The Ox tug gets no love and no one uses itI don't think that's true... Imo is the Ox fine the way it is.
The ox is used, as I understand it, almost exclusively by min-maxer players who absolutely must have burn 20 even with their fleet of battleships and atlases. This is a category that I am not in, but I know some people on the forum will talk about 'needing' so many tug-boats for a given fleet.
On the one hand, with the 30 ship limit, it wouldn't be at all unreasonable to cut the Ox's logistics costs down.
...On the other hand, I still think the game would be better off going back to a fleet point cost limit rather than a fixed number of ships, and if it did that, the Ox would still need high logistics costs relative to its size.
...On the other hand, I still think the game would be better off going back to a fleet point cost limit rather than a fixed number of ships, and if it did that, the Ox would still need high logistics costs relative to its size.
Ox tugs are for the fleet where logistics costs no longer matter or if you are concerned about controlling when and where the fleet engages.
Ox tug running costs are high for an early game frigate combat fleet or exploration fleet, but those types of fleets tend to already be fast anyways. They are not meant to increase your trade profits per time by 10% via shortening delivery time.
Consider, if you drop into a red Remnant system, you can outrun any of their fleets simply by having a base burn speed of 10. In that kind of case, they can be extremely valuable.
Late game, assuming you're running Navigation, 2 Oxes are cheap compared to the rest of a full 240 DP combat fleet with logistics train. Even 3 Oxes isn't bad if you are not running the Tech tree - but at that point it usually means Industry, which also has options to mitigate the running costs.
Consider, I can make 350k credits (or more) per late game intel screen bounty, or 600k credits from a late game contact bounty. Do 2 bounties, earn roughly 1 million credits. A pair of tugs, assuming we flew literally to the corner of the map and back to the core worlds over the course of 2 months, would cost:
5 fuel/light year * 2 tugs * 100 light year round trip * 25 credits = 25,000 credits.
10 supplies * 2 tugs * 2 months * 100 credits = 4,000 credits
4 crew * 2 tugs * 2 months * 10 credits = 160 credits
Now my combat fleet with capitals and cruisers is probably running me (3 Capitals, 6 cruisers, 2 Prometheus, 1 Atlas):
66 fuel/light year * 100 light year round trip * 25 credits = 120,000 credits
270 supplies * 2 months * 100 credits = 54,000 credits
2250 crew * 2 months * 10 credits = 45,000 credits
So adding 2 tugs is about a 13% increase in running costs, and maybe 3% of the gross profits of flying to the corner of the map and back. Only 1.5% of that gross profit if I'm only going out 25 light years and then back.
So, I'm in that group that typically runs 2 Ox tugs if my character has Navigation late game. Generally with s-modded Insulated Engine Assembly and s-modded Efficiency Overhaul and maybe solar shielding. At a 75% bonus XP rate, it is pretty cheap to s-mod Ox tugs, especially compared to Prometheus and Atlas logistic ships. And since I typically run iron man, I do it for the engagement control rather than simple travel speed across the map.
I think if you are that late in game money doesn't matter. However the 30 ship limit does. Given the choice I would pick almost any ship over the Ox because fleet speed is less of an issue when 2 armadas clash.Imo: Everything which makes my gameplay faster is welcome, and that's exactly what more burn does, endgame or not, but especially endgame. Vanilla and not wolf pack I also never need more than 30 slots, probably around 15-20 + logistics. But sure, a fleet with war ships instead of tugs is stronger, but do I really need more war ships?
When I think of the spirit of the tug boat it leans more towards heavy trade fleets
On the thought of logistics and late game ship count maximization, I recently had an idea related to the Ox tangentially. It's about the Revenant, though.maybe the actual answer to fixing this issue is nerfing the insulated engine assembly to no longer provide a 90% profile reduction...
So, the Revenant was unique before s-mod bonuses with how it was both a cargo and fuel ship and also had phase field for the sensor radius bonus. However, I feel like the advent of s-mod logistic bonuses have made Revenant a bit redundant. It's a very rare, interesting logistic ship, it should feel cool to get it and make it a mainstay of your fleet for a combat-minded player, but I never care anymore since if I truly want to remain stealthy, I can s-mod Insulated Engines onto my Ox, Atlas and so on. If I want a bit extra fuel, I can s-mod fuel cargo onto my atlas. Stuff like that. I've even started S-modding in Additional Berthing on my Ox ships if I really need that extra crew space.
That made me think it could be nice if Revenant had something extra to make it stick out. What if Revenant was given the Ox's Drive Field Stabilizer hullmod? It could then be used as a special hybrid logistic ship that Atlas, Ox or Prometheus could never do, even with s-mods!
But the field stabilizer is a big huge beacon and that's the opposite a revenant wants
The ox is used, as I understand it, almost exclusively by min-maxer players who absolutely must have burn 20 even with their fleet of battleships and atlases. This is a category that I am not in, but I know some people on the forum will talk about 'needing' so many tug-boats for a given fleet.
On the one hand, with the 30 ship limit, it wouldn't be at all unreasonable to cut the Ox's logistics costs down.
...On the other hand, I still think the game would be better off going back to a fleet point cost limit rather than a fixed number of ships, and if it did that, the Ox would still need high logistics costs relative to its size.
The ox is used, as I understand it, almost exclusively by min-maxer players who absolutely must have burn 20 even with their fleet of battleships and atlases. This is a category that I am not in, but I know some people on the forum will talk about 'needing' so many tug-boats for a given fleet.
The ox is used, as I understand it, almost exclusively by min-maxer players who absolutely must have burn 20 even with their fleet of battleships and atlases. This is a category that I am not in, but I know some people on the forum will talk about 'needing' so many tug-boats for a given fleet.
On the one hand, with the 30 ship limit, it wouldn't be at all unreasonable to cut the Ox's logistics costs down.
...On the other hand, I still think the game would be better off going back to a fleet point cost limit rather than a fixed number of ships, and if it did that, the Ox would still need high logistics costs relative to its size.
I also like the idea for fleet point limit. Particularly if it grows with your level. However, I've been told that 200 + ship fleets of 1-2 dp ships isn't enjoyable to play with or play against. Particularly giving orders to 200 ships individually, and the entry of 200 ships and the mess of each of them trying to go to a different location. There's also the technical edge case with integers- Fleet points aren't fractional. This means for low DP ships, 3 DP might be too strong, and 4 DP unusablely bad.
My personal suggestion is to have frigate/destroyer wolfpacks. Conceptually, it would work by having you assign up to 4 frigates/destroyers or 20 dp max into the same "ship slot". After that they act line a single larger combined ship. In the ship editor, you see and edit all of them at the same time. During deployment, They all deploy in the same grid location, just a little offset so they are not intersecting. In combat, they'd stick very close to each other, as well as sharing an officer, and you can only give orders to the greater combined unit of them. Kind of like how all the fighters in a wing behave as one. Additionally, in combat, they also stagger which one engages at closer range, so you don't get the spacing crunch issue of 50 frigates trying to surround a battleship. This would be a bit of work to code up, but it allows the 30 slot fleet limit to stay, re-embrace a fleet point limit, solves the issue where you don't have enough officers for frigates if you go mass frigate, and solves the issue of having too many ships to order around in combat. They might even share a combined combat rating so they all retreat as one unit too.
But, people not so interested.
I think if you are that late in game money doesn't matter. However the 30 ship limit does. Given the choice I would pick almost any ship over the Ox because fleet speed is less of an issue when 2 armadas clash.
When I think of the spirit of the tug boat it leans more towards heavy trade fleets trying to get an edge over pirates and hustling to the next big trade. Its about lower income fleets trying to pick up the pace. Not end game battle fleets in deep space
The idea is to make it a rational option for anyone not just min maxers. When I watch YouTube videos let's plays most dont mess with them. Sure their are a few weirdos
I'm just saying it deserves a look at a rework that's all. Also I don't think you should be able to make your fleet faster than the Ox itself
So, the Revenant was unique before s-mod bonuses with how it was both a cargo and fuel ship and also had phase field for the sensor radius bonus. However, I feel like the advent of s-mod logistic bonuses have made Revenant a bit redundant. It's a very rare, interesting logistic ship, it should feel cool to get it and make it a mainstay of your fleet for a combat-minded player, but I never care anymore since if I truly want to remain stealthy, I can s-mod Insulated Engines onto my Ox, Atlas and so on. If I want a bit extra fuel, I can s-mod fuel cargo onto my atlas. Stuff like that. I've even started S-modding in Additional Berthing on my Ox ships if I really need that extra crew space.
That made me think it could be nice if Revenant had something extra to make it stick out. What if Revenant was given the Ox's Drive Field Stabilizer hullmod? It could then be used as a special hybrid logistic ship that Atlas, Ox or Prometheus could never do, even with s-mods!