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Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: TheLaughingDead on July 21, 2023, 11:05:14 PM

Title: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: TheLaughingDead on July 21, 2023, 11:05:14 PM: As per the title. I keep finding my later-game fleets gravitating towards cruisers, capitals, and oddly enough, frigates. Destroyers all seem too squishy but also too slow to live through fights frigates can often survive. I do find the Medusa's survivability to be decent, the teleport and decent shields help a lot, especially with a SysEx and Field Mod officer, but to be fair that officer could help a ship triple the DP survive and also make that DP thrive in a way I haven't found a destroyer able to do (even with Wolfpack Tactics). Tips? Tricks? Zany builds?!
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: CapnHector on July 21, 2023, 11:13:22 PM: Mind if I share a build in video form?

Enforcer monofleet vs 3 Remnant Ordos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAEhU79ibU8&t=642s
[close]
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Arghy on July 22, 2023, 01:29:19 AM: Shrikes are solid and the 14th enforcers can be made pretty fun but beware they're mostly there to absorb damage while other ships capitalize. Enforcers are wonky as hell because they can't handle a full medium weapon build so feel free to stick small weapons in the slot. Manticores can also be really nice in a fleet because the large slots can be super specialized and they work great as a team. The sunder is another great support destroyer because it's large energy slot can mount a wide variety but on it's own it struggles.

Big fleet battles are all about combined arms and small ships will get singled out and destroyed so expect high attrition rates but enforcers backing up aggressive cruisers or manticores acting as support turrets can really let you punch above your weight class. My current build is MK II ventures pooping out large missiles at insane rates while my cadre of direct fire support ships hopefully mop up before the missiles run out. My team of 4 heavy needler 14th enforcers can turn the tide of a battle by using the needlers alpha to overload most shields or at least drive back ships.

Just be sure to pick an element and lean into it, if you're going with a long range endurance kiting build then don't stick some short ranged ships in there that will get slaughtered alone haha. A team of shrikes and wolfs with graviton/ion beams can quickly overwhelm bigger ships and their range will buy them a ton of survivability. Enforcers with torpedoes and kinetics can make short work of larger ships and their inherent armor with some structure buffs can make them beastly to kill.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Lawrence Master-blaster on July 22, 2023, 01:45:43 AM: Quote from: TheLaughingDead on July 21, 2023, 11:05:14 PM
Tips? Tricks? Zany builds?!

There aren't any precisely for the reasons you mentioned. Too slow to cap objectives or run away, not enough firepower/tank to trade flux. The two exceptions are Medusa(mobility) and Sunder(1200+200 base range and a large energy mount)
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 02:19:42 AM: More like figuring out how to build them is just harder. But the Enforcer for example has 5 medium ballistics, 4 missiles, and enough OP for a hangar on top, all for 9 DP and getting +10% damage vs larger ships too from WPT, so can't be all bad (unless you use some of those mounts for flak I guess, then you get bad survivability and no firepower instead of just bad survivability).

There's definitely strong potential here, that 3 Ordo Enforcer fleet I'm thinking can probably do 5 Ordo just like a capital fleet and unlike a frigate fleet if there's some way to fit in Hardened Subsystems. Can't imagine Manticore LP being a terrible ship either but have never found the blueprint for it.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Lawrence Master-blaster on July 22, 2023, 05:19:42 AM: Enforcer has 5 medium ballistics but barely enough flux to fire 3 of them. I mean if it actually had 5 functional medium ballistics it would be better than the Eradicator...
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 05:36:12 AM: I mean check out the video. With an officer it's only a little overfluxed even with 3x HVD 2x Mauler. Without officer it's 300 flux short, these numbers ofc are without flux distributor which you can also put in if you want, the ship has an absolute ton of spare OP. It's fine to overflux it, treat it like an artillery piece, it's not supposed to be able to tank and return fire, rather you bring several and their overwhelming firepower will also be your main defense (that or a tanking playership for a more usual fleet comp). They are low tech ships so they are allowed to vent to keep firing.

Edit: having said that knowing what I do now, it might actually be optimal to put 1 Vulcan so you can link 4 mediums with it to force true autofire and venting on the AI though.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Lawrence Master-blaster on July 22, 2023, 07:49:05 AM: "Only a little overfluxed" by 194 with an officer, by 352 without. At the cost of dumping almost everything into vents and therefore almost no shield tank(7 OP in caps) No, you don't have a ton of spare OP, you cannot armor tank in a destroyer because they simply don't have enough armor, you have literally the entire Leadership skill line(!), you spam the hell out of Talons managing to lose over 600 crew in one fight as a result and despite it all you lost what - 6 of the Eradicators? Over 20% of your fleet?

Look man, I like what you're doing because it's cool to see how far you can push a fleet, but you are pushing them only along one specific axis. For example I'd love to see how this fleet would do against a Star Fotress, the Doritos or even a 300k Tri-Tachyon bouty with a few Dooms.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: itBeABruhMoment on July 22, 2023, 07:55:55 AM: Quote from: CapnHector on July 21, 2023, 11:13:22 PM
Mind if I share a build in video form?
You lost a quarter of you're fleet. Wouldn't call that a good outcome.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 08:06:33 AM: Quote from: Lawrence Master-blaster on July 22, 2023, 07:49:05 AM
Look man, I like what you're doing because it's cool to see how far you can push a fleet, but you are pushing them only along one specific axis. For example I'd love to see how this fleet would do against a Star Fotress, the Doritos or even a 300k Tri-Tachyon bouty with a few Dooms.

Can do next time I have game time! Which is the challenge you are most interested in

>losses
Can't worry about a few eggs when you're making this kind of an omelette. One thing that I think is almost literally impossible is making a 3 Ordo destroyer fleet that loses no ships. They are not that tough and you can't run in these fights when the enemy has fast frigate spam too. In non challenge gameplay you should bring Onslaughts to hold the frontline and let these provide supporting artillery fire.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: eert5rty7u8i9i7u6yrewqdef on July 22, 2023, 09:10:58 AM: Medusa with two railgun, phase lance, and ir autolance, has been serving me well. Build it for range, and make sure it has system expertise and it will never die.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: coldiceEVO on July 22, 2023, 10:19:03 AM: As escorts and xyphos carrier. Destoryer has the PPT, stat and speed to stay with bigger ship and lean enough in DP. And range build and CH build are less affected by dmod and further reduces logistics
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: BigBrainEnergy on July 22, 2023, 11:50:37 AM: medusa
(https://i.imgur.com/OsX2PrJ.png)
[close]

I think medusas have a shot at 3 ordos with no losses. This build served me pretty well so maybe with a little tweaking it could pull it off. You probably wouldn't even need hardened subsystems because they're more than fast enough to retreat mid-battle.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Sandor057 on July 22, 2023, 12:32:11 PM: Quote from: CapnHector on July 21, 2023, 11:13:22 PM
Mind if I share a build in video form?
Enforcer monofleet vs 3 Remnant Ordos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAEhU79ibU8&t=642s
[close]

Heh, Hector bullying the Remnants again.

To be frank I don't think destroyers are in a good spot for late game. I'd say taking 2-3 Enforcers or beam Sunders for supporting fire or converted hangars should be more than sufficient. You're better off leaving the slugging matches for Cruisers and Capitals. The only destroyers you may actually need for late game are the Phantoms for raids. Alternatively I could imagine some kind of a Gamma Core SO spam Fulgent fleet build with all kinds of hyper-agressive fun. Then again Phantoms and Flugents are not midline/low-tech, so yeah, Enforcers or Sunders.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 12:48:37 PM: Alright so I did all of Lawrence's challenges just for fun. Here are the results:
- 1. Vs Culann Starforge and Tri-Tachyon ships to total 1000 DP: took out the station, killed most of the fleet, died with 8 enemy ships remaining (I admit I was totally disconnected from the gameplay this fight, I was like they are only human what could they possibly do to my fleet, but it turns out the Enforcer fleet is significantly weaker than my 5 Ordo fleets I am used to by now). I intended this to be the Star Fortress fight but upon killing it I realized it is a battlestation.
- 2. Vs 2 Tesseracts and some extra Omega because it's hard to spawn exactly 2 Tesseracts with Console Commands: Won but lost 10 Enforcers. It's actually impressive how much trouble these things can be for slow poorly shielded destroyers. Also it turns out some of them started fleeing when they lost and they weren't initially hostile when spawned with Console Commands.
- 3. Vs Kazeron Star Fortress and 300 FP Tri-Tachyon fleet which I guess is kind of like a Tri-Tachyon elite bounty because it has 2 capitals and 3 Dooms: Won, lost 9 Enforcers

So, in summary, it turns out humans can be semi-threatening to weak fleets. Seriously though these were actually pretty fun challenges. When the 3000 or whatever DP of Hegemony I spawned to test it failed to do anything to 4 of the 5-Ordo Enforcers I had given up on fighting humans but it turns out Dooms are pretty interesting opponents. Clearly the Enforcer fleet was also making a lot more assumptions about the enemy fleet than the Executor fleet because performance was not great vs humans.

I don't think Enforcer monofleets really do wins without losses, but note that if you were to run this as an Ordo farming fleet it doesn't really care about a few D-mods and the profits will easily cover restoration or even just buying new ships.

I made 1 change to the layout for these fights, namely linked the Breaches with the medium guns, which you generally should do for shorter fights, multi-Ordos are an exception.

Videos (not publishing these because they're just the basic random fights)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9xzvt_G2q8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l1BZVI0WFM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXnGamMUtbg
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Thaago on July 22, 2023, 12:54:24 PM: I was using some support doctrine enforcers with a hangar as backup ships for a pure low tech run, and they did ok. Not spectacular, and the fact that so many of the strong new ships are perfectly designed to kill destroyers makes it tough to use them endgame.

My biggest advice: using HVD on them is rough! Shorter ranged but higher efficiency weapons make them much more dangerous, at least for my use of them as line-filling/escort ships. Heavy Needlers let them burst up the flux of ships, opening them up to a torpedo/breach strike. They have burn drive for a reason: crank up the faction aggression and let them burn into range - ordos will just come to them anyways.

This also frees up weapon slots to include some high efficiency PD, like a vulcan or two. 2 Heavy needlers (alternating weapon group) + a vulcan is 34 DP instead of 39 for 3 HVDs, provides 'light' point defense for shooting down the occasional missile or torpedo, and gives 500 kinetic DPS for 400 flux instead of 414 dps for 525 flux. Even using a flak can be good - their superior reach lets neighboring enforcers defend each other a bit better, and its still a net savings of OP over HVDs.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 01:07:47 PM: It's a ship you really don't want to send close to the enemy though when it has bad shields, can't win the flux war, is unable to retreat and has defensive stats equal to a Colossus Mk. II (300 more armor though). Not to mention literally all Remnant ships (including Apex with Elite Helmsmanship) can just retreat from it if they feel threatened if it doesn't keep burning in. That's why you pay for the +43% range with HVD.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: TheLaughingDead on July 22, 2023, 01:25:56 PM: Quote from: CapnHector on July 21, 2023, 11:13:22 PM
Mind if I share a build in video form?
That is pretty cool. You lost a lot of crew/ships, but it looks like the crew was a Talon issue and the ships were mostly from Radiants. Against the speed and firepower of a teleporting capital ship, I can't imagine a destroyer monofleet making it out without losses. Normally I try and build my low-tech Enforcers/cruisers/capitals with a more armour-oriented defense, but it makes sense that an endurance fight against 3+ Ordos will necessitate more shield strats. The lack of PD also demands shields over armour. Actually, I've noticed all of your ship builds in multi-ordo fights use Hardened Shields over Heavy Armour. Have you found it to be useful anywhere?

Quote from: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 02:19:42 AM
...so can't be all bad (unless you use some of those mounts for flak I guess, then you get bad survivability and no firepower instead of just bad survivability).
I am guilty as charged...

Quote from: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 05:36:12 AM
...having said that knowing what I do now, it might actually be optimal to put 1 Vulcan so you can link 4 mediums with it to force true autofire and venting on the AI though.
I have not heard of this trick. Does linking regular guns with PD force them to always fire, even at high flux? That could be super useful to overcome some AI hesitancy I run into.

Quote from: BigBrainEnergy on July 22, 2023, 11:50:37 AM
medusa
(https://i.imgur.com/OsX2PrJ.png)
[close]

I think medusas have a shot at 3 ordos with no losses. This build served me pretty well so maybe with a little tweaking it could pull it off. You probably wouldn't even need hardened subsystems because they're more than fast enough to retreat mid-battle.
Hey, I used a very similar build a little while back! Worked pretty well, though I built it with S-modded Expanded Magazines and focused on caps; because it teleports, it can move in, dump its charges, and then usually get away for a vent/to drop shields.
My freaky offshoot evolution (sidevolution?) was a dual Ion Pulser build, with 2x Light Needlers, 2x Ion Pulsers, 2x Antimatter Blasters (!), and a Burst PD on the back. It didn't have ITU because it couldn't afford it and the Ion + Antimatter didn't benefit that much. Massive alpha, though the build was incredibly overfluxed (like the entire flux bar would top off with soft flux) but I think with some tweaks I could make it work. For example, I built in Hardened Subsystems and Stabilized Shields (the latter in particular I was playing around with) and both of those could probably be subbed for the caps/vents hullmods and/or shield buffs.
In the end though, I found that the Medusa officer needed to make that work could also serve on an Odyssey and really wreck face from that ship. I'll have to go back to the Medusa and play around with it some more :)

In general, lots of interesting things to think about in this thread. I'm going to go for an all destroyer fleet and see how it does. I'm tempted to start with a line-battle type fleet, thinking some mix of Enforcers, Sunders, Manticores, Hammerheads, SO Shrikes for point cap perhaps. Thinking the Sunders are a simple beam artillery build, Manticores fit a Mark IX (or Gauss with officer) and Breaches/Harpoons as artillery as well, but what about Hammerheads? The classic Heavy Mortar/Railgun combo puts them pretty close to the enemy lines compared to the Manti/Sunder builds. Dual HVD with Warthogs perhaps... Any build recommendations that make them pull their DP, or ought I sub them for more Enforcers?
(how will I even fit my fleet with all these ships lol)

PS: While writing this post, there have been 3+ new messages. I apologize for not addressing them!
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 01:42:05 PM: Quote from: TheLaughingDead on July 22, 2023, 01:25:56 PM
Quote from: CapnHector on July 21, 2023, 11:13:22 PM
Mind if I share a build in video form?
That is pretty cool. You lost a lot of crew/ships, but it looks like the crew was a Talon issue and the ships were mostly from Radiants. Against the speed and firepower of a teleporting capital ship, I can't imagine a destroyer monofleet making it out without losses. Normally I try and build my low-tech Enforcers/cruisers/capitals with a more armour-oriented defense, but it makes sense that an endurance fight against 3+ Ordos will necessitate more shield strats. The lack of PD also demands shields over armour. Actually, I've noticed all of your ship builds in multi-ordo fights use Hardened Shields over Heavy Armour. Have you found it to be useful anywhere?

Yes, the
Venture Mk. II Ordo farming fleet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAgPFxq9HfI
[close]
featured Heavy Armor on all ships. The main thing is it is really expensive and I do not think it would make the Enforcers significantly more survivable, 300 armor is easily taken care of, at least the Hardened Shields gives 1916 extra damage the loadout can tank in theory and ideally repeatably and also gives -EMP damage from beams. On the other hand capitals can't armor tank in these multi-Ordo challenge fights as it's just too much damage for one ship. So it generally doesn't make it in as of .96 as the S-mod penalty is really bad too.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Thaago on July 22, 2023, 01:47:03 PM: Quote from: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 01:07:47 PM
It's a ship you really don't want to send close to the enemy though when it has bad shields, can't win the flux war, is unable to retreat and has defensive stats equal to a Colossus Mk. II (300 more armor though). Not to mention literally all Remnant ships (including Apex with Elite Helmsmanship) can just retreat from it if they feel threatened if it doesn't keep burning in. That's why you pay for the +43% range with HVD.

Huh, I consider it the exact opposite: It wants to be as close to the enemy as possible! It has better armor/hp than anything else for its DP except maybe ventures (and 990 vs 600 armor is, uhh, a large difference in terms of CMII), can win flux wars both with numbers and also with using better guns, and has the missile power to burst down enemies. Because its base capacity is so low, investing points into capacity is very helpful - I try to get at least 15 on any build (this is easier for me as I don't take the tech skill to get more vents in a normal playthrough, as I don't consider it worth it over combat skills except for when I'm doing high tech frigate packs).

With HVD, a build isn't just paying for 43% more range: it's paying for 45% less damage per mount and 59% more flux per damage. In terms of winning the flux war, it is a very poor gun. In your video there are many times when the enemy are very close anyways, but the Enforcers are firing low efficiency guns vs shield.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Jang on July 22, 2023, 01:50:59 PM: You could use Support Doctrine + Derelict Operations to make destroyers work for endgame. Here's 1st try with post-nerf Drover spam, managed to clear 1600 DP with just a few losses before CR caught up with me:

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/G1Ko6mc.png)
[close]
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 02:01:30 PM: Quote from: Jang on July 22, 2023, 01:50:59 PM
You could use Support Doctrine + Derelict Operations to make destroyers work for endgame. Here's 1st try with post-nerf Drover spam, managed to clear 1600 DP with just a few losses before CR caught up with me:

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/G1Ko6mc.png)
[close]

Now that seems like a strong destroyer fleet. What's the loadout?
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Jang on July 22, 2023, 02:11:14 PM: Bit reluctant to share the loadout because I just threw it together without testing, but it was 30 of these lil guys:

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/dB1W1hV.png)
[close]

This isn't necessarily the direction I'd take to optimize it but it did work pretty well. In hindsight I would drop at least one Drover for some frigates because I didn't get to deploy all my ships until they started dying at the end lol
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Draba on July 22, 2023, 03:01:46 PM: Quote from: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 01:07:47 PM
It's a ship you really don't want to send close to the enemy though when it has bad shields, can't win the flux war, is unable to retreat and has defensive stats equal to a Colossus Mk. II (300 more armor though). Not to mention literally all Remnant ships (including Apex with Elite Helmsmanship) can just retreat from it if they feel threatened if it doesn't keep burning in. That's why you pay for the +43% range with HVD.
Part of not being that tough is spending tons of OP on HVD/mauler though (although heavy mortar might not be a good enough alternative to mauler).
Enforcer is a pretty small target, can kinda-sorta hide in swarms and doesn't instantly die on hull hits so extra capacity goes a long way.
Also think missile autoloader is a complete waste, building almost literally anything else in should help more IMO.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 03:59:24 PM: How would you build it to take out 3 Ordos? I'd (genuinely) like to see a better Enforcer build, it is a fun ship in all its brutal glory

Before settling on this I tried 5 Railgun 4 Breach which was my goto last version and 4 Railgun 1 Light AG 4 Breach, both with BRF, but they did not seem to work. Memory is a little fuzzy already whether it was dying or killing speed.

Missile Autoloader is just to make the Hammers last. With it they are 10-20% of the unofficered ships' damage so seems good, and they are needed to burst big Remnant ships. Would love to put in 4x Hammer instead but that doesn't actually make them last longer since the AI will fire 4 at a time.

Quote from: Jang on July 22, 2023, 02:11:14 PM
Bit reluctant to share the loadout because I just threw it together without testing, but it was 30 of these lil guys:

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/dB1W1hV.png)
[close]

This isn't necessarily the direction I'd take to optimize it but it did work pretty well. In hindsight I would drop at least one Drover for some frigates because I didn't get to deploy all my ships until they started dying at the end lol

It's definitely a find, thanks for sharing! Since you don't appear to even use the missiles for damage on the Drover, I wonder if Condors might be workable too? You could run them without DO due to only being 8 OP a piece with SD.
Title: Re: Tips on late-game midline/low-tech destroyer use?
Post by: Draba on July 23, 2023, 06:12:46 AM: Quote from: CapnHector on July 22, 2023, 03:59:24 PM
How would you build it to take out 3 Ordos? I'd (genuinely) like to see a better Enforcer build, it is a fun ship in all its brutal glory
Dunno and IMO it's not worth bothering, Enforcer is just a really bad ship for something like this.
Can't get botb+hull restoration+the important tech/leadership skill together, so will have botb+support doctrine and can't fill to 240 DP without going over the 30 ship limit.
Padding with converted hangars looks terrible to me: talons suck hard and will kill crew in the hundreds, wasp spam isn't what's needed here, broadswords add 2 DP and still drop like flies.

If you want destroyer monofleets go hammerhead, 90 speed and 0.8 shields, ammo feeder, better flux, the higher DP just means skipping hangars.
Enforcer without fully utilising its armor/hull/S missiles isn't that hot.

Overall agreed with the first post, destroyers are not worth using later on. Frigates can cap and fight flankers, cruisers fight everything, Falcon are there for a compromise between the 2.
After early game destroyers weren't that good to begin with, and this version Nova was added and converted hangar cheese fixed.
LP Manticore is the exception, +if you squint hard enough Sunder might be worth trying but terribad shields and destroyer ITU make sure that it dies a lot even with beams.