Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Juno on May 14, 2024, 04:35:15 AM

Title: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 14, 2024, 04:35:15 AM
Good on paper, terrible in reality.

You killed doritos, hauled the materials, got it working.
Install tap in colony.
Build the bonus industry.

The mere second a shipment for the Infrastructure gets disrupted (and they do A LOT), you are at 5 out of 4 industries, suffer -5 to stability for that, and colony goes on a downward spiral.

I suggest to make it either ignore Infrastructure issues, or consume local transplutonics, or even lower the upkeep cost, or even remove the upkep because it already took a lot of effort to get it up and running, otherwise it's a massive pain in the ass and you are better off never using it.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Comrade_Bobinski on May 15, 2024, 05:51:10 AM
Too add some more to the hypershunt problem, I recentrly found that the 10LY from colony requirement is not including 10LY, so it's more of a "improve colony in a 9.9LY radius". I was truly disapointed to go to the hassle of activate the hypershunt (I usually never bother, but this time I had a colony at 10LY range) and realising it did not offer me the choice of building a new industry.

If it is a bug I would like to know.

Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Pizzarugi on May 15, 2024, 06:02:31 AM
The thing I hate the most about the hypershunt tap is the fact the resource shipment locations are entirely random. If I remember a post from Alex somewhere, even if you produce all of your resources in your colonies, you can still get shipments from other factions. That means even if you went through the effort of making your colony with the hypershunt tap also have a refinery pumping out 10 transplutonics, you still run the risk of having disruptions, because a pirate killed a mercantile fleet from another faction.

That alone has made me give up the idea of ever using the item, much less bothering to interact with the hypershunts themselves outside of killing [super redacted] for their weapons. I'm not gonna take the risk of my colony suffering major stability loss, because it can't even sustain itself using resources produced on the same planet that needs them.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef on May 15, 2024, 03:27:52 PM
The thing I hate the most about the hypershunt tap is the fact the resource shipment locations are entirely random. If I remember a post from Alex somewhere, even if you produce all of your resources in your colonies, you can still get shipments from other factions. That means even if you went through the effort of making your colony with the hypershunt tap also have a refinery pumping out 10 transplutonics, you still run the risk of having disruptions, because a pirate killed a mercantile fleet from another faction.

That alone has made me give up the idea of ever using the item, much less bothering to interact with the hypershunts themselves outside of killing [super redacted] for their weapons. I'm not gonna take the risk of my colony suffering major stability loss, because it can't even sustain itself using resources produced on the same planet that needs them.
A Transplutonic ore deposit with mining + maxxed out refining, + Heavy Industry will never suffer disruptions.
HI provides the required heavy machinery to the other two industries (no improvements are required. Refining with an industry admin, on a max sized world, with improvements, a catalytic core, and alpha core will give you 10 Transplutonics and will overfeed HI. Mining improvements are dependent on the local ore quality.

Meaning Hypershunts are only really viable on low hazard worlds without an atmosphere. Even then Luddics can still sabotage any of the industries in the supply chain and "potentially" shut down the tap.
Having at least two 10 production Refining industries on two worlds helps to mitigate this issue, as even if the Luddics shut down the supply chain, you can still rely on in faction production.
It is unlikely that you'll suffer a supply disruption within the time your local supply chain is down.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 15, 2024, 07:20:34 PM
Yeah so the way it works now is "IF spherical horse in vacuum theory holds, you PROBABLY will not suffer disruptions!"

In reality though, this colony mody is near-permanent -5 staility debuff due to the demand not met 80% of the time.

Why bother with it? The extra industry that randomly screws up your colony is just not something you would expect to see from a cool endgame colony mod. It's a massive disappointment.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Beep Boop on May 16, 2024, 01:08:37 AM
The Hypershunt is another example of an item you can use for "Create Problem, Sell Solution". Find a nice habitable planet. Grow it to size 6, preferrably with a Cryofacility. Build a farm or light industry. Wait for the Church to covet the planet. Let them have the planet. Now THEY own a 10 Transplutonic, 10 Organic Demanding Money Pit. Your problem now, so long, suckas!

Having at least two 10 production Refining industries on two worlds helps to mitigate this issue, as even if the Luddics shut down the supply chain, you can still rely on in faction production.
It is unlikely that you'll suffer a supply disruption within the time your local supply chain is down.
Luddics will not shut down your industries if you have given them their shiny.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Megas on May 16, 2024, 06:36:47 AM
Because the tap adds +8 interest, whoever (size 4+) you sell it to gets a shiny new Pather cell to terrorize them.  I have considered selling it to a low stability world just so the Pather cell can destroy the world with terrorist attacks.  (Yes, I can raid it into the ground myself to decivilize it faster without the sat bomb.)

P.S.  Come to think of it, do they install the tap if not in range?  That idea would not work in that case (no shunt close enough to core), and in case of Ludd takeover, I guess they do not get cells because they are Ludds.

P.P.S.  Hypershunt Tap, and maybe Orbital Fusion Lamp too, should be more useful for its intended purpose and not for ruining enemies by creating a money pit and/or permanent destabilization.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 16, 2024, 07:14:11 AM
The thing I hate the most about the hypershunt tap is the fact the resource shipment locations are entirely random. If I remember a post from Alex somewhere, even if you produce all of your resources in your colonies, you can still get shipments from other factions. That means even if you went through the effort of making your colony with the hypershunt tap also have a refinery pumping out 10 transplutonics, you still run the risk of having disruptions, because a pirate killed a mercantile fleet from another faction.

That alone has made me give up the idea of ever using the item, much less bothering to interact with the hypershunts themselves outside of killing [super redacted] for their weapons. I'm not gonna take the risk of my colony suffering major stability loss, because it can't even sustain itself using resources produced on the same planet that needs them.

Yeah this one was a headscratcher, because the colony I hypershunted actually had refinery and was producing transplutonics itself lol
I was thinking "HEY this planet can probably support it, yeah?" *** no lol

If planets prioritized their local resources first that probably wouldnt be a problem
But now, sorry bro, your transplutonic shipment from the other ass corner of the galaxy got lost, enjo your -5 stability :)
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: SCC on May 16, 2024, 10:27:17 AM
I haven't used hypershunt tap once yet. It doesn't offer much of an upside, you have to jump through a hoop to get it (the 10 ly range) and it seems using it can randomly punish you massively for something outside of your control.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Zsar on May 16, 2024, 10:35:02 AM
The whole idea is questionable, considering that most sectors I have rolled so far have not had sensible systems in range of a Hypershunt.

Meanwhile according to the lore, these two Hypershunts somehow transmitted their power through the whole sector to power the gate network (and even one gate, similarly, is not at all guaranteed to spawn within range of a Hypershunt, to maybe work as the gate-way to the rest of the network).

... This makes me hope that the things are just placeholders and will eventually be reworked somewhat extensively. (If not outright dropped in favour of a shiny, new, fully functional gate network.)
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 16, 2024, 10:11:26 PM
I haven't used hypershunt tap once yet. It doesn't offer much of an upside, you have to jump through a hoop to get it (the 10 ly range) and it seems using it can randomly punish you massively for something outside of your control.

Yes exactly the way its implemented now. Was very unrewarding and disappointing after hauling all the crap to get it to work.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: BigBrainEnergy on May 17, 2024, 02:44:59 AM
Yeah so the way it works now is "IF spherical horse in vacuum theory holds, you PROBABLY will not suffer disruptions!"

That's only if the transplutonic production is on a different planet. If you put the hypershunt tap on a no atmosphere planet with transplutonics, then it can meet the demand domestically. That does narrow down the planets it's useful on, but for those planets it is actually useful.

If planets prioritized their local resources first that probably wouldnt be a problem
But now, sorry bro, your transplutonic shipment from the other ass corner of the galaxy got lost, enjo your -5 stability :)

If it's taking shipments from a different planet, that's NOT random. That only happens if the local output is too low to meet the demand.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 17, 2024, 05:38:09 AM
Yeah so the way it works now is "IF spherical horse in vacuum theory holds, you PROBABLY will not suffer disruptions!"

That's only if the transplutonic production is on a different planet. If you put the hypershunt tap on a no atmosphere planet with transplutonics, then it can meet the demand domestically. That does narrow down the planets it's useful on, but for those planets it is actually useful.

If planets prioritized their local resources first that probably wouldnt be a problem
But now, sorry bro, your transplutonic shipment from the other ass corner of the galaxy got lost, enjo your -5 stability :)

If it's taking shipments from a different planet, that's NOT random. That only happens if the local output is too low to meet the demand.

How does that makes sense? Not a single planet can jamp 10 volatiles or trans.
Show me a planet jamming out 10 transplutonics?
Not to mention, we basically consume in entirety the output of 2 industries... to buuild one more industry?
This mod is trash, sorry. Needs rework.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: BigBrainEnergy on May 17, 2024, 01:39:45 PM
How does that makes sense? Not a single planet can jamp 10 volatiles or trans.
Show me a planet jamming out 10 transplutonics?
Not to mention, we basically consume in entirety the output of 2 industries... to buuild one more industry?
This mod is trash, sorry. Needs rework.

It is extremely niche and not worth the effort, which is a bit disappointing, but I do want to clear up a couple things.

I don't think the game does a good job explaining how industries work, which is evidenced by how many people don't know how it works despite being pretty simple. It does not "consume" the output of an industry. You don't add and subtract inputs and outputs of industries. Every unit higher is meant to represent 10x the production in universe. This means you can't add two planets with 5 units together to meet the demand here, but it also means that if you do meet the demand you don't "lose" any output from installing it. That 10 output planet can still supply all your little requirements for other planets because those numbers are trivial in comparison.

Speaking of which, I think the maximum output you can reach is exactly 10. A size 6 colony produces 4 transplutonics. Any planet with no atmosphere can use a catalytic core to boost output by 3. Add 1 each for admin, alpha core, and spending story points to "improve" the industry. It's still way too much effort for one extra industry, but you never have to worry about a stability penalty.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 17, 2024, 10:12:22 PM
How does that makes sense? Not a single planet can jamp 10 volatiles or trans.
Show me a planet jamming out 10 transplutonics?
Not to mention, we basically consume in entirety the output of 2 industries... to buuild one more industry?
This mod is trash, sorry. Needs rework.

It is extremely niche and not worth the effort, which is a bit disappointing, but I do want to clear up a couple things.

I don't think the game does a good job explaining how industries work, which is evidenced by how many people don't know how it works despite being pretty simple. It does not "consume" the output of an industry. You don't add and subtract inputs and outputs of industries. Every unit higher is meant to represent 10x the production in universe. This means you can't add two planets with 5 units together to meet the demand here, but it also means that if you do meet the demand you don't "lose" any output from installing it. That 10 output planet can still supply all your little requirements for other planets because those numbers are trivial in comparison.

Speaking of which, I think the maximum output you can reach is exactly 10. A size 6 colony produces 4 transplutonics. Any planet with no atmosphere can use a catalytic core to boost output by 3. Add 1 each for admin, alpha core, and spending story points to "improve" the industry. It's still way too much effort for one extra industry, but you never have to worry about a stability penalty.

Thank you for explaining! Now I understand how it works, and yes, looks like 10 output i theoretically possible.
Which brings us back to original - why would you completely suck dry one industry to build another one? Makes zero sense.

Both Hypershunt AND Fusion lamp suffer from extremely high upkeep of 10, which makes these colony mods useless.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: SCC on May 18, 2024, 12:15:41 AM
You still get increased profits from exporting 10 units of transplutonics.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 18, 2024, 05:40:14 PM
You still get increased profits from exporting 10 units of transplutonics.

I'd rather export those to my space forges tbh.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Phenir on May 18, 2024, 07:46:31 PM
That's the thing, though. Once you get to 10 transplutonics, you get the profit from them, your forges are happy, and so is your tap, all at once. You don't "pay" 10 transplutonics.
Funnily, the lamp is probably most useful on the colony fueling itself as ice giants tend to be the ones with plentiful volatiles and the lamp will usually cut off 100% hazard. On a planet where most of the hazard is from those two conditions, it ends up fairly low hazard. Might even end up 100% hazard.
Speaking of which, I think the maximum output you can reach is exactly 10. A size 6 colony produces 4 transplutonics. Any planet with no atmosphere can use a catalytic core to boost output by 3. Add 1 each for admin, alpha core, and spending story points to "improve" the industry. It's still way too much effort for one extra industry, but you never have to worry about a stability penalty.
You can use a gamma core to reduce the requirement to 9 as well.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 18, 2024, 10:52:53 PM
That's the thing, though. Once you get to 10 transplutonics, you get the profit from them, your forges are happy, and so is your tap, all at once. You don't "pay" 10 transplutonics.
Funnily, the lamp is probably most useful on the colony fueling itself as ice giants tend to be the ones with plentiful volatiles and the lamp will usually cut off 100% hazard. On a planet where most of the hazard is from those two conditions, it ends up fairly low hazard. Might even end up 100% hazard.
Speaking of which, I think the maximum output you can reach is exactly 10. A size 6 colony produces 4 transplutonics. Any planet with no atmosphere can use a catalytic core to boost output by 3. Add 1 each for admin, alpha core, and spending story points to "improve" the industry. It's still way too much effort for one extra industry, but you never have to worry about a stability penalty.
You can use a gamma core to reduce the requirement to 9 as well.

So what's the consensus?
Is the Fusion flashlight worth using or not?
Even with almost permanent lack of volatile supply?
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Amoebka on May 18, 2024, 11:52:48 PM
Lamp is good because it still provides a (smaller) free upside even if not fully supplied.

Tap is awful unless you stack the entire production chain on one size 6 planet, because disruptions are too common.

Cryosleeper is awful because the halved bonus isn't worth the upkeep, and disruptions are too common.

Disruptions happening magically with no way to prevent them is a lame and stupid game mechanic in general.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Killer of Fate on May 19, 2024, 02:31:14 AM
Lamp is good because it still provides a (smaller) free upside even if not fully supplied.

Tap is awful unless you stack the entire production chain on one size 6 planet, because disruptions are too common.

Cryosleeper is awful because the halved bonus isn't worth the upkeep, and disruptions are too common.

Disruptions happening magically with no way to prevent them is a lame and stupid game mechanic in general.
Cryosleeper is ridiculously powerful, because all you have to do is to keep a trade route with a Hegemony world and a Gamma core, I don't know what happened, but toxic worlds are no longer necessary to run it. You can just get it to run the normal way.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Amoebka on May 19, 2024, 03:31:56 AM
And then Hegemony goes to war with someone, Jangala's accessibility drops below 90% as a result, and your cryorevival has a global shortage for the next 1.5 years.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Killer of Fate on May 19, 2024, 03:49:22 AM
And then Hegemony goes to war with someone, Jangala's accessibility drops below 90% as a result, and your cryorevival has a global shortage for the next 1.5 years.
1.5 years? Well, there is Gilead then.

In my experience hostilities last like a month.
Plus, look... I think something has been done to organic making, because this doesn't feel normal.

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/I8F4s4Y.png)
[close]

[ignore the low income, I did some settings.json changes]
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Phenir on May 19, 2024, 06:30:31 PM
Plus, look... I think something has been done to organic making, because this doesn't feel normal.

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/I8F4s4Y.png)
[close]

[ignore the low income, I did some settings.json changes]
Organics are 1:1 with colony size, +1 from admin, +2 from condition. That's 9. Nothing mysterious here. Rare ores and volatiles are the ones that produce less than colony size.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: SCC on May 19, 2024, 10:03:47 PM
I'd rather export those to my space forges tbh.
But you do. There is no internal trade. You can only export to the global market and you can only import from the global market.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 20, 2024, 07:10:50 AM
I'd rather export those to my space forges tbh.
But you do. There is no internal trade. You can only export to the global market and you can only import from the global market.

Okay so then the global market is impotent to supply 10 transplutonics?
Just my planets alone jam about 5 refineries

Same problem Fusion Lamp -- always not enough volatiles, even though just me alone got 4 gas giants farming it.

Same problem Cryo Revival - insane demand is never met. I settle new system I build those on every planet.

These resource demands need to be looked at :((
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Killer of Fate on May 20, 2024, 07:26:44 AM
Plus, look... I think something has been done to organic making, because this doesn't feel normal.

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/I8F4s4Y.png)
[close]

[ignore the low income, I did some settings.json changes]
Organics are 1:1 with colony size, +1 from admin, +2 from condition. That's 9. Nothing mysterious here. Rare ores and volatiles are the ones that produce less than colony size.
So, toxic planets are useless. Noted. Time to go back in time and punch that guy in the face who told me otherwise... Just kidding...
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: SCC on May 20, 2024, 09:22:44 AM
Okay so then the global market is impotent to supply 10 transplutonics?
Just my planets alone jam about 5 refineries
Yes. It is indeed impossible for the global market to find a 10 supply transplutonic exporter, if there is no such a exporter.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Aeson on May 20, 2024, 12:27:01 PM
Every unit higher is meant to represent 10x the production in universe.
The game's actually a bit mixed on that front; order-of-magnitude production numbers make sense when trying to justify why two worlds that each produce 5 of a given thing are unable to supply a single world that requires six of that thing but are difficult to reconcile with market share being more or less [local production] / [sector production], especially in markets where something like a quantity-vs-quality tradeoff is unlikely (my size-3 Ore outpost probably isn't producing such pure ore that it's selling for enough to outweigh a several-orders-of-magnitude difference in production volume, for instance).

So, toxic planets are useless.
I wouldn't say that; Toxic worlds are one of the few non-Habitable types that can have Organics, +50 Hazard Rating for Toxic Atmosphere isn't actually that bad unless it's stacking with a couple other bad modifiers, and you don't need to use colony items to make a colony profitable. Furthermore, even considering colony items, Toxic worlds aren't especially bad - with how picky Soil Nanites are, three industries compatible with colony items is usually about as good as you can expect for anything that isn't an airless rock, and there's also a decent argument for only putting a single item on each colony since Luddic Path cells are annoying and a couple developed colonies give you more money than you'll actually need anyways.

The problem with Toxic worlds as colonization candidates isn't that they're "useless" but rather that they rarely have resource deposits particularly worth exploiting and (unlike gas giants, habitables, and airless rocks) aren't uniquely suited to any of the current colony items, so they usually just aren't that attractive as colonization candidates unless you have an Autonomous Mantle Bore and they have all three of Ore, Organics, and Rare Ore.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: robepriority on May 20, 2024, 01:31:40 PM
The biggest issue is that getting the logistics for a hypershunt basically guarantees you don't need one.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Beep Boop on May 20, 2024, 05:15:32 PM
Plus, look... I think something has been done to organic making, because this doesn't feel normal.

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/I8F4s4Y.png)
[close]

[ignore the low income, I did some settings.json changes]
Organics are 1:1 with colony size, +1 from admin, +2 from condition. That's 9. Nothing mysterious here. Rare ores and volatiles are the ones that produce less than colony size.
So, toxic planets are useless. Noted. Time to go back in time and punch that guy in the face who told me otherwise... Just kidding...
Two things you're forgetting. First, toxic planets can give you all 3 mineables out of a single mine. Second, you can put a metal bore on a toxic, unlike a habitable planet. Third, if you're already size 6, you obviously don't need a cryorevival facility anymore anyway, so you need to be able to hit 9/10 production WITHOUT +6 size.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 20, 2024, 05:32:29 PM
The biggest issue is that getting the logistics for a hypershunt basically guarantees you don't need one.

That too :) Felt underwhelming and excessive.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Phenir on May 20, 2024, 06:51:53 PM
Third, if you're already size 6, you obviously don't need a cryorevival facility anymore anyway, so you need to be able to hit 9/10 production WITHOUT +6 size.
You can have more than one colony. Those other colonies will surely appreciate their size 6 big brother supplying the organics needed for cryo revival.
Also, with full investment you can get full cryo bonus at size 4. 4 base + 1 admin + 1 alpha + 1 improvement + 2 condition for 9 supply. Subtract 1 from requirement by using a gamma core.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Aeson on May 20, 2024, 06:59:08 PM
First, toxic planets can give you all 3 mineables out of a single mine.
Toxic planets can actually give you all four minable resources, though this is in my experience rare and normally won't give you enough volatiles to meet the needs of Fuel Production in-faction. Additionally, my experience is that resource deposits on Toxic worlds tend to be relatively poor and thus make for fairly unattractive as mining candidates until you actually have an Autonomous Mantle Bore.

Third, if you're already size 6, you obviously don't need a cryorevival facility anymore anyway, so you need to be able to hit 9/10 production WITHOUT +6 size.
Because clearly nobody has ever settled two or more colonies and had them grow at sufficiently dissimilar rates for some to still be growing by the time the first reach size-6, never settled an Nth colony after developing a core set of worlds, or anything else like that which could make hitting 9 or 10 Organics production at size-6 useful for running a Cryorevival Facility despite the lack of benefit to the producing planet?
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Killer of Fate on May 21, 2024, 12:28:54 AM
Plus, look... I think something has been done to organic making, because this doesn't feel normal.

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/I8F4s4Y.png)
[close]

[ignore the low income, I did some settings.json changes]
Organics are 1:1 with colony size, +1 from admin, +2 from condition. That's 9. Nothing mysterious here. Rare ores and volatiles are the ones that produce less than colony size.
So, toxic planets are useless. Noted. Time to go back in time and punch that guy in the face who told me otherwise... Just kidding...
Two things you're forgetting. First, toxic planets can give you all 3 mineables out of a single mine. Second, you can put a metal bore on a toxic, unlike a habitable planet. Third, if you're already size 6, you obviously don't need a cryorevival facility anymore anyway, so you need to be able to hit 9/10 production WITHOUT +6 size.
oooooooooooh, big deal... Why would I expose myself to 250% hazard rating when I can just colonise a single habitable planet with 75-125% and a vacuum one with 100-150% using two Alpha Cores. This feels like seeking for sunlight inside a black hole. You ain't finding any.

plus organics on a toxic world are ridiculously rare... And having organics occur on a planet that additionally isn't a nightmare is... Well, slightly more rare.

imo: toxic worlds should be habitable. From what I read there is a breathable atmosphere above the clouds, cause the pressure is high enough to have a neat little 1 bar with cozy 50 degrees Celsius (nice!) and a proper balance of O2, N2, CO2... So, you know... Cloud cities, man...
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Princess of Evil on May 21, 2024, 12:43:47 AM
The main problem of a hypershunt is that the easiest way to get +1 industry on a decent planet is to colonize one.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Megas on May 21, 2024, 02:14:23 AM
If someone has a spare Mantle Bore, it could be sold to Salamanca, a toxic world owned by the League to produce maybe enough (I think 9) Organics.

I wouldn't say that; Toxic worlds are one of the few non-Habitable types that can have Organics, +50 Hazard Rating for Toxic Atmosphere isn't actually that bad unless it's stacking with a couple other bad modifiers, and you don't need to use colony items to make a colony profitable. Furthermore, even considering colony items, Toxic worlds aren't especially bad - with how picky Soil Nanites are, three industries compatible with colony items is usually about as good as you can expect for anything that isn't an airless rock, and there's also a decent argument for only putting a single item on each colony since Luddic Path cells are annoying and a couple developed colonies give you more money than you'll actually need anyways.

The problem with Toxic worlds as colonization candidates isn't that they're "useless" but rather that they rarely have resource deposits particularly worth exploiting and (unlike gas giants, habitables, and airless rocks) aren't uniquely suited to any of the current colony items, so they usually just aren't that attractive as colonization candidates unless you have an Autonomous Mantle Bore and they have all three of Ore, Organics, and Rare Ore.
I had a toxic colony (with 175% hazard) in one game.  Its main draw was it was in a gate system with the sleeper ship and a five resource 125% habitable (with enough of everything after Mining improvement), and I needed somewhere to put Heavy Industry and another Military Base to defend against expedition spam (in an earlier release), which was the Toxic world.  It produced enough organics with Mantle Bore to feed Cryorevival, but I did not take advantage of that because of Pather cells (I needed Pristine Nanoforge on Heavy Industry more than Mantle Bore on Mining as my sole +4 item).  It was the first game where I had a sleeper ship inside a good system to colonize.

Because pristine nanoforge adds pollution to habitables, I look for 150% or 175% hazard worlds to put a heavy industry.  I look at Toxic, Irradiated, or other non-habitables for places to put heavy industry or fuel production.
 
For me, the most important factor for colonizing a system is the presence of a gate.  I have skipped systems with great planets but no gate in favor of a system with worse but good enough planets, a gate, and a good location.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Killer of Fate on May 21, 2024, 03:31:05 AM
a new system that allows way faster hyperspace travel was added, so Gates aren't as mandatory anymore I suppose.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Megas on May 21, 2024, 06:05:11 AM
Yes, the addition of Limbo treasures help.  As for wormholes, that depends.  I prefer to leave one of the wormholes in Limbo so I can go to the Abyss whenever I want to play around there instead of trying to slog through space to the abyss.  Would be nice if a third wormhole anchor was added so I can use two to travel between systems on the map and the third for off-the-map exploration.

I still want a gate in my system, but the gate hauler means I can keep one great system that does not have a gate.  I remember one game that had a 50% Terran and one or two other great planets in a system close enough to core, but it had no gates nearby, and there were no other good systems (with a gate), so I dumped the game and rejected that seed before restarting a new game with a different seed.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Killer of Fate on May 21, 2024, 08:18:33 AM
no, not the gate hauler. Who cares about that... I mean the *** Hyperspace Tiers... Where you get to walk up to a Black Hole and *** DIVE ten quadrillion miles.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Lawrence Master-blaster on May 21, 2024, 09:51:43 AM
The main problem of a hypershunt is that the easiest way to get +1 industry on a decent planet is to colonize one.

Seriously. Even if you go with the absolute minimum of 3 planets(Habitable, No Atmosphere/Extreme Heat, Giant) you still don't need more than 4 Industries per planet.

Both Hypershunt Taps and Cryosleepers are completely ignorable mechanics.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Killer of Fate on May 21, 2024, 10:25:19 AM
Cryosleeper is amazing, especially since you no longer get infinite Hegemony inspections, so you can have swarms of colonies dishing out loadsamoney... Though I guess it doesn't matter at some point, cuz it's not like you need them... Unless for like industrial output.

Hypershunt on the other hand is more of a pain in the ass than anything. It's mostly just an expensive item you can sell in the early game. Cause you ain't defeating Omega till you are fully setup. Unless you really really really know what you're doing...

I feel like the solution to this problem could be radical and very dumb.

A - make Hypershunt work globally. Would make it far more easy to utilise. Cryosleeper is fine the way it is... Cause unlike the Hypershunt, Cryosleeper isn't supposed to be Domain magic to such an extent. It's relatively grounded, so it makes sense for it to have range.

B - limit the amount of overall industries... But that would take a lot of work, cause there are some Core Worlds that fill that limit. Most of them don't however. So, it makes sense.
Currently you get like 1, 2, 3, 4... It could be like 1, 2, 2, 3 instead. I know this sounds really painful. But it would make colonies not act as Jack-of-all-trades the way they do now. The Domain lore is that everything is built to specialise, because the Domain enjoyed *** over their colonies to make it easier to control them. So, it would make sense that industries are traditionally organised in a global manner. High population Core World colonies like Chicomoztoc could retain 4 industries, for campaign's ease. But otherwise the player can only have 3 at max. With 4th one being possible only via Hypershunt. I know this feels like it would make the game significantly harder... But considering there is currently no indefinite punishment for using Alpha Cores as admins, and also you get to have 1 more human Admin, I don't think it would be a big deal.

This way you would have colonies going like... Mining->Refining->Heavy Industry... Rather than Mining->Refining->Heavy Industry->Military Base/Commerce (pretty much perfect). You always add Refining, because it's always profitable. You always add Commerce, unless you have bad stability, which meh... Rare. Basically, the 4th industry is just "oh, what do I put here now?".

Instead of having colonies that are specialised, like they are supposed to be in-lore. We have just... Generalist colonies. And honestly, it makes sense that they would specialised.

Earth is generalist in its industrial nature, because there are 8 billion people living on it rn... Maybe more at the moment... So, we have pretty much 4 industries. But imagine if only 5 million people lived on Earth... 5 million people sustaining a strong economy of the military-industrial complex? High tech manufacturing, farming and tourism & leisure? In what *** world?
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Phenir on May 21, 2024, 10:31:43 AM
How about not buffing so they are just a bonus if you happen to take advantage of them instead of something that you really want, forcing you to only colonize near them.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Killer of Fate on May 21, 2024, 11:14:29 AM
How about not buffing so they are just a bonus if you happen to take advantage of them instead of something that you really want, forcing you to only colonize near them.
that's a sandbox thing to do, tbh... But I would prefer if they had a reason to exist...
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 22, 2024, 03:56:22 AM
Would gladly trade the Tap for a steady respawn of doritos.
Or even endgame crisis Stellaris-style dorito invasion :)

But yeah, Tap is useless and a headache. Hope it gets some attention, along with other overpriced colony mods like Fusion Lamp.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Megas on May 22, 2024, 05:01:41 AM
no, not the gate hauler. Who cares about that... I mean the *** Hyperspace Tiers... Where you get to walk up to a Black Hole and *** DIVE ten quadrillion miles.
Generate Slipsurge.  Takes a while to build up enough topography to get that and Reverse Polarity.  Slipsurge has its uses, though no replacement for a gate.  If anything, it is more useful when combined with gates.  Jump about 10 to 15 light-years toward a system with a gate, then gate to wherever.  Or gate to a system with or near a big enough star or black hole and blast off toward wherever, even off the map for Abyss exploration.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Gris on May 22, 2024, 05:22:20 AM
Would gladly trade the Tap for a steady respawn of doritos.
Or even endgame crisis Stellaris-style dorito invasion :)

But yeah, Tap is useless and a headache. Hope it gets some attention, along with other overpriced colony mods like Fusion Lamp.

Good day Juno!  :)

Yeah Starsector Vanilla seems kinda boring when you reach the endgame with colonies since it doesn't even have an endgame yet.(I still really love the game its really hard to find a game like this with passion and care about the starsector community.)  :-\
I hope Alex, David and co. Addresses this.

We only got to see the Cruiser Version of a [SUPER ALABASTER].
I just hope to see the Capital Version of a [SUPER ALABASTER].
And a Station Version of a [SUPER ALABASTER].

Unless you mod it with endgame mods. (Thank you very much modders for making the game more enjoyable even the game is still in Alpha state)

Im so midly disappointed at the 0.97a update.
Its like you expect a chocolate cake with a full chocolate icing but instead you got a chocolate cake but with a lame *** full vanilla icing.
I was expecting the Abyss to have some new endgame enemies to fight and endgame loot or even better new respawnable endgame enemies to fight that is stronger than the [REDACTED] .

Instead we got a lame *** very barren placeholder abyss.
[Lets be honest guys we slightly feel sad about it]

I was expecting the [DOMAIN REDACTED] to be guarded by some [SUPER ALABASTER]
but instead we only got a lame *** [SOY REDACTED] that is guarding it.
That's a very important piece of history in front of your eyes.

If the next update is 0.98a is only QOL I would be so ******!
I wish for this game to have atleast some kind of endgame even the main storyline had not been continued!
It's like adding salt in the wound.

That is all and thank you!  :D
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 22, 2024, 09:49:18 PM
Good day!
Well, as I see the recent stuff geared towards endgame, including doritos, was added in the recent build, so the endgame polishing has already started, and I see many cool ideas flying here (e.g. return of the Domain to reclaim their colony slaves)
So I hope in the upcoming builds devs focus more and more on exciting sandboxing
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Phenir on May 23, 2024, 12:16:48 PM
Good day!
Well, as I see the recent stuff geared towards endgame, including doritos, was added in the recent build, so the endgame polishing has already started, and I see many cool ideas flying here (e.g. return of the Domain to reclaim their colony slaves)
So I hope in the upcoming builds devs focus more and more on exciting sandboxing
Doritos are not recent lol. They are a few years old now. Added in .95 I think which was released in 2021.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 23, 2024, 01:07:05 PM
Oh my bad. It was the new colony crisis events added this year.

Anyway, there is a lot of endgame space to improve on (pun intended).

1) Implement proper map painting / faction warfare /diplomacy.
- Proper assaults and takeovers on planets instead of just bombing them to resettle.
- Claims on sectors recognized between factions. Player faction recognized (settled entire system, game still doesn't feel like I have a claim on it, lol)
- Diplomacy between factions, more interactions with faction leaders, pacts of non-aggro, defensive, military alliances etc.

2) Implement endgame crises Stellaris-style.
- Global Remnant awakening. Interaction with the Remnants, farming rep, rewards, goals, etc.
- Return of the Domain. No brainer, all core gates activate and advanced Domain forces pouring in to reclaim the savages. Cannot use gates until crisis resolved.
- Return of Ludd. Escaped from Domain sentence during gate hack, spent eons in cryosleep, now back in action. Luddic church and path are ecstatic and unite in global crusade against infidels carelessly slapping AI cores in their colonies, namely you.
- Doritos invasion. Instead of useless Hypershunts they are actually high energy gates where Doritos start pouring in. Potential Remnant ally against all organic life.

3) Mentioned before, rework useless and random Tech Mining casino into actual tech recovery, study, and engineering facility with 3 upgrade levels.
- Research advanced weapons and ship hulls based on Ziggurat, Remnant, Dorito, and Domain tech, etc.
- Build gate ships to spam more gates, gates should have serious upkeep costs though

I can go on for hours, but you get the idea.
Stellaris and Endless Space are deflated balloons, and their teams struggle to implement anything fresh besides few text popups or a reskin, while this game has immense potential and I enjoy it a lot :)
But devs do need to pick a side - come out of the closet and join Steam or GOG (which is more in touch with the indie nature of the game), or both, its a serious market share since there are almost no good space games around, and good influx of cash for devs to keep doing what they love.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Gris on May 23, 2024, 04:38:15 PM
Oh my bad. It was the new colony crisis events added this year.

Anyway, there is a lot of endgame space to improve on (pun intended).

1) Implement proper map painting / faction warfare /diplomacy.
- Proper assaults and takeovers on planets instead of just bombing them to resettle.
- Claims on sectors recognized between factions. Player faction recognized (settled entire system, game still doesn't feel like I have a claim on it, lol)
- Diplomacy between factions, more interactions with faction leaders, pacts of non-aggro, defensive, military alliances etc.

2) Implement endgame crises Stellaris-style.
- Global Remnant awakening. Interaction with the Remnants, farming rep, rewards, goals, etc.
- Return of the Domain. No brainer, all core gates activate and advanced Domain forces pouring in to reclaim the savages. Cannot use gates until crisis resolved.
- Return of Ludd. Escaped from Domain sentence during gate hack, spent eons in cryosleep, now back in action. Luddic church and path are ecstatic and unite in global crusade against infidels carelessly slapping AI cores in their colonies, namely you.
- Doritos invasion. Instead of useless Hypershunts they are actually high energy gates where Doritos start pouring in. Potential Remnant ally against all organic life.

3) Mentioned before, rework useless and random Tech Mining casino into actual tech recovery, study, and engineering facility with 3 upgrade levels.
- Research advanced weapons and ship hulls based on Ziggurat, Remnant, Dorito, and Domain tech, etc.
- Build gate ships to spam more gates, gates should have serious upkeep costs though

I can go on for hours, but you get the idea.
Stellaris and Endless Space are deflated balloons, and their teams struggle to implement anything fresh besides few text popups or a reskin, while this game has immense potential and I enjoy it a lot :)
But devs do need to pick a side - come out of the closet and join Steam or GOG (which is more in touch with the indie nature of the game), or both, its a serious market share since there are almost no good space games around, and good influx of cash for devs to keep doing what they love.

Okay thank you for the reply!  :D
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Antelope Syrup on May 24, 2024, 09:33:25 AM
The way I see it, Hypershunts are too expensive while also not giving a very good bonus. Shipping 20 something thousand metals out to the middle of nowhere, and then managing that 10 volatiles demand, then dealing with the considerable stability consequences of random shipping disruption, its just too much for only one extra industry slot on a colony. An extra slot by itself is nice, but 4 is pretty much always enough for an individual colony. I have a feeling that the Hypershunts may play a more significant role later on, considering Baird's plan, and will probably be required to fully activate the gate system. However, as they are now, Hypershunts need a more significant pay off. I propose a stability bonus to the colony it's attached to, as well as raising the output of every industry on the planet by 1, alongside the extra industry slot. Hypershunts powered the domain by harnessing the power of entire stars, they should be at least considerably raising a planets industrial capabilities.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: SCC on May 24, 2024, 12:09:54 PM
make Starsector a 4X
This game was inspired by Star Control 2, mostly. It's not going to be a game about painting the map, it's going to be about saving the world (or sector, as it were). I am too lazy to go search for exact Alex quote, but he said something like "it's nice that Nexerelin exists as a mod, but this is not the vision I have for the game".
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: landryraccoon on May 24, 2024, 04:40:11 PM
I'm coming late to the thread, but here's my suggestion.

Remove the upkeep from the hypershunt tap. Yes, you heard me. It should just be good.

When you find a pristine nanoforge, you're just happy. It's just a good item, you found one, so you're glad. Why can't the hypershunt tap feel like that?

You have to have a colony within 10 light years of a hypershunt and beat the entire game to make use of it. Why can't it just be a reward?

Like, just let the player be happy. They won the game. They get an extra industry. No drawback, no gotcha, it's not a bunch of grinding. It's a good job, you get a prize.

Edit: Maybe after you install it, the Pathers send the Grandmother of All Armadas to take you out. That would be an even bigger prize! You get to have an awesome fight, in addition to having an awesome colony, instead of a bunch of grinding with a mediocre payout. After beating Tesseracts, the Pather fight would probably feel cathartic, an appropriate denouement like Merry and Pipin coming back from defeating Sauron to clean up the scourging of the Shire.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: intrinsic_parity on May 26, 2024, 10:50:09 AM
I have feeling that the hyper shunts will have other uses in late game that relate to mechanics or story events that don't exist yet
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Killer of Fate on May 26, 2024, 11:28:32 AM
I have feeling that the hyper shunts will have other uses in late game that relate to mechanics or story events that don't exist yet
Baird literally says that we're going to need the Hypershunt to continue the experiment. So maybe Hypershunt tap will instead be like a gate trigger for accessibility...
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Juno on May 26, 2024, 09:09:39 PM
I'm coming late to the thread, but here's my suggestion.

Remove the upkeep from the hypershunt tap. Yes, you heard me. It should just be good.

When you find a pristine nanoforge, you're just happy. It's just a good item, you found one, so you're glad. Why can't the hypershunt tap feel like that?

You have to have a colony within 10 light years of a hypershunt and beat the entire game to make use of it. Why can't it just be a reward?

Like, just let the player be happy. They won the game. They get an extra industry. No drawback, no gotcha, it's not a bunch of grinding. It's a good job, you get a prize.

Edit: Maybe after you install it, the Pathers send the Grandmother of All Armadas to take you out. That would be an even bigger prize! You get to have an awesome fight, in addition to having an awesome colony, instead of a bunch of grinding with a mediocre payout. After beating Tesseracts, the Pather fight would probably feel cathartic, an appropriate denouement like Merry and Pipin coming back from defeating Sauron to clean up the scourging of the Shire.

Totally agree.
Both Hypershunt and Fusion Lamp don't need the massive demand cost attached to them bringing in more headache than joy for finding a rare colony mod.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Gris on May 28, 2024, 05:01:33 AM
Good day!
Well, as I see the recent stuff geared towards endgame, including doritos, was added in the recent build, so the endgame polishing has already started, and I see many cool ideas flying here (e.g. return of the Domain to reclaim their colony slaves)
So I hope in the upcoming builds devs focus more and more on exciting sandboxing
Doritos are not recent lol. They are a few years old now. Added in .95 I think which was released in 2021.

If this is true (Since im slightly still new to the Starsector Fractal Softworks Forum Community).
That is rather kinda sad and i really feel bad for the veteran members of the community since they must have waited for the endgame and the conclusion of the main storyline.  :'(

I really wonder how will Alex surprise us in the next or future updates?  :-\
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: FooF on May 28, 2024, 08:44:52 AM
I’m 100% convinced the current hypershunt bonus is a placeholder. If I had to guess, once the story advances beyond current, hypershunts will be necessary to reach Gates beyond the Persean Sector. That might mean you venturing out, but more than likely, it means all sorts of things entering in through the Gate network. (Purely from a time/effort standpoint, I don’t foresee the player ever leaving the Sector except for potentially one-off scripted missions. The same logic applies for causing baddies to swarm in: less assets required!)

It’s possible Hypershunt Taps still provide some kind of colony bonus but I believe the main intent will be to advance the story.
Title: Re: Hypershunt tap problem
Post by: Killer of Fate on May 28, 2024, 10:57:50 AM
it would make sense considering Omega is an end-game boss. Kinda like Pontiff is in Dark Souls 3, that their role would be to open up later phases of the game and inform the player that this is where the real *** begins.