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Other => Discussions => Topic started by: Kevin Flemming on June 24, 2016, 02:30:58 AM

Title: Brexit Wins
Post by: Kevin Flemming on June 24, 2016, 02:30:58 AM
This is why I should stay out of political "debates" lol.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Spoorthuzad on June 24, 2016, 03:49:12 AM
Well let's hope this is a step forward for britain and not a leap backwards.
I have a feeling Britain isn't gonna be the only country leaving the EU btw.
Netherlands, france and sweden also have alot of anti-eu people.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Spoorthuzad on June 24, 2016, 04:34:28 AM
Well this was to be expected. the people that voted : "stay" are upset that they didn't win. people will try to find excuses
Whats done is done. What we all can do is hope for the best and that this won't have major negative effects for britain or the EU
Who knows this all might blow over and end up being good for the majority of the people.

Between you and me: I do kind of have a bad feeling about this for some reason. :-\
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: hadesian on June 24, 2016, 04:44:12 AM
Huzzah. Britain exercised its democratic right to self determination. For right or wrong, today, democracy is victorious. And what a victory against the appointed bureaucrats of Brussels.

This is HUGE. I can't stress enough how big this is though. Not merely will the face of British politics be changed forever (Cameron resigns, Corbyn is on no-confidence), but the EU itself is now going to be barraged by referendum requests by its members. This is the biggest event in Europe for decades.

Very exciting.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: hadesian on June 24, 2016, 05:21:59 AM
I was a Brexiteer too young to vote by just two days. My elation is beyond words.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Spoorthuzad on June 24, 2016, 05:35:44 AM
It will definitely be interesting to see where this all goes.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Tartiflette on June 24, 2016, 05:42:24 AM
I hardly think the EU will be "barraged by exit referedums". Not with the major hit to their economy the UK is curently taking (250b€ to save the banks from their troubles with the stock market this morning? Really? Two months after cutting disability pensions for 4.5b€ because UK "couldn't afford it"???) Or with Scotland reconsidering it's independence referendum. Unless they recover fast, I don't see anyone following in their footsteps. Also, you can expect the EU to negociate their exit in really harsh terms, both to get a positive economic balance out of this and also discourage other countries from leaving.

Also in France the Anti-EU parties did 13% last elections, so it is nothing comparable to what hapened in the UK.

What I do expect however is that people might take a closer look to the european elections in general and maybe even push toward changing a bit how it currently work.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Faiter119 on June 24, 2016, 06:50:09 AM
I can't see this ending well, but only the future can tell.

I can see the UK dissolving into only England and Wales, and maybe Northern Ireland. Scottland is going to leave for sure, though it might take some time.

Sad to see the future of the youth that voted ~70% for Remain, decided by the generation that won't be alive to see the impact of their decision. All the best to the UK <3
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: hadesian on June 24, 2016, 08:30:36 AM
I hardly think the EU will be "barraged by exit referedums". Not with the major hit to their economy the UK is curently taking (250b€ to save the banks from their troubles with the stock market this morning? Really? Two months after cutting disability pensions for 4.5b€ because UK "couldn't afford it"???) Or with Scotland reconsidering it's independence referendum. Unless they recover fast, I don't see anyone following in their footsteps. Also, you can expect the EU to negociate their exit in really harsh terms, both to get a positive economic balance out of this and also discourage other countries from leaving.

Also in France the Anti-EU parties did 13% last elections, so it is nothing comparable to what hapened in the UK.

What I do expect however is that people might take a closer look to the european elections in general and maybe even push toward changing a bit how it currently work.

UKIP won only 1 seat and 4M votes in the 2015 General Election. Brexit won by over 1M votes, a turnout of 70%, and 17M votes overall. Times change. The EU has a lot to handle.

I've been speaking with people all day from all across the world. Britain is halved between elation in victory, and disgusting hatefulness towards the democratic choices of others. And Europe? I've spoken to some who are laughing at Britain (and Britain laughs back at them), and others saying 'when's our turn'?
The EU will try to suppress it but the fact is simple - Britain voted out. Brexit happened. Remain was not able to woo with the status quo.
We have stepped through the mystery door. How exciting.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Deshara on June 24, 2016, 09:08:57 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l46CcfCmdORZIHnaM/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Spoorthuzad on June 24, 2016, 09:24:15 AM
Spoiler
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l46CcfCmdORZIHnaM/giphy.gif)
[close]

That is very annoying to look at >:(
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: TJJ on June 25, 2016, 12:50:16 PM
I'm not convinced it'll happen tbh.

51.89% vs 48.11% is far too close to be considered a strong mandate. (only 37.44% of the electorate actually voted to leave)

I envisage 2 possible courses:

1) General election in October, with 1 major party offering to repeal the referendum result. (16M votes will easily win a UK general election)
or
2) Due to the weak mandate, the negotiations will be slow & cautious, and will result in a 2nd referendum on the precise terms of the separation. This period will cause enormous upheaval & cost, but will hopefully knock some sense into the electorate, allowing a reversal of the decision.

Whatever happens, the UK needs to reform its electoral system.
First past the post is terrible, and using referendums to reverse major political decisions without requiring an absolute majority is idiotic.
Of course the 1 recent attempt at electoral reform failed because.... *sigh* voter ignorance?

Quote from: Nigel Farage(May, 2016)
In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way.

So it looks like Farage along with 2.6 Million people are already supporting a 2nd referendum:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215)
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: TJJ on June 25, 2016, 01:02:20 PM
Personal preference to staying in or out. I'm completely on the fence, hence why I didn't vote.

This is an enormous mistake.

You simply can't be on the fence in such a far reaching decision; the result WILL(does) effect you, so you MUST(should have) vote(d).

If you are happy with the status quo, you vote IN.
If you are unhappy with the status quo (and think leaving the EU will improve things), you vote OUT.

Referendums should either be mandatory voting, or require an absolute majority.
Otherwise you get stupid *** like this happening, where the populist vote gets levied resulting in the passive majority being dragged along by a vocal minority.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: mendonca on June 25, 2016, 01:23:36 PM
An interesting part of this is that the simple question was 'in or out'.

Not sure how they can reasonably decide what that means when it comes to the negotiations. Going to get very messy I think - and the 'winners' will (hopefully) quickly become 'losers' when they realise they can't easily deliver any of the practical effects they were alluding to making throughout the campaign and the electorate will hopefully make them pay for their demagoguery.

An interesting piece of information on Radio 4 today - apparently they have 10-20 people in civil service with the relevant experience to deal with international type trade negotiations - and estimate is that they need 100 or so. So (I assume) that means either; status quo access to free market and take free movement (limited negotiations needed); or we take 20 yrs to bring in the right deals. Either won't align with the campaigning rhetoric. First one is fine by me though.

I backed the losing side in this, but I feel like we've made our decision and we need to live with it. Might be a lesson to the younger generation about the importance of voting and making reasoned decisions about your vote.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: TJJ on June 25, 2016, 03:59:46 PM
If you think I should have voted, fine that's up to you. But don't tell me what to do, thank you very much. I chose not to vote because, as I clearly said, I didn't know enough information and felt no preference between the two. I felt right by my decision and that's all that matters. I would appreciate it if you didn't make this about me and kept your posts clear of any harassment about my decision.

For a bit of fun ;)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-should-vote-eu-referendum-7432734

(Not endorsing the Mirror, it was simply the 1st hit for a Google of "should I vote in or out")
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Morbo513 on June 26, 2016, 02:35:20 AM
Personal preference to staying in or out. I'm completely on the fence, hence why I didn't vote.

This is an enormous mistake.

You simply can't be on the fence in such a far reaching decision; the result WILL(does) effect you, so you MUST(should have) vote(d).

If you are happy with the status quo, you vote IN.
If you are unhappy with the status quo (and think leaving the EU will improve things), you vote OUT.

Referendums should either be mandatory voting, or require an absolute majority.
Otherwise you get stupid *** like this happening, where the populist vote gets levied resulting in the passive majority being dragged along by a vocal minority.

The most prevalent arguments from both sides were pretty much full of rhetoric based pretty much on sensationalised speculation. I'm not happy with the status quo, nor am I sufficiently well-informed to be able to decide for myself whether my country leaving the EU was a better option. I'd say the vast majority of people who did vote are in the same proverbial boat, the difference is I acknowledged it. I personally think referendums are nonsense for this reason: The public of pretty much every country are too subject to sensationalist media - educating ones self on the subject of the referendum is not a prerequisite to voting on something with such far-reaching ramifications.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: TJJ on June 26, 2016, 03:25:10 AM
The most prevalent arguments from both sides were pretty much full of rhetoric based pretty much on sensationalised speculation. I'm not happy with the status quo, nor am I sufficiently well-informed to be able to decide for myself whether my country leaving the EU was a better option. I'd say the vast majority of people who did vote are in the same proverbial boat, the difference is I acknowledged it. I personally think referendums are nonsense for this reason: The public of pretty much every country are too subject to sensationalist media - educating ones self on the subject of the referendum is not a prerequisite to voting on something with such far-reaching ramifications.

Completely agree; the referendum itself was a mistake.

However abstaining from voting because of this principle is compounding the problem, as you're delegating your vote to the general populace - a populace who is (on average) even less qualified to make an informed decision.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: TJJ on June 26, 2016, 03:52:50 AM
Wow, the creator of the 2nd referendum petition (now @3.1M signatories) has outed himself as a leave supporter who, like Nigel Farage, apparently has double standards when it comes to democracy.

Quote from: Oliver Healey(on facebook)
Oliver Healey - English Democrats
5 hrs ·
***CAN I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE!!!***
Dear All
Re: EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum petition
This petition was created at a time (over a month ago) when it was looking unlikely that 'leave' were going to win, with the intention of making it harder for 'remain' to further shackle us to the EU. Due to the result, the petition has been hijacked by the remain campaign. Admittedly, my actions were premature however, my intentions were as stated above. THERE WAS NO GUARANTEE OF A LEAVE VICTORY AT THAT TIME!!! Having said that, if it had not been mine, it would have been orchestrated by someone on the remain campaign. However, since I am associated with the petition and before the press further associate me with it I felt the need to better clarify my position on the issue even if it looks bad. I am it's creator, nothing more! The logistical probability of getting a turnout to be a minimum of 75% and of that, 60% of the vote must be one or the other (leave or remain) is in my opinion next to impossible without a compulsory element to the voting system.
I have been opposed to the bureaucratic and undemocratic nature of the European Union as an institution privately for many years and for all of my political career. I have openly and actively lent my support to both Vote Leave and Grassroots Out campaigns - why would I do this if I wanted to remain in the EU? I am genuinely appalled by the behaviour of some of the remain campaign, how they are conducting themselves post-referendum not just with this petition but generally. The referendum was fairly funded; democratically endorsed, every vote was weighted equally and I believe this was a true reflection of the mood of the country. To my fellow leavers, now doubting their decision please keep the faith, we will be fine just stick with it. I believe what we need to do now for the good of the country; is get behind the will of the British people, unite, issue Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon and move forward, with the process of leaving the European Union.
William Oliver Healey
Creator of EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum petition

Poetic justice is real.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Morbo513 on June 26, 2016, 09:38:40 AM
The most prevalent arguments from both sides were pretty much full of rhetoric based pretty much on sensationalised speculation. I'm not happy with the status quo, nor am I sufficiently well-informed to be able to decide for myself whether my country leaving the EU was a better option. I'd say the vast majority of people who did vote are in the same proverbial boat, the difference is I acknowledged it. I personally think referendums are nonsense for this reason: The public of pretty much every country are too subject to sensationalist media - educating ones self on the subject of the referendum is not a prerequisite to voting on something with such far-reaching ramifications.

Completely agree; the referendum itself was a mistake.

However abstaining from voting because of this principle is compounding the problem, as you're delegating your vote to the general populace - a populace who is (on average) even less qualified to make an informed decision.
And I'm indifferent as to the outcome. If I were leaning either direction, it was towards leave but not by much.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Deshara on June 26, 2016, 01:18:52 PM
Well fun fact for people who're emotionally invested in this vote one way or another; back in the 90's, the last time this got voted on, parliament basically stated ahead of the vote that a referendum to leave will probably not actually be put into action. Government is funny that way
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Spoorthuzad on June 26, 2016, 01:46:39 PM
Well fun fact for people who're emotionally invested in this vote one way or another; back in the 90's, the last time this got voted on, parliament basically stated ahead of the vote that a referendum to leave will probably not actually be put into action. Government is funny that way

How democratic  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: TJJ on June 26, 2016, 06:57:53 PM
Well fun fact for people who're emotionally invested in this vote one way or another; back in the 90's, the last time this got voted on, parliament basically stated ahead of the vote that a referendum to leave will probably not actually be put into action. Government is funny that way

90's? The last time there was a referendum on the EU was 1975. Not that I was there; I was born in '80 :-*
That referendum, like this one, was advisory only; not forcing.

Don't forget that in a Parliamentary Democracy the Parliament is elected by the people to govern in the interests of the people.
If Parliament cannot find a way of interpreting the referendum result in a way that is in the interests of the people, they're legally bound to disregard it in favor of acting in the people's interests.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: CrashToDesktop on June 26, 2016, 09:19:28 PM
I don't live in either the EU or Britain, but take this for what it is - even though 51% of Brits voted to leave the EU.  But there's still the 49% of the people who most definitely did not.  Democracy is funny that way.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Deshara on June 27, 2016, 02:20:17 AM
51% of Brits voted to leave the EU.  But there's still the 49%

30% voted. Baby Boomers are one of the most motivated voter base in the world, so you generally can't assume that the people who didn't vote agree with them, since apparently the #1 thing that gets pensioners out of bed is trying to destroy the country just before they pass away so they can leave the worse world possible for their grandkids. If 15% of a population turns out to be a bunch of xenophobic ******** doesn't mean you can extrapolate their headrot to the 35% that didn't vote.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Serenitis on June 28, 2016, 12:50:53 PM
Brexit was a political stunt gone wrong. This entire thing is like living in a production of The Producers, and no-one has a damn clue what to do about anything. Zero plans made etc.

And the fash are already out doing their thing.
link (http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/14584289.Nazi_stickers_with_racist_and_homophobic_messages_found_in_Glasgow_following_EU_referendum/?ref=rl&lp=1)

brb. vomiting uncontrolably.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Cik on June 28, 2016, 02:20:08 PM
fuggin gommies :DDDDDDDDDD
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on June 28, 2016, 11:38:57 PM
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/hTzcshN.png)
[close]
Felt like this fit here
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Serenitis on June 29, 2016, 11:16:46 AM
I think I've figured it out.
There's nothing to worry about. It's just a game.
Europe is having a LARP holiday, the theme is "the 1930's" and we're cosplaying Germany.
It's fine.

Spoiler
(http://66.media.tumblr.com/1b828434dae9eeca52080576870ff4b9/tumblr_inline_nf8ucvxIsH1rp8xbw.png)
[close]


Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Cik on June 29, 2016, 12:49:41 PM
yuo are a nadzi :DDDDDDDDD

i don't know about you guys but i think brexit is hilarious and the gloom & doom totally overdone

the EU, regardless of the conveniences it provides is an undemocratic USSR-esque formation of a internationalist cabal answerable to no one with an extraordinarily nebulous mandate for a pan-european unification that not one of it's member states actually asked for. for mutual defense NATO is already a thing and all of this wolves on the border song & dance is totally ridiculous.

but you know i'm sure any minute now farage & friends are going to unfurl the swastika and declare their intention to annex france for lebensraum or something.

any minute now..

Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Goumindong on June 29, 2016, 05:51:28 PM
No it's not. You vote for MEPs. And Brussels has limited authority as agreed upon by your sovereign bodies. Hell its limited authority is its largest problem since it lacks the power to fix accounting imbalances inherent in a currency union*...which the UK isn't even a part of!

You ponces literally voted to cut your nose to spite your face. The majority of your excess labor and exports are services (finance and education and so on) and you just voted to give all that up. And then on top of that you're not going to get better deals with anyone as you were because your prime advantage to non-EU states was as a stopover into the EU!  And then, on top of that, entry into the single market will require abiding by EU regulations anyway so you literally just voted to have less representation! And then there is the fact that the rest of the Union actually wants to stay so you might have just screwed 300 years of tradition and Union so that you could be worse off.

The mandate for a European Union is literally world war 2 in that "you know this is he second time we have done this recently maybe we should take steps to ensure that our nations, being intertwined, do not do it again".

And people in the UK are probably less worried about annexing France as they are getting hit by a Molotov cocktail.  (https://www.google.com/amp/www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/molotov-cocktail-thrown-halal-butchers-11535781.amp?client=safari#). So you know actual tangible holy *** fascism right here folks, in your England.

*basically the reason why the US doesn't run into Greek style crisis is because the Federal govt subsidizes States off the books. These imbalances occur because currency fluctuation should occur to deal with productivity differences but can't when currency is unified thus no equilibrium in either capital or good current accounts.
Title: Re: Brexit Wins
Post by: Serenitis on July 01, 2016, 11:32:52 AM
You ponces literally voted to cut your nose to spite your face.

Everything is awful. (http://www.lbc.co.uk/im-so-scared-now-german-woman-hit-by-xenophobia-calls-james-in-tears-132971)