Post by: itBeABruhMoment on June 17, 2023, 07:21:05 PM
What do you all think about destroyers?
Post by: SafariJohn on June 17, 2023, 07:39:38 PM
- much slower than frigates
- much larger than frigates
- double fuel consumption vs frigates
- no "elite" destroyers with cruiser DP
- most damage bonuses against them
- least damage bonuses against others
Post by: Foraven on June 17, 2023, 08:15:43 PM
Post by: Lawrence Master-blaster on June 17, 2023, 09:44:13 PM
- no "elite" destroyers with cruiser DP
This is the real issue IMO. You're not going to be using most frigates late game either but there are just few "premium" ones that keep up. Destroyers basically have no premiums.
Post by: BigBrainEnergy on June 17, 2023, 10:06:53 PM
medusa
(https://i.imgur.com/OsX2PrJ.png)
[close]
stats
(https://i.imgur.com/UQZdyO4.png)
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poor guys 
(https://i.imgur.com/PkwNu8x.png)
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Maybe destroyers would be better if their targeting unit was 10 op for 25% range instead of 8 op for 20%?
Post by: Hiruma Kai on June 18, 2023, 12:02:11 AM
Second, there's the support ships which fight off small ships to prevent the damage dealers from getting swarmed and distract larger ships. Destroyers don't fill any of these roles very well.
I find they work fine as escorts to fight off the small ships to prevent the damage dealers from getting swarmed, and distract larger ships. Now I find an Enforcer tends to be a better escort than distractor, but the Medusa can do the later quite well (although perhaps not as good as a close escort, sacrificing its mobility due to escort AI). Linked Sabots + Harpoons with an Expanded Missile Rack plus Missile Specialization officer on an Enforcer will wipe the first few frigates that get close, while also outranging or at least matching the range of any beam frigates.
- most damage bonuses against them
- least damage bonuses against others
These are a bit of an exaggeration.
Target Analysis is only a +10% bonus against destroyers, compared to +15% vs cruisers or +20% vs capitals. So clearly not the most damage bonuses against them.
S-mod Advanced Gyros provides a larger bonus against frigates than destroyers.
Wolfpack Tactics gives frigates the same 20% bonus against capitals and cruisers as it does destroyers.
And Wolfpack Tactics is also a +10% damage for a destroyer against cruisers and capitals that cruisers and capitals cannot get. So they don't have the least damage bonuses against others.
They really get the middle of road bonuses, rather than most and least.
As far as premium frigates that cost as much a light cruiser go, I actually prefer Medusa over Hyperion in 0.96. With Safety Overrides or without (although without SO I tend to take advantage of Tesseract weapon drops). Same maximum flux stats and shield stats, but more OP, PPT, and mounts, plus a ship movement system that is comparable. You can get 360 shields now with it as well. And all for 80% of the DP. It might not compare to a heavy cruiser, but a Medusa is a solid competitor to a light cruiser when fit with an appropriate officer.
I certainly have used Medusa in double Ordo fights. Might get unlucky and have one pop, but they definitely feel more durable than frigates in the same roles. Given the attached screen shot is from a Neural Link + Automated ship character build, those Medusa are doing quite well for only having Wolfpack Tactics and Crew Training from the leadership tree, and not using safety overrides. Systems Expertise + Phase skimmer + Helmsmanship (+50% maneuverability to get moving in the right direction faster) lets them back out from Novas and Brilliants most of the time.
Admittedly, not as strong as having, say, a pack of Gryphon cruisers, but I'd say it compares favorably against swapping in 4 Hyperions for the 5 Medusa (25% of the fleet DP).
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Post by: prav on June 18, 2023, 12:23:24 AM
There's a fair argument that that's what the fast cruisers are for. But what do I want the destroyers for? They're not particularly good at screening frigates (not generally a pressing need anyway) nor at flanking capitals.
Post by: llama on June 18, 2023, 02:13:12 AM
Post by: TaLaR on June 18, 2023, 03:31:10 AM
Hammerhead and Sunder's survival strategy is to unload system boosted dps on approaching fast cruiser. Both have enough firepower to make something like Falcon back off (but Falcon is better in long range build anyway, in which case it has absolute speed + range advantage).
Enforcer is just not built for solo survival. In theory it could play broadside and kite with Burn drive, but AI won't do that and player shouldn't either (because it's waste of player's piloting impact).
And that's only if we conveniently forged about fast capitals like Odyssey and Retribution. Which are fast and powerful enough to leave destroyers no survival options at all.
Post by: Vanshilar on June 18, 2023, 03:48:01 AM
And that's only if we conveniently forged about fast capitals like Odyssey and Retribution. Which are fast and powerful enough to leave destroyers no survival options at all.
I think the "defense" against that is that you're then committing 45 DP or 35 DP to take care of a 10 DP destroyer; in other words, the destroyer is successfully splitting off the other fleet, at the cost of its own survival. So the capital might win the "local" matchup, but it makes the "global" matchup i.e. the rest of the fleet more likely to lose.
Post by: TaLaR on June 18, 2023, 03:52:42 AM
I think the "defense" against that is that you're then committing 45 DP or 35 DP to take care of a 10 DP destroyer; in other words, the destroyer is successfully splitting off the other fleet, at the cost of its own survival. So the capital might win the "local" matchup, but it makes the "global" matchup i.e. the rest of the fleet more likely to lose.
Which hardly matters when your goal is to win without losses. Or at least not lose any s-mod ships (losing some of cheap distraction Shepherds is fine)
Post by: Grievous69 on June 18, 2023, 04:01:25 AM
Sunders and Manticores work because they have enough range and very good firepower. Medusas can work if you carefully build them to be survivable. And Condors and Drovers are okay I guess since they cheap DP wise. There really could be a place for an elite destroyer that has insane firepower potential but doesn't rely on range. Kinda like what Aurora is to an average cruiser.
Post by: Igncom1 on June 18, 2023, 04:09:47 AM
Some frigates are incredible, but even those I wouldn't value too highly in starbase battles or against foes like the AI with their own super frigates.
Post by: Grievous69 on June 18, 2023, 04:16:17 AM
Post by: BaBosa on June 18, 2023, 04:37:31 AM
You know s-mod ships are almost always recoverable just like ships with officers, reinforced bulkheads or rugged construction? That's one reason I like Omens is that you can chuck an s-mod on and then throw them at ships to distract them and if it dies, it is cheap to restore.I think the "defense" against that is that you're then committing 45 DP or 35 DP to take care of a 10 DP destroyer; in other words, the destroyer is successfully splitting off the other fleet, at the cost of its own survival. So the capital might win the "local" matchup, but it makes the "global" matchup i.e. the rest of the fleet more likely to lose.Which hardly matters when your goal is to win without losses. Or at least not lose any s-mod ships (losing some of cheap distraction Shepherds is fine)
Post by: SafariJohn on June 18, 2023, 09:22:29 AM
- most damage bonuses against them
- least damage bonuses against others
These are a bit of an exaggeration.
...
And Wolfpack Tactics is also a +10% damage for a destroyer against cruisers and capitals that cruisers and capitals cannot get. So they don't have the least damage bonuses against others.
Can't disagree, I forgot about Wolfpack Tactics boosting destroyers.
All size-based percent bonuses and their averages if I am not forgetting anything:
(https://i.imgur.com/9p6EGg1.png)
Destroyers are mostly middle of the road, although there is a big jump in the averages between destroyers and frigates on both sides.
However, in 99.9% of cases enemy ships do not have s-modded Advanced Turret Gyros or Wolfpack Tactics, which produces a simple Targeting Analysis graph:
(https://i.imgur.com/i4VkaWl.png)
So the player's destroyers usually take a a flat +10% damage over their frigates when they get hit. Which, of course, is much more often due to their ~125% greater size (+50% radius).
To do some crude math, ignoring speed dodging, an Enforcer from The Wolf Pack has 6800 flux / 1.0 efficiency / 1.5 for its radius / 1.1 for TA = 4121 effective shield strength. The Tempest from TWP has 3500 flux / 0.8 efficiency / 1.0 radius / 1.0 for TA = 4375 effective shield flux.
4121 for Enforcer with TA
4375 for Tempest
4533 for Enforcer without TA
Obviously this is an oversimplification, possibly a gross one, but I think it shows that the damage bonuses do skew the game towards frigates over destroyers more than is intended.
Post by: Hiruma Kai on June 18, 2023, 11:35:44 AM
Obviously this is an oversimplification, possibly a gross one, but I think it shows that the damage bonuses do skew the game towards frigates over destroyers more than is intended.
That does feel like a gross over simplification to me, to be honest. Depending on weapon (HVD vs Heavy Mortar for example), that 50% bigger size might matter or not. If the frigate is getting hit by 80% of a particular weapon, then you can't have a 50% more damage factor, at most 25%. Also, I think for armor, being bigger is an advantage if I remember correctly, since you get more armor cells.
Also, to be fair, you're comparing a low tech Enforcer whose primary defense is its 900 armor and 6000 hull, not its shields, to a high tech frigate whose DP costs are equal to a destroyer. Why not do the math for a Shrike which actually costs the same DP as the Tempest and uses shields for its primary defense? Or a Medusa which is the premium destroyer in the same way a Tempest is a premium frigate costing as much as a light destroyer? Or compare the Lasher to the Enforcer?
Also, I'm bit confused by your flux capacitor choices. 5 for the Tempest and 14 for the Enforcer? I feel like that confuses things a bit, so I'm going to consider min and max capacitors, to provide a full range comparison, and compare the Tempest to the 3 destroyers I just mentioned.
Tempest Min = 2500 / 0.8 eff/ 1.0 rad / 1.0 TA = 3125
Tempest Max = 4500 / 0.8 eff / 1.0 rad / 1.0 TA = 5625
Enforcer Min = 4000 / 1.0 eff / 1.5 rad / 1.1 TA = 2424
Enforcer Max = 8000 / 1.0 eff / 1.5 rad / 1.1 TA = 4848
Shrike Min = 5400 / 0.7 eff / 1.5 rad / 1.1 TA = 4675
Shrike Max = 9400 / 0.7 eff / 1.5 rad / 1.1 TA = 8138
Medusa Min = 6000 / 0.6 eff / 1.5 rad / 1.1 TA = 6060
Medusa Max = 10000 / 0.6 eff / 1.5 rad / 1.1 TA = 10,101
Given the Shrike is a much closer comparison to the Tempest, and costs exactly the same DP, yet has 1.4 to 1.5 times the shield even after scaling by 1.5 for radius, I don't see an issue. Using this over simplified approximation, destroyers do in fact take more punishment for their DP cost. The issue isn't the shield capacity, it is the capability to back off - although that can be an issue for a large swath of frigates such as Lashers, Centurions, Monitors, Brawlers, Shepherds. And a Shrike has no problems catching up to a Tempest, especially with System Expertise. That is not even getting to the Medusa for 12 DP has 1.8 to 1.9 times the shield. And through its ship system, move faster than a Tempest at times.
Actually, lets do the same for a Shrike to an Eradicator (high tech destroyer vs low tech cruiser), but comparing an 8 DP to 22 DP.
Eradicator Min = 9000 / 1.0 eff / 2.0 rad / 1.15 TA = 3,913
Eradicator Max = 15000 / 1.0 eff / 2.0 rad / 1.15 TA = 6,521
Could these numbers be interpreted as some kind of balance issue with cruisers relative to destroyers?
Post by: SafariJohn on June 18, 2023, 02:07:46 PM
TA easily shaves off 1-2 seconds of shield time for destroyers at no firing cost to the attacker. Does that make destroyers useless? Of course not. But when they are competing with high end frigates that don't have that penalty and move faster and are cheaper and, and, and... it makes it a little harder to justify using them than I'd like.
Post by: Wyvern on June 18, 2023, 02:44:01 PM
Post by: Zsar on June 19, 2023, 01:50:05 AM
Shrikes (both (P) and normal) are pretty good "Tempest with Reapers instead of Terminators", though survivability is poor before S-mods.
Sunders are just too brittle when equipped with effective weapons, but I tend to keep around one or two with 2x Graviton Beam, HIL, ITU and Advanced Optics - those cannot kill anything by themselves, but they do stay alive, increase the shield damage of their neighbors and force everything below capital size to keep said shields up and collect hard flux.
... All the other destroyers though, yeah... Condors, Enforcers, Geminis are too slow period (unless you build your whole fleet around that speed); Buffalo Mk.2s, Hammerheads, Manticores are too slow to back off quickly enough against diving cruisers; Drovers (since 0.96a) are not worth their DP in Herons, Harbingers are not worth their DP in Afflictor (P)s; personally I have not had luck with the Medusa so far, though maybe I have yet to build it right.
Post by: Horselover Manly on June 19, 2023, 02:04:58 AM
Post by: Thaago on June 19, 2023, 11:10:12 AM
The game has a lot more "destroyer hunters" than it used to though - that new remnant battlecruiser really likes rushing them down and popping them (even if it overcommits and dies in the process). A support doctrine destroyer is just not up to getting focused by an alpha core battlecruiser! Even though I'm a destroyer lover, I may need to find a new strategy or new builds to lower losses.