Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kelvren on April 19, 2018, 11:33:39 PM

Title: Missile Behavior
Post by: Kelvren on April 19, 2018, 11:33:39 PM
I recently started using more dedicated missile boats in my fleets.

While they perform very well under my control, the AI does not seem to know what to do with them.  The first unshielded frigate or destroyer invites half my fleet to fire all of their harpoons.  My ships will fire torpedoes from long range with no chance of hitting their targets.  I notice enemy AI firing sabots at my flagship, however after most engagements my fleet's sabot racks are full.

Is there a way to limit the max number of harpoons fired at one target and limit the range the AI will use harpoons/torpedoes at? Is there a common reason why AI would not use their sabots?

Thanks,
Kell
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Thaago on April 24, 2018, 09:43:58 AM
I've also noticed the same issues - as a fun little exercise, arm a Hound with a flak or dual flak, plus all the speed and maneuverability boosters. You can (relatively) safely disarm half of an enemy fleet's harpoon compliments and protect the rest of your ships!

The AI uses Sabots to gain flux advantage and when panic firing, but I've noticed they often don't use them when they are winning the flux war (maybe this is just my impression). On the one hand that a good thing because they don't waste them, but on the other it stops the ships from performing at full power. And for some builds (Dominator, Enforcer, Aurora with expanded missile racks) the sabots are enough to simply delete several ships of the same size class, so I would rather they be used early and often.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: xenoargh on April 24, 2018, 11:40:43 AM
This is why I made missiles reload.  Trust me, it’s actually hard to write AI that does it right; Alex’s is better than mine, but, yeah, not perfect. Better to let them get another chance later, when they might get it right ;)
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Thaago on April 24, 2018, 12:08:45 PM
The main issue I have with reloading is that it incentivises waiting for missile reloads as the optimal strategy, in many situations. For some types of missiles I don't think its a problem (I list some that have limited ammo at the end I think would be good).

However Harpoons, Reapers, and especially Sabots just don't work with reloads. A Wolf flying in and dumping 12 Sabots or 4 Reapers is very effective (The AI will deploy them aggressively if given the 'eliminate' command'). It would very much be the optimal strategy to then wait for the reloads. Given that the AI is in general conservative in their use, I can even see shenanigans like flying a group of frigates and switching command between them, using missile dumps for kills and then rotating along. (Even Harpoons would be very effective in this role, as a destroyer at even moderate flux is probably going to be, if not killed, then very damaged by 12 Harpoons). Phase ships make this so much worse, because they are invulnerable while waiting for the reload.

Some people compare strike fighters to infinitely reloading missiles, and there is some similarity, but bombers are limited to carriers, which puts pretty strict restrictions on what kind of optimal behaviors are presented to the player. The firepower of bombers is also pretty carefully balanced to being from a replenishing source.


This is not to say that reloading missiles can't work, just that to do so would require a heavy redesign of a lot of the current missiles.

Missiles I think would work well with infinite ammo, with minimal changes:
Swarmers, Annihilators (both), Locust, Squall 

Missiles that already have lots of ammo are balanced around it, so making the ammo infinite changes nothing in the short term, but gives those ships more longevity. It also prevents the optimal counter-play to those weapons being 'waiting'. In case its not obvious yet, I hate waiting being the optimal strategy.

Missiles I think do not work in their current form with reloading/infinite ammo:
Harpoons, Sabots, Reapers, Atropos, Hammer.

Strike missiles are at present are far too powerful and reloads give the wrong incentives. (I may have missed some as this is off the top of my head).

To me the question is: Do we want powerful strike missiles in the game? If yes, they need limited non-regenerating ammo to promote fun gameplay. If not, then we can fill their current role with weaker weapons.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Alex on April 24, 2018, 12:20:27 PM
There's an issue with multiple ships firing too many missiles vs an unshielded target, yeah. This is addressed in the dev version.

Missiles I think would work well with infinite ammo, with minimal changes:
Swarmers, Annihilators (both), Locust, Squall

The main issue there is flux cost. They'd end up being far too good over a long battle. As they are now, they're a limited amount of flux-free pressure a ship can exert, with various wrinkles. If they have unlimited ammo, they become both overpowered and boring - from something that's an interesting decision to fire, to something you literally never want to take off autofire.

It could all be worked around, perhaps, but a solution would have to address those concerns. IIRC I tried this with Swarmers a while back and it really did feel awful, they went from "a fun thing to fire" to a "have to make sure I'm firing them on every cooldown" chore.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Thaago on April 24, 2018, 12:26:22 PM
Well at present, if I know I'm going to be in long battles I just don't mount those weapons. The strike missiles have enough immediate bang to still be useful (though I know others don't feel that way), but to me these intermediate missiles don't do their jobs well enough to be limited ammo. Although I take the Locust off that list - it is devastating enough that I still mount it if I have an appropriate ships.

In small/medium battles I still use them and they last for most of the battle. I do just leave swarmers on autofire in that case... (Non-optimal play exposed!)

[Edit] I would be interested to hear how other players use those missiles... there's always the case I'm just loudly stating a minority/weird opinion. :P
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Megas on April 24, 2018, 12:33:41 PM
Limited ammo makes waiting the optimal strategy, given how AI uses such weapons.  Wait until the enemy runs out, then kill them.  Unlimited ballistics killed waiting as the optimal strategy against ballistic users.  Medusa vs. Onslaught, wait until it runs out of Mjolnir and HVD ammo, then kill Onslaught.  With unlimited ammo, that is no longer possible.

Locusts is good because it has lots of ammo, and it is generally better than MIRVs.

MIRVs were better when they regenerated.

I consider fighters better than missiles that installed Converted Hangar and fighters is better than wasting OP on (non-strike) missiles themselves on various ships.

Like Thaago, I do not mount missiles in long battles, which is many of them late in the game.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Thaago on April 24, 2018, 12:49:07 PM
(I'll clarify: There are certain missiles I'll mount on certain ships in large battles. Reapers make for a good use of 2OP, especially on frigates, and the medium is also solid. If I'm going an industry run I will use Harpoons/Sabots on the junk ships. Sabots and Sabot pods for Dominators, Auroras, though its hard to get the AI to fire them so this is mostly for my flagship. But Annihilators, Swarmers, and Squalls are out because their ammo won't last and they aren't worth it if they aren't lasting the majority of the battle, and if I'm not going for a mass of cheap ships the small mount Sabots and Harpoons are out as well.)
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Wyvern on April 24, 2018, 01:54:16 PM
There's an issue with multiple ships firing too many missiles vs an unshielded target, yeah. This is addressed in the dev version.

Missiles I think would work well with infinite ammo, with minimal changes:
Swarmers, Annihilators (both), Locust, Squall

The main issue there is flux cost. They'd end up being far too good over a long battle. As they are now, they're a limited amount of flux-free pressure a ship can exert, with various wrinkles. If they have unlimited ammo, they become both overpowered and boring - from something that's an interesting decision to fire, to something you literally never want to take off autofire.

It could all be worked around, perhaps, but a solution would have to address those concerns. IIRC I tried this with Swarmers a while back and it really did feel awful, they went from "a fun thing to fire" to a "have to make sure I'm firing them on every cooldown" chore.
The main issue I have with limited-ammo weapons is that, in some cases, they distort the optimal player tactic to one of 'wait out enemy ammunition, then engage'.  The most egregious example here is an Onslaught with four Annihilator Pods - as long as it's got ammo for those, it's very hard to push an engagement - due to both the flux-free damage output, and the fact that a wall of annihilator rockets tends to absorb a large portion of incoming attacks.

So, for example, I would not suggest just removing ammo from the Annihilator pods like you did with salamanders; instead, I'd suggest dropping them to maybe 30 shots and making them regenerate that in chunks of 20.  (Exact numbers subject to gameplay testing.)  That way, if you pressure a target using them, there'll be an initial burst of damage, and then you'll start to get large openings where it can't keep firing, followed by another burst of damage.

And that's a design that shouldn't distort player use too much, either, since 'wait for ammo to regenerate' wouldn't translate to backing off for too long.

* * * *

From a player perspective:

* Swarmers: Like Thaago, I use them in small battles, and do generally just put them on autofire there; swarmers are fun, but they don't pack enough punch to be worth triggering myself.  If I had a swarmer with regenerating ammo... I'd still just put it on autofire, but I'd also be willing to use it in larger engagements.

* Harpoons: The racks are good; the pods are not.  I'll often put racks on small ships to give them a bit more punch to exploit enemy openings; the pods, by contrast, are meh - if I want punch for a medium missile slot, I'll go with torpedos, which are punchier, have more shots, and are less likely to get wasted against unimportant targets.  Some form of ammo regen for the pods wouldn't be a bad idea (possibly along with a salvo size reduction), but I'd leave the racks alone.

* Sabots: Again, the racks are good... except that if you give them to the AI, they won't use them effectively.  Pods are, again, meh.  So sabots basically only come up if I'm personally piloting a ship with small missile slots; this tends not to happen after the early game.  (I -could- put sabots on my Aurora... but why would I do that when I can mount more ion cannons instead and not have to worry about ammo at all?  Hm.  I should still test this, though; having an extra 12 sabot missiles might be more useful.)
  I don't think you can currently do this without modding it in via combat plugin, but I think the fix for the three-shot sabot racks would be to add in a relatively slow regen (maybe one shot every 20 seconds or something?) that can only restore ammo from zero back up to one.  That way you can't pull out of combat and build up another huge alpha-strike launch, but AI ships that waste their sabots will get another chance eventually.
* Squalls: Have the same problem as annihilator pods - the best player tactic is to wait out enemy ammo.  Maybe a solution like I suggested for sabot racks would work, where it regenerates back up to a max of one salvo's worth?

* MIRV: Two of these on a Conquest is pretty good; they function like guided torpedos.  Without regen, though, it's hard to justify spending the ordnance points on these, and I frequently end up fielding conquest variants that are either entirely missile-free or only mount salamanders.  Perhaps if its heavy weapons integration mod applied to missile mounts (perhaps even large and medium) as well as large ballistics?
* Locust: I've tried these and never been much impressed.  Like swarmers, this is one of the first missile mounts I'd toss ammo regen on.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Megas on April 24, 2018, 02:21:02 PM
Quote
The main issue I have with limited-ammo weapons is that, in some cases, they distort the optimal player tactic to one of 'wait out enemy ammunition, then engage'.
The fear of waiting being optimal due to regenerating ammo is more than offset by waiting being optimal by stalling until AI wastes all ammo (except one for revenge kill).  Look at AI ships lobbing Sabots, MIRVs, or Squalls.  The optimal way to fight those ships is to wait until they run out of ammo.  SIM Conquest is one the biggest offenders.  Want to solo that?  Wait until it wastes all of its Squalls.  Onslaught with quad Annihilators is another example.

Back when ballistics had limited ammo, I frequently waited until big ships ran out of ammo before my high-tech ship attacked the ship.  Unlimited ballistics put a stop to that.

I would like ammo regen on Locusts.  If they regenerated, they would be like a clip version of Heavy Needler.

I do not use Swarmers beyond the tutorial.  Not enough ammo, and not bursty enough.  Also not very common when I care about them.  They either get replaced by other missiles or the OP gets used for something else.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: xenoargh on April 24, 2018, 02:55:27 PM
Quote
Well at present, if I know I'm going to be in long battles I just don't mount those weapons.
Yup, me either.  The only missiles I like right now are Locust pods, because they usually have enough ammo to make the early-game stuff / fighters die, in Vanilla.  Pilums got nerfed too hard and the rest of them aren't worth the OPs for the occasional alpha-kills they generated.

With reloads, the AI actually can get lucky often enough and put pressure on players trying to kite.  But the reloads are set so slow on the burst-alpha stuff that there's absolutely no incentive for the player to use them to kite with.

I actually don't have any issues with missiles-on-autofire, with reloading missiles.  Stuff like Harpoons / Sabots / Reapers, you don't want on auto, they're a total waste then. 

Stuff like Swarmers, I usually never use on a player-ship; not enough alpha to be useful, limited utility.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Goumindong on April 24, 2018, 03:45:57 PM
Harpoon Pods are, by far, the best missile weapon for fleet operations.

The reason is that they have 2500 range and this means that when you smash shields at fleet range you can follow that up with a devastating Harpoon barrage. Torpedoes are not quite long enough to reach fleet range and the requirement to aim them means you’re much less likely to hit at peak range.

Plus, the longish retire time prevents the AI from dumping all its ammo on a flux locked target.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: TaLaR on April 24, 2018, 07:55:36 PM
I make very limited use of missiles.
- Reapers on some player-piloted ships.
- Occasional Salamander/Pilum for AI.
- Squalls have potential usage as survival buffer (whatever mounts them will survive while they last).
- Annihilators on Dominator, Onslaught or LMG Lasher.

Missiles like Sabots or Harpoons are also in weird-place AI-wise. For them to be viable AI needs to be stupid enough to commit exploitable mistakes, yet smart enough to correctly exploit them.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: NightKev on April 25, 2018, 01:23:19 AM
For them to be viable AI needs to be stupid enough to commit exploitable mistakes, yet smart enough to correctly exploit them.
AI (and players) will always make mistakes that can be exploited, the only issue is the "yet smart enough to correctly exploit them" part.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: TaLaR on April 25, 2018, 02:08:43 AM
AI (and players) will always make mistakes that can be exploited

Not really - for example, for player controlled Medusa/other fast ships with character skills venting in front of Harpoon-equipped opponent is mostly safe. Just make sure that your vent time is below missile's arrival time.
AI very easily wastes Harpoons in situations like this.

With Sabots the problem is following through. Winning flux war via sabot usage is extremely expensive (opportunity cost compared to other methods), yet AI usually just lets the opponent to retreat and vent.
Frankly, Sabots are reliably useful only for 2 scenarios:
...I'd rather just design variants that can sustainably win flux war. And they happen to be easier for AI to use too.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: evil713 on April 25, 2018, 04:34:23 AM
What if a missile launcher had no flux when firing but had flux over time while reloading, a flux generated while building a missile sort of thing.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Megas on April 25, 2018, 04:53:09 AM
- Squalls have potential usage as survival buffer (whatever mounts them will survive while they last).
I wished that was true.  Even with Squalls, AI Gryphon was always the first to die, and I eventually retired Gryphon from my fleet.

There is one other use of Sabots, my favorite:  Hull smasher (and armor smasher of smaller ships).  AI does not use sabots that way, except by accident with Longbow spam.  Unfortunately, that makes it a playership weapon.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Serenitis on April 29, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
Missiles are one of my favourite weapons.
But the sad fact is, that as they are I just don't use them very often because I'd much rather use the OP to give my ships something that will help them forever, rather than be gone and left with potentially nothing. Much like I never used ballistic ships when they were ammo-limited.
The only exceptions are Pilums, which I still love to bits even despite thier nerf.

And as noted previously, the AI despite being generally awesome, has some very exploitable behaviour regarding missiles. Just think; every single ship in-sector except the one you are flying is subject to those behaviours.
I brushed over these problems by going through the weapons tables and adding an amount of regen to (almost) every missile weapon, and now it doesn't matter if an AI ship dumps an entire rack of harpoons on the tail of a fast ship they will never catch, or shoots all it's annihilators into empty space again. They'll get to have another go, and I don't get an easy ride once a notable fraction of thier weapons stop working.
The game seems to handle it fairly well, although it would be much better if the AI could decide to use missiles to pressure shields (a notable advantage the player has). But this isn't terribly likely unless vanilla's missiles get regen.

This has taught me that if nothing else, the prox. charge launcher absolutely requires regen to not only be useful, but shine as a PD weapon.
And I've actually started using large mount missiles now they're not dead OP.

What if a missile launcher had no flux when firing but had flux over time while reloading, a flux generated while building a missile sort of thing.
I could live with that.
Or maybe the reload time could depend on your flux level - higher flux = longer reload. Do you vent right now to reload quicker, or will you get your face pushed in if you drop shields?
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Darloth on May 15, 2018, 05:24:36 AM
I like both the regen-to-one-salvo mechanic and the flux cost while regenerating to that one salvo ideas, personally.

I'd also support having the rocket style pods regen in chunks with a long regen time, to get a break between firing periods as someone suggested.

These ideas would keep missiles somewhat different from the other weapons, maintain their limited high-alpha low flux role in battle, and still preserve missile ships as not as useful after they've fired all their missiles, because now they have flux and can't even fly as fast until they've regenerated the next (batch of) missiles... but it would fix them being entirely USELESS after they're out, and it would make adding missiles to ships feel so much less a waste of OP if you're planning to get into any larger battles.

Even if you don't want to do this for the main game Alex, please would you check/add the ability for us to mod in regenerate-to-X ammo, and/or flux while reloading?  I'm aware that, if you don't go with it, it's time away from full game features, but it would open up lots of subsequent ammo based possibilities for all sorts of mod weapons (many of the spinal giant cannons would benefit from less flux cost but then flux-while-reload, for example) and I'd love it for pretty much all missiles.

Without those features, I'll probably still add a slow regen to all medium or larger missile mounts.  I think I did once for a previous version, forget which now.  In fact, Serenitis, if you would consider posting your mod somewhere I'd appreciate that, I'd certainly use it, even though I'll probably keep racks as zero-reload without the ability to limit them to 1 missile, as otherwise they can build up another alphastrike and are not costed to be able to do that more than once.

Edit: Before someone asks... yes, I absolutely do selfishly want these things at the expense of other stuff, like a sooner release.  And you should too, they're useful options with loads of potential.  You'll thank me for it laaaateeerrrr...  *is dragged off and devoured by the update-hungry masses*
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Sarissofoi on May 15, 2018, 05:28:27 AM
They are fine. Just to costly on OP.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Shuka on June 06, 2018, 11:48:48 AM
I like missiles right now, they have trade-offs and require some thought as to their use. As it stands, I generally save them for stripping armor on high threat targets that I can't afford to brawl with for long.

If a battle is going long, I usually try to keep the fighting near my spawn so I can safely retreat forces and call in backups. I almost never expect to defeat a huge enemy force with one wave of my own ships due to CR constraints, and the way missiles are now synergizes with the CR system.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Eji1700 on June 06, 2018, 02:25:40 PM
I'm fine with missiles.  I'm also fine retreating my missile ships from combat when they run dry?

Seriously having a few Gryphons for the initial engagement just annihilate anything they fire at and then leave is such a huge combat swing it's not even funny.  Yes you can't leave them on the field, but by that point you've already won.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Serenitis on July 22, 2018, 04:48:54 AM
In fact, Serenitis, if you would consider posting your mod somewhere I'd appreciate that

The thing about that is, it's not a mod in it's own right exactly. It's more a mod-of-a-mod, that is just me going into the weapon tables (including all mods present) and adding in a regen number for whatever missiles I feel would need it.
And it would be p. much impossible to make it into a standalone mod that covers all the others. (Doing it this way at least.)

That being said...
Spoiler
Basic rules:
Harpoon small triple mount is the baseline - set to regen 1 missile approx. every 20-ish seconds. (regen rate = 0.05)
Large mounts regen faster than small.
Large warheads regen slower than small.
No small mounts with >1000 dmg regen at all.

For reference this is the weapons table I use for vanilla: https://nofile.io/f/Yfa0vY1Gjyn/weapon_data.csv
(<drive>:\Starsector\starsector-core\data\weapons)

The following is a reference table for balancing regen rates if anyone should feel inclined in that direction.
https://nofile.io/f/0K7g3WhVEOR/ss-regen.ods (open office format)
[close]

Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Morbo513 on July 22, 2018, 03:45:05 PM
I'd like to see Salamanders  and any other currently unlimited missiles given a finite ammo pool. Salamanders especially though.
Alternately, and I don't like this idea myself but food for thought, missiles could be infinite (w/long delayed reload cycle) but apply a malus to CR degradation.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: Megas on July 22, 2018, 05:12:04 PM
There are only two (true) missiles that are unlimited, Salamanders and Pilums.  Salamanders used to be limited, but became unlimited to make it easy for the AI to use.  It used to do 500 fragmentation damage, but that was changed because it was nearly as good as a Harpoon against unarmored ships.  (Fast Missile Racks gained charges too to prevent unlimited Salamander spam.)  Pilums are too slow and too fragile to be viable in 0.8.

My choice for unlimited missiles is... Converted Hangar and a wing of Talons or Claws for bigger ships that can use them.  They are more effective than Salamanders or Pilums.

I occasionally use Salamanders, but usually on small ships that cannot use Converted Hangar effectively.  Pilums are useless in 0.8.  As for other missiles, I rarely use them except as filler on clunkers.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: agnar on July 24, 2018, 01:13:18 PM
I made an account to discus this ...

Anyway, what are possible ways to balance unlimited missiles.
One way most People suggest ist flux. -> Why not hard flux on regenerating missiles? This way they have a cost and it becomes intresting to use ships that have no shield as missileboats. This mean that you could make certain missiles cost no flux but have limited ammo.

Another way would be that missiles that regenerate have a similar system as carriers (fighter replacement). The more you use them the slower they regenerate and the number only regenerates if they are off cooldown. -> The missile boats can have a dedicated hullmod which either decreases the use or makes regeneration fast. And the special ability missile forge could have a flat regeneration 50% restoration of you missile replacement percentage.
Title: Re: Missile Behavior
Post by: TheWetFish on August 12, 2018, 11:53:01 AM
I recently started using more dedicated missile boats in my fleets.

While they perform very well under my control, the AI does not seem to know what to do with them.  The first unshielded frigate or destroyer invites half my fleet to fire all of their harpoons.  My ships will fire torpedoes from long range with no chance of hitting their targets.  I notice enemy AI firing sabots at my flagship, however after most engagements my fleet's sabot racks are full.

Is there a way to limit the max number of harpoons fired at one target and limit the range the AI will use harpoons/torpedoes at? Is there a common reason why AI would not use their sabots?

Thanks,
Kell

Which other weapons are in weapon groups with missiles can have a profound impact on how the missiles are used.  It's a pretty complex interplay sometimes.  Try putting Harpoons in a weapon group with a 'ranging' weapon like a Tactical Laser.  It will help to suppress the missile fire until the impetus to fire the whole weapon group is high enough, until the range closes enough for the ranging weapon to fire 

If you've got a specific setup that you want to work a specific way then hop on the Discord (https://discord.gg/TBhcFNh), head over to the Dry Dock channel and we can go through it