Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Lawrence Master-blaster on February 24, 2025, 08:56:21 AM
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Pretty self-explanatory. Something like +25% replacement rate? It's a big bonus but currently there are no Officer skills that directly benefit carriers at all so I'd say it's fair.
Although that would probably also require changing Carrier Group bonus. Or not.
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Reordering the industry tree to have a carrier friendly combat skill in second tier rather than industrial planning in third tier could be cool!
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Nanoforge Overclock
+1 flux dissipation per OP spent on fighters
-10% damage to fighters at 0% fighter flux, scaling to no bonus at 100% fighter flux.
Elite
+10 flux capacity per OP spent on fighters
-25% fighter overload duration
+25% fighter dissipation speed while venting
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I agree completely, a personal combat skill for fighters would be appreciated and Industry is so weak + Industrial Planning is such an awkward skill that I think it would benefit the game a lot!
As for the skill's effects, I think the effect should either boost fighter defenses or offenses. Replacement rate is nice and all, but I'd rather feel like my fighters are doing something rather than just sending fields of sacrifices at the enemy to die in a hail of PD.
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If it has to be a carrier skill (which I am not thrilled about), then something like +1 to fighter wing for more fighters per wing.
It should be easier for the player to get the +1 to commodities for himself.
I would like IP to change toward something like BotB #2 and swap places with Hull Restoration... or swap with Field Repairs, where tier 1 IP just gives the +1 to commodities like it does for NPC admins while a high-tier Field Repairs gives in-combat bonuses plus everything else it has now.
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If it has to be a carrier skill (which I am not thrilled about), then something like +1 to fighter wing for more fighters per wing.
It should be easier for the player to get the +1 to commodities for himself.
I would like IP to change toward something like BotB #2 and swap places with Hull Restoration... or swap with Field Repairs, where tier 1 IP just gives the +1 to commodities like it does for NPC admins while a high-tier Field Repairs gives in-combat bonuses plus everything else it has now.
what do you think about my idea of Ordinance Expertise for fighter bays with some minor fighter buffs attached?
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what do you think about my idea of Ordinance Expertise for fighter bays with some minor fighter buffs attached?
Not something I care about if I do not use carriers in the fleet. This is why I prefer a more generalist combat skill replacement for whatever Industry skill gets the axe and replaced.
P.S. I suppose specialized combat skills in Industry would be okay if more than one skill gets changed or overhauled. Just removing IP only, not enough for a specialist skill (Industry still underpowered if affected ships are not used). Merging some of the non-combat skills into one, like Makeshift Supplies and either Salvaging or Containment Procedures, so that there are at least two vacancies in Industry, now there is room to add more real combat powers in Industry. Industry needs an overhaul to support specialized combat skills akin to Phase Coil Turning, Wolfpack Tactics, or carrier skills.
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A combat skill for carriers is an interesting idea, since carriers don't go red tree very often. Opens up yellow tree as something you can use if you don't want to go into direct combat, but still want to control a ship and make a difference on the battlefield. Ordinance Expertise to let you overflux it a bit when combat does show up, and polarized armor to make you more survivable when overwhelmed makes for a decent build for a backline carrier.
That said, some players will want the +1. I'd just merge a carrier-related bonus into it (ideally related to manufacturing fighters faster/more reliably), justified around the idea that having practical knowledge of nanoforge operation makes you a better manager of industrial processes at scale. Some flavor text from a Tri-Tachyon executive about needing to understand technology even when you're not the one operating the console, and it's all wrapped up neatly.
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I do want the +1 from IP. Admins can have it easily, but it would be nice for the player to get it easily too. Tier 3 IP is too expensive for the player unless he wants a capstone (but Hull Restoration is too underpowered for itself and non-combat Tier 3, so that leaves Derelict Ops as the only interesting enough capstone).
Commodity demand seems to expect IP to meet it, unless player uses items (which gets punished by Pather cells), so I want every planet to have IP eventually. So far in my games, I have taken IP because I wanted Hull Restoration, despite my dissatisfaction with Industry at endgame. With pathers getting half interest as a crisis reward, I may finally get tired of Industry and dump it for a meta Combat/Leadership/Tech character instead of the underpowered Combat/Tech/Industry (HR) that I have mostly played.
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A combat skill for carriers is an interesting idea, since carriers don't go red tree very often. Opens up yellow tree as something you can use if you don't want to go into direct combat, but still want to control a ship and make a difference on the battlefield. Ordinance Expertise to let you overflux it a bit when combat does show up, and polarized armor to make you more survivable when overwhelmed makes for a decent build for a backline carrier.
That said, some players will want the +1. I'd just merge a carrier-related bonus into it (ideally related to manufacturing fighters faster/more reliably), justified around the idea that having practical knowledge of nanoforge operation makes you a better manager of industrial processes at scale. Some flavor text from a Tri-Tachyon executive about needing to understand technology even when you're not the one operating the console, and it's all wrapped up neatly.
"Fighters below 50 armor gain doubled armor up to a maximum of 50 armor" e.g. sparks go to 40 armor, claws/talons to 50
Just an example of a bonus that I feel could fit into industrial planning for carriers
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@mr. domain
I just think it is too complicated and specific. A simple catch-all fighter skill like "does 20% more damage" is so much simpler for a player to intuit its effects AND is so much more generally applicable to fighters. When I look at possible skills I try and trend towards the simplicity of vanilla skills. Most vanilla skills are really quite simple and straight-forward, it is just when they get moxed in with actual ship builds and s-mods and fleet composition that you start to see those fine differences and nuances. Let hullmods add crazy text boxes like Ballistic Rangefinder or Missile Autoloader :p
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@mr. domain
I just think it is too complicated and specific. A simple catch-all fighter skill like "does 20% more damage" is so much simpler for a player to intuit its effects AND is so much more generally applicable to fighters. When I look at possible skills I try and trend towards the simplicity of vanilla skills. Most vanilla skills are really quite simple and straight-forward, it is just when they get moxed in with actual ship builds and s-mods and fleet composition that you start to see those fine differences and nuances. Let hullmods add crazy text boxes like Ballistic Rangefinder or Missile Autoloader :p
Good point, my idea could be interesting for a hullmod...
I don't think a flat damage bonus would really work with fighters unless it was strongly constrained in when it applies, we can't have fighter spam take hold. Extreme bonuses to small numbers of fighters are the way to go for balance purposes
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I do see the potential for things to get out of hand. On the other hand, I'd rather fighters be a bit overpowered than underpowered, and this is a personal combat skill so it wouldn't be quite as easy as ye olde fighter spam where any unofficered Drover would do the trick. I do think there is room for reducing fighter engagement range without it dropping to DTA (0) levels, but I think that is hullmod territory.
Honestly speaking, I think the old problems with fighter spam are not unlike today's problems with missile spam, in that a couple outliers (Drover + Spark, Gryphon + Squall Harpoon) are dragging the category down a bit. But I could see it either way; since updates come so far apart, a big balance issue would be around for a long time, so caution is warranted (just not excessive caution to detriment of gameplay).
I wonder if it would be so crazy for fighters to get a "fighter Support Doctrine" personal combat skill, where they get Helmsmanship, Damage Control, Combat Endurance, and Ordinance Expertise? No +damage but lots of little boosts that would add up to better survivability. Or give them Target Analysis, where that damage boost only applies to ships that already have great PD coverage (capitals and cruisers).
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I do see the potential for things to get out of hand. On the other hand, I'd rather fighters be a bit overpowered than underpowered, and this is a personal combat skill so it wouldn't be quite as easy as ye olde fighter spam where any unofficered Drover would do the trick. I do think there is room for reducing fighter engagement range without it dropping to DTA (0) levels, but I think that is hullmod territory.
Honestly speaking, I think the old problems with fighter spam are not unlike today's problems with missile spam, in that a couple outliers (Drover + Spark, Gryphon + Squall Harpoon) are dragging the category down a bit. But I could see it either way; since updates come so far apart, a big balance issue would be around for a long time, so caution is warranted (just not excessive caution to detriment of gameplay).
I wonder if it would be so crazy for fighters to get a "fighter Support Doctrine" personal combat skill, where they get Helmsmanship, Damage Control, Combat Endurance, and Ordinance Expertise? No +damage but lots of little boosts that would add up to better survivability. Or give them Target Analysis, where that damage boost only applies to ships that already have great PD coverage (capitals and cruisers).
You could definitely give effects similar to those skills in a "fighter support" combat skill, but there's difficulties in directly translating those skills to fighters. I see what you're going for though and I'd be happy with that kind of solution.
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Let's change every skill to an officer skill, and and number of same skills in fleet increase any cap for when the skill becomes less effective.
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If we're going to poach a skill from Yellow and put a skill into Green, but folks are already declaring Yellow underwhelming, what does Yellow get for compensation then?
Sincerely, A Logistics Enjoyer.
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More combat power so that Yellow has the option for combat stuff instead of mostly campaign stuff no matter what you take. I like Industry because I like both tier 2 combat skills (I like OE for more flux and PA for faster venting). Also, restore Ordnance Expertise to its former glory (or least add the missing 0.5 to dissipation at elite so that human officers do not get it so easily). It is not the player's fault officers do not follow the same rules to get it so cheap and may be overpowered on them, while player pays two points for one combat skill in Industry.
IP for the player could be replaced if he got it for free or earned it as a special quest reward. IP could stay if it had a better player-only bonus that is useful all game or if demoted to tier 1 so it can be a prereq for the useful tier 2 skills. Currently, all of the tier 3 skills are dead weight at endgame when logistics is no longer a concern (and alpha core farming gives all the IP and colonies the player wants). The tier 3 skills could have a combat benefit attached to them. Containment Procedures could buff ships' mobility systems in combat (like add more speed like Helmsmanship or faster system recharge like Systems Exp.). Makeshift Supplies could repair ships faster in combat like Damage Control. Industrial Planning could reduce DP of ships by 1 or 5%, or add +5 to maximum ship limit (from 30 to 35).
P.S. Maybe IP could have this meta-power to replace +50% to production. Raise DP pool limits on skills that have them by 25%, so that Crew Training, Flux Modulations, and Field Repairs have 300 DP limit instead of 240, Phase Coil Tuning has 50 DP instead of 40 DP, and Automated Ships has 150 DP instead of 120 DP. Also, Carrier Group can use 10 fighters at full bonus instead of 8. Reducing DP ala Support Doctrine, but not as much has a similar effect of boosting max DP for skills.
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@happycrow As Megas said, pretty much replace Industrial Planning with the newer better skill. Industry becomes better, hurray!
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@happycrow As Megas said, pretty much replace Industrial Planning with the newer better skill. Industry becomes better, hurray!
Although if IP is the only skill replaced, then the replacement skill has to be generalist and not specialist that affects only a small group of ships or else those who do not use those ships are no better off than before. Two skills need to be replaced to make room for a specialist skill like a carrier skill.
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@happycrow As Megas said, pretty much replace Industrial Planning with the newer better skill. Industry becomes better, hurray!
Although if IP is the only skill replaced, then the replacement skill has to be generalist and not specialist that affects only a small group of ships or else those who do not use those ships are no better off than before. Two skills need to be replaced to make room for a specialist skill like a carrier skill.
I see what you are saying, but Polarized Armour is pretty specialized other than its elite effect (which does nothing for the AI) and Ordinance Expertise is already the generalist. My thinking about adding a personal ship skill for fighters was that it buffs fighters (like the fighter skills already present) without being quite so easily spammable. You wouldn't have to take the skill if you didn't pilot a ship with fighters, just like you don't take Ballistic Mastery if you don't pilot a ship with ballistics.
If you want to buff Industry's effects in combat in general rather than specifically buff fighters then I can sympathize with the thought, but it isn't very relevant to OP's topic unless you have a suggestion for how Industry would change to buff fighters.
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I see what you are saying, but Polarized Armour is pretty specialized other than its elite effect (which does nothing for the AI) and Ordinance Expertise is already the generalist. My thinking about adding a personal ship skill for fighters was that it buffs fighters (like the fighter skills already present) without being quite so easily spammable. You wouldn't have to take the skill if you didn't pilot a ship with fighters, just like you don't take Ballistic Mastery if you don't pilot a ship with ballistics.
If you want to buff Industry's effects in combat in general rather than specifically buff fighters then I can sympathize with the thought, but it isn't very relevant to OP's topic unless you have a suggestion for how Industry would change to buff fighters.
Sure, but if you want a capstone in Industry, then that fighter skill is useless to you if your fleet does not have a carrier in it, and the status quo of lack of combat power remains for the player dissatisfied with Industry.
With Combat, there are alternatives depending on want the player wants. With Industry, Ordnance Expertise and Polarized Armor are it before capstones, and Hull Restoration itself is underwhelming as a capstone in terms of combat power (and its campaign power can be replicated by high enough income at endgame, possibly enabled by alpha cores).
AI does not need to worry about prereqs or capstones, you just take it for them. Player is the one who has to worry about tiers and prereqs with his 15 skill points, and player is the one who can easily get elite on any skill and vent spam with Polarized Armor kind of like in older releases.
But a fighter skill in another tree would be nice. Probably combat skills in general should transfer some bonus to do this, not just Point Defense.
P.S. One more thing. Industrial Planning does not need to be removed for a fighter buff. Replace the player-only production buff with whatever combat buff (so that the player has a reason to take IP instead of farming more alpha cores for that job). It was a reason why I suggested lower DP on ships (even if not as much as the other two skills that do this) because that might buff fighters too (by making carriers cheaper and maybe put an additional carrier's fighters in battle).
Of course, alpha cores can just not have IP (or really go rogue and steal your colony) and then player may want IP simply for the +1 to commodities only, although that would not be ideal (player gives up combat power for IP to be on par with commodity production.)
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Thematically, I'd think the correct choice here would be to take the existing Carrier Group skill effect, add all of its effects to Industrial Planning - so that the skill helps you build things including fighters - and then replace Carrier Group's effect with a boost to fighter damage & durability.
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I think that trying to balance around the end game is a mistake. If you balance around the end game and most of yellow is built around logistics, that's basically just saying that yellow shouldn't exist. I don't think that's a viable way of approaching this. If you wanted a carrier skill for yellow and the question would be in my mind, what can you add in yellow? That gives carriers the sort of soft bonus to resilience that the other yellow skills give? Everything I can think of fits much better under Green or else isn't carrier-specific, but I'll brain it.
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It is not so much balancing for endgame as it is that campaign skills are just not useful at endgame (or less useful than combat buffs needed to defeat superior opponents late) when player has more resources than he needs and plenty to spare. Industry has too many campaign skills (six with no direct help for combat) and/or not enough combat stuff. The other three trees do not have this problem. The logistic skills ought to be like Leadership's Tactical Drills, which is part combat (+5% damage) and part campaign skill (more raiding). Hull Restoration as it is would be a great tier 3 skill (assuming +15% CR to the fleet is worth tier 1 like Crew Training), but it lacks oomph as a capstone.
Industrial Planning and the rest of tier 3 Industry ought to be like Tactical Drills, part-combat/part-campaign.
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Okay . I'm not much seeing it but I'm not a big endgame player -- once I've hunted Ordos I usually restart.
IP: (as stated)
Ship: if a system or skill's effect is limited by bays: +2 bays
If a skill's effects are limited by DP, +20DP.
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Thematically, I'd think the correct choice here would be to take the existing Carrier Group skill effect, add all of its effects to Industrial Planning - so that the skill helps you build things including fighters - and then replace Carrier Group's effect with a boost to fighter damage & durability.
Honestly this feels right. Keeping the Industrial Planning bonus to planetary industry and giving it that softcapped fighter replacement rate bonus would make it into a really cool and thematic skill with mixed campaign and combat application. The key here then would be to make Carrier Group's new bonus balanced yet effective.
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Turns out I overlooked the half crew casualties in Containment Procedures, which is a combat buff in a way (like Blast Doors) for fleets that plan to die then self-resurrect, which seems to favor the Derelict Ops. build. If I do not want to care about casualties at all, I would pick Derelict Ops and not care who dies, and I would need reserves to absorb losses. Hull Restoration is not good at ignoring casualties, not when it encourages picking up fallen enemy ships and fixing them (and fixing many enemy ships with HR takes forever, so I still do not want my own ships to die). I guess Containment Procedures is okay, just more appropriate for fighter spam or zombie junker theme fleet and not for the typical fleet. Easier e-burn is nice, but not enough to be worth a skill point, but if player plans to die-and-resurrect, he needs extra crew, and Containment Procedures might be helpful enough for that.
As for Carrier Group for Industrial Planning, that can go either there or Makeshift Supplies instead. Makeshift Supplies looks like the "fix things with duct tape" or MacGuyver-ing skill. Makeshift Supplies is another skill that seems underwhelming for its tier, just less supply loss. Surveying boosts looks like a early/mid-game thing.