Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: AN7AG0NIS7 on July 24, 2017, 08:16:47 PM

Title: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: AN7AG0NIS7 on July 24, 2017, 08:16:47 PM
Capitals look awesome and stuff but is there really a point to fielding one?

All that firepower but always late to the party.. By the time my Astral gets close enough to engage, the enemy fleet is already dead, dying or trying to flee. With the Onslaught or Legion, at least they can burn drive into the fray.

But even without the firepower they provide, my strike group (10 max-level officers) of 4 Apogees (steady), 2 Dominators (aggressive/reckless) and 4 Herons (cautious/timid) can already wipe the floor with the enemies. (I didn't specifically hire officers for their skills or personalities, those were the first 10 officers I saw and hired, I only tailor their ships to whatever skills they get down the line.)

If the enemy fields a capital of their own, I'll just deploy and fly my personal Doom (or Aurora depending on my mood) to shoot load after load in its bum bum until it dies. I don't usually deploy my flagship unless the enemy fleet has a capital. Most times, I'm just watching the video feeds for the glorious explosions.

Also, is there any way to make capitals more fun to drive personally? Would stacking Nav Relays on every ship I deploy make capitals significantly faster or is there a cap to the top speed bonus?
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: CapnHector on July 24, 2017, 09:18:52 PM
I used to use my Onslaught XIV with maxed armor skills as the "anvil" aka tank. Burn relentlessly towards the enemy lines, get them in range of your HVDs and Hellbores, then hold. That thing can soak up the firepower of an entire enemy fleet on its armor, while firing back, in player hands, so long as you flash your shields for torpedos occasionally. Meanwhile, as the enemy fleet is tied up / splintered, your officers kill everything without casualties. Strategy works for everything in the game and I don't think any non-capital can do it.

The Paragon might be better for the job, but the Onslaught is surprisingly fast to redeploy with burn drive and can reliably make it to the front line. You can also deploy it first, initiate burn drive, then deploy rest of your fleet if against a particularly dangerous fleet that might kill one of your precious officer ships otherwise.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: StarSchulz on July 24, 2017, 09:33:22 PM
Most of the capitals are just a bit slow, but they generally bring other things to the table. if you want something fast, try the Conquest or the Odyssey.


In terms of normal capitals, their CR and PPT will outlast just about any fleet that doesn't bring its own capitals. They also generally have a range advantage, and ships like the onslaught or paragon are very well defended and make a good point for your fleet to form around.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: AN7AG0NIS7 on July 25, 2017, 12:23:32 AM
Yeah I figured, if I wanted to use them at all, I should use the Onslaught (and maybe the Legion to a lesser extent) as a spearhead, but getting all the other ships to fall behind it, is too much of a hassle. Furthermore, the officer/autopilot usually wouldn't burn drive into the enemy formation if I didn't fly it myself, and I'd rather not fly those 2 ships myself.

And don't get me started on the Astral.. It's basically the fat kid (who has lots of toys) who gets to the playground too late, after everyone else ran off to play elsewhere. (Should have just stayed home.. :'()

As for the Conquest and Odyssey, I haven't managed to steal those yet so I can't say much. But they're used as broadsides ships right? I guess I can use them for drive-by shootings? Seems amusing enough, will try to steal one of each soon.

Also, I'm not particularly concerned with losing ships, because almost every ship in my fleet (and in the abandoned stash) is gained through unlawful means. They all have the (D). ;D

I guess one good thing about having a capital ship or two in the fleet is that they act as a deterrent when roaming. Those silly Independents keep throwing random Salvager fleets at me. With a capital ship around, they'd follow but wouldn't engage.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: CapnHector on July 25, 2017, 01:20:39 AM
Flying the spearhead Onslaught is actually really fun. If you have all armor skills, helmsmanship and all gunnery skills, and outfit it for frontal sustained firepower with HVD and Hellbores like I did, it's like you're flying this huge wrecking ball that crashes into enemy lines with lesser ships exploding right and left. If you're feeling frisky you can even burn drive straight into the enemy fleet to take out a Gryphon or Heron with your plasma guns and then burn your way out again. It's great.

Unfortunately Conquest is no longer the fleet-soloing monster it used to be. Now it's a weaker Onslaught basically, still slower than non-capitals and has Onslaught's firepower - but only on one side since it can't sustain firing 4 big guns.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on July 25, 2017, 07:09:36 AM
Capitals are worth it, except the glass jaw called Odyssey.  They simply hurt the other side.

Paragon is a vicious beam sniper.  Onslaught is a flying brick.  Astral is the master of fighter spam.  Conquest is fast, and the recent boost to defenses makes it almost a battleship.  Legion can mix brawling and fighters very well.  Odyssey... tries to be a high-tech Legion but fails (due to worse durability and lack of OP).

Due to how... conservative the AI fights, capitals will get there in time to fight.

Quote
Unfortunately Conquest is no longer the fleet-soloing monster it used to be. Now it's a weaker Onslaught basically, still slower than non-capitals and has Onslaught's firepower - but only on one side since it can't sustain firing 4 big guns.
Depends what those big guns are, and what skills the ship has.  Hellbore or Mark IX is not too flux intensive.  Mark IX is simple but effective.

TIP:  To put capitals on the frontline, deploy only the big ships first then close ship select.  Re-open ship select and deploy the smaller ships as a second wave.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: TaLaR on July 25, 2017, 07:16:59 AM
Capitals are among the most efficient ships in terms of combat power per deployment point and per officer/player.
If battle-size was unlimited and economic constraints removed, there would be no sense to have most other combat ships in your fleet (with exceptions like player-piloted Afflictor. Yes, it's *that* good).
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: xenoargh on July 25, 2017, 07:39:17 AM
Some of the capitals are pretty sweet. I think the current Paragon and Onslaught are worth considering for frontline brawling, and the Astral and Legion are both good at what they're designed to do.

I'm not a fan of the Conquest; it is better than it was, but I find it a little too finicky and fragile still.  The Odyssey is sigh-worthy; it's like a Legion, except worse in every way.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Zelnik on July 25, 2017, 07:16:02 PM
I may be weird here, but I think that the Paragon is probably the most awful ship the PLAYER can field. In the hands of the AI it's great, but never YOUR AI.  It's notoriously dumb and you never can put out enough damage to justify the flux.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Squish Cat on July 26, 2017, 12:21:58 AM
I hated the Odyssey at first.  If you think of it as a 45 CR deployment ship, it kind of is disappointing, yes.  To me it feels like a 40 CR ship.  Despite that, I've had good success using it. First and foremost, however, its a broadside ship and should be set up like one.  Once you set it up as a broadside ship, it works pretty well.

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/CLsDDjn.jpg)
[close]

As per the screenshot: 2x Autopulse, 2x Typhoon Reaper Launchers (Or Sabot SRM Pods), 1 Guardian PD System (had no idea what else to put here), 1 Pilum LRM Launcher (again, no idea what else to put here), 7x IR Pulse Lasers, 5x Burst PD Lasers, 2x Warthogs OR 2x Claw Fighter Wings. Mods: ITU, Expanded Mags.

Warthogs will help utterly annihilate whatever you're broadsiding once the shields drop.  Claws will help catch and disable annoying frigates so you can blow them away.  Both of these have worked really well in conjunction with this ship and I am not sure which I like better.  They both have their merits.

I've been able to destroy Onslaughts, Paragons, and other ships using this thing.  Though frankly that might not be saying much.  The player already has a distinct advantage against the AI if they know how to exploit mechanics.

I've also seriously been considering just dropping the Pilum Launcher all together, sacrificing some Capacitors (or going back to the cheaper Claws) and putting in an Unstable Injector.

I still think this ship should only cost 40 CR to deploy under its current specs all the same.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on July 26, 2017, 07:14:59 AM
The problem with Odyssey is it is too fragile to fight any other capital in a slugging match.  Unless it uses beams, it cannot get close enough to other capitals without getting shot back, and it does not have the defenses to withstand a slugging match against Conquest or maybe even Legion, let alone Onslaught or Paragon.

Odyssey is good against smaller ships (if they stick around to fight), but I do not need a capital for that role only.  (Capitals are expensive to use.)  I need a capital to stand-up against other capitals and Odyssey cannot function at that.  Any situation that makes the Odyssey look good can also make the other capitals look good too, and those other capitals are powerful enough to fight their peers on their own.  Well, Paragon is powerful enough that some of the other capitals may need to be configured specifically to counter Paragon (e.g., Gauss Cannons on Conquest).

If I want a speedy capital, the Conquest is better.  Nearly as fast (with jets spam), but much better firepower and flux stats, and decent durability.

I may be weird here, but I think that the Paragon is probably the most awful ship the PLAYER can field. In the hands of the AI it's great, but never YOUR AI.  It's notoriously dumb and you never can put out enough damage to justify the flux.
I like the Paragon.  It is the only ship (that is not a carrier) that has any shot range beyond short.  It is the only ship that makes me feel like I am shooting something instead of brandishing a knife, unless I include carriers (due to fighters being passive homing weapons).  Unfortunately, Paragon has to use beams to get that range, but quad Tachyon Lance (plus two HVDs to put hard flux on shields if necessary) is so brutally effective.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: xenoargh on July 26, 2017, 07:31:52 AM
I think it's interesting that Squish Cat got the Odyssey to work with that build (on default difficulty?), but I'm inclined to agree with Megas; the Odyssey's weak spots (largely, poorly-designed turret coverage, weak shields for something as powerful as it's supposed to be, Energy weapon slots) make it a rough ride against serious opposition. 

I think that the Odyssey, since it's obviously supposed to be a shield-tank, should get the turret arcs fixed, reduced armor, slightly higher speed, turn-rate and Dissipation, and have Flux Shunt installed; that would give it a role as a shield-tank that has some serious teeth and can survive a lot of low-level pressure from Low Tech fighters... but is rather fragile when it needs to lower them.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: TaLaR on July 26, 2017, 08:21:58 AM
I think that the Odyssey, since it's obviously supposed to be a shield-tank, should get the turret arcs fixed, reduced armor, slightly higher speed, turn-rate and Dissipation, and have Flux Shunt installed; that would give it a role as a shield-tank that has some serious teeth and can survive a lot of low-level pressure from Low Tech fighters... but is rather fragile when it needs to lower them.

At least I'd like to see something done about it's infuriatingly narrow sweet-spot for three large turrets. Either make so that they don't overlap and compensate with appropriately large buff elsewhere, or make sweet-spot more usable.

I wouldn't like to see Odyssey any faster though. This threatens to make DEs and Cruisers obsolete - what's the point of fielding ships that are absolutely doomed once the other side has an Odyssey, because they can neither run from it nor fight it?
Every ship needs to have a viable niche on outrun-outgun spectrum, and too fast Odyssey destroys that balance. Conquest with over-top-speed inertial movement used to do this too (though only in Player hands).
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: xenoargh on July 26, 2017, 08:26:30 AM
Fair enough on that point; it's pretty close to the edge there, at least against a few ships.  But yeah, I agree about the "sweet spot" problems; the ship desperately needs better coverage, given that it is (relatively) poorly-armed vs. pretty much anything else in its size class.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on July 26, 2017, 08:31:40 AM
I like to see Odyssey get its 0.8 shield back so it can survive a brawl as well as it used to (i.e., not very well instead of horribly bad).  Failing that, either replace High-Energy Focus with Reserve Deployment and/or add Advanced Targeting Core hullmod so Odyssey can do medium-to-long range combat better, or least made obvious that Odyssey is no longer the brawler it used to be.  Also more OP to support its second wing of fighters.  Odyssey's newfound speed only lets its disengage from other capitals, which does not help if Odyssey needs to get into the enemy's range to get shot at and lose the flux war before it gets a chance to shoot back.  (This is why Odyssey either needs Claws to paralyze enemy or use beams and fighters' kinetics to kite-and-snipe.)  All of the good cruisers have mobility systems to outspeed Odyssey, and almost anything smaller is faster.

Aurora and Paragon did not downgrade anything to get the changes that removed their fatal weaknesses of slow speed and short shot range.  Also, the additional armor and hull Conquest got has pushed it nearly into battleship territory (but it needs Hardened Shields or near max capacitors to get there, but at least it has the OP to afford that).

Re: Odyssey's speed.
It is fine.  Much faster and it can probably outspeed and destroy some smaller ships too easily.  Any slower and Conquest with jets spam can match or beat it, and the Conquest is stronger.

I would like to see the Odyssey's (and Centurion's) turret arcs widened.  If not, maybe turn the Odyssey's medium mounts into synergies.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Flying Birdy on July 26, 2017, 08:32:46 AM
The problem with Odyssey is it is too fragile to fight any other capital in a slugging match.  Unless it uses beams, it cannot get close enough to other capitals without getting shot back, and it does not have the defenses to withstand a slugging match against Conquest or maybe even Legion, let alone Onslaught or Paragon.

Odyssey is good against smaller ships (if they stick around to fight), but I do not need a capital for that role only.  (Capitals are expensive to use.)  I need a capital to stand-up against other capitals and Odyssey cannot function at that.  Any situation that makes the Odyssey look good can also make the other capitals look good too, and those other capitals are powerful enough to fight their peers on their own.  Well, Paragon is powerful enough that some of the other capitals may need to be configured specifically to counter Paragon (e.g., Gauss Cannons on Conquest).


I don't really think the odyssey is really meant to work as an anti-capital. I have mainly used my Odyssey as a triple tachyon lance burst ship meant to kill off all the annoying smaller parts of the enemy fleet. The odyssey is unique in that its able to instantly remove frigates from the 1000 range away (lashers get insta-bursted by triple tach lance with high energy), something that no other ship can really accomplish.

On a practical level, this frigate destroyer mop up ability is incredibly useful. most capital ship fights have me outnumbered like crazy; my AI fleet ships are there solely for the purpose for tanking, stallling and buying time. Rarely am I able to take down the enemy capital easily, while being outnumbered. Thus, being able to quickly chip away at my enemy's smaller, more easily manageable targets, is incredibly important. Mark IX and hellbores simply do not burst quickly enough - enemies do not die in a few seconds typically retreat, thus requiring more effort and time later on in the battle. Odyssey can quickly down destroyer shields with sabot + longbows, then follow up with high-energy focus triple-tach lance, EMPing any ship that survive (disabling engines so it doesn't run away before you kill it) and killing any ship that do not have enough armor to survive. Almost all frigates get 1 hit by odyssey high-energy focus + triple tachyon lance. In terms of time required to kill smaller ships, odyssey is far more efficient.

 
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on July 26, 2017, 08:43:19 AM
That is the problem.  Odyssey needs to be able to fight a capital or it is simply inferior.  Every other capital can fight another capital and smaller ships.

If I want to snipe with beams, Paragon is much more effective with multiple beams and HVDs with 2000+ range.  If I want to mop up small ships, Legion (or Astral) is a much better choice.  Four wings of fighters will sweep nearby space and take out the small trash more efficiently than a non-carrier capital, and Legion has enough durability and firepower to slug it out against another capital.


P.S.  Remember that capitals are expensive, much more than a cruiser.  If I want to sweep lightweight trash, it is probably more efficient to bring a Heron or any of the three or four good combat cruisers with Converted Hangar.

Frigates are the worst enemy of... almost everything that is not a fighter if there are enough of them.  AI plays frigates like dirty cowards until they have the numbers to overwhelm their target, and most ships are too slow to force fights on them.  Fighters are the best defense against frigates because they can chase down frigates, or at least distract them.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: DeltaV_11.2 on July 26, 2017, 09:02:23 AM
I don't think that the Odyssey needs to be able to stand up to the other capitals in a straight fight. 80 speed means it is faster than the majority of cruisers, and destroyers only just outrun it. Large energy mounts mean a lot of burst damage, so it can finish uneven fights quickly. That means even if it would lose a fight with most capitals and has a harder time with groups of cruisers, it can help a fleet more
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on July 26, 2017, 09:25:40 AM
I don't think that the Odyssey needs to be able to stand up to the other capitals in a straight fight. 80 speed means it is faster than the majority of cruisers, and destroyers only just outrun it. Large energy mounts mean a lot of burst damage, so it can finish uneven fights quickly. That means even if it would lose a fight with most capitals and has a harder time with groups of cruisers, it can help a fleet more
80 speed would be if every cruiser worth using in a fight did not have 80 speed and/or a mobility system to make their effective speed higher than base.  Falcon, and maybe Eagle too, with jets spam is faster than Odyssey.  Dominator may be in trouble (due to poor maneuverability), but maybe not since it is close to capital strength already.  Aurora with jets spam (plus 80 speed) is faster than Medusa (because Phase Skimmer recharges slower than jets, Aurora will catch up and kill Medusa eventually).  Apogee is in trouble, but it is not much of a combat ship anymore, just a high-tech mule or hybrid.  Heron has 80 speed, just as fast.  Mora, okay, it is dead meat... eventually.  (Stupid Mora ruining Damper Field for Centurion/Brawler.)  So no, Odyssey is not really faster than most other combat cruisers.  That leaves mostly capitals that Odyssey can outspeed, but it does not have the durability or firepower to defeat other capitals in a fair fight.  Odyssey needs to rely on ion damage (from fighters) or some cheese to win.  If I pay for a capital, I do not want to jump through hoops with Odyssey to win if I do not need to with any other capital.

Conquest with jets spam is not much slower than Odyssey, and Conquest is a much better brawler, nearly on par with a battleship.

P.S.  I suppose its current stats would be fine if its supply/DP cost was lowered to 35 and it burnt less fuel.  At 45 DP, I am not getting what I pay for!  I get more bang for my buck with the other 40 DP capitals.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: AN7AG0NIS7 on July 26, 2017, 07:45:26 PM
I picked up my first Odyssey after beating a bounty last night. Flew it for the first time against random Salvagers and found that, although it's fun to fly personally, its firepower against heavier armoured enemies is underwhelming.

I agree with Megas. I feel like its deployment cost and fuel consumption is too high for the low amount (compared to other big ships) of death it can dish out.

Also, it can't chase down retreating enemies either because frigates and destroyers are always faster than 80 speed and most cruisers have burn drive or those something-or-other jets with the top speed boost.

Overpriced Ok-ish ship but could be better. Maybe some giant space flamethrowers (Plasma Burst Generator from X3) might do the trick. ;D
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: CapnHector on July 27, 2017, 07:48:01 AM
Or, make Odyssey common and cheap credits-wise and make Onslaught very hard to find. Only Jangala even has the tech to build them anymore anyway.

It feels extra underwhelming when you spend a lot of time looking for an Odyssey and then it turns out to be worse than that cheapo Onslaught (D) that you could have bought at any gas station and grocery shop
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on July 27, 2017, 09:56:09 AM
Onslaught is fairly common, but another one that is about as common is Legion.  Legion is the one capital pirates and pathers use, and I am not sure they use any other.  Legion is effective.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: zeno on August 07, 2017, 01:35:35 PM
I'm guessing the DP cost is unlikely to change, as they seemed to be assigned based on ship size and tech-level.  e.g. all hi-tech capitals are 45DP+.

The 2x fighter bays COULD have put the Odyssey in the same class as other capitals, IF it was actually able to field any fighters/bombers that packs a punch. In its current incarnation, once you fill up the gun mounts and have enough vent, there's no OP left. This means you can only have cheap interceptors that don't contribute much when fighting other capitals.  With just its guns, the ship feels more like a "heavy cruiser" than a proper capital. If the Odyssey had 10-15 more OP, it'll be able to field something like Warthogs or maybe even Daggers, which would drastically increase the ship's combat prowess and really make it shine.

FWIW I opt for 2xTachyon and 1xPlasma Cannon instead of all tachyons. This allows me to build hard flux with the plasma cannon, and once the enemy's over 70% hit them with HEF'ed tachyons to punch through shields and knock out their frontal guns. If I can reach that tipping point then it's all downhill for the other ship. This build also means I don't have to deal with the frustratingly tiny sweet spot because I don't need to fire all 3 main guns at the same time.

But again, compared to something like Conquest or Onslaught, where I can just put all turrets on auto-fire and pretty much sit there until everyone's face melts off, the Odyssey definitely takes more effort.

EDIT: Or, since the last patch took the path of making the Odyssey the fasted capital, why not go all the way and Falcon-ize it by giving it 9 maxburn. That'll give a niche and allow for some interesting fleet composition, which will help to justify its cost.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: fishcake on August 09, 2017, 06:43:20 PM
It's interesting to see how the discussion around the Odyssey mirrors the historical controversy over the role of battlecruisers.  The term "battlecruiser" itself originates in the pre-WWI era and referred back then to a ship with similar displacement and cost to a battleship of the line but which sacrificed armor for speed (as does the Odyssey).  These were conceived by Jacky Fisher of the British Royal Navy to fill several roles:

1.  Heavy recon and close support
These ships were intended to be employed in fleet actions to chase away enemy cruisers and allow heavy battleships to engage.  They were also to be used as a fast maneuver element to flank the enemy.  Because of the way turrets were laid out on ships of that era, fleets were able to bring their full firepower to bear only if they were side-on to the enemy--positioning was very important.

The performance of battlecruisers in fleet action is mixed, however, they were still operated by both the RN and the German Kriegsmarine as well as the Imperial Japanese Navy.  Sir David Beatty of the Royal Navy serves as an example of both success and failure:  He led a battlecruiser squadron in the Battle of Heligoland Bight, sweeping away German destroyer patrols and sinking several light cruisers.  Later on, he would become infamous for the phrase "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today" after his squadron blundered into the guns of the German High Seas Fleet at Jutland.

2.  Pursuit and commerce protection/raiding
Battlecruisers were also to be operated alone, protecting merchant convoys from commerce raiding and raiding enemy merchantmen themselves.  This relied on their superior speed as well as a firepower advantage over the armored cruisers that typically were used as merchant escorts.

It's probably in the latter role that battlecruisers found most of their success.  British battlecruisers chased down and sank the German armored cruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau off of the Falkland Islands, ending their commerce raiding careers.  The German battlecruiser Goeben tied up a large number of British assets in the Mediterranean, eventually bringing Turkey into war on the side of Germany and the Central Powers.

So what?
Going back to the Odyssey design, it seems that there does exist at least a historical niche for a "capital" ship which doesn't stand up in a fair fight to a true balanced battleship but whose speed offers tactical and strategic advantages.  Maybe if the burn drive increased and high energy focus replaced with, say, maneuvering jets, the Odyssey could viably fill that "commerce raider" niche, being able to pick and choose fleet engagements while tactically, superior maneuverability might allow it to take on heavier capitals by avoiding weapon firing arcs.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: TaLaR on August 09, 2017, 10:08:06 PM
@fishcake
HEF is critical to viability of current Odyssey as Tachyon Lance sniper, replacing it with pretty much anything will render Odyssey impotent (for the role it's currently best at).
Giving it maneuvering jets is a significant downgrade - it won't be fast enough to avoid Paragon/Onslaught firing arc anyway. And while it will catch small ships even faster, it also won't be able to just pop them with HEF Tachyon Lance burst.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: fishcake on August 09, 2017, 11:33:13 PM
Fair enough.  I suppose if we're gonna draw any inspiration from history, getting sane firing arcs on the Odyssey would make more sense anyway--the invention of the turreted gun made casemated ships obsolete pretty much instantly.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on August 10, 2017, 06:26:56 AM
Only Odyssey cannot fight other capitals, even against other battlecruisers, in a fair fight and win.  Conquest and Legion can.  Because capitals are significantly more expensive to use than cruisers, capital needs to be able to fight other capitals effectively and efficiently else it is sub-par.  Against smaller ships, one or two cruisers, especially carriers, are better and/or cheaper.

Quote
HEF is critical to viability of current Odyssey as Tachyon Lance sniper, replacing it with pretty much anything will render Odyssey impotent (for the role it's currently best at).
If I play beam sniper, I rather have Reserve Deployment to keep the fighters going and replacement rate up.  When I try to snipe with beams, fighters are key to beams' success.  Without fighters, beams are useless, with or without HEF.

HEF is good when I use Claw fighters and triple Plasma Cannon (berserker) build.

Odyssey needs its old shields back (and ten more OP to support its second wing of fighters) to use configurations it used to use effectively.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: TaLaR on August 10, 2017, 06:39:59 AM
@Megas

Hard flux is not strictly necessary. Soft-flux above enemy shield efficiency * flux regen is good enough, and that's what HEF allows. Won't work against Paragon, but anything else is a valid target (Paragon can be cheesed to death too).

Reserve deployment would effectively give 3rd wing - nice, but nowhere near as good effectively extra 1.5 Tachyon Lances + some extra Tac Lasers.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on August 10, 2017, 07:05:29 AM
@Megas

Hard flux is not strictly necessary. Soft-flux above enemy shield efficiency * flux regen is good enough, and that's what HEF allows. Won't work against Paragon, but anything else is a valid target (Paragon can be cheesed to death too).

Reserve deployment would effectively give 3rd wing - nice, but nowhere near as good effectively extra 1.5 Tachyon Lances + some extra Tac Lasers.
Reserve Deployment is for hard flux (from fighters), and that is superior to trying to overwhelming tough shields with soft flux.  Also, two wings of fighters is not very much for Odyssey, and Reserve Deployment works wonders at keeping replacement rate up or at least slow down how fast the rate drops.  Odyssey needs fighters (otherwise, just grab Aurora or Paragon for your high-tech speed or capital fix, smash things, and be done with it).  I tried brute forcing through shields with soft flux (with and without HEF), but it is not very effective against the major threats (i.e., other capitals).  Also, HEF does not recharge very fast, and I have to make them count.  If I mess up or they are not enough, Odyssey must fight without HEF for a while.  I had better results cheesing the AI by waiting until it drops shields, then fire beams (because Tachyon Lance is almost hitscan) and clip unshielded sections at the enemy's side before its shields raise fully, but Paragon is a much better Tachyon Lance sniper than Odyssey, and it has HVDs to put hard flux on shields as a last resort when AI no longer cooperates with cheese against it.

Also, because Tachyon Lance is so freaking rare, I often need to use somewhat more common High Intensity Laser as a substitute.  Paragon can use HIL and Ion Beams as a substitute to quad Tachyon Lances, but it is not quite as efficient at killing.  Odyssey that uses HIL relies on fighters for hard flux.  Without hard flux, HIL build is sunk.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: FooF on August 10, 2017, 07:17:24 AM
Odyssey's problem is its dependence on shorter-ranged Energy weapons. It can't outduel any of the true capitals because it has to get closer to do so. The Paragon side-steps this with its built-in targeting core. The Odyssey could be as fast as an Aurora and it would still be at a disadvantage because it has to open itself up to fire before getting into range. This is the reason the Tachyon lance is one of the only viable weapons it can field against Capitals. It's not a drawback of the hull so much as a drawback off the high-tech battle doctrine of "fast but short-ranged." The Odyssey's speed isn't enough to save it from being pummeled, which nearly every other high-tech ship can do.

The Odyssey should be the "Falcon" of Capitals. Lowered deployment costs, lowered upkeep, less fuel/ly, etc. Instead it has nearly the logistic profile of a Paragon. Something like:

CR/Deploy: 35 (from 45)
Fuel/ly: 6 (from 7)
Fleet Points: 20 (from 25)
Lowered cost to purchase/restore by about 15%.

Basically, make it less of a pain to deploy when it doesn't have the battlefield presence of the other true capitals. (I just saw Megas proposed something similar...earlier. Oops)
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on August 10, 2017, 07:30:26 AM
Yes, short-ranged weapons is a reason why Odyssey hurts so much.  Even with its old 0.8 shields, it could not take much of a beating.  Now with 1.0 shields, it loses the flux war before it can fight back.  It could compensate for this with Hardened Shields or max capacitors like Conquest can, but unlike Conquest, Odyssey has a severe OP shortage like pre-0.8 Hammerhead, and it cannot afford everything it needs, much less wants.

As an alternative to raising Odyssey's OP, make Expanded Deck Crew hullmod built-in.  If Odyssey wants to rely on fighters, this hullmod is required, and it is expensive.  Expanded Deck Crew is the ITU for carriers.  (This assumes Odyssey continues to cost as much as a battleship.)

As for speed and fuel use, Odyssey is already the Falcon of capitals in terms of speed and fuel use, but so is Conquest, and Conquest can actually duel a battleship and win (although it struggles against Paragon, admittedly).

@ FooF:  Fighters could be an alternative to long-range weapons, but a problem with that is Legion not only has four wings of fighters, but also enough OP (barely), durability, and firepower to duel another capital and win.  Odyssey only has two wings of fighters, along with awful durability and sub-par energy-based firepower.  Even Legion is a better small ship sweeper than Odyssey because it has twice as many fighters.  If frigates can outrun Medusa, and most destroyers and cruisers are at or faster than 80 speed (due to being at 80+ speed or mobility system spam raising average speed higher than normal top), how can Odyssey hunt and kill small stuff other than send fighters at them (especially given the AI's favorite tactics)?
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: zeno on August 11, 2017, 01:06:47 PM
What about the Odyssey's non-combat stats?  According to the devblog that introduced it, the Odyssey was originally envisioned to be an exploration ship.

Quote
Unlike the Paragon, the Odyssey is well-equipped for long-range exploration. It can carry a respectable amount of cargo, has lots of hangar capacity for fighters to tag along, and consumes a reasonable amount of fuel for a capital ship. It requires a bit more care in battle, but overall makes an excellent flagship, especially for a player focused on skills that improve the performance of their ship.

Seems to me like its design intent was to be a subpar combat ship to begin with. Though maybe through multiple patches its logistical advantages which it was balanced around have become either irrelevant, or been trivialized.  It only has 100 more cargo compared to other combat capitals, and the fuel cap advantage is not enough to matter when tankers are present.

If we give it 600+ cargo and 500+ fuel, then threw in hi-res sensors, it could become an attractive upgrade for the Apogee (which is kind of in a sorry state).  I'd certainly use it as a flagship in exploratory fleets, where tip-top combat capabilities are not as critical, and the capital-ship tier cost can be justified by having less haulers/tankers and still maintain a functional fleet.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: FreedomFighter on August 11, 2017, 01:23:48 PM
Maybe since the other aspect of the game aside from combat isn't main focus or well develop/implement right now. A lot of exploration/non-combat vessel are disappointing to use. I'm sure the Apogee, and Odyssey going to has their use once Alex finalize the planetary survey, and outpost stuff. Those exploration capital would be a bit attractive if it give you a fleet wide bonus that help you with long range travel or better sensor. The high resolution sensor isn't that great add-on imo. The range increase is miniscule. Better yet, if it help you with supplie/fuel consumption, CR deployment, and recovering or repairing.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on August 11, 2017, 02:48:42 PM
What about the Odyssey's non-combat stats?  According to the devblog that introduced it, the Odyssey was originally envisioned to be an exploration ship.
It is barely better than other capitals at hauling, but Odyssey is still a pig and as or more expensive to use than other capitals.  You want to have a ship as strong as the current Odyssey yet friendly to logistics?  Bring a cruiser instead, it eats much less than a capital and can fight just as well.

Apogee is not a good (read: not top-tier) combatant anymore.  It lost its sensor drones system (which added range and lets Apogee snipe more), and combined with AI's newfound cowardice, Apogee cannot force or dictate fights like it used to.  Apogee used to be the top high-tech line ship (despite lore saying it is an explorer) among low-tech's Dominator and midline's Eagle (while Aurora was torpedo boat pre-0.72 and plain joke-tier rubbish in 0.72).  Apogee is a decent high-tech Mule, but players do not want hybrids after early or mid-game once they can afford to optimize their fleet and control battles.  If player's fleet becomes powerful enough to win nearly any fight, why bother with hybrids when dedicated combat ships kill everyone efficiently and the civilians that never see combat haul everything?

If Odyssey became a capital Apogee, and it only has cruiser-level combat stats and destroyer to cruiser non-combat stats, it would be worthless as a combatant.  Too weak to fight capitals and too slow to destroy most sub-capital ships (because most of the best combat sub-capitals having an average speed of 80 or more, including bonuses from mobility systems).  Unless its cargo stats rival Atlas and Prometheus, it would not be a good hauler either.  600 cargo would not be enough; much rather bring a Colossus instead.  Odyssey would probably need about 1000+ for both cargo and fuel for me to consider using it as an all-purpose ship.  I just want Odyssey to become a high-tech Legion, or at least regain what little combat prowess it used to have.  Currently, Odyssey is the new 0.72 era Aurora - overpriced, underpowered, and good-for-nothing.

Conquest used to be rubbish, but +200 to both armor and hull, along with its built-in Heavy Ballistic Integration to afford heavy weapons, (and weakening of skills that made some ships like Onslaught unstoppable,) made it significantly better.  Today, a properly outfitted Conquest can duel an Onslaught and have a good chance of winning.  Similarly outfitted Conquest will crush an Odyssey about as easily as Onslaught can.  However, Conquest without Gauss Cannons will struggle against Paragon.  Remember that Conquest is merely a "battlecruiser", just like Odyssey, although I would consider current Conquest at the cusp of fast battleship.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on August 12, 2017, 06:43:10 AM
The Odyssey's speed isn't enough to save it from being pummeled, which nearly every other high-tech ship can do.
This would be less of a problem if Odyssey's shields were decent.  If Odyssey could take some hits while closing in, pop out a few shots, then back off, it would be okay.  0.8 shields were not great, but Odyssey could absorb a few hits.  Now, with 1.0 shields, Odyssey absorb hits poorly, and it does not have the OP to afford Hardened Shields or capacitors to offset that without sacrificing other things it desperately needs too, like critical hullmods and two effective fighter wings.  (I leave missiles empty, and have no capacitors, but still do not have enough OP to max vents.)

If my Odyssey does not use beams, what happens is Odyssey approaches enemy capital (with superior shot range and probably kinetics), Odyssey takes hits on shields and Odyssey's flux is too high.  Either it backs off (without firing a shot) to vent excessive flux or it lowers shields and trades hits with enemy... which is a bad trade since the enemy capital has better durability and firepower.  The only way this might work currently is if Odyssey brings Claw fighters, and Claws cripple the enemy long enough to Odyssey to alpha-strike it to death before it recovers.

If my Odyssey uses beams, ranges are comparable to enemy capital, but enemy hits for hard flux, but Odyssey does not except for its fighters.  If fighters keep getting shot down and replacement rate falls low enough, Odyssey becomes impotent, barring cheese involving Tachyon Lances and careless shield management by AI.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Death_Silence_66 on August 12, 2017, 09:02:43 PM
Lance Odyssey is great for mopping up frigates and destroyers and can nuke distracted cruisers and capitals. In my experience if can only be effective in player control.
Title: Re: Sooo... Capital ships?
Post by: Megas on August 13, 2017, 05:38:26 AM
Against frigates and destroyers, they just run-and-hide unless they have the numbers to swarm and kill Odyssey fast, Odyssey cannot engage (unless it is something slow like Enforcer or Condor) and it needs to send fighters after them.  Legion and Astral are better at that due to having more fighters.  Even the Heron cruiser is a better choice.  (Paragon has more guns and much better shot range, yet the AI knows how to stay away far enough away.  Frigate swarms are the weakness of the Paragon... and every other ship except maybe carriers that bring enough fighters.)

Cruisers, Odyssey can kill the slower ones, but some others are faster and can kite like the smaller ships.

Capitals, Odyssey is at a disadvantage and will die if it tries to duel fairly.  Sure, Odyssey can gang-up with other allied ships and take down ships it cannot do on its own, but so can other ships that are also capable of dueling a capital on their own.

If Odyssey is only effective under player control, why use it when I can use a cheaper and more effective 40 DP capital or the 50 DP monster called Paragon?  Legion is the low-tech version of Odyssey, and it is far more effective (and common).  If I want to focus on fighters, Legion or Astral is better.  Other capitals can afford Converted Hangar and bring their own wing of fighters to assist.  (Yes, their fighters are not as reliable as proper carriers with Expanded Deck Crew, but the ships are strong enough to not need it.  Their fighters are useful for flushing out faster small ships like frigates.)

My complaint about Odyssey is it is too weak to duel and kill other capitals and too slow to kill the majority of everything else.