning 1.2.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=15272.0)

Updated compatibility to Starsector version 0.95a
Added "fuelPriceMult" setting, thanks to new API improvements (it defaults to 1 - meaning no change from vanilla)
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Arcagnello on May 04, 2021, 10:49:42 AM
I'm building a modpack and this was a no-brainer! Thank you again for the amazing content you feed me graciously provide to the playerbase!
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on May 04, 2021, 04:06:12 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: [0.9.1a] Fuel Siphoning v1.1.4 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: JUDGE! slowpersun on May 12, 2021, 11:13:37 PM
I endorse the idea and the execution is great at least ergonomically.
However I decided to abandon it because it no longer supports red giants and it is way too easy to get fuel. Something more immersive like hull mods or dedicated fuel processing ships would let me justify using this (maybe faster conversion speed based on how much of them is in use) but right now this feels like cheating and suffers from the same problem supply forging does (no scaling with fleet size).

Agreed.  Alternatively, might be better to at least require a planet with volatiles instead of flying through a nebula (although admittedly this would basically ignore much of the work put into this mod).  Hull mod and volatiles required prolly best solution, but doubt anyone wants to do the work...
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: _Dividebyzero_ on May 13, 2021, 04:50:28 PM
I do personally like the idea of tying it to a hullmod. That avoids ergonomic issues (like having to carry items around with you) while also requiring some level of logistical sacrifice. The main issue with this mod is that it makes fuel supply essentially infinite--in the late game when you have several gas guzzlers, it becomes difficult to find enough fuel without specifically going to nachiketa or other fuel-producing colonies.

That being said, the options allow one to reasonably nerf the production without resorting to hullmods. The only other thing I would suggest is adding an option for a speed multiplier in the options.
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: lazloner on May 15, 2021, 03:37:22 AM
I couldn't find it asked in the thread (unless I'm extra blind today), but have you thought about making another mod for something along the lines of ore -> metal and other such? Thanks for the mod by the way.
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on May 15, 2021, 03:54:02 PM
The only other thing I would suggest is adding an option for a speed multiplier in the options.
Would you mind explaining why? Is it hard to control the conversion rate by changing the speed of the fleet sometimes?

I couldn't find it asked in the thread (unless I'm extra blind today), but have you thought about making another mod for something along the lines of ore -> metal and other such? Thanks for the mod by the way.
You're welcome!  ;D
I actually have considered making a mod that would enable things like that, although perhaps not in the way you're thinking. I have a lot of more important things to work on, so I probably won't ever get around to making it, but here are my notes on the idea:
Spoiler
Exploitable Planets   
   Surveyed planets allow certain interactions based on their characteristics (e.g. extracting commodities)
   Cost of interactions scales with hazard rating
   Some exploitable resources regenerate over time (with a delay before regeneration?)
   Others may require supplies to exploit, or may only be explited once
   May be exploited by other fleets preventing you from doing so?
   Syrvivors may be found on decivilized worlds and accepted as crew
   Facilities may be found on planets with ruins that allow...
      Fabricating supplies (Metals + Organics + Food)
      Refining ore
      Synthesizing fuel from volitiles
      These facilities allow infinite conversion at an inefficient conversion rate
   Intel would need to be made available for each surveyed planet in a way that makes it easy to find the type of interaction you need nearby
   Decivilized worlds require marines to safely exploit
[close]
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: lazloner on May 15, 2021, 08:39:35 PM
I couldn't find it asked in the thread (unless I'm extra blind today), but have you thought about making another mod for something along the lines of ore -> metal and other such? Thanks for the mod by the way.
You're welcome!  ;D
I actually have considered making a mod that would enable things like that, although perhaps not in the way you're thinking. I have a lot of more important things to work on, so I probably won't ever get around to making it, but here are my notes on the idea:
Spoiler
Exploitable Planets   
   Surveyed planets allow certain interactions based on their characteristics (e.g. extracting commodities)
   Cost of interactions scales with hazard rating
   Some exploitable resources regenerate over time (with a delay before regeneration?)
   Others may require supplies to exploit, or may only be explited once
   May be exploited by other fleets preventing you from doing so?
   Syrvivors may be found on decivilized worlds and accepted as crew
   Facilities may be found on planets with ruins that allow...
      Fabricating supplies (Metals + Organics + Food)
      Refining ore
      Synthesizing fuel from volitiles
      These facilities allow infinite conversion at an inefficient conversion rate
   Intel would need to be made available for each surveyed planet in a way that makes it easy to find the type of interaction you need nearby
   Decivilized worlds require marines to safely exploit
[close]

That sounds awesome. More use from ruins always sounds good to me.
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: _Dividebyzero_ on May 16, 2021, 01:16:40 AM
The only other thing I would suggest is adding an option for a speed multiplier in the options.
Would you mind explaining why? Is it hard to control the conversion rate by changing the speed of the fleet sometimes?

Mainly because more time spent harvesting = more supplies lost, but I realize that slowing it down might also make using the mod tedious. I suppose my main reservation against using this mod is that it feels like it adds a new choice with little downside (carry lots of supplies in order to transform into fuel along the way), and I would want it to in principle come with some downside to doing that. That said, the existing options allow the player to change the efficiency which is good enough of a tradeoff I think.
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on May 16, 2021, 07:42:38 AM
Yeah, the main trade off is in efficiency. 100 credits worth of supplies only yields 75 credits worth of fuel, unless you're in a nebula-type system, which are fairly rare. Reducing the rate of conversion would be a much less significant downside, unless it was reduced drastically (to the point of being tedious).
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: BaBosa on August 01, 2021, 07:17:43 PM
Hi, first I want to say thank you for this mod. It really helps extend my exploration trips especially combined with supply forging.
Just wondering if you can add an config option to get it to run even when not in a nebula though very inefficiently (say you catch interstellar gas). That’s just so if I’m only a little short of fuel but there’s no nebula in system and I don’t want to jump into another, I can just sacrifice more supplies to get the little bit needed.

Also, I don’t know if this is possible but is it easy to multiply the speed of conversion based on the number of ships in the fleet and their class? Like frigates + 2.5 destroyers + 4 cruisers + 10 capitals? That would help with scaling the speed for beginning and end game fleets.

Cheers  ;D
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Sundog on August 01, 2021, 09:25:56 PM
Hey, thanks for the kind words! Supply to fuel conversion rate scales linearly with the fleet's total fuel capacity rather than ship classes, and I don't see any reason to change that. Pretty sure it would be very easy to add a setting to allow siphoning without nebulae. Next time I'm digging in the code I'll take a look to see if that's the case and add that setting if so.
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: JUDGE! slowpersun on August 01, 2021, 09:59:50 PM
Hey, thanks for the kind words! Supply to fuel conversion rate scales linearly with the fleet's total fuel capacity rather than ship classes, and I don't see any reason to change that. Pretty sure it would be very easy to add a setting to allow siphoning without nebulae. Next time I'm digging in the code I'll take a look to see if that's the case and add that setting if so.

If you are going for realism (which may not matter, this game is generally pretty abstracted), you could always set it to allow fuel conversion waaay way out at the edge of systems, essentially past the edge of the heliosphere/heliopause in interstellar space.  How you would mark this on any arbitrary systems map... I couldn't say.  But basically would balanced by the fact that player would have to waste supplies burning out the edge of a system just to refuel.  It also doesn't really make any sense, since by that same logic a fleet could just refuel by getting really close to a sun instead, but up to you (since refueling close to sun would be a bad idea unless player has solar shielding hull mod).
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: BaBosa on August 01, 2021, 10:04:31 PM
You deserve it man/goodboy.
Ah that would explain why the refuelling feels a little slow to me. I take a lot less tankers than normal expecting to use fuel siphoning, only to shoot myself in the foot  :P
Thank you for looking at that. It’s always annoying being a little short.
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: JUDGE! slowpersun on August 03, 2021, 10:54:22 AM
Hey, thanks for the kind words! Supply to fuel conversion rate scales linearly with the fleet's total fuel capacity rather than ship classes, and I don't see any reason to change that. Pretty sure it would be very easy to add a setting to allow siphoning without nebulae. Next time I'm digging in the code I'll take a look to see if that's the case and add that setting if so.

If you are going for realism (which may not matter, this game is generally pretty abstracted), you could always set it to allow fuel conversion waaay way out at the edge of systems, essentially past the edge of the heliosphere/heliopause in interstellar space.  How you would mark this on any arbitrary systems map... I couldn't say.  But basically would balanced by the fact that player would have to waste supplies burning out the edge of a system just to refuel.  It also doesn't really make any sense, since by that same logic a fleet could just refuel by getting really close to a sun instead, but up to you (since refueling close to sun would be a bad idea unless player has solar shielding hull mod).

After finally bothering  to read this mod's change logs, I see that refueling at (red) stars was originally an option that was later dropped.  So never mind that, I guess.  Although I guess this does beg the following question:  Why is this not coded as unique hull mod that only goes onto fuel tanker ships?  Just curious, since mod seems to just add an ability, but I haven't really used it; so maybe I'm wrong...
Title: Re: [0.95a] Fuel Siphoning v1.2.0 - Convert supplies to fuel at nebulae
Post by: Zalpha on September 07, 2021, 03:28:58 AM
I had an idea for a mining mod that works the same as fuel siphoning but in that you travel through a dust cloud of an system ring and collect ore/minerals while doing so. It can be costly and inefficient but still a new way in which the player can mine.