Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: RawCode on December 16, 2018, 08:06:10 AM

Title: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on December 16, 2018, 08:06:10 AM
Well, entire game scaled to player level, as result, if you level up without getting new ships (or old ships), and especially if you level up non combat skills, game go harder and harder, hello oblivion in space.

Typical domain drone (not ship or carrier) that on level 1 throw bunch of dmod drones with faulty AI on level 15++ throw 8 cruiser drones in pristine condition with 20++ escort ships and best AI.
After some moment difference between different type of drone derelicts erased, both start to spawn drone deathball in pristine condition.

Dmods removed from all AI ships and replaced with officers, that unlimited for AI, especially noticable with luddic and pirate deathballs, that got officer for every ship after ~20th level of player.

Issue is downward spiral of leveling, after extermination of luddic space station deathball i got 11 levels instantly, from single combat (but this was really long combat) and lost "some" ships.
All quests, all bounties, all explorations miniquests, everything got adjusted for my "level", as result, game over, as there is no way to continue "frigate only" gameplay, and all "simple" content just phaseout from game entirely.

Such significant change of gameplay is immersion breaking, game should not break it's own lore and logic and give everyone ships in pristine condition just because player reached level X, same for officers and number of ships.
Entire game turned into deathball parade.

In "ships lost" part, i play ironman only and just accept defeat, as there is always way to recover, well, there is no way to recover after level X as there are no "easy" quests any more, and just moving around is pain, as all pirates and luds are deathballs now.


Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Grievous69 on December 16, 2018, 08:15:26 AM
There are always survey and analyze missions available, those require only fuel unless you're unlucky and end up in a Remnant system, but even then you can sneak around if you just have frigates. Now, I'm really curious, how the hell did you beat a deathfleet AND a station with only frigates? I can't see how you would pull that off without cheating since higher levels (when you actually can afford a big fleet) require far more exp than in the beginning.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Megas on December 16, 2018, 10:24:19 AM
I do not think it scales by level anymore (which was absurd), but it scales by time, and they scale up too fast.  Jump straight from 50k to mostly 150k and up fleets just before a year passes.  Alex will do something about it.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Alex on December 16, 2018, 10:50:01 AM
Yeah, just confirming there is no level scaling.

Also, the number of officers in AI fleets is indeed limited to 10 (+1 for the commander), if you're seeing more than that in a single fleet, that's a bug.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on December 16, 2018, 01:15:01 PM
Typical domain drone (not ship or carrier) that on level 1 throw bunch of dmod drones with faulty AI on level 15++ throw 8 cruiser drones in pristine condition with 20++ escort ships and best AI.
After some moment difference between different type of drone derelicts erased, both start to spawn drone deathball in pristine condition.
Domain drone fleets scale based on the number of domain drones you've salvaged, not your level. That little hyperwave pulse in the post-salvage description? That's an alarm, telling all the other domain drones to rev up their autofactories because there's a predator about.

Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on December 16, 2018, 07:09:40 PM
There are always survey and analyze missions available, those require only fuel unless you're unlucky and end up in a Remnant system, but even then you can sneak around if you just have frigates. Now, I'm really curious, how the hell did you beat a deathfleet AND a station with only frigates? I can't see how you would pull that off without cheating since higher levels (when you actually can afford a big fleet) require far more exp than in the beginning.

afflictor and tempest chain deploy (one ship at time), ludd ships that stay near station runout of CR and just swallow critical malfunctions doing nothing, preventing station from firing at you, as you can hide behind hulls from station fire and just score freeshots, as zero CR ships do not have shields or weapons.
and no, i not managed to finish station, as soon as i retreated from lone station (due to lack of CR), more deathballs spawned instantly and wiped my fleet.


Issue is not scaling itself, by level, time or amount of fleets destroyed, issue is overly agressive scaling, lone drones orbiting trash planet should not have deathball in pristine condition as guards.

And if taken amount of kills in account, it progress really fast from bunch of barely combat ready dmodded drones to pristine condition deathballs
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Thaago on December 16, 2018, 08:01:00 PM
Ummm but lets be honest here. Practically no amount of derelicts can challenge even a token fleet. They work well as nice light challenges for exploration fleets, but short of the mothership and battleship any player with a destroyer should be able to kill 10:1 odds with ease.

There are always survey and analyze missions available, those require only fuel unless you're unlucky and end up in a Remnant system, but even then you can sneak around if you just have frigates. Now, I'm really curious, how the hell did you beat a deathfleet AND a station with only frigates? I can't see how you would pull that off without cheating since higher levels (when you actually can afford a big fleet) require far more exp than in the beginning.

afflictor and tempest chain deploy (one ship at time), ludd ships that stay near station runout of CR and just swallow critical malfunctions doing nothing, preventing station from firing at you, as you can hide behind hulls from station fire and just score freeshots, as zero CR ships do not have shields or weapons.
and no, i not managed to finish station, as soon as i retreated from lone station (due to lack of CR), more deathballs spawned instantly and wiped my fleet.


Issue is not scaling itself, by level, time or amount of fleets destroyed, issue is overly agressive scaling, lone drones orbiting trash planet should not have deathball in pristine condition as guards.

And if taken amount of kills in account, it progress really fast from bunch of barely combat ready dmodded drones to pristine condition deathballs

That sounds horrifically boring.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on December 16, 2018, 09:31:09 PM
it is not fun to fight space bullet spounges spawned in swarms every time you try to loot derelict.

some quests should remain easy and fast no matter what your level is.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on December 17, 2018, 12:48:46 AM
Code
			float limit = 300f;
if (Entities.DERELICT_SURVEY_PROBE.equals(type)) {
limit = 60;
} else if (Entities.DERELICT_SURVEY_SHIP.equals(type)) {
limit = 90;
} else if (Entities.DERELICT_MOTHERSHIP.equals(type) || Entities.DERELICT_CRYOSLEEPER.equals(type)) {
limit = 150;
}

well, it's actually not related to level directly, or time itself, but lack of "decay" or any kind of system difficulty offset, makes it looks like level scaling.

also logic behind scaling depend on amount of ships destroyed, it spawn more ships and destroying more ships result in more scaling, maxing scale is very very fast.
also it does not have type limiter, making attacks on drones massive "no", as this will increase power of "better" loot sources and make attacks on mothership and cryosleeper much harder

there is no logic behind this mechanic, it's immersion breaking to assume, that only player loot derelicts and everyone else just fly around doing nothing

Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: nomadic_leader on December 17, 2018, 04:52:01 AM

well, it's actually not related to level directly, or time itself, but lack of "decay" or any kind of system difficulty offset, makes it looks like level scaling

Huh, didn't quite understand this or the code you posted. You mean it's related to the number of ships you, the player, have destroyed in the game?

Quote
there is no logic behind this mechanic, it's immersion breaking to assume, that only player loot derelicts and everyone else just fly around doing nothing

I agree with you there. It's a failure to create a world in which an early game player and a late-game player can both exist, and seek out meaningful challenges.

The conflicting, confused design goals of  the game may be to blame. It's sort of an open world game, and attracts a bunch of open world players who are disappointed with failures of immersion, and it's sort of a combat/ship collecting game, which attracts players who are disappointed with the open world stuff. Now it's sort of a strategy/colonizing game too.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on December 17, 2018, 03:47:45 PM
scaling should not punish player for playing.

i made testrun with drones, first 3 combats are okay, then instant jump to deathball with ships in perfect condition.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Alex on December 17, 2018, 04:24:13 PM
i made testrun with drones, first 3 combats are okay, then instant jump to deathball with ships in perfect condition.

It depends on how many derelict you've defeated so far, and is capped based on the derelict's size. For example, if you defeat the defenses of 10 survey probes in a row, you'll see a very gradual increase in strength for each. If you defeat the mothership, that'll cause a larger increase in strength across the board.

... which it sounds like you'd already figured out, based on your previous post?

and cryosleeper much harder

That is incorrect; the cryosleeper is not affected.


Huh, didn't quite understand this or the code you posted. You mean it's related to the number of ships you, the player, have destroyed in the game?

It's related to the number of derelict defenses you've defeated, specifically. As you defeat more, they spread the word and build up more drones using the resources available. That's what the "hyperwave signal" message is about.



Frankly, though, hmm. Derelicts - pristine or not, in large numbers or not (as Thaago already mentioned) - do not pose that much of a threat. And there's always probes and such that are entirely undefended. And there's a plethora of other ways to get back on your feet. Missions, bar events, rummaging through Remnant systems in stealth mode, and so on.

The state of the game world changes as the game goes on, you know? If you're knocked that far down and want *all* of the early-game options to be as effective as they were to begin with, then starting a new game is probably the way to go. Otherwise, again, there's a lot of options available, it's just not the same identical set as at the start of the game.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on December 17, 2018, 09:28:51 PM
I try to "play" EA games without cheats and without reading sources\wiki\spoilers.
This about "feedback", at this moment game push player forward and does not care, is player ready or not.
Not really sandbox logic, but keep game interesting much longer.

This perfectly fine, if i can beat deathball with single frigate, i won't be happy with sudden degrated fleet.
Same for bounty quests and other content, it's just unfun to beat something, that can't fight back.

But situation changes moment you player got wiped, as there are no fun means of recovery, just moving around and taking 80k for scanning derelicts, without trying to loot said derelicts is not really fun.
Not fun at all, especially when you pooled everything into combat skills.

Some kind of difficulty decay if you left things alone will solve situation.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: nomadic_leader on December 18, 2018, 01:06:40 AM

Frankly, though, hmm. Derelicts - pristine or not, in large numbers or not (as Thaago already mentioned) - do not pose that much of a threat. And there's always probes and such that are entirely undefended. And there's a plethora of other ways to get back on your feet. Missions, bar events, rummaging through Remnant systems in stealth mode, and so on.

The state of the game world changes as the game goes on, you know? If you're knocked that far down and want *all* of the early-game options to be as effective as they were to begin with, then starting a new game is probably the way to go. Otherwise, again, there's a lot of options available, it's just not the same identical set as at the start of the game.


Ok, I see what you mean. Yea maybe this case isn't such a big deal. Though I wouldn't want there to be too much level scaling in the game.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: diegoweiller on December 23, 2018, 04:11:29 AM
Me think its good e.e its even dumb to just run over domain farming cores... this way you get progression at least. and i haven't seen so far an AI fleet i could not deal with...
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Agalyon on December 25, 2018, 02:31:55 AM
I haven't extensively tested it myself, but just throwing my two cents in, I do definitely think it should scale, but I also think it might scale too hard right now. The idea about having a limit on how fast it can boom up and having some kind of decay in place as well is a great idea. This isn't super relevant but I remember in older versions as well, bounties and whatnot would get totally out of control insanely quickly once you started tearing into them. What RawCode said about the scaling spawning more ships which causes you to kill more, and make the scaling rise even faster is absolutely true, and I don't like it at all. I'm not saying you should be able to play the game in frigate mode forever, but there reaches a point when It feels like you almost have to run a huge deathball and keeping low is no longer a real option.

I think this is all important because it seems like a lot of the design choices have been moving toward this idea of choosing how much of a splash you want to make and how large of a fleet you want to run with the sensor ranges and burn speed changes and whatnot. Having the scaling jump that hard that fast kind of defeats the purpose in my eyes.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: iamseron on December 28, 2018, 10:14:01 PM
If there is not a lore-related reason for the game world to scale in any way this is bad (albeit common) design. If nothing else there should at least be some kind of story fluff to make sense that ship availability, fleet sizes, enemy strength, etc. mysteriously increase (instead of decrease) due to time passage and enemies killed. Afaik it is actually the opposite in the lore- that after the fall of the Domain resources are scattered and everyone is fighting for the dwindling remains.

There should definitely be changes in the game as it progresses but those changes should be consistent and logical within the framework of the game lore. Why can a bounty hunter with two tiny ships become a fleet commander in one cycle but not repeat the same feat in the next cycle? What fundamentally changes to where this is no longer a possibility and what is the in-game justification of those pathways being blocked? Why is there an "early game" and "late game" instead of just one sandbox game?

Ultimately it comes down to the breaking of immersion and turning the game into an unsatisfying endless grind. My preferred alternative to scaling would be to set up robust systems that are not dependent on the player's actions, inaction, time played, etc. A good example of this are the factions and zombies in SPAZ2 which exist and fight and grow independent of the player. Zombie infestations can be triggered and thwarted by the player OR the NPCs who can then make their own go of running amok. Most importantly there are a plethora of toggles and options to make the game suit the player which is always very satisfying.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Alex on December 28, 2018, 10:37:46 PM
What you're describing is pretty much how it works. That is, there are good backstory reasons for stuff to happen how it does. As just one example. attacking REDACTED drones triggers self-defense subroutines and, being part of a connected swarm, they re-activate and use some of their mass/resources to produce additional defenses. There are nods to this in-game, if the player cares to read some of the interaction text and make some inferences.

(Hi, and welcome to the forum, btw!)
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: iamseron on December 28, 2018, 10:38:40 PM
Tbh I just got the game two days ago and reading about scaling really put me off. I'm not 100% familiar with the game systems yet and I was afraid of what I might run into. I'm relieved it isn't what I thought it was.

However, I have noticed that the bounty target fleets are increasing in size and strength as my game progresses. This seems like the kind of pointless grindy scaling which I dislike so much. Is that not what is occuring? Why aren't there weak and strong pirates at all times instead of ones scaled to where I am in the game?
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Alex on December 28, 2018, 10:52:37 PM
Ah, yeah, I can see how it would do that. Also, to clarify, there's no level-based scaling. There *is* some time-based growth (i.e. some - not all - pirates get stronger with time, due to the Sector's overall downward spiral backstory-wise, and of course this is desirable for the mechanics.)

(It's just one of those things where you can decide to approach it by finding ways to think about it that make it make sense - or not. I think for a sandbox it's going to be that way almost no matter what, within reason, anyway. I don't know if that makes sense - like, you're basically creating a story in your head as you play, right? And you can make it make sense unless something is just really absurd, and probably even then. The game should try to make this not too difficult, but there'll always be ways to make it *not* make sense.

In any case, I hope you enjoy the game :) Also, my apologies for spoiling some of the REDACTED stuff.)
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: From a Faster Time on December 29, 2018, 10:04:45 AM
In any case, I hope you enjoy the game :) Also, my apologies for spoiling some of the REDACTED stuff.)
Why not use a spoiler tag? :)
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on December 29, 2018, 09:57:30 PM
issue is not scaling itself (kay this is not level based, but looks like level based anyway, ever if you read all lore and dialogs carefully, it still looks like level based) , issue is spiky and jiggy nature of scaling, i will be happy for drone stuff scale much higher, and eventually spawn "dat volandemort REDACTED stuff" as part of defense for typical probes, this will be quite funny, and i will be happy to find insane deathball final boss on cryosleeper with multiple 30 stacks waiting for hour long battle with multiple turns.

but...

It should scale much smoother, it may scale faster and higher, but scaling should be smooth, probably game should first maximize number and size of ships, and only after that start to remove dmods, transition from bunch of heavy dmodded drones to stack of cruisers in pristine condition can be single combat, as script record deployment cost of defeated ships, and that result in exponent growth, but it should be logarithm instead.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: diegoweiller on March 19, 2019, 01:42:35 PM
Just managing to play the last update and i got a recommendation: instead of scaling named bounties over time or lvl, do it over fleet points. would also like to understand those, how is each sheep evaluated?
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on March 20, 2019, 04:59:10 AM
it will be obvilion, literally, and getting more ships will make you weaker...

i hate scaling, just hate it, this is cheap and crappy design move,
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: angrytigerp on March 20, 2019, 09:50:58 AM
it will be obvilion, literally, and getting more ships will make you weaker...

i hate scaling, just hate it, this is cheap and crappy design move,

It's not "cheap and crappy", it's a design choice by Alex. The alternative is having "stronger" presences in certain sectors, and for me that's not compelling because while I appreciate the sort of linear advancement of challenge the first time I play, in subsequent play throughs I feel I'd get bored and feel like it's a grind to get through the "early stages" until I'm at a point where pirates, for example, hold no threat to me.

Once you cross those thresholds, it becomes a chore to have to keep fending off little d-modded fleets challenging you. The game, being meant to have a dynamic sector evolution, isn't supposed to be linear in this fashion.

Ideally, and hopefully as Alex tweaks things in subsequent releases we get to this point, factions will build up organically and it'll make sense to have three thirty ship fleets orbiting a homeworld, joining in when you do a station assault. Until then, I like how you're consistently challenged, because let's face it: once you have ten fully skilled officers and have full skills yourself, even if skills aren't as OP as before, pretty much the only challenge comes from the enemy overwhelming you with numbers.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Vayra on March 20, 2019, 09:58:49 AM
RE: Scaling being "too fast", "too hard"... You know, that's definitely not the same experience that I (or many others, judging by the two-three other active threads right now about how Starsector as a whole and Domain drones specifically might be too easy) have had with this game. ;)

In fact the only things that I can think of that scale are:

edit: note i am referring to scaling with time, in the case of bounties and pirate bases. nothing scales with level
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: mehgamer on March 20, 2019, 10:41:39 AM
Either it scales, and people will always be unhappy with the rate because of the sheer sensitivity to it all (big fleets are so exponentially more deadly than small ones, and player fleets fluctuate in size in a matter of weeks ingame even though the campaign features take months to tick through things), or it doesn't scale, and early game is torture until late game is mindlessly easy.

Hell, late game is already kind of mindless in vanilla and this is one of the main problems mods and many of the base game updates have hoped to resolve over time, to varying success.  But at its core this game is a fleet bashing simulator, eventually you're just going to have a big fleet and will bash it against the biggest fleets in the area, there's no real way to resolve that currently.  At least that I know of.

Seriously though people complain about scaling, not scaling, the rate of scaling, and while they're all valid ideas to have (I mean, any feedback is on some level useful) it's also a complaint I hear a lot without solutions.

Also, honestly, if you want my take?  I can go from one of the starting options in vanilla to having enough ships to take on the biggest capital ship tier pirate bounties in like two hours.  Heck, if I do the apogee start I can do it nearly instantly - a pristine apogee is worth three pirate cruisers, you just need a few semi durable escort ships for your murder machine.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Alex on March 20, 2019, 10:56:28 AM
(Obligatory "there isn't any meaningful level scaling in the game" every time this comes back, to avoid confusion.)
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: angrytigerp on March 20, 2019, 11:21:54 AM
(Obligatory "there isn't any meaningful level scaling in the game" every time this comes back, to avoid confusion.)

Shhhh! Who do you think you are, the developer? /Sarcasm

Yeah but like you said (I mean, you did design the system after all...), The only real "scaling" is in bounties and such, and it'd be boring as hell to me to take my 30-ship capital death fleet to go stomp on a couple deserters in some frigates. It's just silly. I like that you get harder and more difficult bounties as you progress, as they present a means of "advancing" gameplay-wise if you don't want to fight a Hegemony deathball over Jangala or something.

If the few things that do scale didn't feel organic, I might have a bit more gripes with it, but my in-universe explanation is you're more likely to be given details on bounties involving people with full capital-led fleets as you gain more fame and notoriety in the sector. Or like, your comms officer doesn't even bother sending up bounty info about 300 DP fleets when they know you're only 100 DP.

Quote
But at its core this game is a fleet bashing simulator, eventually you're just going to have a big fleet and will bash it against the biggest fleets in the area, there's no real way to resolve that currently.  At least that I know of.

Very true. Perhaps we could get dial-a-condition starts, where you can choose from a list of end goals ("Conquer 3 Hegemony-owned colonies of size 7 or greater by year X", "Own # of colonies size 7 or greater by year Y", ) something to encourage "domination" or "economic" win conditions.

Right now, you kind of have to set your own goals or "win conditions", otherwise yeah, it's "race to get a full 30-ship capital fleet and you win".
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Alex on March 20, 2019, 11:45:14 AM
The only real "scaling" is in bounties and such,

<checks patch notes> as of .9, there's no level scaling in bounties, either - it was a small component of their strength before, but now doesn't factor in at all. They do get stronger over time, though.

So: there isn't any level scaling in the game at all at this point.

but my in-universe explanation is you're more likely to be given details on bounties involving people with full capital-led fleets as you gain more fame and notoriety in the sector.

(Yep, that's a good way to think about it in-fiction, imo!)
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: angrytigerp on March 20, 2019, 12:19:04 PM
The only real "scaling" is in bounties and such,

<checks patch notes> as of .9, there's no level scaling in bounties, either - it was a small component of their strength before, but now doesn't factor in at all. They do get stronger over time, though.

So: there isn't any level scaling in the game at all at this point.

So then, correct me if I'm wrong: if I just Went Dark, took a couple freighters full of supplies to a corner of a system to stay out of the way, and shift-fast-forwarded a few years, and then flew back to the active parts of the sector, there'd be a bunch of Pirate battleship fleets roaming the sector?
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Alex on March 20, 2019, 12:24:56 PM
No, because pirates don't have battleships in .9? :)

But, yes, pirates would get appreciably stronger if you did that. There are other details, though, so "time has an impact" shouldn't be conflated with "time is the only thing that has an impact".
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: angrytigerp on March 20, 2019, 01:41:15 PM
No, because pirates don't have battleships in .9? :)

But, yes, pirates would get appreciably stronger if you did that. There are other details, though, so "time has an impact" shouldn't be conflated with "time is the only thing that has an impact".

Sorry, was just equating large fleets with battleships. General point I was making was they'd have big fleets and/or bigger ships than some *** in a single Hound trying to stick you up.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: diegoweiller on March 25, 2019, 12:30:46 PM
The only real "scaling" is in bounties and such,

<checks patch notes> as of .9, there's no level scaling in bounties, either - it was a small component of their strength before, but now doesn't factor in at all. They do get stronger over time, though.

So: there isn't any level scaling in the game at all at this point.

but my in-universe explanation is you're more likely to be given details on bounties involving people with full capital-led fleets as you gain more fame and notoriety in the sector.

(Yep, that's a good way to think about it in-fiction, imo!)

If there is no scaling explain to me please, why named bounties are always a lot stronger than you?
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2019, 12:34:19 PM
There's no level based scaling. The strength of the named bounties gradually increases - up to a certain maximum - as you complete more and more of them.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: diegoweiller on March 25, 2019, 01:13:16 PM
But even without doing a single bounty they keep getting harder? intended?
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2019, 01:17:03 PM
Yeah, they also get slightly more difficult - up to a fairly low cap - with time passing.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: diegoweiller on March 25, 2019, 01:31:39 PM
Thanks, finally i get it :P I always wondered why the bounties were so hard if you started as spacer  :P
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Momaw on March 25, 2019, 11:20:00 PM
There basically is scaling, but Alex indicated, it's not level. It's time and success. Which is counter to how some people will want to play the game, right?  If the game makes harder and harder encounters the longer you play and the more successful you are, what room is there for players who only want to run a micro-fleet of 2 or 3 ships?  Isn't this system forcing players to become admirals, when they might prefer the idea of being a very small, very elite force instead of an armada?

I'm honestly not trying to be hostile here, just asking how design meets gameplay meets player dreams. I think some people want Battlestar Galactica and other people want Firefly, and I'm just wondering whether there is enough room (in a constantly upgrading universe) for small time operators.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Alex on March 26, 2019, 07:31:26 AM
Well, there's plenty of stuff to do if you want to stay small-time for RP reasons - including low-level bounties that pop up fairly frequently irrespective of the overall "bounty level" you've reached by doing them. And bounties are probably the thing that ramps up the most (and a lot of things don't at all), so I wouldn't really equate "bounties ramp up" with "nothing to do if you're small time", if that makes sense.

Beyond that, different playstyles will lead to different things being viable, you know? So even if bounties in particular weren't accessible if you stayed small, that would have to be looked at in the context of what else is accessible, not by itself. And, as mentioned, they do remain accessible to a degree.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: vagrant on April 02, 2019, 09:43:37 AM
I'd really like the idea of soft/hard power capped content that forces players to optimize their fleet and loadouts to tackle, especially against unfavorable odds.

This could provide other fleet optimization goals besides than building the largest strategically viable fleet and using it to crush the biggest enemies.

Bounties or missions could have fleet point, fleet value, sensor profile, burn level, ship class, or tech level restrictions, giving players another thing to consider besides enemy fleet makeup. Maybe even a combination of these restrictions and an additional reward based on the severity.

The restrictions could carry some flavor about why the special conditions are necessary to access the mission/bounty, and it would directly incentivize play at different sizes and configurations.

Not every mission needs restrictions, but having some restricted condition missions generate could open up some sort of scaled content without limiting the player to that play style accross the entire playthrough.


Example might be:

Pirate assasination
Conditions:
Limited sensor profile
Burn 8 required

If a player fleet doesn't meet the requirements, the bounty wouldn't spawn when they jump to the system, and they'd need to rezone with the correct fleet properties.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: TaLaR on April 02, 2019, 11:39:00 AM
@vagrant

These are 4th-wall-breaking mechanics, so please no. Current bounties are already problematic in this regard - why are they just waiting to be killed at convenient locations? Aren't pirate supposed to be a bit more proactive? How did they even get a bounty being that passive? They just don't look as part of any meaningful simulation.

Target fleets could try to be stealthy/evasive (run from player) etc, but strictly within what game rules normally allow. So a small fleet of fast frigates running silent and avoiding the player is a valid challenge (assuming player gets at least rough location where to look), but despawning/refusing to spawn on some hard condition is not.

Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: vagrant on April 02, 2019, 02:59:05 PM
@vagrant

These are 4th-wall-breaking mechanics, so please no. Current bounties are already problematic in this regard - why are they just waiting to be killed at convenient locations? Aren't pirate supposed to be a bit more proactive? How did they even get a bounty being that passive? They just don't look as part of any meaningful simulation.

Target fleets could try to be stealthy/evasive (run from player) etc, but strictly within what game rules normally allow. So a small fleet of fast frigates running silent and avoiding the player is a valid challenge (assuming player gets at least rough location where to look), but despawning/refusing to spawn on some hard condition is not.


call them what you want, but I think optional challenges with artificially imposed limitations add value to the otherwise open nature of Starsector's campaign sandbox. I don't think additional conditions are immersion breaking in any significant way more than current intel.

Also, my point is that these encounters should encourage different play styles. The flavor should follow the gameplay, not the other way around. Starsector's static missions set up situations that can't always be rolled over with superior firepower or numbers. In this way, I want to crib the interesting conditions the static missions present, while adding SOME elements of player agency afforded by the sandbox campaign.


I'm inspired here by how Heat Signature adds wrinkles to otherwise standard missions for additional challenge, but still lets the player choose how to attack the problem based on the equipment they've collected across the game so far.

I think you have a separate issue with how the bounty implementation doesn't match the flavor that goes along with it.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on April 05, 2019, 10:59:14 PM
"level scaling" is innate issue of all games with "levels" or other means of progression and non linear game play.

main goal to prevent situation, when over leveled player visit super boss and one shot him effortlessly.

at same time, it eliminates any reason to level at all, no matter how hard you try, how long you grind, nothing will change, you managed to get double DPS, enemies have double health to balance.
In worst case, you will have double DPS but enemies may have tenfold more HP and this result in "oblivion scaling".

Drones are "oblivion scaling", more drones you kill (and get levels as result, you may not defeat drones without getting XP), harder it becomes, rewards stay the same.

Same with bounties and many other things, that may depend on time, amount of quests or other factors, but perceived by player as level scaling.

Providing random power derelicts, bounties and stuff without any relationship to player's progress is quite fun, good old Gothic vibes.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Megas on April 06, 2019, 07:44:24 AM
I remember playing a console shump in the '90s (basically a Raiden/Gradius clone) where if the player powered-up too much, the enemies got much more firepower and turned the game into a bullet hell.  It was easier to play with basic or mild power-up, instead of trying to grab all the power-ups then die faster because it was too hard to dodge more and bigger and faster bullets.

As for 0.9.1, I hope the time scaling is slower.  Right now, I abandon named bounties soon after early game (about late in 206) because they upgrade to big ships while I am still stuck with ragtag fleet of destroyers led by starter Apogee (and I do not kill enough bounties for them to scale to cruisers or bigger, so it is clearly time).
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: TJJ on April 06, 2019, 02:53:48 PM
I haven't played it for a long time, but I think Transcendence (https://store.steampowered.com/app/364510/Transcendence/) did an excellent job of scaling its difficulty.

Gating off content (literally! behind jump gates!) really helped stop the player accidentally encountering something they were unprepared for, while simultaneously giving them a sense of progression as they advanced beyond the opponents of each system.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on April 06, 2019, 09:38:08 PM
in most games "beef gates" and area levels makes absolutely no sense and outright immersion breaking.

some games outright silly with scaling, Witcher 3 is outstanding instanse of absurd scaling, your legendary witcher who killed many powerful monsters will have really bad time with random highwayman just because that highwayman is "high level".

how damned roadside robber with rusty knife can be high level at all?
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Euphytose on April 07, 2019, 06:53:10 AM
I only like "zone blocking" if that zone is a secret and you need an item to unlock it, and you find some really beefy enemies in it.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Megas on April 07, 2019, 10:27:15 AM
@ TJJ:  Transcendence has changed much over the years, including difficulty.  (1.01 is different than 1.5, and even 1.7 and 1.8 are different.)  Even now, a few more long-standing mechanics (like EMP) may get overhauled.  Also, many of the worst overpowered game-breakers (that I gleefully exploited) have been toned down or removed.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: intrinsic_parity on April 07, 2019, 12:28:37 PM
Getting access to new areas where you can fight new enemies that are stronger than previous enemies (with better rewards) is not immersion breaking or unfun imo. That feels like natural progression that you have control over in the sense that you choose when to go on and fight the stronger enemies, but you are also prevented from accidentally fighting enemies that are far too strong for you. I agree that weak enemies becoming stronger to match you without any explanation is immersion breaking and lazy game design. I really don't like how the derelicts scale right now, exploration begins to feel like a boring grind to try and find intel about better loot at some point.

With regards to bounties. I think the system could be reworked to be more interesting. I'd much rather see bounty fleets wandering around 'in the wild' rather than always orbiting around a specific planet. The player could accidentally stumble across them (giving the player a reason to interact with random fleets rather than ignoring everything), or the player could obtain intel that a bounty fleet will be in a certain place at a certain time. The the player has to time and ambush the fleet (while potentially avoiding authorities and such). It would feel much more like 'hunting' bounties and less like going to the bank to get money out of the atm. Instead of just having a list of bounties (and their locations) in intel, you could talk to people on planets and get hints and maybe there could be a bounty hunters guild that you can join to get better intel etc.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: diegoweiller on April 07, 2019, 12:33:07 PM
Also, time scaling doesn't work well if you are building your fleet slowly, there is no way you can beat 3-4 cruisers with a destroyer.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: dkuang on April 08, 2019, 03:20:16 PM
I've honestly felt Starsector felt too easy after you've updated your fleet, both in size and types of ships. Throw in the fact that the other factions don't really upgrade their colonies at the rate the player does, once I've set up even one colony I can literally obliterate almost the entirety of the games factions with my fleet, let alone when I've established 3-4 colonies and amassed an immense assembly of ships. Don't get me wrong, some of the invasion fleets I've encountered when I had one colony were pretty crazy, size wise, but with an orbital station and me sitting my fleet along with my patrol fleets at the planet, it was defend-able.

I'm ok with scaling, keeps the game challenging, but would prefer it be done realistically such as the faction actually has resources to do such a thing. Like if the Persian League only has 3 colonies left, all of which are sitting at lev 5 with basically low market shares in most of it's productions, and no military colonies at all. They shouldn't be able to send a massive invasion fleet of like 120 ships with no D mods over my way every 5 months.

I understand some people are bringing up playing the game small scale, like having a small fleet with no colonies, etc. Which is fine I suppose, but considering Starsector is built on the idea of factions, fleets, and centered around combat for almost everything you do. It doesn't seem to make sense, gameplay wise, to not be establishing a faction or joining one in hopes of increasing your foot hold in the game.

Either or, after many restarts, replays, and faction choices made I do enjoy the game with all the mods thrown in but after a few hours of playing I still feel way over powered compared to the AI of the game. I just feel the AI needs to upgrade their colonies more and there needs to be other challenges out there instead of just being thrown invasion fleets day in and day out by the AI. Sure, Ludic Path terrorist cells, Kadur Remnant, and Pirate raiders throw in some spice here and there but after a while they're just minor hiccups that are easily taken care of.

I do like the idea of wandering fleets, bounties, and maybe even a massive invading enemy faction like they had in Stellaris as well that's triggered once the player amasses a certain amount of colonies or strength. *shrug* I'm down for more content and more variations in the games difficulty and challenging engagements.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on April 09, 2019, 12:03:37 AM
gates are stupid...

kill 10 rats before getting access to area where you must kill 20 wolves?
just to get access to area with bears?

if player have mad personal skills and want to visit big bad on level 1, why not?

just imagine if starsector prevent you from entering redacted systems before some silly quest or arbitrary level, is this fun?
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Gotcha! on April 18, 2019, 02:27:04 AM
Speaking of scaling:

If you ignore pirates long enough, are they supposed to grow out of control? And with out of control I mean: Getting jumped by ~6 full-sized pirate fleets when entering one of their sectors? (And having several more roaming around in that sector.) And seeing 3 of these giant fleets near the entrance of my own sector?

Reading through this topic, it's my understanding that this at least has nothing to do with my own level/size of fleet/income etc. But I am wondering how players are supposed to win against these kind of odds.
I'd expect that I could avoid their growth by destroying their stations wherever they pop up, but I feel like I'm the only one fighting them, and I feel I hardly have the time to explore due to having to put out small fires everywhere to stop them from getting bigger.

Sidenote: Will later versions of the game have some ability to make big jumps through the system, so you can get around faster to quench these fires? Perhaps through activating these inactive gates?
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: goduranus on April 18, 2019, 03:52:22 AM
The "Transverse Jump" ability you get from the technology skill tree helps significantly with getting around faster, I find, cuz you can skip slowboating to jump points and enter hyperspace directly.
And carrier spam takes care of the pirates, I destroyed 616 pirate ships in one battle, pretty proud of myself, been bragging about it all over the place :P
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on April 18, 2019, 04:05:12 AM
pirates have semi random mass spawn events, also game have lazy garbage collection, if you stay in same area for long fleets may accumulate, but when you move away they despawn.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Megas on April 18, 2019, 05:51:40 AM
If pirates are not dealt with soon after they cause "pirate activity" in a system, they will spawn a huge swarm of fleets and send it to the target system.  There are so many that small colonies in a system will probably get raided successfully and lose stability.

Six full pirate fleets?  It can get worse than that.  One time, my fleet got jumped by more than a dozen fleets as my fleet gated in, and it had to fight 300+ pirate ships.  Also, goduranus posts about his Drovers vs. 600+ pirate ships.

Raids and Pather terrorism cause unrest that slowly recovers (1 every three months).  If that colony gets hit too much and too soon, its stability can reach zero and may decivilize soon after.  If you do nothing to stop pirates and pather bases, they will decivilize some core worlds eventually.  You need to destroy pirate and pather bases (that target core worlds instead of you) if you want core worlds to have enough stability for you to raid yourself (for blueprints) or simply for peak income from exports.

And yes, the sector is always on fire, especially after you build your colonies.  You are the only one putting out the fires, and it gets annoying because there is not much time to do fun stuff (explore, do quests, raid for blueprints, or disrupt few choice industries) before player needs to rush to put out yet another fire.  There are plenty of fires to deal with even if you can ignore expeditions (due to gratuitous colony defenses flawlessly blocking major factions).  This is why I try to get burn 20 on even my multi-capital endgame fleet because the game wants the player to put out all of the fires.

It does not seem possible to wipe out pirate and pather bases.  It seems like another base will pop up elsewhere as soon as you destroy one.

What I like to see in later versions is to send autonomous fleets to deal with problems because the player is only one fleet, but there are always several fires to put out at the same time.  Player can only be at one of those fires at any given time.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on April 18, 2019, 06:11:37 AM
zerg pirates is confirmed bug that already fixed for next version, but, imho, this is cool feature that add attrition fights and non conventional means to defeat.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: goduranus on April 18, 2019, 11:05:01 AM
Hey there's a game feature suggestion!
What if instead of pirates, occasionally you'd get massive invasion fleets of hundreds of ships, crewed by hundreds of thousands of innocent but heavily armed refugees that want to resettle on your planet? They left their own planet presumably because it got destabilize by some sort of natural disaster or terrorist attack, like the one that happened on Mairaath. If you shoot them down, it might hurt relations with the more humanitarian factions, but if they get through, they'll add a decivilized population modifier to the planet.

I got this idea because pirate raids are too huge, too vast and expensive to just be raids for resource. With a hundred thousand crewmen coming in over 500 ships, they'd rather look like desperate refugees trying to forcibly find a new home, but nobody wants them because all the colonies have finite resources. For the refugees, the matter is simple, their old world was gone, and either they force through or they die of starvation. For the target colony, the matter is simple too, the next food shipment isn't due for 3 months, if they let the refugees in, a hundred thousand of their own people will starve.

I remember reading Julius Caesar faced this problem of Germanic tribes trying to flee into Gallic territory(after a failed harvest or sth), but the said territory supposedly couldn't support more people, so Caesar had to battle a vast number of refugees to stop their migration.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Thaago on April 18, 2019, 11:34:38 AM
Caesar's response was also fairly consistent with the more genocidal among us, only in real life instead of bits... ancient times were rough.

It is sometimes mind boggling the shear number of pirates being killed in those fleets, considering that the population of the sector really isn't that large.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Gotcha! on April 18, 2019, 01:07:07 PM
Thanks for all your responses. It's nice to know that those gigantic pirate fleets will be a thing of the past (although I understand why the elite among you like the challenge ;)).

@goduranus: Yeah, I see you bragging about it everywhere on the forum. So I guess you're doing a great job spreading the word. :P
I've found some of these autonomous fighter things today, and they're quite a treat!
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Megas on April 18, 2019, 06:36:55 PM
Part of the fix for less pirate ships is they get bigger ships instead of more ships (they should honor the 30 ship fleet cap per fleet)!  Pirates will get a capital ship of their own, a modified Atlas.  (Pathers will get a mod Prometheus.)
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Thaago on April 18, 2019, 06:54:13 PM
Part of the fix for less pirate ships is they get bigger ships instead of more ships (they should honor the 30 ship fleet cap per fleet)!  Pirates will get a capital ship of their own, a modified Atlas.  (Pathers will get a mod Prometheus.)

I am looking forward to this very very much.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: RawCode on April 18, 2019, 10:41:33 PM
they got special capital, there is blog post about it.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Thaago on April 19, 2019, 11:19:50 AM
With fewer frigates in the pirate fleets, my loadout choices are probably going to change. Right now I really like a dual phase lance Eagle as a mid game player flagship because it is so good at popping frigates - one burst from the autocannons with 50%+ misses followed by a lance shot will pop most pirate frigates in one go (and if not, they are overloaded and stripped of armor so the autocannons will finish them). When the pirates start bringing capitals I may need to change things up!

(Or I could just buy some torpedo bombers, that tends to work against capitals well enough.)
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: goduranus on April 21, 2019, 12:09:30 AM
How did you set up the dual phase lance Eagle? i find the Phase Lances too short ranged compared to autocannon, and enemies will just keep out of range. Did you have to put Advanced Optics on it?
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Megas on April 21, 2019, 09:04:24 AM
I would use only Phase Lance with Advanced Optics on Falcon or Eagle.  Because those are set far back from ballistics, I would consider using Arbalests instead of Heavy Autocannon, for the ranges to match better.  Of course, Heavy Autocannon has better DPS.  Then again, the flux spikes from Phase Lances would probably make the efficient Arbalest more appealing.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Igncom1 on April 21, 2019, 09:13:05 AM
Even with a long range load out on the eagle/falcon, short ranged lances can be nice for finishing targets up close when knocked offline by kinetics. And with their speed they can easily pull it off whenever needed.
Title: Re: Talkin bout birds
Post by: Thaago on April 21, 2019, 03:00:31 PM
How did you set up the dual phase lance Eagle? i find the Phase Lances too short ranged compared to autocannon, and enemies will just keep out of range. Did you have to put Advanced Optics on it?

My current build is 3xAutocannons, 1xIon Beam, 2xPhase Lance, and 5xPd Lasers, Advanced Optics and ITU. When I first got the Eagle it was a lucky find when I was still using frigates (1D mod - Just less hull points, which is fantastic!) so was actually running Augmented Engines, DTC, 2xAutocanon and 1xHeavy Mortar to fight Pirates and Ludds (same beams, no advanced optics). Having 24 less OP (and no loadout design) made things a bit tight, but having a slightly under-powered Eagle running around at frigate speeds was actually really nice.

Advanced optics: TBH the phase lances don't need the range, but the PD lasers really want them! The Phase Lances are almost entirely finishers, so I won't even fire them unless shields are very stressed. The reason the Lances don't need the range is...

Even with a long range load out on the eagle/falcon, short ranged lances can be nice for finishing targets up close when knocked offline by kinetics. And with their speed they can easily pull it off whenever needed.

This! Even an Eagle can dart forward and 'pop' a high flux frigate or destroyer. Its a fantastic ship system for kinetics + lances: The enemy will come to you when they are low on flux, but it takes them a while to reverse course and get out of range. The system lets you get in during that transition and mess them up. The single Ion Beam helps also if it knocks out engines.

So I'm basically running the Eagle in two modes (I do this on a lot of my favorite ships, as I overgun almost always): 'Long' range consisting of the Autocannons and Ion Beam. Could switch to HVD's but I don't have the blueprints, and to be honest I prefer the DPS over the range. At long range the Eagle does quite reasonable anti-shield DPS, and the Ion forces the enemy to keep shields up or lose guns/engines. Then, if/when the enemy flux is high, I switch off the Ion Beam, move in on jets, and start cracking armor with the Phase Lances. Turning off the Ion Beam helps a lot with flux management (and I often turn the shield off now as well if the enemy has been suppressed enough to not be firing much).

I am considering dropping Advanced Optics again and changing the PD lasers to LRPD, but I really like the close in DPS for dealing with fighters so I've been holding off. Its not like the increased range on the phase lances (and Ion Beam) is bad its just not strictly needed.

I would use only Phase Lance with Advanced Optics on Falcon or Eagle.  Because those are set far back from ballistics, I would consider using Arbalests instead of Heavy Autocannon, for the ranges to match better.  Of course, Heavy Autocannon has better DPS.  Then again, the flux spikes from Phase Lances would probably make the efficient Arbalest more appealing.

Depends on how you want to fly it, but the key thing is that you aren't using the phase lances all the time - they are finishers and anti-fighter - so its ok to be overfluxed. The Eagle can handle 3x Autocannon + Ion Beam flux neutral, so when battering down the shields there isn't much need for greater efficiency. When firing the lances, in general you are dumping your flux reserve into a kill anyways (and you can safely vent much of the time, because phase lances will knock out guns very well on the second or third shot). I don't value range matching very much in mobile ships like Falcons and Eagles, though its a big concern on Dominators and Onslaughts.
Title: Re: Talkin bout birds
Post by: Megas on April 21, 2019, 06:37:23 PM
Depends on how you want to fly it, but the key thing is that you aren't using the phase lances all the time - they are finishers and anti-fighter - so its ok to be overfluxed. The Eagle can handle 3x Autocannon + Ion Beam flux neutral, so when battering down the shields there isn't much need for greater efficiency. When firing the lances, in general you are dumping your flux reserve into a kill anyways (and you can safely vent much of the time, because phase lances will knock out guns very well on the second or third shot). I don't value range matching very much in mobile ships like Falcons and Eagles, though its a big concern on Dominators and Onslaughts.
Is this for playership only, does it include AI?  Whenever I give phase lance Eagles to AI, they just brawl and fire lances at every opportunity.  The AI overloads sooner or later because of flux spikes from phase lances.  Even worse if I combo them with needlers (which I did during 0.8 when needlers were more flux efficient).
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: TaLaR on April 22, 2019, 12:47:36 AM
Depends on how you want to fly it, but the key thing is that you aren't using the phase lances all the time - they are finishers and anti-fighter - so its ok to be overfluxed. The Eagle can handle 3x Autocannon + Ion Beam flux neutral, so when battering down the shields there isn't much need for greater efficiency. When firing the lances, in general you are dumping your flux reserve into a kill anyways (and you can safely vent much of the time, because phase lances will knock out guns very well on the second or third shot). I don't value range matching very much in mobile ships like Falcons and Eagles, though its a big concern on Dominators and Onslaughts.
Is this for playership only, does it include AI?  Whenever I give phase lance Eagles to AI, they just brawl and fire lances at every opportunity.  The AI overloads sooner or later because of flux spikes from phase lances.  Even worse if I combo them with needlers (which I did during 0.8 when needlers were more flux efficient).

AI manages it's flux only in sense of "too much flux, let's fire less" not "I want to drive enemy flux up with efficient kinetics, then finish them with Phase Lances". AI just does not reserve flux/weapon cooldown for such planned usage.

It's still a huge improvement over pre-0.9 AI and works rather well with Eagle builds like: 2x HAC (or 1x HAC + 1x HNeedler), 1x Mauler, 2x Graviton (persistent offense) + 3x LRPD/PD (persistent PD) + 1x Heavy Blaster (opportunistic flux dump) .
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Thaago on April 22, 2019, 01:05:41 PM
Depends on how you want to fly it, but the key thing is that you aren't using the phase lances all the time - they are finishers and anti-fighter - so its ok to be overfluxed. The Eagle can handle 3x Autocannon + Ion Beam flux neutral, so when battering down the shields there isn't much need for greater efficiency. When firing the lances, in general you are dumping your flux reserve into a kill anyways (and you can safely vent much of the time, because phase lances will knock out guns very well on the second or third shot). I don't value range matching very much in mobile ships like Falcons and Eagles, though its a big concern on Dominators and Onslaughts.
Is this for playership only, does it include AI?  Whenever I give phase lance Eagles to AI, they just brawl and fire lances at every opportunity.  The AI overloads sooner or later because of flux spikes from phase lances.  Even worse if I combo them with needlers (which I did during 0.8 when needlers were more flux efficient).

AI manages it's flux only in sense of "too much flux, let's fire less" not "I want to drive enemy flux up with efficient kinetics, then finish them with Phase Lances". AI just does not reserve flux/weapon cooldown for such planned usage.

It's still a huge improvement over pre-0.9 AI and works rather well with Eagle builds like: 2x HAC (or 1x HAC + 1x HNeedler), 1x Mauler, 2x Graviton (persistent offense) + 3x LRPD/PD (persistent PD) + 1x Heavy Blaster (opportunistic flux dump) .

The AI does pretty well with the loadout, but not perfect, because as TaLaR points out it doesn't keep a reserve like the player does. However, only 2 phase lances, set to alternating (important!) is a low enough burden that the AI manages it well. The Ion Beam is in its own group, and the AI turns it off when brawling to save flux, which is good group management.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: goduranus on April 22, 2019, 08:15:51 PM
Oh hell, that's why I always overload whenever I use the Falcon, cuz I set the medium energy to linked (facepalm)
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Thaago on April 22, 2019, 09:26:07 PM
That and very aggressive venting help a lot, yeah! The AI in particular really likes the alternating mode and will actually fire them in a staggered pattern when at medium flux.

(Recently I've had my AI Falcons be 1x Phase and 1x Ion though, which is more comfortable.)
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: ThePollie on April 30, 2019, 09:45:15 AM
Reminds me of a similar issue I encountered in Battletech and Starship:Gemini. Late game just boiled down to using only the largest, most powerful mechs/ships, because anything smaller is simply obsolete in every fashion. My attempts at frigate-only runs generally fail after I bump into fleets with twelve Moras and I get swept down by fifty fights of strike craft with no real way to answer it.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: TaLaR on April 30, 2019, 11:49:27 AM
Reminds me of a similar issue I encountered in Battletech and Starship:Gemini. Late game just boiled down to using only the largest, most powerful mechs/ships, because anything smaller is simply obsolete in every fashion. My attempts at frigate-only runs generally fail after I bump into fleets with twelve Moras and I get swept down by fifty fights of strike craft with no real way to answer it.

Chain-deployed player-piloted phase frigates (mainly Afflictor, Shade is significantly worse but still usable) and Hyperions can carry any late game battle.
But under AI control no frigates can really hit above their weight. If you were to try anyway, Tempest swarm is the best bet.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: Igncom1 on April 30, 2019, 12:06:42 PM
Omen-class can absolutely dominate in numbers with their EMP emitters. Fantastic little escorts.
Title: Re: Level scaling is overly agressive and immersion breaking
Post by: ThePollie on April 30, 2019, 12:32:26 PM
Yeah. I generally find the AI lacks a lot of tact with otherwise solid ships and builds. It's frustrating to make a ship that performs incredibly well, only to find it useless in practice because the AI insists on using the extremely flux-heavy HE guns on enemy shields and gets out-fluxed constantly.

Besides the carrier issues, frigate-only builds also ran into constant CR problems when running into fleets fielding, say, fifty Ventures.