Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Morbo513 on May 06, 2017, 07:51:51 AM
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To increase the risk factor versus the reward of salvaging and surveying, the action should take time in the same manner as installing a comm sniffer. Right now, you can instantly restore a derelict to functioning condition, instantly loot a debris field, and instantly survey a planet. This means for each of these actions, you're not sacrificing or risking anything beyond the materials it consumes (Supplies, Machinery, Crew). In "reality", these operations would take a hell of a lot of time. With derelicts for example, there's the act of assessing whether it's capable of being restored, what cargo, weapons and materials can be stripped from it. Whether you restore it or not, there's the act of deploying crew, drones or ships to perform the operation, and in the case of restoration, transferring crew to the ship, patching up and initialising any basic systems and refuelling it. You can imagine the similar processes for scavenging debris fields and performing planetary surveys, each of which would probably take a lot longer than dealing with a single entity in space as opposed to an entire planet's surface, or random bits of junk floating about. The point is, it should take "real" time for these actions to be completed. It adds a tradeoff of vulnerability and passive supply consumption, as well as the possibility of failure meaning you've potentially wasted those supplies and made yourself vulnerable for little to no gain.
Edit:
A few more ideas and suggestions have cropped up throughout the discussion.
Some factions could have differing policies on salvage. For example, authoritarian factions like the Hegemony could declare scavenging of ships in their own space illegal, and confiscate the contents/scuttle the ship it if you're caught in the act, in addition to reputation loss and/or a fine.
Other (scavenger and pirate) fleets should contest derelicts either directly (ie pirates setting up an ambush, scavengers fighting you over a powerful ship) or indirectly (simply being there first). This could be expressed as an event upon interacting with the derelict, or (preferably, imo) by those fleets actually being there and having salvaging be in their routine.
Below is the previously included suggestion on surveys, but it's much less relevant at this stage, and my own opinion on it has changed.
I think the team is probably well aware of how bland planetary surveying is at the moment. So long as you meet the skill and materials criteria, you're able to perform the survey at zero perceptible risk, some people have described them as money printers. In my opinion, it'd be more interesting to have to commit an entire ship (Or several, if you choose), its crew and materials to a planetary survey. The initial survey is performed from orbit, for example picking up likely signs of ore deposits or ruins, but to establish the exact location and nature of these elements, boots must be put on the ground. If those initial results aren't looking promising, you can choose to abandon the survey with the preliminary data in hand, which would go for low prices to at least recuperate some of the costs of having ventured out and spent the time doing so. The "actual" survey data you currently gain would be done by establishing sites planetside; The more points of interest you choose to investigate, the more crew, supplies and such you must commit for a lengthy period of time, perhaps even allowing you to depart or hold in orbit if you choose to do so. The risk comes from the planet's hazard rating, and salvaging can be tied into this too. If you send a ship down to a high-hazard planet, you stand to lose that ship, along with the resources committed to the survey. The more you commit, the less time it will take. However, this allows for the possibility of several specialised ships: Recovery vessels that can find the crash-site, possibly rescuing those resources and crew, or if it has the equipment, towing the crashed ship back to your fleet in orbit for restoration. Other ships could be specialised in design for carrying out these hazardous planetary landings in the first place. You could have multi-role ships capable of all these tasks, but expensive in terms of cost and upkeep. Essentially, the idea is to have the player invest in their ability to perform planetary surveys beyond the skill if they want to be able to reliably carry them out, instead of being able to roll out with an almost entirely combat fleet and perform them with the same efficiency.
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The more I read, the more it sounded like boarding making a comeback. No thanks.
I like how the game says "here is what this is going to cost", and then lets me decide if I want to proceed or not. I don't like it when games just up and decide to blow up a ship of mine because of some dice roll (unless the game is built around risk management).
Edit: And installing com sniffers is usually risky because they are actively patrolled by various factions. Having to sit and wait for a timer to survey and salvage would serve no purpose.
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I agree actually that dicerolls are a *** way to handle things. The point I'm trying to make is surveys are currently uninteresting. Starsector is absolutely though, a game about risk management, choice and consequence - right now, neither system carries very much of any; you could just as easily argue they currently serve no purpose beyond gaining you brouzouf (How much is, again, currently determined by a "diceroll")/a ship. Short of what I suggest, or even less realistic, making surveys a minigame or extension of the game its self, I don't see any other way of changing that.
As for salvaging, let's say for example, you come across a derelict, but salvageable Onslaught. But, it's floating around in hostile territory, and has 4 D-mods. In addition, you're on a procurement mission that will expire in 4 days, 2 days away from your destination at best speed.
Now, with the current system, it's a no-brainer. So long as you have the crew and resources the system determines you need for the salvage operation, it's as simple as "Consider Ship Recovery" > "Recover" > Done. You now have an Onslaught in your fleet, but haven't increased the risk of being caught by pirates, and haven't come any closer to your mission's deadline. All you have committed to it can be expressed as elements of a spreadsheet.
Let's say then that with this system, recovering a ship of such size takes a day. Now this changes things; If you commit to the operation, not only will you be losing out on that day to complete your mission comfortably, but you also further increase the risk of failing it by staying stationary in hostile space to carry it out; an attack by pirates will interrupt the process, and possibly land you in a fight you could only hope to run from - meaning you might end up losing most of that day, then attacked, and possibly lose a ship or several, with nothing to show for it because you took a risk and it didn't pay off.
Planetary surveys are consequence-free to a similar degree at the moment. Right now, it's based around meeting the criteria for a given planet, then that's it. When with a more in-depth system such as the one I suggest, there is room for players to determine their own criteria beyond the bare minimum. "I can survey this planet" turns into "I can survey this planet, but".
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I think the issue here is more that surveying is not a complete mechanic. I imagine in the future, you will want to survey planets as potential locations for outposts and that sort of thing. The act of surveying does not necessarily need to be exciting or risky, most of that will come with what you do with data. I imagine it will not be as profitable to simply sell it in the future. Maybe once the mechanic is fully flushed out, if you still think this is necessary, it might be worth talking about, but right now, there's no sense in trying to fine tune and unfinished mechanic.
I think that adding a time delay on salvaging might make the mechanic more interesting if you are a small fleet in the core worlds, running away from pirates and such, but for mid-late game fleets, there are very few actual threats. Maybe in a super dangerous [REDACTED] system you might think twice about salvaging , but in general, it would just make an relatively uninteresting task take longer, and I don't think thats the way to go.
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I like how the game says "here is what this is going to cost", and then lets me decide if I want to proceed or not. I don't like it when games just up and decide to blow up a ship of mine because of some dice roll (unless the game is built around risk management).
But that's just how it works. You don't know if the enemy has a self-destruct or if they are determined enough to press it.
And installing com sniffers is usually risky because they are actively patrolled by various factions. Having to sit and wait for a timer to survey and salvage would serve no purpose.
Yes it would, you simpleton.
It makes such operation risky as it opens you up to attack, as it should.
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I think that adding a time delay on salvaging might make the mechanic more interesting if you are a small fleet in the core worlds, running away from pirates and such, but for mid-late game fleets, there are very few actual threats. Maybe in a super dangerous [REDACTED] system you might think twice about salvaging , but in general, it would just make an relatively uninteresting task take longer, and I don't think thats the way to go.
The point is, even with a late-game fleet you're being subject to the same time delays (With adjustments depending on salvage gantries, skills etc), so it becomes a question of whether it's worth that time to salvage a debris field that might yield 5 supplies and 2 fuel when your fleet consumes triple that in a day, or whether it's worth the time to recover a wrecked-up Lasher when you've a fleet full of powerful capitals. It still delays you from carrying on with whatever your objective happens to be, it still leaves you open to attack if there does happen to be an enemy fleet powerful enough looking for you, and it still gives weight to an otherwise foregone choice.
I do agree with you on planetary surveys. This thread was just going to be about salvaging initially, but then I thought about surveys and might as well throw it in there, after all, ideas are free. I only made those suggestions because right now, the only thing you have to invest is skill points (Which is by no means insignificant) and the time, fuel and supplies to go around these outlying systems, and then it's constant payoff. It's like being able to buy an invincible ship; it cost you the initial investment, it still has passive upkeep and a deployment cost, but you're not risking or sacrificing anything beyond that to reap its benefits.
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And installing com sniffers is usually risky because they are actively patrolled by various factions. Having to sit and wait for a timer to survey and salvage would serve no purpose.
Yes it would, you simpleton.
It makes such operation risky as it opens you up to attack, as it should.
When was the last time you salvaged anything within range of a fleet that could threaten you? Oh that's right, you can't, because the game won't let you. The time is simulated, so you don't have to sit in one spot and wait for ten seconds for a progress bar to fill. Unless there are scripted encounters when attempting to salvage or survey (and those terrible drones don't count), there won't be a risk, because 99% of the time there is never a threat nearby.
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Yes it would, you simpleton.
Not OK. Please keep the tone civil and the ad hominems out of the discussion.
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When was the last time you salvaged anything within range of a fleet that could threaten you? Oh that's right, you can't, because the game won't let you. The time is simulated, so you don't have to sit in one spot and wait for ten seconds for a progress bar to fill. Unless there are scripted encounters when attempting to salvage or survey (and those terrible drones don't count), there won't be a risk, because 99% of the time there is never a threat nearby.
The last time I salvaged anything within 10 seconds of an enemy fleet being able to threaten me was a good 70% of the salvaging I've done, particularly post-battle. The game only prevents you from performing salvage if there's an enemy fleet actively chasing you, and you're within their sensor range, and that's only derelicts/debris fields you encounter outside of battles. 10 seconds is very much long enough for the threat level to change, and for larger/more advanced ships, it'd take even longer.
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The last time I salvaged anything within 10 seconds of an enemy fleet being able to threaten me was a good 70% of the salvaging I've done, particularly post-battle.
You have to be playing with mods that change the game then, because this contradicts everything I have experienced so far playing this game. In my experience, fleets of any meaningful size have always been at least an entire system away from each other. If a time was added to surveying and salvaging, it would just be more time staring at a progress bar with nothing else going on. It would almost be as annoying as those defense drones on every probe. Not a threat, just boring.
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The last time I salvaged anything within 10 seconds of an enemy fleet being able to threaten me was a good 70% of the salvaging I've done, particularly post-battle.
You have to be playing with mods that change the game then, because this contradicts everything I have experienced so far playing this game. In my experience, fleets of any meaningful size have always been at least an entire system away from each other. If a time was added to surveying and salvaging, it would just be more time staring at a progress bar with nothing else going on. It would almost be as annoying as those defense drones on every probe. Not a threat, just boring.
I can certainly see that aspect, but it'd still add more than it'd take away in my opinion. I also like the drone fleets - I think they should scale at least to a degree versus the player fleet though. And for the record, vanilla.
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When was the last time you salvaged anything within range of a fleet that could threaten you? Oh that's right, you can't, because the game won't let you. The time is simulated, so you don't have to sit in one spot and wait for ten seconds for a progress bar to fill. Unless there are scripted encounters when attempting to salvage or survey (and those terrible drones don't count), there won't be a risk, because 99% of the time there is never a threat nearby.
So?
a) let the game let you
b) have the salvaging take long enough that a fleet in-system might catch you
Salvaging is something that should take 24 hours at the very least.
Real Life salvage operation can last WEEKS, having them done in an instant is just stupid.
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I honestly think this is a far more elegant way of handling salvaging/surveying. Instead of having the game arbitrarily decide when your fleet is "vulnerable", we simulate the implications of surveying (i.e that your fleet is at a low level of alert and focused on something other than hostile contact).
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This would just make some of the gameplay so terrible though. You stumble upon a group of derelict ships in a far flung system... and spend the next 5 minutes watching progress bars tick up before you get 30 supplies and 60 metal... I would just not bother to salvage things any more. It's already a part of the game that's kinda tedious, clicking on things one by one and confirming and stuff, and then you add time delays. It would just make uninteresting things more uninteresting.
I guess maybe a middle ground would be salvage time being related to size of object so small ships are instant but large ships take a bit of time, that way if it takes a while, you at least know you might be getting something good. I still feel like it would break up the flow of the gameplay way more than it would provide any benefit.
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This would just make some of the gameplay so terrible though. You stumble upon a group of derelict ships in a far flung system... and spend the next 5 minutes watching progress bars tick up before you get 30 supplies and 60 metal... I would just not bother to salvage things any more. It's already a part of the game that's kinda tedious, clicking on things one by one and confirming and stuff, and then you add time delays. It would just make uninteresting things more uninteresting.
I guess maybe a middle ground would be salvage time being related to size of object so small ships are instant but large ships take a bit of time, that way if it takes a while, you at least know you might be getting something good. I still feel like it would break up the flow of the gameplay way more than it would provide any benefit.
What a drama queen.
It only takes several seconds for a day to pass in Starsector.
Clicking on things? Yea, I know. Horrible. I don't want to have to click. At all. On anything. Better yet, I don't want to press keys on my keyboard repeatedly. So dull. Best make the game play itself and I'll just watch.
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There's literally no point in having salvaging take time though. I dunno about you, but sitting for a while doing nothing because some arbitrary system says I have to for "muh realisms" doesn't sound like a fun time. Hell, even with S-Burn, just getting to other systems can take an awkward amount of time, even with acceleration (yes, there's a risk of being intercepted, but let's face it, it's minute). Not sure about anyone else, but I at least play the game for entertainment purposes, and having lots of empty time of waiting on nothing doesn't constitute as entertaining for me.
Also what's with the hostility? It's a singleplayer(!) game about 2D spaceships. Personal attacks over it seem extremely petty to be honest.
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This would just make some of the gameplay so terrible though. You stumble upon a group of derelict ships in a far flung system... and spend the next 5 minutes watching progress bars tick up before you get 30 supplies and 60 metal... I would just not bother to salvage things any more. It's already a part of the game that's kinda tedious, clicking on things one by one and confirming and stuff, and then you add time delays. It would just make uninteresting things more uninteresting.
I guess maybe a middle ground would be salvage time being related to size of object so small ships are instant but large ships take a bit of time, that way if it takes a while, you at least know you might be getting something good. I still feel like it would break up the flow of the gameplay way more than it would provide any benefit.
What a drama queen.
It only takes several seconds for a day to pass in Starsector.
Clicking on things? Yea, I know. Horrible. I don't want to have to click. At all. On anything. Better yet, I don't want to press keys on my keyboard repeatedly. So dull. Best make the game play itself and I'll just watch.
It's a valid point. In abandoned or Remnant systems you can often find 20 or so derelict ships either floating out there in a group or orbiting a gate. 20 days to salvage the whole group is tedious, especially when you have to click "go", wait, then get choose what you want before you can move onto the next. It'd serve no purpose when there's no immediate threat.
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this is not mmo time sink, nothing should take time at all, traveling to fridge systems also should be instant for player.
it can take ingame time, but not player's time.
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this is not mmo time sink, nothing should take time at all, traveling to fridge systems also should be instant for player.
it can take ingame time, but not player's time.
If you're not willing to devote time to a game, you don't deserve to play it.
If you consider 5 seconds too much, you are spoiled brats.
The only other way to deal with this that would be acceptable is for the salvaging to be instant, but the game forwards time by 24 hours and takes into account if there are other fleets in the system see if they can detect and attack.
However, that is inorganic as hell and relies on a dice roll
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"Dont deserve to play it" what? Games are something that you play for fun. They aren't a rank, or a badge of honour. You don't need to "prove" yourself to anyone if you want to play a game.
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this is not mmo time sink, nothing should take time at all, traveling to fridge systems also should be instant for player.
it can take ingame time, but not player's time.
If you're not willing to devote time to a game, you don't deserve to play it.
If you consider 5 seconds too much, you are spoiled brats.
The only other way to deal with this that would be acceptable is for the salvaging to be instant, but the game forwards time by 24 hours and takes into account if there are other fleets in the system see if they can detect and attack.
However, that is inorganic as hell and relies on a dice roll
devote time to staring into display doing nothing?
are you kidding or -stu- kidding?
probably i should implement mod that delay your every ingame action by 5 seconds, iam sure you will enjoy it and this is exactly mod you deserve.
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If you're not willing to devote time to a game, you don't deserve to play it.
If you consider 5 seconds too much, you are spoiled brats.
I warned you about keeping the tone civil. You've got a PM.
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It'd serve no purpose when there's no immediate threat.
As time passes in SS, different things are happening. In all cases, you're passively consuming supplies. Furthermore, bounties you might've wanted to go after might expire, commodity prices might change drastically in the system you planned to return to; if we're talking Nexerelin style features (Which imo, belong in the vanilla game; maybe this suggestion would be more appropriate as part of it though), your favoured faction might've lost some territory, your favourite markets destabilised. Maybe a scavenger fleet turns up in the system and contests the salvage you're after.
As for time vs reward, the negative of this could be mitigated with something similar to the preliminary survey. You hit an ability, all nearby derelicts will now display what type of ship they are, whether they're able to be restored, and something vaguely indicating the possible gains. Without that ability, you'd be able to establish these factors quickly per-derelict/debris field before committing time to the salvage operation its self. This would allow and encourage you to prioritise which derelicts you investigate first.
The consequence is, you're forced to prioritise what you go for. Is it worth the effort for example to scour a wrecked Kite that probably isn't carrying anything interesting? The answer to that question will change depending on what stage of the game you're at. Right now, there's no reason not to check every derelict and salvage every debris field you come across, unless it's in hyperspace and you don't have the fuel to travel between them (Which is an edge case in my experience).
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I agree with everything trashman says more or less (but I distance myself from the uncivil tone; don't get yourself banned man).
It's rather absurd, this desire for games to be like one of those lab experiments where they have rats press a button to get heroin instantly; not all players want it to be all instant gratification; there should be waiting and challenge too. That other type of game is for wasting time on your phone while you wait for the bus. It's like there's some fundamental divide about two different purposes people play games for (heroin or challenge) and the designer tries to keep pandering to both.
Sneaking around and trying to plant the comm sniffer without getting caught is FUN. Clicking the salvage ability could make a little progress bar start like the comm relay. At the end of the progress bar, you get the normal salvage dialogue. Before you're salvaging a ship it should still 'belong' to its faction, and if an uptight faction catches you salving one of their ships, their might be legal consequences (depending on the faction)
With planetary surveys, maybe rather than a progress bar it should just increment the campaign a day or two while you're landed/in orbit.
I also think this should happen whenever you land at a planet and do something like trade, accept a mission, refit, etc. Sometimes you also just need to lay low for a while when you land at a planet, and wait for the fleets around that planet to go away.
But of course, starsector doesn't have a mechanic for this. It is something so basic, (the idea that doing things takes time), but after 5 years the game doesn't have it. This can be a little frustrating about starsector development; that it still doesn't have some of this basic stuff, yet new mechanics keep getting added before existing ones are solid and fully realized.
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Before you're salvaging a ship it should still 'belong' to its faction, and if an uptight faction catches you salving one of their ships, their might be legal consequences (depending on the faction)
Now this I'd like to see, the thought crossed my mind then disappeared completely. Some factions could have a policy that any wreckage in their systems/vicinity of their markets becomes their property (This'd be befitting of the Hegemony; since they're enforcing martial law, they'd want to do what they can to prevent anyone not explicitly aligned them becoming better equipped - not to mention feeding their own war machine. Tri-Tac could be similarly protective over wrecks that belonged to them due to their advanced technology, and not wanting to lose that edge), some could be very liberal, and individual fleets that have generated derelicts/salvage through their own losses or those of enemies they just fought may want to claim them. Rather than the player simply being able to camp battles between other fleets and scrounge the goodies that drop out, or go around salvaging every wreck they see, they'd have to be conscious of who might object to the act, and the consequences - Confiscation of the ship/salvage in question and maybe a fine, outright attacking (Scav fleets, pirates), etc. That act taking time gives those who might have conflicting interests in the matter a greater opportunity to catch you in the act.
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Yea, I know this may not have been an intended focus of the game but between the terrain types and the sensor mechanics, starsector has evolved really fun "sneaking around" gameplay like those metal gear solid or thief games. I'm all for introducing more opportunities to use it. I like the idea of being able to get away with anything as long as a fleet of that faction doesn't see you doing it.
Morbo, your ideas seem credible. I also imagined the stuffy factions being really uptight about salvage like the hegemony (think the first episode of firefly) whereas pirates simply wouldn't care.
There would still be some random spawning "true" derelicts that didn't belong to anyone of course because they've been written off as a loss with the insurance company (do they still have Lloyd's of London in the sector??)
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I didn't mean to imply that things taking time is bad. I have just found that 90% of salvage is like 3 supplies and 4 fuel, so it is super obnoxious to have to wait to get very little, its already barely worth picking up. I think some of the disconnect here is exploration vs combat. I spend most of my time exploring, so a lot of my salvaging is small change derelicts and random debris fields and the aftermath of occasional bounty fights and such. Perhaps if you are in a civilized system, the salvage is a lot more substantial and there are many more fleets around to the point where this might make sense. I still think that making salvaging take a significant amount of time would make some parts of the game really boring. It already takes time to do the action, and in my experience, the rewards are minimal.
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I didn't mean to imply that things taking time is bad. I have just found that 90% of salvage is like 3 supplies and 4 fuel, so it is super obnoxious to have to wait to get very little, its already barely worth picking up. I think some of the disconnect here is exploration vs combat. I spend most of my time exploring, so a lot of my salvaging is small change derelicts and random debris fields and the aftermath of occasional bounty fights and such. Perhaps if you are in a civilized system, the salvage is a lot more substantial and there are many more fleets around to the point where this might make sense. I still think that making salvaging take a significant amount of time would make some parts of the game really boring. It already takes time to do the action, and in my experience, the rewards are minimal.
That's the point. The game is otherwise letting you have each and every one of those small handfuls of fuel and supplies at zero risk and zero consequence, beyond the dice-roll determined loss of crew/machinery, and the slight course alteration to pick up the ones you stumble into. Early-game, those 5 supplies or 5 fuel could really help you get by, so you should have to risk something to get them (And if it's a higher-tier, restorable derelict, even more so). Late game, they're not worth the effort with or without the action to salvage them taking time. Having a system as I described above for a preliminary assessment of what might be gained from a given derelict or debris field will help players determine what is and what isn't worth that time.
As for the actual length of time it takes to salvage/restore this or that, it'd be variable. A minor debris field would be a second or two, while recovering an Onslaught would take maybe 40. To clarify my stance, I care a lot more about the restoration of ships taking time than salvaging unservicable ships/debris.
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Early-game, those 5 supplies or 5 fuel could really help you get by, so you should have to risk something to get them...
The reason those tiny salvage operations exist is to make the early game a little more forgiving. Making those small drops riskier is counter-productive.
As for the actual length of time it takes to salvage/restore this or that, it'd be variable. A minor debris field would be a second or two, while recovering an Onslaught would take maybe 40. To clarify my stance, I care a lot more about the restoration of ships taking time than salvaging unservicable ships/debris.
I'm all for more risk when doing salvage, but why should I have to sit there for an extra 40 seconds? Have some sort of text pop up and say "Oh no! Pirates were hiding nearby and now you have to fight or flee!" Don't make me just sit there for a minute and watch a progress bar. If there is going to be risk, make it a fun risk.
It's rather absurd, this desire for games to be like one of those lab experiments where they have rats press a button to get heroin instantly; not all players want it to be all instant gratification; there should be waiting and challenge too.
Again, all for more challenge. No one here is asking for the game to get easier. It's just that no one wants the game to start forcing you to sit there with your thumb up your a$$ while nothing happens for 30 seconds. No fun, no risk, just boredom.
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Have some sort of text pop up and say "Oh no! Pirates were hiding nearby and now you have to fight or flee!"
That also has the added bonus of actually being there. There's at least two salvage events that have that exact scenario occur. Now granted one still lets you perform the salvage operation before they ride in to potentially ruin your day, but still.
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Early-game, those 5 supplies or 5 fuel could really help you get by, so you should have to risk something to get them...
The reason those tiny salvage operations exist is to make the early game a little more forgiving. Making those small drops riskier is counter-productive.
And in my opinion, it's too forgiving - and that's not to mention the fact you can start restoring ships right off the bat too.
As for the actual length of time it takes to salvage/restore this or that, it'd be variable. A minor debris field would be a second or two, while recovering an Onslaught would take maybe 40. To clarify my stance, I care a lot more about the restoration of ships taking time than salvaging unservicable ships/debris.
I'm all for more risk when doing salvage, but why should I have to sit there for an extra 40 seconds? Have some sort of text pop up and say "Oh no! Pirates were hiding nearby and now you have to fight or flee!" Don't make me just sit there for a minute and watch a progress bar. If there is going to be risk, make it a fun risk.
I'm all ears for alternatives. And no, it wouldn't be a dicerolled "Here this happened" event, it'd be an actual fleet interrupting you, or a system authority's patrol saying "That's not your ship to restore". Not that I'd be averse to that being included - but I'd prefer for AI fleets to go around salvaging too, and for you to stumble upon an actual pirate fleet/vessel who'd gone dark.
It's rather absurd, this desire for games to be like one of those lab experiments where they have rats press a button to get heroin instantly; not all players want it to be all instant gratification; there should be waiting and challenge too.
Again, all for more challenge. No one here is asking for the game to get easier. It's just that no one wants the game to start forcing you to sit there with your thumb up your a$$ while nothing happens for 30 seconds. No fun, no risk, just boredom.
Your assertion that it'd be risk-free is baseless, especially with the last addition to this suggestion. Go hang about a few derelicts in and around populated systems for 30 (Accelerated) seconds at a time. Count how many scavenger fleets, Hegemony patrols, Pirate or hostile fleets cross paths with you, then you'll have some evidence to speak from. In either case, what is objectively incorrect is that nothing happens in that time - As I've said on multiple occasions; passive supply consumption, market events, bounties, mission timers, the safety of the space around you; With Nexerelin or features future versions of the game may borrow from it, these are amplified, not to mention that the factional landscape of the system can be impacted within such time.
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just a small idea. but maybe give varying timers depending on the action? (pls note all time i provide is a rough estimate and not as a final number)
salvaging a debris field - 2-10seconds
salvaging an derelict ship - around 5 seconds
salvaging a equipment cache - 0-3 seconds
salvaging a research station - 5-15 seconds
salvaging a probe - 3-5 seconds
salvaging a mothership - 5-15 seconds
restoring a derelict ship - 0-10 seconds (based on size and how many D mods it has to get it back into working order. and if restoring multiple ships only take the longest time for all)
surveying a planet - 5-20 seconds (based on size and hazard rating)
when attacked during these periods of time you are missing the crew you sent. so before battle you can pick which ships will be crewed (similar screen to picking which ships you want to restore) so if you sent off 90% of your crew you probably won't be able to use most of your fleet.
and if you retreat during the time period or after you got engaged you will lose the crew you sent and all ships without crew will be considered mothballed for the retreat (or a portion of what you sent will be ejected into a pod near the location you were surveying/salvaging so you can reclaim some of them)
of course adding time for surveying may not be worth it until we get outposts out as there really is no real reason to give them extra time to do for an unfinished part of the game
and if we ever do make salvaging take time we should remove the can't salvage ship because enemy fleet is nearby. no more 1 ship fleets stopping us from salvaging our loot
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For exploration, it's a risk to stop in a system anyway. It costs lots of supplies and fuel. The salvage is your reward for that. Adding additional risk/tedium to your reward just makes it less of a reward. If I stop in hyperspace to salvage derelicts, I'm already spending a lot of additional fuel by stoping. If I'm salvaging post battle, I've taken a risk by engaging in a battle in the first place. Point being, most of the time, in order to get salvage, you've already taken risks, adding more is just pointless. The main exception is if you slink around in an inhabited system trying to pick up the remains of other battles. I don't mind making patrols intervene in that sort of thing or having other hostile salvage fleets. Those are interesting mechanics. Adding time delays is not an interesting mechanic.
the fact you can start restoring ships right off the bat too.
Restoring ships costs 2-3 times what they are worth brand new, it's not an advantage at all, it's a huge penalty. It certainly doesn't make the game easier.
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just a small idea. but maybe give varying timers depending on the action? (pls note all time i provide is a rough estimate and not as a final number)
salvaging a debris field - 2-10seconds
salvaging an derelict ship - around 5 seconds
salvaging a equipment cache - 0-3 seconds
salvaging a research station - 5-15 seconds
salvaging a probe - 3-5 seconds
salvaging a mothership - 5-15 seconds
restoring a derelict ship - 0-10 seconds (based on size and how many D mods it has to get it back into working order. and if restoring multiple ships only take the longest time for all)
surveying a planet - 5-20 seconds (based on size and hazard rating)
...
if you think that *anyone* will be happy just staring into monitor for 20 seconds doing completely nothing
(probably first few times it will be somewhat funny, but only first few times):
A) you are very wrong
B) you need other type of game, there are lots of F2P and mobile\web "games" that does exactly that thing and allows to pay money to skip delay, there are lots of people who enjoy such kind of "fun" for variable reasons, i can't tell that such games are bad and desing is wrong, i simply not going to play such games.
current implementation of SS obviously is not timesink and there are no delays of any kind with exception to com sniffer, that:
1) 2 seconds
2) can be ignored without any issues
3) you actually need to do it only few times per entire game
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For exploration, it's a risk to stop in a system anyway. It costs lots of supplies and fuel. The salvage is your reward for that. Adding additional risk/tedium to your reward just makes it less of a reward.
Yeah, derelicts in unpopulated far-flung systems are the only exception I'd have to this. But making it less rewarding is kinda the point, since the biggest incentive you have for going out to those systems is derelict analysis/running sensor packages/surveying particular planets, each of which have very hefty payoffs with little real risk, mainly just cost - and what risk there is is mitigated by the ease of vessel recovery, and how resilient the player fleet is due to this ability. Even if your fleet is wiped - With the starting cash (And tutorial fleet if you played it) you can open storage and immediately begin building a reserve of recovered ships and weapons, because lord knows there are a lot to be found in and around Jangala at the start.
If I stop in hyperspace to salvage derelicts, I'm already spending a lot of additional fuel by stoping. If I'm salvaging post battle, I've taken a risk by engaging in a battle in the first place. Point being, most of the time, in order to get salvage, you've already taken risks, adding more is just pointless.
Fuel is an investment, not a risk - usually if you're travelling through hyperspace, you make sure you've more than enough to get to your destination and back. It's the beginning of a compelling choice though. "I've spotted a derelict <Favourite ship>, it'll cost me X of Y fuel to determine whether it's recoverable". X will usually be a tiny fraction of Y since derelicts usually have a minimal sensor profile, meaning you're rarely going far out of your way to get to it - and whether you are or aren't, the value of a recoverable ship is several orders of magnitude beyond that of the fuel (and supplies) spent.
Throw in "Oh, there's an <enemy/neutral> fleet already salvaging it. It's <size> so it'll take roughly Z days for them to complete it at most. I can get there within that timeframe, but I'll probably have to fight a battle to claim it and that's only if they haven't finished before I get there.". Or, "There's a Hegemony fleet patrolling around here, the derelict is outside Jangala. It's outside their sensor range right now, but by their course there's a risk of them catching me. It'll take me half a day to restore it, and they're within a quarter. If they catch me, they'll confiscate or scuttle the ship, give me a fine and I'll lose rep." Instantly much more risk/reward.
As for battles, there's two aspects; the ability to recover your own destroyed vessels, and those of the enemy. In the former case, this makes the losses you sustain in battle a lot less punishing. You risked that loss, yes, but the recovery its self is without risk - if it's recoverable at all, and there are many things you can do to insulate yourself from the possibility of a given ship being entirely lost.
In the latter case, you're sometimes rewarded with the choice to salvage an enemy ship, but again this choice its self is without risk, it only demands a relatively small investment. For both cases, let's say you've just won this battle, but there's another enemy fleet up your backside, just they weren't close enough to join. Without a timer, you can recover any of those ships immediately and have them in your fleet. You can then play cat-and-mouse with the enemy fleet til they've been repaired and recovered some CR and they're then employable in combat provided you have weapons to equip them with (Which you're more than likely to).
With a timer, this changes. If you start recovering those vessels, the enemy fleet will doubtlessly catch up to you, but let's say for the sake of argument, maybe not necessarily before you've recovered them and they're spaceworthy. You're presented with 3 choices: Cut your losses and abandon those ships, maybe coming around after you've lost your pursuers; Attempt to salvage them before their arrival; Engage the enemy fleet. Which choice you make will depend on how valuable that derelict is to you.
This is much more compelling than the current state of things - Right now there's no reason not to recover every derelict you generate in battle, provided you meet the supply/h machinery and skill requirements of each. Crew is a non-factor since you can simply mothball them and drag them back to storage, or a market where you can hire crew.
The main exception is if you slink around in an inhabited system trying to pick up the remains of other battles. I don't mind making patrols intervene in that sort of thing or having other hostile salvage fleets. Those are interesting mechanics. Adding time delays is not an interesting mechanic.
And this mechanic requires a time delay to be worth anything. If you can simply wait for a patrol for example to leave sensor range, then instantly salvage the derelict, nobody would get caught doing it except through negligence. If you have to take half a day to salvage it, that patrol might turn around and catch you in the act.
Restoring ships costs 2-3 times what they are worth brand new, it's not an advantage at all, it's a huge penalty. It certainly doesn't make the game easier.
Note, I've been using "restore" and "recover" interchangeably, my bad. I meant recovering operational derelicts in the first place. Tutorial notwithstanding, you can quickly build a strong fleet without doing anything to really earn it, just hovering about the battles between Hegemony and pirates, or going out into hyperspace to find a large number of drifting derelicts, or investing the fuel and supply costs to travel to a sector with a warning beacon and likely finding a heap of them there. The most powerful ships in my fleet (2 Onslaughts and a Mora) were found floating around in different systems with a hostile presence, and it didn't feel like I invested or risked anything significant to get them. Now I have a fleet an order of magnitude more powerful than what I had before, at negligible cost, potential or actual. This is the core issue.
Recovery allows you to gain a ship you might not otherwise have access to through markets or any other means, and in the majority of cases, even having a D-mod ship is more valuable than what you invest to gain it in the first place. You pay a premium to restore it to pristine condition, but this is offset to a huge degree by the payoffs of analysis missions, each of which will probably net you a few new recovered ships by proxy. I don't have a problem with the restoration system myself (In fact I had a similar suggestion a few months back), but the conditions surrounding it.
if you think that *anyone* will be happy just staring into monitor for 20 seconds doing completely nothing
(probably first few times it will be somewhat funny, but only first few times):
A) you are very wrong
B) you need other type of game, there are lots of F2P and mobile\web "games" that does exactly that thing and allows to pay money to skip delay, there are lots of people who enjoy such kind of "fun" for variable reasons, i can't tell that such games are bad and desing is wrong, i simply not going to play such games.
Didn't get the memo letting us know you were speaking for everyone now. The enjoyment from such a change would come from what the timer enables and facilitates, not the timer its self. It's a means to an end, and the only alternative I've seen come up so far is dicerolled events per salvage/recovery operation/survey which would be worse by most accounts including my own. Equating the addition of a 5, 10, 20-second delay to these mobile games where every action takes literal days to complete is grabbing at straws and you know it.
current implementation of SS obviously is not timesink and there are no delays of any kind with exception to com sniffer, that:
1) 2 seconds
2) can be ignored without any issues
3) you actually need to do it only few times per entire game
"The way it is" =/= "The way it could/"should" be". That's the nature of a suggestion.
1) 5 seconds, translating to 2/3 of an in-game day.
2) Same can be said of salvage/recovery/surveys
3) Ditto. In fact, you don't necessarily ever need to do any of these.
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If your goal is to make salvaging a little more risky, I can see a small timer being added making things a bit harder, especially early game in the core worlds.
What I don't get is how surveying should take in-game time to do, since the only time you survey planets is in uninhabited systems. In uninhabited systems, you are incredibly unlikely to run into hostile fleets that pose a threat ([REDACTED] fleets are a minor annoyance to you if you're at the stage of surveying planets en-masse). Thus, adding a time delay to surveying planets wouldn't increase risk at all, and would only make it more bothersome. At the moment, seeing a multi-planet system makes me go "neat, surveying opportunities", but if there was a time to survey on each and every one, I'd probably not bother.
Also, going back to salvaging, I think it is important not just to bear in mind dancing-around-pirates-in-core-systems salvaging, but also late-game salvaging and especially salvaging large clusters of derelict ships or debris clusters when exploring systems; since in both these instances, there is never much risk at all to sulking around whilst salvaging (late game you're a big fleet anyhow, and in unexplored systems I've already mentioned), it would literally just be tedium to make you wait to salvage, especially in the latter case; and adding tedium for tedium's sake doesn't seem fun to me.
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If your goal is to make salvaging a little more risky, I can see a small timer being added making things a bit harder, especially early game in the core worlds.
What I don't get is how surveying should take in-game time to do, since the only time you survey planets is in uninhabited systems. In uninhabited systems, you are incredibly unlikely to run into hostile fleets that pose a threat ([REDACTED] fleets are a minor annoyance to you if you're at the stage of surveying planets en-masse). Thus, adding a time delay to surveying planets wouldn't increase risk at all, and would only make it more bothersome. At the moment, seeing a multi-planet system makes me go "neat, surveying opportunities", but if there was a time to survey on each and every one, I'd probably not bother.
Also, going back to salvaging, I think it is important not just to bear in mind dancing-around-pirates-in-core-systems salvaging, but also late-game salvaging and especially salvaging large clusters of derelict ships or debris clusters when exploring systems; since in both these instances, there is never much risk at all to sulking around whilst salvaging (late game you're a big fleet anyhow, and in unexplored systems I've already mentioned), it would literally just be tedium to make you wait to salvage, especially in the latter case; and adding tedium for tedium's sake doesn't seem fun to me.
On surveys, yeah I've kinda dropped that one, cause as yourself and others rightfully pointed out, extending the time it takes to do so doesn't increase the associated risk. I should update the OP. Again though, it's a suggested means to an end - that end being changing the fact that surveys require little real investment or risk compared to the often massive returns.
I think a big part of the issue people have with the time-delay is that a lot of derelicts are found in these uninhabited sectors and are therefore never contested. I can understand that. The problem still remains that when you do find these clusters of derelicts, you've only invested a chunk of fuel and a handful of supplies to get there to potentially gain a few new ships and if not, a free re-supply. It's also the fact that finding these derelicts and debris fields is concurrent with planets to survey and mission objectives which can be each and any of these new actions. So sometimes not only can you salvage/recover a specific derelict, but you get paid for it too. The only suggestion I have there is spread these things out more amongst the unexplored systems, and don't use the warning beacons to indicate "Hey there's guaranteed to be some stuff in here, come take a look".
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I think I disagree with you about investing a small amount of fuel to find derelicts in systems, since unless you put skills into it recovered ships take a fair amount of supplies to repair and bring up to CR, which can be a risk when you're travelled fairly far into hyperspace away from the core sectors. Not to mention, there's the fuel cost actually getting to those far-flung destinations (and supply cost- it's not always possible to avoid hyperspace storms).
Although, at the same time, I do see your point about recovered ships potentially being a bit too powerful, but personally I don't think putting a time cost on salvaging will fix that.
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I think I disagree with you about investing a small amount of fuel to find derelicts in systems, since unless you put skills into it recovered ships take a fair amount of supplies to repair and bring up to CR, which can be a risk when you're travelled fairly far into hyperspace away from the core sectors. Not to mention, there's the fuel cost actually getting to those far-flung destinations (and supply cost- it's not always possible to avoid hyperspace storms).
Although, at the same time, I do see your point about recovered ships potentially being a bit too powerful, but personally I don't think putting a time cost on salvaging will fix that.
Again, it's entirely contextual. When I say there's no reason not to recover every derelict you come across, I'm talking mainly within the core systems. As for the outlying ones, it's a bit different - recovery of any vessel will decrease your fuel range and potentially slow down your fleet, so in addition to supply consumption and the investment into recovery, you do have to weigh up whether it's worth it so it's already a difficult enough choice. However, if you're short on supplies past the initial investment, you can immediately mothball that ship and bring it home if it's valuable enough to you, or make note of it and return at a later time. If you came across an <insert top-tier ship> though, I'm sure you'd go for it despite a 20 second wait on top of those factors. Regardless, there's at least an equal number of derelicts within those core systems than without, and all those concerns are removed or muted in those cases.
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No.
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The only time recovered ships matter is early game when they can give you a numerical advantage. Once you hit the fleet cap, you want to eventually replace all d ships. Recovering derelicts primarily makes the early game easier (which I imagine was the design intent) but it has decreasing significance as you progress. If you are flying around with an endgame fleet, or even midgame fleet of cruisers and destroyers, you're not picking up the random d-passenger liners and d-hounds you find lying around and you would probably think twice about even a decent frigate or destroyer. They simply waste a fleet slot. My point is, salvage is primarily a mechanic to make the early game easier. The game really needed that and it's doing its job well. I think a lot of veteran players forget how hard and unforgiving the game can actually be to a new player. This feels like arbitrarily making the game more difficult. Maybe for a hard mode or something it could be interesting, but I don't think it improves the game.
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The only time recovered ships matter is early game when they can give you a numerical advantage.
ok, I disagree there. Even in an endgame fleet, d-ships have the advantage of being cheaper to deploy. So even if you have a maxed out fleet, there's some value intrinsically in having d-ships around. Even if d-ships are completely useless in combat, in an end game fleet, you'll likely have enough money to restore most ships to peak condition, making ship salvage a way of getting rare ships that don't show up in markets (like a paragon for a heg player, or a legion for PLS pledge) or just another stream of replacement ships.
This feels like arbitrarily making the game more difficult.
I also disagree here, The only time this system gets you into major trouble is if you're being chased by someone. In that scenario you're not allowed to salvage anyway. The only thing this does in that regard is letting you decide whether if it's worth risking it to proceed with the salvage operation despite the pursuer (maybe you're confident you can take them, maybe you'll be done by the time they get here, maybe those guys don't mean any harm).
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salvage is primarily a mechanic to make the early game easier. The game really needed that and it's doing its job well.
In my opinion, it's doing that job too well. I love the "hobo phase" of any game (See: STALKER, Jagged Alliance, Fallout 1/2, even the Bethryos) that starts you out with *** nothing, more or less against the world, because it becomes extremely rewarding once you finally get out of it and gain some staying power in a fight, yet you still maintain your fragility. Right now, salvage trivialises this part of the game. I went from a Wolf and the salvage ship whose name I forget, to 18 Wolves, 2 Onslaughts, an Odyssey, a Mora, 2 Ventures, and a faction's worth of other salvaged cruisers, destroyers, frigates and utility vessels, and weapons, crew and supplies held in reserve in the space of five in-game years which, accounting for the distances you travel to outlying sectors, isn't very long. So even if this exceedingly powerful fleet of mine gets wiped out, I can come back with one that's hardly any less powerful. And for those ships, I didn't pay a penny; the cost of the crew, supplies, fuel and heavy machinery invested in gaining them is offset by salvaging irrecoverable derelicts and debris fields, and even further so by the huge payoffs of analysis missions and planetary surveys.
In the previous version, even with Nex and SS and other mods, you can spend double that time in the game using the same fleet you started off with and hitting a proverbial brick wall over and over, by scarcity of the good ships you want to spend your hard-earned cash on, and the fact you had to fight for every ship you gain without paying money.
By all means, having it as an option would be nice since this seems to be pretty divisive (But probably wouldn't happen); if not, I can imagine Nexerelin adding this since it already does the same for mining, planetary invasions etc.
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...being cheaper to deploy...
In endgame, this really doesn't matter, money is so easy to come by, the costs are really pretty insignificant, who cares that you save 15 supplies deploying a d hammerhead when you have a paragon and astral in your fleet.
you'll likely have enough money to restore most ships to peak condition...making ship salvage a way of getting rare ships that don't show up in markets (like a paragon for a heg player, or a legion for PLS pledge) or just another stream of replacement ships.
This is a fair point, but I think that these are the rewards for getting into combat with large fleets, not some free ships, and you pay full price to restore, so I don't see why it needs to be changed, I'm more arguing with the OP than you.
I also disagree here, The only time this system gets you into major trouble is if you're being chased by someone. In that scenario you're not allowed to salvage anyway. The only thing this does in that regard is letting you decide whether if it's worth risking it to proceed with the salvage operation despite the pursuer (maybe you're confident you can take them, maybe you'll be done by the time they get here, maybe those guys don't mean any harm).
Difficult was not the right word, uninteresting. Getting you into trouble was the point of the original suggestion. You're right in that it wouldn't matter unless you are in the immediate vicinity of an enemy.
I guess I would be happy if salvaging took time if there were hostile fleets or patrols around but not 'out in the wild'
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I guess I would be happy if salvaging took time if there were hostile fleets or patrols around but not 'out in the wild'
I think the problem with making it situational is that it'd tip you off to nearby fleets even if you cant see them, something the transponder already does when turned off.
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I guess I would be happy if salvaging took time if there were hostile fleets or patrols around but not 'out in the wild'
I think the problem with making it situational is that it'd tip you off to nearby fleets even if you cant see them, something the transponder already does when turned off.
Yeah, this is the main issue with having that approach, it'd be the equivalent of "You cannot fast travel when enemies are nearby". Plus it's inconsistent with what happens as that time passes.
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I mean that really depends on the radius that it detects enemies at. You currently (or at least in the update I have) cannot salvage while enemies are nearby, so the function is already kinda in the game. Obviously if it detected enemies way outside of your vision, that would be bad.
I just really want to avoid sitting in an empty system clicking and waiting for several minutes. It's just such a boring game mechanic in that sense. It might make some play styles more interesting, but it will also hurt other play styles noticeably. I think there is a middle ground somewhere, I'm trying to find it.
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salvage is primarily a mechanic to make the early game easier. The game really needed that and it's doing its job well.
In my opinion, it's doing that job too well. I love the "hobo phase" of any game (See: STALKER, Jagged Alliance, Fallout 1/2, even the Bethryos) that starts you out with *** nothing, more or less against the world, because it becomes extremely rewarding once you finally get out of it and gain some staying power in a fight, yet you still maintain your fragility. Right now, salvage trivialises this part of the game. I went from a Wolf and the salvage ship whose name I forget, to 18 Wolves, 2 Onslaughts, an Odyssey, a Mora, 2 Ventures, and a faction's worth of other salvaged cruisers, destroyers, frigates and utility vessels, and weapons, crew and supplies held in reserve in the space of five in-game years which, accounting for the distances you travel to outlying sectors, isn't very long. So even if this exceedingly powerful fleet of mine gets wiped out, I can come back with one that's hardly any less powerful. And for those ships, I didn't pay a penny; the cost of the crew, supplies, fuel and heavy machinery invested in gaining them is offset by salvaging irrecoverable derelicts and debris fields, and even further so by the huge payoffs of analysis missions and planetary surveys.
In the previous version, even with Nex and SS and other mods, you can spend double that time in the game using the same fleet you started off with and hitting a proverbial brick wall over and over, by scarcity of the good ships you want to spend your hard-earned cash on, and the fact you had to fight for every ship you gain without paying money.
By all means, having it as an option would be nice since this seems to be pretty divisive (But probably wouldn't happen); if not, I can imagine Nexerelin adding this since it already does the same for mining, planetary invasions etc.
I can see a tweak here that might do the trick: - have ship restoration take time. Salvaging restores a ship to minimum working condition. CR won't increase beyond a minimal working amount, and hull can't be repaired above a certain percentage.
Such a ship has to be brought to a shipyard where you will pay for it's restoriation. It would take a few in-game weeks, during which it would be removed from your fleet.
Once completed, it would wait for you in the storage of the planet/shipyard.
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I'm doing a different playthrough now with Dassault-Mikoyan and the Imperium installed. Corsica is a free ship factory with the constant fights between the Hegemony and Imperium, and I've only invested points in the one industry skill that increases the chance of recoverability this time around. There needs to be more difficulty to salvaging in general; a time delay doesn't completely solve the problem, but it would disincentivise me from sitting next to an ongoing battle and hoovering up all the derelicts that fell out. What I described in an earlier post would go a lot further towards doing so, ie fleets noticing when you're been hovering around like a vulture and taking issue with it (or, as previously mentioned, declaring any derelict within systems containing a market of theirs as their property). It could be played with a bit - you could intentionally pick up those fresh derelicts generated from a battle to turn them over to whichever fleet comes out on top, giving you a reputation bonus or financial reward. Some, depending on faction alignment or maybe even randomness could regard such an action as infringement on their property regardless of your intentions, damaging relations in addition to receipt of a demand to turn it over, which would be appropriate as default behaviour if AI fleets performed salvage themselves.
I can see a tweak here that might do the trick: - have ship restoration take time. Salvaging restores a ship to minimum working condition. CR won't increase beyond a minimal working amount, and hull can't be repaired above a certain percentage.
Such a ship has to be brought to a shipyard where you will pay for it's restoriation. It would take a few in-game weeks, during which it would be removed from your fleet.
Once completed, it would wait for you in the storage of the planet/shipyard.
I like this idea, I mentioned something similar when I was talking about salvage/recovery pre-0.8.
Recovery of any vessel, captured enemy or friendly, would necessitate the investment of heavy machinery and supplies to restore its basic functions, as well as time. If these are unavailable, they require a tug to tow them to a port that has the necessary facilities, or conversion of one of your operable ships into a tug with the Monofilament Cable hullmod, expending CR and supplies. If you don't have anything that can serve as a tug, it must be restored on the spot - this could be another utility for the construction rig, speeding up and possibly diminishing the costs of the process.
As you can see, it's more or less the same as what I've been suggesting here.
So combining it with your suggestion and my updated opinion, we now have three options for dealing with derelicts:
A) Bring its basic systems on line allowing it to travel under its own power (Burn speed penalty?), staying in near-wrecked condition until brought to a port. Requires a flat investment of supplies and heavy machinery (which is consumed), crew and fuel.
B) Use a tug and tow it in its current condition to a port for restoration - doesn't require fuel, crew, or supplies for maintenance, but obviously requires a tug per derelict.
C) Restore its basic functions, and facilitate the recovery process with the use of (a) construction rig(s), with salvage-gantry equipped ships able to stand in, but perform worse. This would incur a time delay, but would then restore it to useable condition (Still starting at low CR and hull strength) as part of your fleet on the spot. Would also require a flat investment of supplies and heavy machinery, less than A) as it'd also require crew and fuel along with the passive supply consumption from repairs and CR recovery.
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I feel like those 3 bottom suggestions just raise the 'starting point' of when you can salvage. The mechanic was made so that the player has an easier time building their fleet.
Requiring a tug or salvage gantry could easily hurt a new player financially with their associated fuel costs. And requiring that you spend supplies and heavy machinery on recovering would do the same.
If I can ask, what is the end goal with these suggestions, because it just looks like it's making recovery hard for small fleets, and not really a problem for larger ones.
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I feel like those 3 bottom suggestions just raise the 'starting point' of when you can salvage. The mechanic was made so that the player has an easier time building their fleet.
Requiring a tug or salvage gantry could easily hurt a new player financially with their associated fuel costs. And requiring that you spend supplies and heavy machinery on recovering would do the same.
If I can ask, what is the end goal with these suggestions, because it just looks like it's making recovery hard for small fleets, and not really a problem for larger ones.
The answer to that question depends on when it's asked. I actually started this suggestion off just with logic in mind - The operation wouldn't be instantaneous - then, the gameplay scenarios it'd create - "Oh cool, I found an Onslaught I can recover! Now I just have to hope that a pirate fleet doesn't discover me before I bring it online and get out of here"; which might well result in a battle over the derelict.
To go off on a tangent, such a battle would be pretty interesting, it wouldn't have to be an absolute victory or defeat - Let's say the derelict is in the battle map. Your construction rig would be deployed by default, and you have to defend it and the derelict while the recovery operation is underway - this provides a tangible and relevant point of interest/objective within the battlespace. Once the rig has done its job, the derelict can then retreat from the battle under its own power, and you could withdraw the rest of the forces at will (Then forcing you into a fighting retreat with a mothballed ship to babysit, should the enemy force retain enough strength to pursue*). You could also choose to hold the rig in reserve and go for that absolute victory, or deploy it mid-way through a battle once you feel it's safe enough.
If it's a salvage fleet you're in conflict with, they might directly contest the derelict themselves, bringing a tug or a con-rig to steal it from you, making these civilian ships that would otherwise be irrelevant another emergent objective.
*This would also result in a soft limit of the types of derelicts you can get away with salvaging. If you've got the one rig and few supporting skills, and an otherwise shabby fleet, it's going to take longer to bring online, and your ability to protect it will be diminished, obviously scaling with the size/complexity of the derelict in question. Depending on the exact scenario, a player may be compelled to abandon the effort entirely**
Also note that I mentioned that ships with salvage gantries could serve the role of construction rigs, at an efficiency penalty of some sort - the game currently lets you start with one.
Now the only weak point of this is the question of how often those battles would happen; how often your fleet would be directly threatened while performing a recovery operation, out of the hundreds of ships you can be salvaging without seeing a single passing fleet, hostile or not. This (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12395.0) would go a ways to resolving this and, back to your question, what I feel is the core issue with the salvage system - Recoverable derelicts are far too common and don't demand the risk or sacrifice of anything significant(**), compared to the reward of what are essentially brand new ships you'd have to otherwise earn money, and/or reputation, and/or suspicion to gain.
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A) Bring its basic systems on line allowing it to travel under its own power (Burn speed penalty?), staying in near-wrecked condition until brought to a port. Requires a flat investment of supplies and heavy machinery (which is consumed), crew and fuel.
B) Use a tug and tow it in its current condition to a port for restoration - doesn't require fuel, crew, or supplies for maintenance, but obviously requires a tug per derelict.
C) Restore its basic functions, and facilitate the recovery process with the use of (a) construction rig(s), with salvage-gantry equipped ships able to stand in, but perform worse. This would incur a time delay, but would then restore it to useable condition (Still starting at low CR and hull strength) as part of your fleet on the spot. Would also require a flat investment of supplies and heavy machinery, less than A) as it'd also require crew and fuel along with the passive supply consumption from repairs and CR recovery.
Really like these 3 salvage path ideas Morbo.
The problem with the current salvage is that the salvaged ships sell for so much less than they should. Because its so easy, you can't have players earning big bucks with it. Problem is solved if salvaging is made more realistically costly and time consuming.
A 50% wrecked ship hull should be worth 40% of new replacement cost. Not the tiny sell price we have currently.
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As you note, if a 50% wrecked ship hull is worth 40% of a new replacement cost, then every 3 ship kills is worth a new ship (plus extra for supplies/fuel). That is a lot more wealth than you currently get from bounty fleets. It also means if you're leaving ships behind, you're leaving a large sum of cash behind.
On the other hand, if as you suggest, recovery costs are equal to the remaining value in the ship (or more), then you can't do it early game or after a major setback, which is what I believe it was intended to help with. Because then it costs too much.
Similarly, the D-mod play style where you don't care about throw away ships goes away, because suddenly those ships actually are worth something, namely the investment in time and money, and can't be replaced trivially after battle.
Lastly, if you do have the resources to afford salvaging, might as well buy new. Why spend 50% of the cost of a Hammerhead destroyer to get one with 4 D-mods, when you can buy a new one for merely twice that amount?
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Now the only weak point of this is the question of how often those battles would happen; how often your fleet would be directly threatened while performing a recovery operation, out of the hundreds of ships you can be salvaging without seeing a single passing fleet, hostile or not. This (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12395.0) would go a ways to resolving this and, back to your question, what I feel is the core issue with the salvage system - Recoverable derelicts are far too common and don't demand the risk or sacrifice of anything significant(**), compared to the reward of what are essentially brand new ships you'd have to otherwise earn money, and/or reputation, and/or suspicion to gain.
Yeah, this can't be overlooked. Why go to the trouble of coding an involved "protect" minigame that may only occur once every 100 salvage attempts? Overall, I'm not a big fan of slowing the game down in the name of 'realism,' and even if the slowdown created some opportunity to fight over salvage and derelicts, only within the core worlds are you going to find fleet densities large enough to contest you. To impose 2,3...8 second progress bars on every salvage or derelict, construction rig/tug mechanics, requiring to go to port for repairs, etc. basically makes every loot item outside of the core worlds tedious.
I think there's room to add some more flavor and variety to salvaging stuff but not at the expense of the vast majority of salvage encounters. I don't want to slow down the game for edge cases or add increased complexity simply because "you don't sacrifice enough to get the ship." I'm usually all for creating more meaningful choices but most of the ideas I've read in this thread don't add choice: it adds risk, and only in a minority of circumstances.
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The problems with the current salvage gameplay.
1) Instant recovery of the ship.
2) Battle damage which killed a ship erases too cheaply.
3) Too many wrecks floating about.
4) Recovered D mod ships sell for too little.
Addressing #1 and #2. Ships which died in battle with major damage: exploded reactor core, warp drive damage, in-system drive damage. Need to be towed back to a port for repair. Costs a significant percentage of new ship cost to have it repaired. 20% for each? 3 major systems damaged and your paying 60% of the new cost to have them fixed.
Note that towing increases the salvage cost. No simple and cheap flagging a ship as mothballed and it magically tags along.
Addressing #3. Have the AI salvage ships. Ships that blew apart into pieces? Yeah, thats not going back together.
For #4, your D mods get expanded to include dead major systems. You pay percentages based on the as new cost for in port repairs which remove them.
2 major systems and 3 minor items need repaired. 20 + 20 + 5 + 5 +5. Total repair bill 55% of new. Long distance towing fuel and supply costs. This market will only pay me 90% of the as new cost as they need to make a profit. Hmm, I'm making about a 10% profit on that ship I found.
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The answer to that question depends on when it's asked. I actually started this suggestion off just with logic in mind - The operation wouldn't be instantaneous - then, the gameplay scenarios it'd create - "Oh cool, I found an Onslaught I can recover! Now I just have to hope that a pirate fleet doesn't discover me before I bring it online and get out of here"; which might well result in a battle over the derelict.
To go off on a tangent, such a battle would be pretty interesting, it wouldn't have to be an absolute victory or defeat - Let's say the derelict is in the battle map. Your construction rig would be deployed by default, and you have to defend it and the derelict while the recovery operation is underway - this provides a tangible and relevant point of interest/objective within the battlespace. Once the rig has done its job, the derelict can then retreat from the battle under its own power, and you could withdraw the rest of the forces at will (Then forcing you into a fighting retreat with a mothballed ship to babysit, should the enemy force retain enough strength to pursue*). You could also choose to hold the rig in reserve and go for that absolute victory, or deploy it mid-way through a battle once you feel it's safe enough.
If it's a salvage fleet you're in conflict with, they might directly contest the derelict themselves, bringing a tug or a con-rig to steal it from you, making these civilian ships that would otherwise be irrelevant another emergent objective.
*This would also result in a soft limit of the types of derelicts you can get away with salvaging. If you've got the one rig and few supporting skills, and an otherwise shabby fleet, it's going to take longer to bring online, and your ability to protect it will be diminished, obviously scaling with the size/complexity of the derelict in question. Depending on the exact scenario, a player may be compelled to abandon the effort entirely**
Also note that I mentioned that ships with salvage gantries could serve the role of construction rigs, at an efficiency penalty of some sort - the game currently lets you start with one.
Now the only weak point of this is the question of how often those battles would happen; how often your fleet would be directly threatened while performing a recovery operation, out of the hundreds of ships you can be salvaging without seeing a single passing fleet, hostile or not. This (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12395.0) would go a ways to resolving this and, back to your question, what I feel is the core issue with the salvage system - Recoverable derelicts are far too common and don't demand the risk or sacrifice of anything significant(**), compared to the reward of what are essentially brand new ships you'd have to otherwise earn money, and/or reputation, and/or suspicion to gain.
I like this. I like his a lot.
Also, I think the faction that the derelict belongs to might no be too happy about you taking it.
I suggest implementing salvage fleets that a faction sends out after battles. That means that not all derelicts will be waiting for you forever and derelict recovery is more risky now. Not only are there going to be less of them, but you are in a race to get the best salvage you can. Needless to say, if you are detected by a Hegemony ship salvaging a Hegemony derelict without permission (something you might be able to get with good relations), it will incur a immidiate relations penalty and a fleet will be sent to chases you off and take over the derelict.
You can try to salvage with the transponder turned off - greater risk of *** off the faction, but greater gain.