Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Gothars on June 01, 2018, 04:57:39 AM

Title: Some small stuff
Post by: Gothars on June 01, 2018, 04:57:39 AM
- You can't use modspecs in the salvage screen after transferring them to your cargo hold. That's a little strange, since you can use them at any other place.

-  In pursuit scenarios, it's pretty annoying that your ships sometimes brake for asteroids upon entering the map. This random event can foil your chances to capture a target.

-  In the deployment dialog, the position of the deployment costs makes it look as if they were officer levels. A few more pixels between them would help. (Ignore the red circle, I was indeed confused by this.)
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/KUR8a0W.jpg)
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- When upgrading an officer, please don't close the level up dialog after each level. Only when no further level ups are available. It is annoying having to re-open it all the time.

- I'd personally love the option to start in (or acquire early on) an Odyssey (d) class. It's the perfect ship for lone exploration, but by the time you can afford it, that role is obsolete.

- If hyperspace storms would show up on the radar, that would enable you to traverse hyperspace while zoomed in on your fleet.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Megas on June 01, 2018, 05:39:27 AM
-  In pursuit scenarios, it's pretty annoying that your ships sometimes brake for asteroids upon entering the map. This random event can foil your chances to capture a target.
Originally, ships did not break for asteroids.  There were complaints about people taking heavy damage (and maybe a fatality or two), with ships burning into random asteroids and had no way to avoid it.  Breaking for asteroids is probably the lesser of two evils.  It is annoying that you lose speed, but probably less so than taking avoidable damage.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Snrasha on June 01, 2018, 09:10:13 AM
-  In pursuit scenarios, it's pretty annoying that your ships sometimes brake for asteroids upon entering the map. This random event can foil your chances to capture a target.
Originally, ships did not break for asteroids.  There were complaints about people taking heavy damage (and maybe a fatality or two), with ships burning into random asteroids and had no way to avoid it.  Breaking for asteroids is probably the lesser of two evils.  It is annoying that you lose speed, but probably less so than taking avoidable damage.

Happens 50% of my pursuit,  where i take a asteroid when he spawn and lose the speed burst '.'
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: SafariJohn on June 01, 2018, 10:30:27 AM
-  In pursuit scenarios, it's pretty annoying that your ships sometimes brake for asteroids upon entering the map. This random event can foil your chances to capture a target.

Ships could be invincible while burning in. Then they wouldn't need to brake for asteroids, or anything else for that matter.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Alex on June 01, 2018, 12:28:53 PM
- You can't use modspecs in the salvage screen after transferring them to your cargo hold. That's a little strange, since you can use them at any other place.

It gets weird if you can use up items during a transaction. That's the condition when you can't use an item, btw; if you were e.g. in the middle of buying something then you couldn't use the modspecs right then, either. It'd be nice to be able to do that, but I don't want to do it quickly, since a minor screwup here can lead to duping etc.

-  In pursuit scenarios, it's pretty annoying that your ships sometimes brake for asteroids upon entering the map. This random event can foil your chances to capture a target.

Hmm. I mean, that sucks, but that's the breaks sometimes? (Ha, ha.) Also can work for you if the tables are turned..

-  In the deployment dialog, the position of the deployment costs makes it look as if they were officer levels. A few more pixels between them would help. (Ignore the red circle, I was indeed confused by this.)

Funny - noticed this a few months ago and it was bothering me, so, already fixed!

- When upgrading an officer, please don't close the level up dialog after each level. Only when no further level ups are available. It is annoying having to re-open it all the time.

Good call, did that. Also added "G" as a shortcut key for "Level up" in the dialog, so you can do it all quick-like.

- I'd personally love the option to start in (or acquire early on) an Odyssey (d) class. It's the perfect ship for lone exploration, but by the time you can afford it, that role is obsolete.

That'd be a lot of fun, yeah. But I'm also extremely hesitant to give the player a capital ship straight out the gate. Open to ideas here; I mean, it's not going to be a starting ship, you know? That'd just be crazy.

- If hyperspace storms would show up on the radar, that would enable you to traverse hyperspace while zoomed in on your fleet.

I'll see if I can take a look at some point - that makes sense and would probably be good, but I'm very much in a "focus on what's essential for the next release" mode right now.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Serenitis on June 01, 2018, 01:22:33 PM
Quote
Odyssey (D)
There are two ways of doing that come immediately to mind.

1. Salvage
Much like the derelicts around Petra in Galatia are always fixed, there could be a mothballed Ody sat around somewhere out of the way, but still somewhat near the core sectors. Bonus if this could be made semi-random - like here is a list of possible places to spawn this thing, now pick one for this game during inital gen.
Then it's up to the player to find it.

2. Continuation of Heg mission/story
When you deliver the message from Galatia to Corvus, the base commander on Jangala gives you a bit of a prompt when you ask what to do next.
Here is a good place to insert something about exploration, and how there's a) a dusty old ship just taking up space in the yard that would be really good at that, or b) some rumours of a large derelict near xyz, but we can't spare the ships etc etc.
But they can't just give this to anyone and the player is then prompted to do a few "good deeds", raise thier rep a bit and check back.


Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Megas on June 01, 2018, 06:14:39 PM
Odyssey is not good at exploration.  Its capacity is not much better than other capitals, and it is a fuel hog.  Also, there is that new (D) mod highlighted in the 0.9 patch notes that reduces capacity.  Early game player probably cannot afford to support a capital.

Odyssey may have had better explorer stats during early versions, but not today.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: arcibalde on June 02, 2018, 12:34:29 AM
Maybe some special, modified version of it. It can lose one large mount for more cargo space and maybe some combat speed for more efficient fuel consumption. Something like that. 
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Gothars on June 03, 2018, 07:40:07 AM
That'd be a lot of fun, yeah. But I'm also extremely hesitant to give the player a capital ship straight out the gate. Open to ideas here; I mean, it's not going to be a starting ship, you know? That'd just be crazy.

Maybe the simplest solution would be to make the Odyssey(d) a common hull on black markets. I'm OK with having to earn it, I just want to be able to do so while it's still useful.

Maybe even a civilian version that has less armament but better logistical stats?

Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Alex on June 03, 2018, 10:38:15 AM
If this kind of start was generally available, if it was good, it'd be basically mandatory, right? That doesn't seem good. And if it wasn't effective, then it might as well not be there. Though if you had to buy it, that'd alleviate much of that concern.

Hmm. This is giving me an idea for a mission - some sort of Odyssey enthusiast gets in touch with you, tells you where to find a heavily damaged one, and gives you missions along the way, gradually removing d-mods from it one by one. It wouldn't be always-available and there'd be a commitment to seeing it through, but it also sounds like it could be fun.

There's also some potential in making the Odyssey lean more into being an exploration ***. Well, will think about it!


(I guess in theory an Odyssey might be available early if one finds it floating around, but that isn't super likely.)
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Gothars on June 04, 2018, 03:24:29 AM
OMG, all this time I wasn't thinking of the Odyssey at all, I was thinking of the Apogee-class cruiser! ^^" That makes a little more sense as an early available (d) hull, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Megas on June 04, 2018, 04:58:18 AM
There is always the Venture boss in the tutorial.  Apogee is not much of a fighter anymore, so might as well use the Venture.  Odyssey as it is, is kind of crappy as a fighter without Tachyon Lances too (thanks weak shield and low OP), and it needs a huge boost in fuel and cargo capacities if it wants to play explorer, maybe better fuel efficiency (than normal capitals) too so it does not kill fuel for beginners.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Cyan Leader on June 04, 2018, 06:38:36 AM
Don't feel so bad Gothars, I read the entire thread thinking you were talking about the Apogee as well..
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Alex on June 04, 2018, 11:06:39 AM
OMG, all this time I wasn't thinking of the Odyssey at all, I was thinking of the Apogee-class cruiser! ^^" That makes a little more sense as an early available (d) hull, doesn't it?

Oh! Yes, that makes a lot more sense :)
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Goumindong on June 04, 2018, 11:23:41 AM
There is always the Venture boss in the tutorial.  Apogee is not much of a fighter anymore, so might as well use the Venture.  Odyssey as it is, is kind of crappy as a fighter without Tachyon Lances too (thanks weak shield and low OP), and it needs a huge boost in fuel and cargo capacities if it wants to play explorer, maybe better fuel efficiency (than normal capitals) too so it does not kill fuel for beginners.
Appogee might be overpriced in DP, but it’s still a .6 shield with a large energy slot and large missile
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: TaLaR on June 04, 2018, 11:34:16 AM
Apogee has DE-grade firepower and is slow. Unless it uses soft-flux build (ITU, Optics, HIL or TL, 2xGraviton) or dumps ton of missiles, it is hard-countered by Hammerhead outfitted for max range (ITU+Mauler+HVD, rest doesn't matter much). If Apogee does use soft-flux, it gets a tie with said Hammerhead (well, marginally a win after Hammerhead is out of CR).

'Mediocre' is the only thing I can say about that. Other combat Cruisers can reasonably win against any DE. I'm not saying player can't win at all - you could dump Hurricanes/Squalls (limited resource vs single DE) or exploit flaws in AI range management, but it doesn't change the fact that Apogee is heavily disadvantaged against a DE third it's cost (25 vs 8 ).
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Megas on June 04, 2018, 11:35:01 AM
The only thing going for Apogee is the shield (which does not win fights).  Apogee lacks the speed and shot range (especially with awkwardly placed mounts) to force fights.  Large energy stinks compared to large ballistic, except Tachyon Lance if the ship has ballistics (which Apogee does not).  Large missile off at an angle is bad too.  The only large missile worth anything is Locusts, but only as a finisher (or frigate killer).  Apogee cannot use Hammers and Repears easily.  MIRVs are a joke, especially on AI (who wastes them).  Squalls do not last long enough.

Apogee has better capacity than other cruiser-sized warships, but pales compared to Colossus.

One thing that would make Apogee better would be to swap the large energy to large hybrid or universal (and no other changes).  Then it can be a bit like the good version of Remnant's Brilliant.  Brilliant is basically evil Apogee, trading capacity for flight deck, but Brilliant can be a vicious sniper.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Goumindong on June 06, 2018, 12:41:25 PM
Best Large Missile is the Locust and both HIL and the .6 shield is amazing when part of a team. Plus you don't need as much/any PD because of the anti-missile system and the .6 360 degree Shield

If you want an Anvil to hammer against you can't do much better than the Apogee. It doesn't duel well (unless you have kinetic missiles and then it does duel just fine, who cares about using resources that is the point) but it doesn't need to to be an effective ship

edit: In case you're wondering, using this loadout, the hammerhead didn't even get in range(it fired the missiles because they were on auto but it was not necessary, frag missiles aren't too important against shields)

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/lAVKNJf.png)
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Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: TaLaR on June 06, 2018, 01:26:13 PM
edit: In case you're wondering, using this loadout, the hammerhead didn't even get in range(it fired the missiles because they were on auto but it was not necessary, frag missiles aren't too important against shields)

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/lAVKNJf.png)
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I meant proper Hammerhead variant outfitted for range, not that sorry thing called 'Balanced' that comes default with sim.
Spoiler
Though it's probably better to replace Needlers for more caps or flux distributor in this particular scenario, as insurance against inevitable AI failures.
(https://i.imgur.com/w2zmSpL.png)
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Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Goumindong on June 06, 2018, 02:02:57 PM
It still wouldn't get into firing range. The Apogee hits 1600 range, the Hammer head hits 1200 as soon as the Hammerhead blips its shields its dead, which it will because 2x Graviton and 1x HIL produce more soft flux than the Hammerhead can abosrb. The Hammerhead can absorb 583.3 Flux/Second of soft flux (350 / 0.6) and the Apogee puts out 650 shield DPS. Even if the Hammerhead gets into range of the Needlers(960 vs 1600) the Apogee out-fluxes it. The Light Needlers are barely flux efficient against the Apogees shields 1.1211 to 1 ratio of damage to flux, so you're burning up your flux against a double size flux cap, and you cannot vent or simply stop firing to deal with the soft flux increase due to firing, because the Apogee out-fluxes your soft flux cap.

Two Hammerheads might do it but its still the same problem, roughly, and they're ships with different design intent. As you scale up and add support the Apogees do a lot better because the swarmers and HIL synergize with themselves and with fleets in general better than the Hammerheads do.

Granted, in actual operation i tend to NOT fit the AO and instead fit some other things, but that is because i specifically want to match range with my other ships as the primary value is the .45 shield after hardening and the anti-fighter swarm of missiles.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: TaLaR on June 06, 2018, 02:17:58 PM
...
The Hammerhead can absorb 583.3 Flux/Second of soft flux (350 / 0.6) and the Apogee puts out 650 shield DPS.
...

It's 450/0.6 = 750. And could be raised higher (flux distributor +60, stabilized shield +50) if I just wanted to counter soft flux at any cost. So absolute max is 560/0.6 = 933.
Max damage output for HIL Apogee is is 800 (add 2 Tacs to already present config).
Of course, with just 133 flux per second that Hammerhead has free, killing anything is going to take ages, which is why I said it's a stalemate.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: xenoargh on June 06, 2018, 02:47:41 PM
The current Apogee got nerfed beyond reasonableness, agreed.  

It either needs:

1.  Better shield efficiency.
2.  Deeper Flux dissipation / capacity reserves.
3.  Improved turret arcs.
4.  Better maneuverability.
5.  Better System for combat purposes.

Or a little of all of the above.  I'd say 2-5 are the most relevant; it was great when it was a shield-tank that could (vaguely) hurt things, but was very forgiving of User Error, compared to most Cruisers.

On the idea of, "give player an Apogee early"... meh, IDK.  As it is, players can score a lamed Venture right at the start of the game (in the Tutorial area).  All it does is give newbies an expensive ship to maintain, for which they lack the skills or no-how; the benefit to long-term players isn't a lot better, either, as the Venture's not exactly an awesome ship right now.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Goumindong on June 06, 2018, 03:28:53 PM
...
The Hammerhead can absorb 583.3 Flux/Second of soft flux (350 / 0.6) and the Apogee puts out 650 shield DPS.
...

It's 450/0.6 = 750. And could be raised higher (flux distributor +60, stabilized shield +50) if I just wanted to counter soft flux at any cost. So absolute max is 560/0.6 = 933.
Max damage output for HIL Apogee is is 800 (add 2 Tacs to already present config).
Of course, with just 133 flux per second that Hammerhead has free, killing anything is going to take ages, which is why I said it's a stalemate.
'

100 to run the shield so (450-100)/.6 = 583.3. It could indeed be raised higher but you're still running the same problem*. Its not a stalemate, the Apogee wins.

If the Apogee needs anything it could be a DP reduction to 22 or 20 instead of 25. But that might be too much. Its still a quite competent ship. Though improved turret arcs (so that the back two Medium Energy can more easily hit the sweep spot at the Large Energy front)would be nice

I wasn't adding the TacL's because of flux costs though its probably do-able.

*Plus you would have to lose a LOT of guns for that. And the Hammerhead is nothing without its guns
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Megas on June 06, 2018, 04:01:21 PM
The biggest nerf to Apogee was the change to AI.  AI is now like "If we can't gang up on him, let's run away until everyone has no CR left!  He's too slow to catch us!  Then we will all drift dead in the water together sipping on kool-aid."  Before 0.8, AI generally charged in for the kill; at least they had a spine.  If they continued to do so, then lack of speed and shot range would be much less of a problem.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Igncom1 on June 06, 2018, 07:20:46 PM
Yeah, before hand I found manoeuvrability and speed to be almost essential deciders in a battle with range simply being nice.

Now speed is of little use when compared to range, which is godly at getting the AI to try and attack at all.

The old speedy wolf frigates were terrifying death dealers, but now they are simply annoying little retreaters that poke and prod.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: TaLaR on June 06, 2018, 08:46:13 PM
100 to run the shield so (450-100)/.6 = 583.3. It could indeed be raised higher but you're still running the same problem*. Its not a stalemate, the Apogee wins.guns

Right, shield cost. Still 460 regen for optimal anti-soft Hammerhead. Which gives 766 vs 800. Still a stalemate because Hammerhead will just retreat on high flux as faster side (at least it should, but there is a chance of AI failing to do so in time and getting chipped to death. It would still take too ridiculous amount of time to count as a useful win).
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Goumindong on June 06, 2018, 09:11:06 PM
It cannot and will not retreat. The Apogee has 1600 range in this instance versus the Hammeheads 1200/960. The AI Hammerhead will not have time to get out of range. It will die.

The Hammerhead is a fine ship. Especially at its DP cost. But it’s not beating or stalemating a cruiser unless you’re piloting it and even then you will have a rough go of it. You might as well suggest it would beat an Eagle.

The Apogee is almost as good a line ship as an Eagle. It’s better in some ways (ex damage, tanking), and worse in others (hard flux damage, mobility, DP cost) but it’s still the same type of ship.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: TaLaR on June 06, 2018, 10:25:38 PM
It cannot and will not retreat. The Apogee has 1600 range in this instance versus the Hammeheads 1200/960. The AI Hammerhead will not have time to get out of range. It will die.

The Hammerhead is a fine ship. Especially at its DP cost. But it’s not beating or stalemating a cruiser unless you’re piloting it and even then you will have a rough go of it. You might as well suggest it would beat an Eagle.

The Apogee is almost as good a line ship as an Eagle. It’s better in some ways (ex damage, tanking), and worse in others (hard flux damage, mobility, DP cost) but it’s still the same type of ship.

Hammerhead has 30 speed over Apogee (90 vs 60) and needs to retreat 400 distance (actually less, rear Gravitons don't have full range). About 15 seconds if you add a bit for acceleration. While still being slightly flux positive in process (if it has Stab shields and Flux distributor).
There is no real reason for Hammerhead to fail it's retreat, if properly piloted. But sure, AI may and will occasionally fail at this seemingly trivial task.

Eagle is faster, has much more hard flux range, and enough dissipation to counter soft-flux while doing so. Unless Eagle overfluxes itself by shooting too much, Apogee is no threat to it. Admittedly, AI in current version is prone to committing this error (should be better in next one http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13384.0 ).

Either way Apogee gets it's chance only due to AI errors of opposing side. In theoretical case where both sides behave optimally, it can't win (stalemate vs Hammerhead, crushing defeat vs Eagle).
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Gothars on June 07, 2018, 04:54:30 AM
If the Apogee becomes an exploration focused ship, its combat capabilities should reflect that. The typical goal of an exploration ship in combat is to escape without damage and go on exploring. I think the Apogee's strengths should be
- disabling or disarming anything faster than itself
- avoiding damage while outnumbered/outflanked (important since repairs are slow and costly while on your own)
- escaping from anything that has similar or greater power

At the same time there's no need for it to be able to go toe to toe with other, combat-focused cruisers. It kinda needs that weakness, to make up for the better logistical profile it has to have as an explorer.


Some ideas to archive that:

- greatly reduce flux dissipation while increasing flux capacity. That way it can't use flux hungry weapons like the heavy blaster to threaten bigger ships, but it has a longer time window in which the shields keep it safe.
- increase speed, ideally with a mobility system. (A defensive system like fortress shield would be an alternative, but I think a boring one.)
- give it an EMP escort drone, like the Terminator. That could create openings for the Apogee to make a retreat.



Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Goumindong on June 07, 2018, 10:13:38 AM
The Apogee actually has a really good weapons profile for exploration.

You typically find two types of foes [redacted] and [redacted] remnants.

The first are swarming and have shields and are good at flux dumping and the Apogee is good as a defense against that.

The second have no shields and the Apogee is second only to the Sunder in killing things with no shield (on the non-capital fuel profile) because the HIL is second only to the Plasma Cannon in killing armor and still amazingly good at killing hull.

Re: the Eagle I meant the Hammerhead might as well fight an Eagle.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: FooF on June 09, 2018, 08:42:54 PM
I like the idea of an early Apogee as a exploration flagship. Instead of debating the combat capabilities of the Apogee (which is fair, but not for this thread), why not make an Exploration variant that side-steps the issue? Introducing the "Apogee (E)".

The (E) variant adds the "Exploration Package" hullmod to the ship. General idea is that is a huge overhaul to increase efficiency and range. Fuel and cargo capacity increased for longer voyages. Engines are overcharged at the expense of weapon/shield systems. Reduces overall logistic cost down to Falcon-like levels. Combat-wise, it's not much better than a Destroyer, though it still has superior shields and dissipation compared to most destroyers.

- Reduces Large Energy and Large Missile mounts to Medium (respectively)
- Reduces Maintenance per Month (& Recovery cost) to 15
- Increases Burn to 9
- Reduces Fuel per Lightyear (and jump cost) to 2
- Hull Integrity reduced to 7000
- Armor reduced to 600
- Flux Capacity reduced to 9,000
- Flux dissipation reduced to 600
- Skeleton Crew reduced to 75, Maximum Crew reduced to 150
- Ordnance Points Reduced to 130
- Fuel Capacity increased to 200
- Cargo Capacity increased to 350
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Goumindong on June 10, 2018, 06:03:40 AM
I would rather just give the current version more fuel and capacity and efficiency than making it into a 15 cost destroyer too.
Title: Re: Some small stuff
Post by: Megas on June 10, 2018, 06:07:50 AM
About the only thing bad about the (E) is the OP reduction and maybe dissipation.  Large energy reduced to medium is annoying, but with Heavy Blaster available, the main thing lost is the shot range.  As for missile slot, that is a classic case where if I do not have enough OP, it gets left empty.  If I do not have Locusts to spare, I do not even waste the OP on large missile for Apogee.  Actually, medium missile means I can mount small salamander or 1 OP harpoon or sabot.  I cannot do that with a large mount.

Want to really weaken Apogee, weaken the shield.  Odyssey took a big hit (to the point it cannot tank anymore) with the shield downgrade.  Apogee would too.

For exploration, you want more crew to survey (and then colonize) planets, not less.  Probably just reduce skeleton crew, but not max.

The Apogee as it is is already close to being an explorer ship due to how mediocre it is in combat now (to the point that I do not think about using it) and the builtin mods (even if relatively insignificant).  It can have more capacity all-around, and it can be useful for its intended purpose (of exploration).