Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Wyvern on October 10, 2016, 10:42:45 PM
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So, I recently released an alpha version of a mod: Corvidae Light Industries (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11409.0), and one of the included hulls uses LR PD Lasers.
Let's go through the problems:
One: They cost an absurd 100 flux per second. Well, okay, I'm designing this hull to have LRPD as built-in weapons; I can just increase the base vent rate. Let's ignore this problem.
Two: They can't stay on target. Even with Advanced Turret Gyros, they lose lock constantly. Alright. Built-in hullmod that doubles the tracking rate of all beam weapons. Solved - at least as long as you're willing to also install Advanced Turret Gyros. Moving on.
Three: Even when they can stay on target, they don't reliably kill missiles. Sometimes they'll kill salamanders, that have nice long arcing flight paths that keep them under fire for quite a while. Sometimes they won't. Hrm. Well... the ship has a High Energy Focus system; if you're willing to use that to boost your PD, then your PD will actually work. I guess.
However, other hulls don't have the same advantages. I'd like to point out that the damage on LRPD (as well as the basic PDLaser, as well as all of the burst PD weapons, not to mention the humble mining laser) were originally set when you got bonus energy damage from high flux levels - and these numbers were never updated when that feature was removed.
I don't have any specific suggestions for fixes - any changes would require playtesting that I haven't done outside of the one case described above - but the LRPD in particular clearly needs help; as it is, it's simply not worth using if you have any choice in the matter.
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I thought it was generally agreed on that LRPDs are beyond hope, so I'm not sure why you'd want to use them as built-in weapons.
Why use built-in PD at all for that matter, unless the turret is hidden or the weapon ship-specific?
That said, I mostly agree with your assessment. It's one of those weapons that I never even consider if I have any alternative whatsoever.
I'd like to point out that the damage on LRPD (as well as the basic PDLaser, as well as all of the burst PD weapons, not to mention the humble mining laser) were originally set when you got bonus energy damage from high flux levels - and these numbers were never updated when that feature was removed.
I was not aware of that, but it explains a lot. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Try 60/90 dmg/flux per second. Feels pretty nice - not perfect, but quite a bit better.
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While I agree that some of the PD beams could probably use a little bit of help.
LRPD shines in fleet engagements where ships provide cover to each other. An overlapping kill box of LRPD lasers will make mincemeat of many types of missile threats at a range far beyond the reach of ballistic PD... Especially if you stack range enhancing hullmods (including Advanced Optics).
And in the end, energy PD is not supposed to be extremely high performance for if it was it would not segue with the strengths and weaknesses of the different tech levels of ships and would throw balance into chaos.
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Not to mention that a LRPD can also double as a short-ranged tactical laser, which I think is the main reason it hasn't been improved; if you do, you could have on your hands a possibly broken weapon.
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Not to mention that a LRPD can also double as a short-ranged tactical laser, which I think is the main reason it hasn't been improved; if you do, you could have on your hands a possibly broken weapon.
It's not just a matter of less range.
Tactical Laser,taclaser,1,200,1000,75,,,0,20,4,,,,ENERGY,,75,0.1,0.1,,,,,,,2400,,,,,,18
LR PD Laser,lrpdlaser,2,400,800,50,,,0,75,5,,,,ENERGY,,100,0,0.25,,,,,,,3600,,,,,PD,19.5
Be that as it may, I don't need a buff for the LRPD, I'll simply continue to not use it.
The stats look pretty bad to me and I've never really encountered a situation where fleet tactics allowed it to "make mincemeat of many types of missile threats".
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I haven't yet finished the part 5 in my "overall feedback" thread, but i'll quote what i (will) say about the LRPD.
The LR PD Laser is the PD Laser upgrade that offer a double the range bonus. On the other hand, it also double the flux and reduce the DPS. Clunky to use, as it tends to generate undesirable flux by targeting enemy ships. While its ability to intercept threats is better than the PD laser, it is only marginally so. Can be useful when boated on a dedicated PD platform, like the Centurion, for covering allied ships, but not much more.
I didn't had your issue with their inability to stay on target though. Did you had Advanced Optics with it? It lower the turning speed of beam turrets. There's also the possibility you tested it in campaign against ships with Missile Specialization making missiles too fast even for the LRPD.
Still, it stays a pretty underwhelming PD option. Maybe the next update will makes them more useful, as fighters will be more dangerous and missiles slower (due to the skills reworks). Also, an hypothetical 25 ships limit removal would allow for PD boats in the fleet, which works well with this weapon.
Other than that, an ideal buff for the LRPD would be to give it the ability to fire "over" allied ships like fighters can. Not sure if Alex would be willing to do that unfortunately.
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i dont use LRPD
but that is because there are better options:
:- if i have few slots for pd i use Burst PD
:- if i have many slots i use tac lasers and turret gyros and integrated PD AI
the only use for LRPD (IMO) is if u dont have the OP to use burst PD instead ..... but that doesnt mean LRPD doesnt have a niche.
I just chose to have lower OP missiles or a smaller primary weapon than skimp on PD
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Ignoring traversal speed, sweeping arcs, and overlapping fire, the LRPD laser is approximately 25-33% better than the PD laser at taking down missiles. As in, it does 25-33% more damage to a missile heading straight for it, over the course of the laser's range.
The main problem is it costs more OP, turns slower, and uses triple the flux per damage. If it had merely two of those disadvantages, it might be a useful weapon (such as costing more OP and turning slower but using the same amount of flux -- which is still less efficient than the PD laser, by the way -- or having a lower turn speed and worse efficiency but being offered for the same OP as a normal PD laser), but instead it's not a side-grade but a down-grade. 100 flux/second is not trivial at all; spamming it on an Odyssey will spin its flux out of control!
There's also the problem that it's just below the Burst PD, which does almost 3 times more damage than the LRPD laser while charges last, and even its "depleted" fire is not that much lower than the LRPD laser's sustained fire.
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LRPD could fire at two missiles at once and it might be okay, but as it stands it's really bad.
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With a small buff the LRPD would be a good "dedicated PD" weapon. Right now I never use it. Its design sweetspot would be that you wouldnt put it as a one-of on a random loadout without making it slightly suboptimal, while rewarding heavy investment in them on a dedicated PD ship that doubles as a beam boat. More OP than the standard PD laser, less efficient, better at keeping missiles down from further away.
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Tho it is a pretty awesome weapon to shoo away those pesky drones.
I wouldn't mind just seeing it get straight up more damage, and no turning speed reduction while firing.
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Honestly, beam PD is a case where I really miss the old increased damage from high flux mechanics. It made an interesting effect: when you were at low flux, your PD weapons were largely ineffective, and you had to take missile hits on shields. But when you were riding at high flux and really needed your PD working - it did! (There was also a nice crossover point where burst PD went from taking out missiles in two shots, to taking out missiles in one shot.)
I thought it was generally agreed on that LRPDs are beyond hope, so I'm not sure why you'd want to use them as built-in weapons.
Why use built-in PD at all for that matter, unless the turret is hidden or the weapon ship-specific?
That said, I mostly agree with your assessment. It's one of those weapons that I never even consider if I have any alternative whatsoever.
That's actually (part of) why I'm using them as built-in weapons; it's a gun I never ever use anymore - I wanted to see if I could make a ship where it actually worked. And it's a built-in because the ship it's on is supposed to be relatively light on offense but strong on defense - and if I made the ship have the flux stats to use LRPD and just gave it small slot turrets, someone would come along and install IR Pulse Lasers or Antimatter Blasters and make the ship much more potent than it's supposed to be.
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If it turns more slowly, then that's what kills it. Damage, flux, OP and range are a -little bit- on the expensive side but manageable if you have a ship that can fit them. But it needs the turn speed of regular PD Laser or it's gonna run into the same problem that Tac Laser runs into.
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Bumped up the turn rate to match PD Laser, not much of a reason now to keep it lower.
But, yeah, it's meant to be a weapon for a dedicated PD ship that compromises its direct combat ability to be a better escort/support ship. Which is a fairly limited role right now, but it should still, imo, be evaluated in that context. If it's largely not a good choice on a "regular" ship, that's ok.
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PD ships are useless because PD is too good
every ship can be self sufficient even against several ships firing ordinance these days, meaning dedicated escorts are pretty pointless as all you really need is a few ships somewhere near each other with dualflak to destroy all but the most concentrated volleys.
nerf PD plx
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We're going to have Talons with frickin' Swarmers in the next update. I'm not sure i want nerfed PDs on top of that.
(Dual flak is really stronk tho)
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nerf PD plx
Only if you simultaneously boost fleet formations, or rather the entire strategic layer while you're at it.
Leaving the lack of command points in early game aside, "dedicated escorts" for PD aren't really an option when those escorts insist on suiciding to protect the target instead of hanging back and just intercepting missiles.
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Leaving the lack of command points in early game aside, "dedicated escorts" for PD aren't really an option when those escorts insist on suiciding to protect the target instead of hanging back and just intercepting missiles.
That's an AI topic though, the escort command should probably be broken up into different commands, e.g. fighter / missile screen, close escort (aka dont run off mowing down stuff halfway across the map), and agressive / enforcing escort.
A simple escort command doesn't really specify what you want the unit to do, say ordering a frigate to escort a cruiser could mean anything from "draw fire to open up attack vector for the cruiser", "flank and harass", "screen against flanking bombers" etc.
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That's an AI topic though, the escort command should probably be broken up into different commands, e.g. fighter / missile screen, close escort (aka dont run off mowing down stuff halfway across the map), and agressive / enforcing escort.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I was just replying to a request to nerf PD because I don't want dedicated PD escorts to be a necessity before the game offers a reliable way to have them in place.
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LR PD is useless, thanks to poor DPS, higher OP cost than PD laser, and outrageously high flux cost. PD laser or Tactical Laser+hullmods are superior to LRPD laser. The only thing going for LR PD laser is it is very common, more so than all other beam PD.
I did not realize it turned slower than PD laser. Turn rate matching PD laser sounds nice, but that is not enough.
If LR PD laser keeps its flux cost, it needs more DPS and/or lower OP cost. As is, I will never use LR PD laser. PD laser does the job better for less OP cost.
If LR PD flux cost was lowered to match Tactical Laser, it would be fine. It would be a cheap low-budget version of tac laser. Currently, LR PD laser feels like a half Ion Beam without the EMP. Ion Beams are flux hogs!
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If you are going to make a dedicated PD boat, Tac Lasers with IPDAI and ATG would probably preform better than LRPDs, just in general. The comparison for LRPDs should not be to normal PD lasers, it should be to Tacs with IPDAI. Which, if you have at least 4/8/12/20 Tacs, is as OP efficient as LRPDs. If you are keeping IPDAI around that is, which I sure hope you do.
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Even with Gyros and without Optics, Tac Lasers struggle to turn fast enough to intercept the more dangerous missiles. They mostly waste time chasing 'em. If your ship is turning and the target is moving, you'll quickly find a difference between the two. Tac Lasers will flicker on and off and generally be f***ing frustrating to watch without scoring a lot of solid hits, while real PD can keep up. Turning speed on paper looks not that much different, but I think when Tac Lasers are actually firing, they turn much slower than PD.
I find it's more efficient to leave IPDAI out of Tac Laser ships so they can do what they do best.. stick to fighters or bigger threats and take those out that much quicker.
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I'm with Schwartz on this - I consider IPDAI a trap option for tactical lasers. Its not so much an issue now as fighters are less of a threat, but once they are deadly again I don't want all of my pinpoint accurate 1000 range anti-fighter weapons desperately trying to hit a swarmer. Thats what the PD guns are for.
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Any kind PD has to be good enough to be worth using at all, otherwise it's preferable to just concentrate on evading/let missiles hit shield and use OP elsewhere. LRPD doesn't qualify due to laughably bad flux efficiency and hefty OP cost.
As for Salamanders and IPDAI+Gyro+Tac , when you have several ships with overlapping coverage, any single missile is unlikely to have high angular velocity relative to all of them, so tracking doesn't hurt that much.
Intercepting swarmers is kind of wasteful for almost any PD (if other targets are available) for shielded ships. But we don't get configurable target priorities for PD, so that's something to live with.
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Tactical Lasers plus hullmods are viable PD, and it is not a trap option. It has trouble stopping looping Salamanders, but it is great at long-range interception, and it has passthough, which no other PD features. It is not perfect, but no beam PD is (all have terrible stopping power due to low DPS, unlike IR Pulse Laser or ballistics). The only perfect PD weapon is dual flak. Even Vulcans are better PD than beams.
As for PD boat, beams are terrible unless you have a bunch of ships to zap things in a crossfire. If you want a dedicated PD boat, get something with dual flak. The role of dedicated PD boat is completely unnecessary. Most ships have enough mounts to get some viable PD, and it that is not enough for some ships, more ships supporting each other should help.
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half all PD's DPS and add a hull mod that doubles PD DPS
problem solved
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We do not need another OP tax. One (Aurora losing its 360 shields, and needs Front Shield Emitter to get them back) is more than enough.
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For a (semi-)dedicated point defense ship that is supposed to be taking out missiles and fighters from long ranges and covering for other ships, Tacs should generally preform better. Generally, I run Tacs and IDPAI on most of my ships, and the ones I don't run Tacs on usually have no point defense. I tend to do fleet actions more than soloing things. Oh, other people already said this, and said it better.
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There is a way to make LR PD laser better with its current stats - make it hit for hard flux! I know... AI cannot defend against continuous hard flux buildup from beams, but LR PD is such a flux hog (more so than tac laser) that firing LR PD for long is unhealthy for many ships.
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Unfortunately that would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's a PD weapon. PD is in it's name. You don't buff a PD weapon by making it better in a non-PD role.
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The best PD weapons are general-purpose. Look at tac laser or even PD laser with Advanced Optics, or better yet, vulcan and dual flak. Even IR Pulse Laser or Railgun with IPDAI and high Gunnery Implants are effective. Not as reliable as beams and kind of flux-hungry, but they have much better stopping power than beams. (I have used IR pulse laser as combo PD and assault on some ships.)
The biggest thing against hard flux for LR PD is consistency. However, LR PD needs something (more than faster turn rate); it is the Thumper of beams.