More generally I don't think any ship with energy mounts can be considered top tier (at least when considering the vanilla weapons set).
- Dominator should be tier 3 or 4; extremely over costed hull - too little flux dissipation & OP to effectively utilise its mounts.
- Sunder -1 rank too; average speed, average shield, pathetic armour, ineffective mountings, AI is useless with it. Horrible ship.
- buffalo 1/2 not tier 5???? I suppose if their role is to die every battle, then they fit your tier definitions well ;)
Paragon better than Onslaught???
Don't make me laugh!
I intend to take both ships down a peg in my next version, for the record.Noooooo!!!
OT: My only issue right now is that the Aurora and Apogee aren't equal. What makes the Apogee better than the Aurora? I mean while the sensor drones are powerful, they are obliterated by emp aoe, templars and dumbass AI that sets them to free roam... Also, it has TWICE the crew requirements compared to the Aurora!
Moved Dominator to Tier 3; apparently, people have experienced poor results from that cruiser. It's done very well in my own experience, but whatever.Eh, it seemed fine at Tier 2. Vulcans in my experience are fine at killing missiles. And those pair of large mounts can bring to bear two Mark IX autocannon - and as the description says, can still maul armor despite having a Kinetic damage type. And Annihilator spam (albeit nerfed in SS+ if I remember because they explode upon reaching max range) is powerful. :D And with the next patch, Salamander spam is going to get good. Real good.
TT's frigates are nowhere near as good as the Imaginos. That ship is so good it deserves a tier of it's own. Not that with the AI though.The Imaginos is not quite as overpowering as it used to be. That and the fact that the AI can do just about nothing with it makes it a Tier 2. You have to pilot it, meaning you're not using something bigger.
Re: Shadowyards. They were pretty OP in Uomoz's old version but supposedly have seen some tweaking and a Logistics increase as well. So in that regard the scores would be outdated.These are based on the current versions.
@ Wyvern: Small fast ships as in frigate and destroyer hordes, with possible fighter support, as used by Gedune and some other mod factions (maybe Blackrock and/or Nomads, at least in Exerelin). If I use standard ships in simulator, Apogee is not quite fast enough, even with Helmsmanship 10 and Augmented Engines, to stay away from everything and it dies. Plasma cannon cannot blast several frigates/destroyers at once (i.e, you blast one, the other six or more ships flank and destroy you), and few burst beams will not do much to them. Aurora and Doom are barely fast enough to stay away as long as they can maintain +75 speed zero-flux boost.
I'm not the best captain, but I can take my favourite build of Dominator up against up to two Capital Ships at a time, or one Capship and a swarm of lessers, or any three Cruisers. I'll be battered by the end of it, but I'll have succeeded, barring captain error.I'm assuming this is in the simulator? What sort of build / character skills / tactics do you use for that? And how well does it fair against high-end bounty fleets (things like the dreaded combat 10 onslaught are significantly more threatening than, say, a Conquest and an Astral in the simulator...)
Yeah, the Mimir is now moved to Tier 1. And I added the # of flight decks to ships in the list, for good measure.
I'm not the best captain, but I can take my favourite build of Dominator up against up to two Capital Ships at a time, or one Capship and a swarm of lessers, or any three Cruisers. I'll be battered by the end of it, but I'll have succeeded, barring captain error.I'm assuming this is in the simulator? What sort of build / character skills / tactics do you use for that? And how well does it fair against high-end bounty fleets (things like the dreaded combat 10 onslaught are significantly more threatening than, say, a Conquest and an Astral in the simulator...)
As an aside, I'll repeat my earlier statement: the Shadowyards Mimir should be tier 1. It's possible to come up with a no-skills variant that will reliably beat the simulator paragon... under AI control (the hard part, at least with SS+ installed, is finding armament that's strong enough to prevent the ship from acting civilian and running away, but low enough on flux generation that the AI won't vent and let the paragon hit it with lances. This is easiest to do with a specialized loadout using neutrino weaponry, but I was able to find a more general-purpose build that also worked). And as a player flagship, it can singlehandedly take on any fleet in the game - including both Templars and the Luddic Purification Fleet.
the Mimir is, if I'm not mistaken one of the only capital ships with a teleportThe BRDY Karkinos has one too, but the cooldown on it is a lot longer, as is the windup to the actual port. Its also less friendly to setup and has more complex firing arcs.
I think the Venture is Tier 3. Its in combat performance is solid - while its not a pure combat cruiser, its missiles give it a real punch (that can be reconfigured for ranged support or strike as needed - very flexible). It is also exceptionally durable - capital grade armor. Combined with a flight deck, its a threat at all ranges that is difficult to remove. Out of combat it has a very nice cargo capacity and low support profile. A tough, jack of all trades ship.
The Tempest I remember is a nightmare in the AI's hands, if properly outfitted. Dodging missiles, kiting larger ships, blocking everything on that little shield, it really has it all.All except shot range. Tempest cannot kite, but it is fast enough to not need to, if piloted by AI or player with twitch skills. It also only has one missile mount, so it cannot pump out as much spike damage as other frigates.
Can you dodge incoming fire from an enemy capital with Combat 10?
Tier 5 ships are actually okay, but try to limit the amount. Nobody wants to play a mod where everything sucks, after all.
I have one idea for improvement though, and that is making carriers a category. Right now, they are mixed with the respective ship size i think. They really deserve a disambiguation.I disagree with your claim that you'll never compare a Heron or a Condor to an Enforcer. Every time you add a ship to a fleet, you evaluate whether that ship fits the composition you want better than the other available ships. Which is better, a Heron or a Venture? The answer depends on what else is in the fleet, how you want to use the fleet, and how you want to develop the fleet. If there's only one fighter group, say a Xyphos Wing, then the Venture is arguably a more suitable carrier and is probably a better choice right now, due to being a heavier warship, but if you want the fleet to transition to a more fighter-based force the Heron is probably the better choice for the long run.
For example the Heron is listed under cruisers, and the Condor is listed as a destroyer. Now, while they may technically belong to those categories, you will never compare those against an enforcer, but rather against each other.
Tactical lasers on Apogee is most useful for forcing the enemy AI to keep its shields up at greater range.The version I suggested above isn't vulnerable to swarms of small ships; anything small enough to outrun it is also small enough to die in just a few heavy blaster hits - or to be forced to back off after taking even just one on shields. Yes, you have to maneuver to keep some distance and limit your exposure; you can't just charge into the middle of a large pack of frigates. But even there, it takes a lot of frigates to threaten an Apogee. (Versus like, oh, maybe three or four to threaten a Dominator.)
I think Apogee is good, but overrated. Its firepower is somewhat lacking, and while it can kite big threats, it is vulnerable to swarms of small ships.
When I wrote swarm, I meant lots of ships, like five or more. Also, if mods are included, it is not just frigates, but also destroyers and occasionally fast cruisers with mobility systems.
@ Wyvern: Small fast ships as in frigate and destroyer hordes, with possible fighter support, as used by Gedune and some other mod factions (maybe Blackrock and/or Nomads, at least in Exerelin). If I use standard ships in simulator, Apogee is not quite fast enough, even with Helmsmanship 10 and Augmented Engines, to stay away from everything and it dies. Plasma cannon cannot blast several frigates/destroyers at once (i.e, you blast one, the other six or more ships flank and destroy you), and few burst beams will not do much to them. Aurora and Doom are barely fast enough to stay away as long as they can maintain +75 speed zero-flux boost.
I'll agree that a plasma cannon / burst beam Apogee isn't well suited to fighting that sort of fleet. But that doesn't mean that the Apogee can't - currently running SS+, Templar, Neutrino, Shadowyards, and Interstellar Imperium. Just tried one Apogee (with player skills) versus every frigate in the simulator. Victory was relatively easy - only had to vent once while anyone was in range to shoot at me, at the cost of basically all my armor and a tiny sliver of hull. No, you can't stay away from everything. But you can kill or force to back off everything near you, vent while you've got an opening, and repeat as needed.
For reference, the variant I used was 2x heavy blaster, autopulse laser, 2x burst PD, ITU, augmented engines, hardened shields, stabilized shields, 45 vents, 17 capacitors.
I'm not seeing how this and the Apogee (glorified mule :P) are the same tier. Maybe it just really suits my play style, while the apo just really doesn't.Definitely a case of preferences; I've tried the Zenith and found it to be far too vulnerable to flanking and just generally fragile compared to the Apogee. Sure, it can get more firepower lined up against a single target, but the Apogee is just plain safer to fly, thanks to improved range and the second strongest shield in the (vanilla) game.
Yay! Preferences!
This is a nice reference, but I'd rather not see it stickied. When a new player picks up the game, a large part of the fun comes from trying out each ship to see which ones suit their playstyle the best. Having a big tier list locked at the top of the forums takes away much of this exploration.The list just tells you "how good" the ships are though. It doesn't detail what they do or how they actually behave.
I'm just not seeing the Apogee in T2 in the base game. It doesn't excel at anything as far as I can tell, and the firepower is definitely lacking. What kind of configuration makes it T2 worthy?
Thanks for the clarification =) I read this post quite a while ago, I just didn't get around to posting about it till recently.
Also, I am not sure it is fair to say that most people play modded without some sort of polling metric to back that up. I personally do not use any mods, I prefer the basic game.
If it is a question of role, looking at the forum lists, most people seem to assume the tiers are based upon sheer combat power, and in any case there really isn't a list of roles that are to be considered and to what importance. Whatever the reasoning is behind the tiers, the wolf is both more versatile and more powerful at every role than the lasher.It is about overall combat power. If not, Atlas would be tier 1 for hauling everything to powerlevel via trade, but powerleveling is good mostly for fighting. Player only needs max Leadership (for +80 Logistics) and max Technology (for max Navigation) to haul commodities in bulk.
I need to do some testing with standard OP levels, but I loaded out an eagle with 3 HVDs and 3 Phase Lances, and it absolutely destroyed things. It's become a staple of my fleets. In player hands, or more accurately in player ownership, the eagle can be devastating. As such, I really think it deserves to be where it is.Any reason to use HVDs over cheaper alternatives? It seems like the extra range is wasted if Phase Lance is your primary attack. If you need to get close enough to use Phase Lance, wouldn't the cheaper and more damaging Heavy Autocannon be more effective? If you want the extra range, why not replace one of the HVDs with a Mauler to damage armor if you need to snipe from beyond beam range?
Tier 2One thing Eagle can do very well is kite-and-snipe. Otherwise, it feels like "a jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none". My gut feeling says Eagle is (high) tier 3, although it could be low tier 2.
A very good ship, typically one that performs one role very well and can hold its own in other situations. Not as versatile or all-performing as a Tier 1, but still competitive.
...
Tier 3
A solid ship. Either acts as a jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none, or specializes very well for one role at the cost of being sub-par at everything else.
Also, all the tiers are based 50/50 on player use and AI use. A ship unbeatable in player's hands won't make it to tier 1 if the AI keep dying with it. The Tempest deserve it's tier because it's a very VERY good ship in both cases, it has be known to allow players to take on full fledged fleets right from level one, but the AI can be an incredible annoyance with it too.
This list only covers Starsector + and vanilla.
This is a resource and an ongoing effort to categorize ships, both vanilla and modded, on a scale of general usefulness.
Could you add ORI ships? A lot are tier 1-3 in my experience.
Actually, I believe this list is intended for all up to date mods and vanilla.Yes but but it would be unfair to ask DR to test ALL the mods ALL the time... If you want to see them agigabyte, why not proposing a preliminary list so that he can add them quickly? Same goes for the other factions.
Recent gameplay changes, such as ballistics gaining unlimited ammo and all ships gaining peak performance. In earlier versions, Apogee can solo fleets as long as it takes to do the job while Dominator and Eagle can run out of ammo before finishing off a defense fleet. Now, something like Dominator (or even Eagle) can outfight the Apogee (and not necessarily Dominator vs. Apogee, but comparing Dominator vs. fleet and Apogee vs. fleet), and the Apogee cannot rely on time or the enemy running out of ammo anymore like it used to.
When I flew the apogee I didn't rely on the enemy running out of ammo, I rekt their faces with my super awesome shield and pulse lasers!Megas doesn't do anything like the rest of us do them. If it can be exploited, he does it. Don't bother trying to say anything other than that to him. It's really not worh the effort. :P
Aurora is decent, but really needs a mobilty system to work with the short range of energy weapons.Or some of its missile hardpoints changed to universals. If it could use ballistics, then it can use beams like Phase Lance effectively instead of (being limited to) Heavy Blasters. Even more energy weapons means it is not stuck being fat Medusa with big missiles.
Apogee's medium mounts are ~100 pixels farther back than Aurora's medium mounts.And it basically doesn't matter, because an Apogee has a 'free' +30% range to its weapon systems as long as it has two sensor drones out. Despite being ~100 pixels further back on the sprite, it can still hit things ~10% further ahead of the bow.
Tactical lasers are a decent option if Apogee wants to fool the enemy to keep its shield up from beyond blaster/plasma cannon range. Need the enemy to keep its shield up while your ship backs off to dissipate excess flux? Threatening them with tactical lasers will help.Seconded. You really can't go wrong w/ them, they are amazingly versatile IMO.
Flagship Paragon is more dangerous than flagship Onslaught.Strongly disagree. A flagship Paragon is too slow and doesn't have the range - aside from its lances which don't do hard flux and are easily dodged or blocked by other enemy ships. It may be harder to kill with reaper swarm, but it's much less dangerous, and it's much easier to kill with long range non-missile weapons. Essentially any decent cruiser can take down a Paragon - I wouldn't hesitate to engage one with even just a Falcon, let alone the stronger cruisers like Eagle, Apogee, or Dominator.
Frigate swarms with as many missiles as you can throw in there, beats all.
Frigate swarms with as many missiles as you can throw in there, beats all.
Frigate swarms with as many missiles as you can throw in there, beats all.
PD Onslaught can hold off the missiles of the missile Onslaught. It'll crush a bunch of one-shot frigates.
I'm not sure why would you want to balance gimmicky strategies in a Single player game.
Perhaps someone should draw up a PvP(1v1) tier list.
How do you imagine the meta would evolve?
Would kiting & manoeuvrability dominate?
Would fleet sizes effect composition?
What size ship is the human fleet commander most efficiently utilised in?
Lots to think about!
Well, if MP did ever happen, it would probably be very hard to get any profits at all, as usually when you get out of a "safe-zone" (tutorial) you will be eliminated by OP enemy players with 25 ships in their fleet. You will not be able to level up, so anyone will be able to catch up to you will defeat you.
So really it wouldn't be fun. Its like Minecraft with diamond vs wooden sword.
What I'm talking about is standalone multiplayer battles; 1 fleet vs 1 fleet.
Initially 1 Player v 1 Player, but Many vs Many might be viable in the more distant future.
It'd go something like this:
- Main menu -> multiplayer
- Connect to master server to retrieve live players list. Interface for chatting(via master server), and selecting an opponent.
- Once opponent (peer) is chosen, and successfully connected to -> game configuration screen. (various game options & fleet building screen)
- peers share game/fleet configurations, and sync input states.
- begin synced* game simulation (*deterministic lockstep; buffer inputs & transmit, UDP -> concatenate un-acked packets for minimum latency)
- (for the future)transmit user inputs to the master server too (TCP), allowing for archival of games, and even near-realtime spectating of games in-progress.
- (for the future)back-end database (hosted on the master server) for recording games, player stats, managing leagues etc
SSME provides the means of hooking into SS classes for enforcing determinism, input capture/replacement, injecting the new front-end menus, and mangling the various parts of the game logic that will need it.
Though this is highly coupled to internal SS code, so to avoid wasted effort I shan't progress any further with it until 0.7 is released.
The master server stuff is work-in-progress.
The deterministic lockstep simulation engine is planned out in my head, and can be implemented stand-alone as it's not fundamentally tied to SS.
The other back-end spectating/persistence stuff are just ideas for 'added value' features that would be possible to pull off with such a multiplayer model.
Kind of derailed this thread; sorry.
Back on topic!
Enforcer for life!
Honestly, its hardpoint selection + armour + speed make it totally awesome! A very powerful & flexible yet forgiving ship.
Better than a Lasher at.... Lashing.
Better than a Dominator at.... Dominating.
Enforcer for life!Enforcer is very good. It is ubiquitous, and you can give it mediocre or good weapons and it still performs well. Also has Burn Drive, an excellent ship system. When burn speed is not a factor, I let the AI pilot several Enforcers because they kite, missile spam, and patch up after battle faster than Medusa, the only other stock destroyer that can fight as well. (As a flagship, I prefer Medusa, but for AI, Enforcer is more practical.)
Honestly, its hardpoint selection + armour + speed make it totally awesome! A very powerful & flexible yet forgiving ship.
Better than a Lasher at.... Lashing.
Better than a Dominator at.... Dominating.
The Hammerhead at least feels way more powerful than before. The standard variant is awesome, pops frigates in a snap.Standard? You mean Balanced? The one with HMGs?
As a side note, I discovered the most OP loadout for the Dominator - a pair of Mark Xi Autocannons and triple Harpoons Pods, LAGs and LACs in the 4 front turrets and a pair of Flak Cannons and Vulcans in the rear to round out the PD. This gives the enemy (destroyers and all variants of cruiser) simply two options - overload and take a *** ton of Harpoons to the face, or take a *** ton of Harpoons to the face. Fire the Harpoon Pods (just 2 are needed for most destroyers, bar the Enforcer, for insta-nuke) when they're close to overloading at the same time when you fire off a burst from the Mark IX Autocannons. Voila, a freshly-made wreck.I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but the Dominator is batsht OP with that loadout. It can take on multiple destroyers of all shapes and sizes at the same time and come out on top without a scratch. It can even take on a couple of cruisers if you concentrate your fire enough and use your shield sparingly. I'd almost consider bumping it up to Tier 1, but somewhere in the middle seems better. Eh.
Not sure I like the Conquest being burn speed 7; I always felt the uniqueness of the conquest was its "capital firepower in a cruiser package".
I also think Dominators have the potential to get another boost this version by staking the +50% and +75% maneuverability unlocks (on top of the usual skill). Add thrusters and I imagine the things can spin like tops now (haven't tested yet).It does.
Talar, the mere fact that the Hyperion (A FRIGATE) can feasibly get some shots in on a Paragon speaks for itself. :PMany frigates can feasibly get in some shots at a Paragon. Omni shields mostly deploy centered on the line connecting the center of your ship to the center of their ship, so you can generally shoot around the edge while it's deploying, and there are a number of frigates capable of closing to within firing range before getting killed. What distinguishes the Hyperion isn't so much that it can get shots off against a Paragon's hull as that it can feasibly defeat a Paragon without need for supporting ships in the hands of a not-particularly-skilled but reasonably careful player.
Talar, the mere fact that the Hyperion (A FRIGATE) can feasibly get some shots in on a Paragon speaks for itself. :PAnd more importantly, survive after that.
Do you guys really think that the Asura is that strong? Feels like the Morpheus deserves that tier 1 slot more.The Asura used to be a Destroyer, and for a destroyer it was that strong! It is still great though.