Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Lopunny Zen on June 14, 2017, 03:22:10 PM
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Can we nerf this thing already? Why does it do good against both shield and armor. Shouldnt it bounce off shields doing almost nothing? Instead they are a cancer with too much range and fielded by many of the enemy ships....hmm...wonder why? Its not fun to use them as I sit in the back and deal free damage for no reason and even the computer is adapting itself to send me hate mail every time I use that tactic. It is just an all around too good of a gun. Guass cannon does the same thing but at least that thing generates a lot of flux but the HVC doesnt cost anything. Theres no joy in this gun for anyone
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It is good primarily due to range. It does low damage compared to the other two kinetics. If HVD needs to be weakened, just remove the EMP component. I think it is fine. Occasionally, I need more stopping power than HVD and use Heavy AC or Needler instead.
The one weapon that might need help is Heavy Needler. But in 0.8.x, it is sometimes possible to min-max flux use/dissipation and still have OP leftover for more weapons, and I upgrade from Heavy AC to Heavy Needler.
HVD is a bit on the rare side, and its tier was upgraded to the highest, so buying them is not very easy until endgame.
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Yeah but those weapons you have to get with in ranges of guns so its a fair match but that thing you just slap it on a fast ship and its impossible to fight...they even hit fighters with it so carriers have a hard time as well
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I think its fine. Its damage and efficiency are quite bad, its expensive both credits and OP, and its rare. Its anti-armor is good for a kinetic, but its only effective against the most lightly armored of targets. It can hit fighters, but its slow turret tracking speed and DPS means that is quite bad at it - it might be the least effective medium ballistic at that.
What 'fast ships' are you thinking of? The only ship that could kite with it that I can think of off the top of my head is the Hound, which is easily dealt with by beams/interceptors/mobility systems. (And if its mod ships: thats the mod's problem with balance, not the gun.).
My vote for "annoyingly powerful" weapons go to the railgun and light needler, which are also annoyingly rare.
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My vote for "annoyingly powerful" weapons go to the railgun and light needler, which are also annoyingly rare.
These 2 are the best small kinetics, but dual AC follows Railgun not that far behind. Nerf railgun too hard and small kinetic devolves to just dual AC vs Needler.
Single AC is a joke weapon in comparison though.
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There's nothing particularly overpowered with the HVD. It's exactly the support weapon it suggests it is. Most ballistics, included small ballistics as mentioned here, are much better for actually taking out shields in a stand-up fight. It has its own niche, in which it's good. I don't really see a problem with it at all?
It's very annoying to fight for new players, I would agree, before they've properly figured out flux, shields and the general flow of battle (Hounds/Mudskipper Mk 2:s are much less threatening if they can't flank you while you're busy dealing with something that isn't made of glass), but that isn't really grounds for nerfing it.
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All of the really fast frigates that can kite with HVD or Mauler have terrible defenses (no PD, bad shields). Maybe Falcon is fast enough, and that is a good ship. Even then, AI is bit smarter, it kites, turtles, and vents when it can.
Single AC is a joke weapon in comparison though.
It is not great, but not too bad either. Its best advantage is it is common and available in Open Market. Dual AC can be surprisingly rare at times, but not as rare as Railgun and Needlers.
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HVD is basically an effective long range support weapon. Forces you to keep shields up in fleet engagements without the ship carrying it having to commit, staying in the backline. Perfect on support ships like the Heron carrier.
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Yeah, I don't see an issue with HVD because it's not going to single-handedly win any engagement. If you have something like an Eagle sporting 3 of them with ITU or DTU, they get annoying real quick but that's pretty rare. It's also rare and OP expensive. As a pressure weapon, it's good at what it does but you need something else to land the coup de grace.
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Before the minimum armor reduction went up, HVDs were terrifying because you could punch through midline and high-tech destroyer and frigate armor with them, and because it was possible to make terrifying Enforcer variants that could kite forever. Now... eh, it probably still has too much EMP, but it's a manageable annoyance.
I'd say the light needler is the bigger balance issue, because it actually breaks one of Starsector's design principles (trading flux efficiency for range) by being both the longest-ranged small kinetic and the most efficient (along with truly staggering burst; 500 kinetic damage is nothing to sneeze at). I'd like to see it cut down to 700 range and perhaps have the railgun's range upped to 800, and its flux efficiency reduced.
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I'd say the light needler is the bigger balance issue, because it actually breaks one of Starsector's design principles (trading flux efficiency for range) by being both the longest-ranged small kinetic and the most efficient (along with truly staggering burst; 500 kinetic damage is nothing to sneeze at). I'd like to see it cut down to 700 range and perhaps have the railgun's range upped to 800, and its flux efficiency reduced.
I already prefer Railgun to Needler in many situations.
- It has more kinetic dps per mount. With just 2 mounts this beats Needler efficiency and minor range difference for Medusa (since any kinetic damage is much more efficient than rest of energy slots against shields).
- It is efficient against frigate and fighter armor, Needler does minimal armor damage against almost anything.
- AI can't armor-tank Railgun's stable firing pattern, but will easily do that against Needler's burst (which is especially bad for needler-user combined with above point).
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Railguns are also surprisingly good anti-fighter weapons because they are so accurate. Dual light AC's are ok guns that get the job done for a low OP cost, but they are surprisingly inaccurate.
My main complaint about the light needler is that it messes up ship design balance: any ship with small ballistic mounts needs to be balanced around having an 800 range high accuracy burst kinetic. The gun is a medium mount weapon, with all the range and perks, compressed down in damage.
I'd be happy if its range were reduced to 700 and OP to 8, or something similar. Just a reduction in its kiting potential.
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Railguns are also surprisingly good anti-fighter weapons because they are so accurate. Dual light AC's are ok guns that get the job done for a low OP cost, but they are surprisingly inaccurate.
My main complaint about the light needler is that it messes up ship design balance: any ship with small ballistic mounts needs to be balanced around having an 800 range high accuracy burst kinetic. The gun is a medium mount weapon, with all the range and perks, compressed down in damage.
I'd be happy if its range were reduced to 700 and OP to 8, or something similar. Just a reduction in its kiting potential.
I don't find nearly enough light needlers to begin to balance around every small ballistic mount having one. Both Needler types are Large/Medium weapons pretending to be Medium/Small, respectively. Heavy Needler is better than the Mark IX in many respects and the Light Needler gives the Heavy AC a run for its money. The trade-off is that these things do next to no armor damage and passively rob a ship of OP that could be used for vents, hull mods or other weapons.
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See I dont mind the needler and I actually think its a fair weapon but the HVC gets the best of all worlds and when you them them usually the enemy has like a fleet of ships with them and they just flood the screen with the bullets. Completely unfair.
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Perhaps this is one of the cases where "git gud" is actually appropriate advice? ;)
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See I dont mind the needler and I actually think its a fair weapon but the HVC gets the best of all worlds and when you them them usually the enemy has like a fleet of ships with them and they just flood the screen with the bullets. Completely unfair.
But it doesn't have the best of all worlds. Its OP expensive and low DPS. It's damage vs a well armored target is around 50 and the EMP damage is negligible.
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The EMP isn't negligible; it's 400, the same as the Ion Cannon. It just doesn't arc.
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When you get a couple of them stacked the EMP can make a difference, but on a single gun its not much. A single ion cannon shot every 2 seconds doesn't do much.
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I've always preferred using heavy autocannons over the harder to acquire HVC.
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I like Light Needler to compliment long range beams, especially on a Sunder. It is the only way to make beam configurations work for some ship - kinetics to put hard flux on shield, beams to hit armor (or penetrate shields in case of Ion Beam or Tachyon Lance).
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When you get a couple of them stacked the EMP can make a difference, but on a single gun its not much. A single ion cannon shot every 2 seconds doesn't do much.
The big advantage compared with an ion cannon is that the ion cannons get completely negated by shields. In this sense the HVD is useful under most circumstances, so I often use it for that purpose, if I can't get my hands on some modded kinetic+emp gun, DME and GKS has a few, IIRC, which are slanted more towards damage with some minor EMP.
Not very good for killing things in a hurry, though. And having a Wolf /w Ion Pulser (or a Tempest) or a carrier with Claws or Thunders in your fleet is more efficient for countering shields and inflicting EMP. If you have either, having a HVD on your ship is more insurance than anything else.
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Back when you could get way more extra OP from skills, I used to run a bunch of Enforcers with 2x Dual Flak, 1 H Mauler and then 2x HVD! What a combo that was—especially with the old Combat skills!
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It is still a good configuration for Enforcers, but risky to use since Enforcers are fragile when they use shields. Enforcers are suitable mostly as disposable grunts today - do not mount weapons you cannot afford to lose on them. Unfortunately, Enforcers almost need the long-range stuff to stand up to things like new and improved Hammerhead.
I often reserve HVD and Maulers for cruisers and capitals. Destoyers get stuck with Arbalests and Heavy Mortars (or Pulse Laser and Light AC in case of Medusa).