Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cryovolcanic on April 06, 2024, 10:03:40 AM
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I haven't seen a discussion on frigates (other than the Tempest thread https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=29315.0) in a while and want to get some conversation going! Some questions that are on my mind:
- What are your favorite frigate fits in 0.97a? Have they changed since 0.96 or 0.95 and why?
- What jobs do frigates perform in your fleet?
- Do you like Glimmer/Lumen still, now that the tradeoff is giving up Cyber Aug? How do you fit them, and in what kind of fleet composition do you use them? What kind of AI core? Is AI core+Remnant frigate better than human frigate+mercenary officer? Why or why not?
- How are you fitting Monitors now that SO was removed? Do you prefer an Escort Package destroyer (eg Medusa) for the same role?
- Anyone here like TT Brawler? When do you use it over LP Brawler?
- Omen/Afflictor - I assume people still like these? They offer something special that can't be overtaken by Escort Package destroyers.
- Are there any other under-the-radar, sleeper frigates or builds that people should know about, but don't?
- Anything else you want to share or ask about regarding frigates!
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I haven't seen a discussion on frigates (other than the Tempest thread https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=29315.0) in a while and want to get some conversation going! Some questions that are on my mind:
- What are your favorite frigate fits in 0.97a? Have they changed since 0.96 or 0.95 and why?
- What jobs do frigates perform in your fleet?
- Do you like Glimmer/Lumen still, now that the tradeoff is giving up Cyber Aug? How do you fit them, and in what kind of fleet composition do you use them? What kind of AI core? Is AI core+Remnant frigate better than human frigate+mercenary officer? Why or why not?
- How are you fitting Monitors now that SO was removed? Do you prefer an Escort Package destroyer (eg Medusa) for the same role?
- Anyone here like TT Brawler? When do you use it over LP Brawler?
- Omen/Afflictor - I assume people still like these? They offer something special that can't be overtaken by Escort Package destroyers.
- Are there any other under-the-radar, sleeper frigates or builds that people should know about, but don't?
- Anything else you want to share or ask about regarding frigates!
SO Hyperion, always will be. I shouldn't have to explain why.
Filler combat ships that can fill the battle line, hunt down frigates and other destroyers, while being sturdy or fast enough to distract cruisers. Beyond that, escort, although I usually leave that to destroyers
I don't use Glimmers or Lumens. If I go automated ships I'm probably going with Novas. If not, then it will be some Brilliants plus Scintillas. The reason for this is due to their fearless AI, it's easy to manage a couple Novas or a few Brilliants. It is very hard to manage Glimmer or Lumen spam.
I don't use the Monitor, never have, I don't like the ship. For PD escorting I use Shrikes that are covered in Burst PD, and have converted fighter bay with Wasps.
TT Brawler is my standard combat filler. Works wonderfully with Support Doctrine.
The Build is 15 caps, 12 Vents.
Built in (s-modded) Hullmods are Insulated Engine Assembly, Advanced Optics, Flux Coil Adjunct, and Hardened Shields. Other Hullmods are Stabilized Shields and Integrated Targeting Unit. Weapons are two Salamanders, and two Phase Lances.
It can solo most destroyers in the game if given long enough, and when it's three or more brawlers vs any cruiser, the brawlers will win. Otherwise, they can distract most cruisers indefinitely.
I use Omens with officers, they're inefficient to use with Support Doctrine. Skills + Hullmods are all built around reducing incoming damage as much as possible.
Skills are: Elite System Expertise and Target Analysis, Helmsmanship, Field Modulation, Combat Endurance, and Gunnery Implants. I recommend swapping GI for anything else.
Hullmods are: Built in Hardened Subsystems and Frontal Shields and Stabilized shields, Hardened shields, and Expanded Mags.
Weapons are a Salamander and Antimatter Blaster.
15 Caps, 5 Vents.
I don't use the Afflictor.
As for frigate builds that no one tries, a Player piloted SO Vigilance with reapers is surprisingly effective.
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For me the go-to frigate is the Wolf. My standard build is Ion Pulser or Phase Lance, 2 missiles (just about everything works), 2 PD lasers. For hullmods: Hardened Subsystems, Unstable Injector and a third one depending on the situation I use them for (usually Solar Shield, Extended Shield, or Expanded Missiles. The rest of the OP goes to up to 10 vents, that leaves usually somewhere between 2-7 for capacitors. If I have a lot of Wolves I have a few with Ion Beams as well, omitting the UI from the build.
They are rather cheap, easy to get from just about every market and you can refit them easily for multiple tasks. Pretty far from any meta build, but I very much like their design.
For the rest, I use officered Omens as well, with System Expertise being key. Otherwise I just slap on an Antimatter Blaster, Hardened Subsystems, UI and whatever missile I fancy. A few of them are great at PD duty.
I also use the occasional TT brawler, usually with a Phase Lance and Ion Pulser. Decent for escorting cruisers, a good deterrent for flanking.
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1. I recently fell in love (again) with the TT Brawlers. Really neat little frigates ;
2. Killing other frigates and capturing objectives, at least in the lategame ;
3. I don't use Lumens but I recently started using Glimmers with Alpha Cores. Because of their Reckless AI, I give them only beam weapons (graviton and taclaser etc). With High Energy Focus they are surprisingly good against human fleets at killing other frigates and they are good support/distraction against Remnants. With 1000+ range on all their weapons, the AI tend to not get into a knife fight and die right away. I like them a lot ;
4. With Best of the Best and Flux Regulation, I give them S-modded Hardened Shield, Flux Distributor and Hardened Subsystem. Then I go with Front Shield Conversion and Unstable Engine. Weapons are 2 LMGs. 15 vents / 1 cap. I like to put officers on them with with Elite Field Modulation and Elite Point Defense (if I have access to at least 2 elite skills). They are still insanely resilient, just not downright immortal anymore ;
5. TT Brawlers are excellent. Far more survivable than LP Brawlers thanks to their Plasma Jet system. 2 Phase Lances used to be my go-to build for them and now that Phase Lances flux efficiency has been massively improved, they are even better ;
6. The Omen is still the best frigate in the whole game (it really deserves to have its DP increased to "8"). Afflictor is still an S-tiers frigate in the hands of the player (I prefer the Afflictor P for AI and it's also S-tiers) ;
7. Vanguards. Vanguards are good. Really. I like to put max dual LMGs on them with Elite Point Defense and then 3 linked Swarmers. They are very, very impressive against other frigates. And in the early game, they are also really good against destroyers and some early cruisers because of all the missiles they can pack ;
8. I hate the Hyperion with a deep passion. It is a beast with Omega weapons, don't get me wrong, but it requires too many things to work properly unless you put Safety Override on it (and I dislike SO).
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I run a 'Fleet Size by DP' mod so I love having a metric ton of Lashers for my low-tech builds. A mix of autocannons+assault gun+reapers and they become a swarm of cheap death.
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I'm a big fan of LP Brawlers. When officered and fully s-modded, they turn into a death ball rather well.
Omens are the best frigate in the game behind only Glimmers, imo.
You cannot convince me that a Hyperion is frigate. It's absolutely a destroyer. I don't like using them though. It's way too strong of a ship for it's class.
I tried to like pure low tech frigates but I couldn't find any I could make work in the end game. They certainly need officers or Support Doctrine and some s-mod investment or they're just abysmal.
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I generally like using Wolfs outfitted with beam weapons + advanced optics for their skirmishing capability and are usually in every fleet that I end up making.
Other jobs really depends on the fleet I'm making but in general it's never dps unless I'm running wolfpack tactics.
Monitors, I outfit with hardened and stabilized shields with front shield conversion and then whatever flux efficient weapons I have on hand.
The few times I've used TT Brawler, it was uncommon for them to die while being piloted by aggressive officers.
Omens are great.
I am looking to experiment with Gremlins if anyone has any build suggestions.
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Centurions are my ol reliable; cheap, tanky, good firepower. 3 LAC + 1 ion + Burst PD + Swarmer. Good kinetic pressure, emp stops hounds on its track, swarmer strips frigate armor. Kinda falters vs remnants, but solid vs humans. Replaced with monitors when farming ordos. I've seen people putting AMB + LAC to great effect vs remnants, but I've never tried it myself.
I've never used SO monitors. I just build max vent, flux dist, stab shield, front shield, max cap. I usually switch from my flagship to monitor, move in front of my battleship, switch to my battleship, vent, switch to my flagship again. Especially good with Paragon and Exec because their HP is mostly shield.
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Omens and afflictors are indeed, still great.
Monitors are still good even without SO, the difference is now they really need an officer for elite field modulation while SO builds could get by without one. They're also a lot slower without it. Now you're going to grab unstable injectors and helmsmanship to try and make up for that. They can no longer diver into the face of a radiant in the heart of the remnant fleet and just chill, but they still work as a fantastic support/distraction with the escort command and reckless personality.
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Centurions are my ol reliable; cheap, tanky, good firepower. 3 LAC + 1 ion + Burst PD + Swarmer. Good kinetic pressure, emp stops hounds on its track, swarmer strips frigate armor. Kinda falters vs remnants, but solid vs humans. Replaced with monitors when farming ordos. I've seen people putting AMB + LAC to great effect vs remnants, but I've never tried it myself.
Pretty much this with a different loadout. 2x LAC, 1 LAG, Ion, pair of Vulcans in the back and Breaches. Sometimes I'll throw Railguns on there if I have extra. I love Tempests, Omens, Scarabs, etc. but Centurions are cheaper and can take an enormous amount of damage for 4 DP. The only knock against them is they're not great at capping points early but as escorts and "filler", I think they're on-point. It also doesn't hurt that they're easy to repair/replace.
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TT brawlers with dual Ion pulsers have been my favorite frigate for a fair while now, with the 0.97 Smod changes its just reinforced it even more. ;D At 5 points each i can have a group of them without officers for me to take control of and EMP out capital ships from the flank.
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I don't think they are 'meta', but I've been enjoying using regular brawlers with a heavy autocannon and heavy mortar as escorts in the destroyer phase of the game, though they wouldn't be as good late game in that role as they can't take escort package. Very tough, decent range, decent firepower, their rears are protected by being near another ships, and the burn 9 doesn't matter anymore. I like the kinetics a lot better than energies in general (as long as I avoid the traps that are HVDs and Heavy Maulers), though I might try the TT variant for phase lances (maybe with advanced optics too? Hmmm).
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I asked about TT Brawlers specifically because I have used the ship some and quite like it, and was surprised that people don't talk about it more often. Seems like others are using it also but it's just flying under the radar.
Maybe the base Brawler is just a solid design--2 M slots on a frigate with reasonable shield, speed, ordnance and good flux--so all of them are good. LP Brawler just gets most of the attention.
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Lp brawlers mixed with antimatter omens + something bigger to fill up your dp cap.
Omens are for pd and blowing up stuff with shield down and brawlers melt everything.
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I asked about TT Brawlers specifically because I have used the ship some and quite like it, and was surprised that people don't talk about it more often. Seems like others are using it also but it's just flying under the radar.
Maybe the base Brawler is just a solid design--2 M slots on a frigate with reasonable shield, speed, ordnance and good flux--so all of them are good. LP Brawler just gets most of the attention.
I think the baseline brawler kinda sucks, tbh. TT version gets 10 more op which is a lot on a frigate, but sorely needed for one with no turret slots. LP version gets free SO and system changed to AAF. The baseline seems like it could be cool with double HVD making it basically the only long-range frigate in the game (outside of using beams), but in practice it's just not worth using.
The ship has incredible stats for a 5 dp frigate, which makes it a great example of why you shouldn't underestimate "soft" factors like speed and weapon arcs.
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I think using HVD's is why the baseline brawler might seem weak to you: they are bad weapons for anything that is "slot limited" because their DPS and efficiency are so low.
TT brawlers getting 10 OP is a good amount, and they get a better ship system (by a little bit), and they get free insulated engine assembly! But they are locked out of ballistic weapons entirely (can't put them on the small sides either), especially kinetics. Kinetic weapons (the ones without low DPS) are just really good.
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Would it be rediculous to give base Brawlers built in escort package? Each of the variants have their own things they are really good at. And can act completely independently.
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EP is exclusive to Destroyers and Cruisers. Not saying the Brawler could not get some custom version, but it would need some tweaking to get done. I find Ballistic Rangefinder could also work though.
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Giving the base brawler a custom version of escort package would be good for them, as they excel at mid-range fire support already but are the worst "hunters" of the variants. I'd say making it not scale to capitals, but instead scale to destroyers and cruisers, would work (10% range near destroyers, 30% near cruisers).
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Ballistic rangefinder is also usually restricted to destroyers and larger vessels. But the lasher is an exception.
It seems to me that the baseline brawler ought to be better designed for its intended function. And you could really stick with the basic restrictions for escort package, as destroyers are the only ship class that get the optomized bonuses.
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- i still love the classic AMB/swarmer omen combo. it's just an absolute rockstar even if it still struggles a bit against large REDACTED fleets and SUPER ALABASTER.
- usually some kind of support role. gumming up the battle line, supplemental point defense, and/or killing other frigates.
- don't really care for either, honestly. glimmer in particular requires waaaay too much micro to be fun for what's essentially an ion pulser/HVB with engines and HEF.
- monitors? in this economy? what really killed them imo was the AI changes that causes them to ignore frigs that aren't actually threatening. sure, it was cheesy, but now they just don't really have any use compared to frigs that can deal actual damage like omens and tempests.
- TT brawler is cute.
- i love the omen so much. afflictor is... fine? i don't usually run phase ships aside from flying a harbinger myself every once in a while.
- i have a soft spot for lashers in general. ultra-cheap kinetic support or ultra-cheap SO objective capturing are both solid, especially early-game.
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just Afflictor, cause I hate watching my fleet beat up an Apex for twenty minutes...
Standard AMB with Reapers, but I put an IR Pulse Laser on its head so that it does not overkill Hounds or do some other dumb stuff like that. It also probably helps kill fighters, etc. But I mostly just use it cause I know it's the only thing that makes it better than (P) Afflictor, so not using it is a waste. No, wait... I'm confusing (P) Shade with (P) Afflictor. (P) Afflictor lacks missile slots...
I also like Scarab as a concept, but I'm not sure how to build it yet.
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just Afflictor, cause I hate watching my fleet beat up an Apex for twenty minutes...
Now show how good it is, how it is at hunting 5 remnant ordos.
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just Afflictor, cause I hate watching my fleet beat up an Apex for twenty minutes...
Now show how good it is, how it is at hunting 5 remnant ordos.
in case you thought I was flexing, the point was my fleet sucks at dealing anti-armour, so I reinforce it with something that increases damage against armour...
also, why does Apex has more hull durability than the *** Grendel, for the love of god