Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Destructively Phased on November 17, 2018, 05:26:35 PM
-
1st things first, a question for Alex, are these supposed to occur earlymid game? Is the players first colony supposed to trigger the reaction I'm about to describe? If yes, then ignore the rest I probably should have built my fleet more before building a colony.
So, just had my first faction expedition to try and put down my operation, which, fair enough, was earning me a fair amount of credits ~150,000 a month, with a single colony.
The fleet dispatched to take care of my colony came from the Diktat severly outclassed my own forces. It contained 2 Conquests, and at least 3 Falcons, more destroyers than I had ships, to put this in context, I only had 3 collossus MkIIIs as my largest ships (namely as they can serve as great people carriers and 3 wings is on par with a Mora).
It feels a bit out of touch for what was a mining colony, at the literall (bottom) edge of the sector. The fuel costs alone should have made whatever bueracrat in charge wince at the idea, let alone the supplies burn for dealing with hyperspace storms. Hell, I'd expect to see them torch Umbra in that fashion before turning that sort of force at the sector edges.
Basically, the question boils down to, should the Diktat be sending the Lionguard to a colony on the edge of the sector?
-
It depends on what fraction of the market share you've got, compared to theirs, if they're one of the top share-controllers in the Sector. Once it gets beyond a certain threshold, it's expedition time.
(In-fiction wise, maybe it's not economic to put down your specific operation, but the object lesson to *everyone else* is certainly worth it. You let one mining operation keep going in peace, all of a sudden you've got 10 more on your hands.)
-
Had 3 or 4 of these expeditions so far, and I was able to kill 'em. They're not easy but they're doable.
What really irks me are these Luddic Path Cells that pop up. Had one pop up just now, and immediately they have a Battlestation in a neighboring system. They don't run out of deathballs to defend the system (and hyperspace) either. Are you not supposed to take these out? Because this seems like a bit much.
-
As far as I am concerned, factions attacking player's colony are happening way too often. It is litelary expedition after expedition with expedition in betwen of expeditions for the sake of expedition. Really... Too much. Too much. Once more - too much. I think there should be some kind of "cooldown" in game. Like if expedition happened and got repulsed, then next expedition (from ANY faction) can happen only after like 3 months. And if it succeded then only after some time after its effect faded off. Because in my personal opinion main problem is that they force me to be back in system on time (no, I am unable to spare that amount of money for constant bribes - I am glad you are superior player and all that, but I am not - sorry for me being *** compared to you), which means constant running with little to no time to do anything usefull/lucrative.
But that is only my opinion - I might be just not "GIT GUTTED" eoungh to deal with problems in 0.9 and in week or so will think diffrently.
-
Fair point. They do happen in quick succession for me too. Always having a 40-50 day deadline does not allow you to stray too far from home.
-
I'm having similar issues but without the ability to defend my own colonies (4 wolves and their support).
In my case specifically, I have 100+k income with the best stations and patrols possible. But when expeditions come, EVERY other faction cames, the result ends with the defense fending off 3 factions (This is when the station goes boom and a resulting 59-day fix) and others disable of the mega-port for 160 days and any other that makes the expedition feel happy. The result is 160 days of -100k income (First month). Once the port opens up, it happens all over again.
It has gotten better for me with a nano forge bringing higher quality ships to the rescue, but it can be quite harsh for a beginner.
-
The RNG might know you are playing a pirated copy (paraphrased)
I have not noticed any of the problems people are referring to
-
I also find the expeditions a bit too frequent. They also should escalate. And additionally there seems to be “cleanup problems” when you don’t personally defend.
On top of this the luddites are prrobably overfunded. They are more of a late game threat than mid game and it’s too difficult to neutralize them. This makes their terrorism just something you have to deal with until you’re latefame rather than something you can avoid or mitigate.
-
Has anybody tried to go on the offensive? Does inflicting damage on sending faction help to reduce their ability to attack you?
-
Has anybody tried to go on the offensive? Does inflicting damage on sending faction help to reduce their ability to attack you?
That's a good point if attacks are determined by the market share!
For example, the Diktat is a major producer of fuel. If the player is trying to compete in fuel production, can we demolish his production main planet to reduce their attacks?
Also, has anyone tried to do the "bad" bombing, the one that destroys the colony?
-
It seems the expeditions come because you have too much of the market share, the expedition is here to decrease your presence in the sector for their own profits. At least that's what I think because it can also be the drug trade thing everyone's doing (I know you do drug trading, the great majority of it too in the sector).
-
Has anybody tried to go on the offensive? Does inflicting damage on sending faction help to reduce their ability to attack you?
That would be the logical thing for me to do if they refuse to leave me alone. Unfortunately, I have not progressed far enough to try that option. For factions that constantly send wave after wave of bad guys like in Space Invaders or Galaga, they have basically declared war, and the only way to make them stop is to bomb them into the stone age.
I would like to conquer the sector, but if they have a death wish and want to pick a fight while I mind my own business because I make too much money, I have no problem sending them to an early grave and taking the good stuff they leave behind.
-
Another option: let me know if this should be it’s own thread
Currently there are three ways to deal with an expedition
1) Blow them up
2) pay them off
3) expend political capital
Well, there would be a fourth, “comply with demands”.
When you comply with the demands of the faction in question you get a slight reputation bump (1 to 2) on a per month basis and your production capacity and inputs fall in synth to meet the remanded production limit. You could then spend your reputation to allow you to buy a commission (you would pay tariffs to the commissioner faction) or to overproduce later (by paying off inspection fleets with reputation)
This is similar to paying them off but probably will produce a higher reduction in income. It would also give ways to deal with/become a pirate/Luddite. Luddites could demand you only produce low tech stuffs and cease tech mining. Pirates could demand a limit to patrols. (IE if you don’t patrol the warp lanes we won’t raid your shipping... only the other guys shipping). Both would like you more but would instantly jump right back to hostile once you reverted your policies. (That is just the way pirates and terrorists are)
-
I just cannot win. I get max colony skills to get enough money to support my colony, and now the Diktat wants to set my colony on fire because I make too much Heavy Machinery.
Looks like I will Tech Mine and rack in the profits. If I will be invaded, I guess it is time to crank up the money. This is starting to feel like the first 0.7 version where everyone gets angry the moment I get favorable relations with one faction. That first 0.7 version was not fun.
Either that or start over.
-
My home system with 2 planets (size 9 & 7), both defended with High Commands (supplied by 2 pristine nanoforge powered Orbital Works) has become so inundated with Expeditions, that the expeditions themselves have started fighting one-another!
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/77cf36uiear38d5/screenshot025.png?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/chou3nbdswggags/screenshot027.png?raw=1)
Apparently salvage is big business!
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ugkhnn1yt30a30n/screenshot026.png?raw=1)
-
Faction Expeditions as a concept are totally fine and make sense, there needs to be push-back from this cruel setting. The problem is how they've been currently implemented.
As I've complained in other threads, NPC factions don't seem to really have a "budget" for ships so them tossing attack expeditions doesn't really hurt them, even if they get defeated over and over again. If this was the case, Factions could have a deeper AI choice on when or even if to send an expedition. The Luddites just declared open hostilities on you, do you really want to spend your limited military resources attacking some colony on the opposite side of the sector? Also, surely the NPC factions must have some intel on my faction? Why would they waste resources throwing an expedition at me that is guaranteed to be absolutely destroyed by my defenses?
-Factions should only attack if they don't have bigger fish to fry and can "afford" to potentially waste the ships and resources they are throwing at you.
-Factions should only attack if the above is true AND they have the resources to send a fleet that actually has a chance to win. If they size up you defenses vs your resource share vs other rival faction threats it should be possible to make yourself an unappealing target.
Have a risk factor listed for all the factions as well so you can see how likely they are to attack and why. "Oh, I can see the Hegemony has no plans to attack me because they're still rebuilding after their recent conflict with Tri-Tach, because we have very good relations, that they have new hostilities with the Luddites, and that my defenses are extremely strong. But I can see Sindria's chance of attacking me is going up because they're enraged at my fuel production, we already have -20 relations, and they are at peace with a huge fleet so think they can take me on"
-
My home system with 2 planets (size 9 & 7), both defended with High Commands (supplied by 2 pristine nanoforge powered Orbital Works) has become so inundated with Expeditions, that the expeditions themselves have started fighting one-another!
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/77cf36uiear38d5/screenshot025.png?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/chou3nbdswggags/screenshot027.png?raw=1)
Apparently salvage is big business!
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ugkhnn1yt30a30n/screenshot026.png?raw=1)
Salvage industry for your colonies when? I mean, with all those wrecks one would expect the player faction (colony) to be able to sport quite a fleet even if they don't have the stuff necessary to build new hulls or weapons
-
Baro has a good idea about the budget. Right now, what is put into the calculation for whether a faction attacks you or another faction?
How much of your market share they are taking, right? What else?
The calculation should also include things such as:
How many gigantic armadas they lost recently
How many resources they have overall
How close your offending market is (vs hypothetical fuel cost)
Some variables or booleans in the faction file reflecting their ideology on free trade and aggression.
Maybe they're already there but constants need tweaking. But if you've destroyed a giant enemy armada, that should buy you some peace for a while (Skobelev's "The harder you hit them, the longer they stay down").
TAX/TREATIES: A faction could first try to extort monthly tax from you. Then if you pay even more, they'll send fleets to help defend against other factions. But it means you aren't earning much, and they might keep increasing the shakedown amount as time goes on, so that eventually you fight. Some faction file variables would make faction behavior more distinct form each other in behavior in this regard.
Basically, rather than having a bunch of repetitive expeditions from the same factions to the same colony, it would be a sort of story arc for each colony: You start independent, then get coerced into some kind of disadvantageous agreement with a powerful neighbor, then you get a "protectorate" status, then you get crushing exploitation until finally you fight.
With this system players can fight right away from the start if they want. But the tax option lets people avoid some of these repetitive expeditions. Basically, if you're going to have all these factions and economies, if they don't behave at all rationally, throwing away tonnes of fuel/money on repeated failed expeditions, it starts to feel pointless.
-
maybe it's because i have built up my fleet pretty big (got a pristine nanoforge early on while exploring) and getting a conquest BP and crapping a few out but really its more annoying than anything. occasionally they'll get through my starfort+250% fleet only to get crushed on the ground and accomplish nothing.
The first 2 expeditions against my first colony went through so i just did bounties and explored for shtuff while waiting for repairs and then i built a couple of conquests, ate the next exped, salvaged another conquest and a couple of herons (thanks perseans), by then i had heavy batteries, a battlestation and a command hq so it was fairly safe to go do whatever. Found an alpha core and decided to install it in the command hq for even bigger defense fleets, paying off the hegemony is like half a month's income at this point.
the real annoyance is the Ludds. their raids are laughable, but the bloody terrorists are annoying. -3 stab and you can't do anything about it because the base is in the middle of nowhere so no one's seen it.
-
I have to agree, the frequency of expeditions and Luddic Path cells are both excessive currently. They are a lot more annoying than fun. My suggestions would be (please excuse if some of these are already in game) -
1. Player's faction should be able to form diplomatic / trade treaties with other factions to prevent expeditions.
2. Expedition frequency should scale down with faction relations and defense strength of the target system. IMO they should stop altogether if relation with NPC faction is "friendly" or higher.
3. Nearby Luddic Path cells should disband completely if I destroy their space station. They may crop up again after a random amount of time (modified by relevant factors) instead of the current fixed interval.
4. There could be a minigame (even if it is a simple text adventure, like the raids) to commit resources and marines to take out Luddic Path cells on a planet. There should be risks involved such as facilities getting disrupted or destroyed or size reduction based on how aggressive you are.
-
I have to agree, the frequency of expeditions and Luddic Path cells are both excessive currently. They are a lot more annoying than fun. My suggestions would be (please excuse if some of these are already in game) -
1. Player's faction should be able to form diplomatic / trade treaties with other factions to prevent expeditions.
2. Expedition frequency should scale down with faction relations and defense strength of the target system. IMO they should stop altogether if relation with NPC faction is "friendly" or higher.
3. Nearby Luddic Path cells should disband completely if I destroy their space station. They may crop up again after a random amount of time (modified by relevant factors) instead of the current fixed interval.
4. There could be a minigame (even if it is a simple text adventure, like the raids) to commit resources and marines to take out Luddic Path cells on a planet. There should be risks involved such as facilities getting disrupted or destroyed or size reduction based on how aggressive you are.
I like what you have proposed, especially those I've highlighted in your post. The lack of options other than direct user interference like raiding and destroying something that opposes you is limiting player options, forcing the player to periodically maintain their colonies or leaving them debuffed. So generally Alex should add more options like:
1) A diplomatic option to work around expeditions when you have a good relation with the faction. This can be in a form of a non-aggression pact or oneway periodic payments
2) A non-ship-based aggressive action involving the use of raids against cells as a prevention tactic or hiring your own fleets to take out the troubling Luddic base.
3) A more challenging option for late-game players like destroying the Holy Luddic Orbital Church (Unique Super Star Fortress) that wipes out future possible raids and cells across the sector.
These options would also have downsides like 1) High costs or high relationship requirements 2) Negative stability b/c of public relations for a month or two 3) A Holy Crusade against your colonies
With these options, the new expedition mechanic would be more well rounded and provide a better player experience. Anyone who supports this?
-
3) A more challenging option for late-game players like destroying the Holy Luddic Orbital Church (Unique Super Star Fortress) that wipes out future possible raids and cells across the sector.
I'd prefer something along the lines of taking over, to let the other factions continue enjoying pather cells.
-
I'd prefer something along the lines of taking over, to let the other factions continue enjoying pather cells.
Or that, just anything that provides a conclusion to some event with a massive game-changing fight that's challenging. Generally a high challenge option with different results as per the players choice.
-
What I would like to do is hire freelancers to kill annoying Pather bases for me. Pay a bounty of few hundred thousand credits for anyone who can make their base disappear. Even better, if I am enemies with a faction, commission freelancers to kill enemies for me. "I am too busy exploring and doing other matters. Here guys, I'll pay you if you can make my enemies go away!"
-
The biggest issue with expeditions I have is that they come too fast. I had one pirate raid in one system, then began a never-ending stream of expeditions until several cycles later, when I got 2 more pirate raids, then expeditions continued. There should be some graduation. There should be pirates at first, then corsairs, inspections/legal annoyances, and only after that expeditions should start. At the moment you have no choice, but to build military base and/or battlestation right out of the gate, or else expeditions are going to ruin you.
-
You are also forgetting another aspect of politics - influence plays an proxies.
Say the Diktat sends an expedition fleet. The Hegemony might send a detachment to help you, or a financial boost. They might donate a ship to you.
Because they don't like the Diktat. Since there are many player on the board, one mustn't forget OTHER players and just focus on what the player does and how faction X reacts, but rather how faction Y reacts to faction X too.
Backroom deals, backstabs, extortions, power-plays...that sort of thing.
Factions shouldn't have endless resources to throw around.
Also, even other deals might be possible. They might shake you down for tax/tribute. They might demand you trade (some resource) exclusively with them. They might ask you to disband industry X, or help you buff industry Y because it is in their interest.