I think lashers suck too, so saying they're maybe better than lashers is not saying much to me lol.
Expendable is the opposite of what I want. That means wasting supplies and crew losing and then recovering ships when I could use more durable alternatives that won't die. Lashers are way too squishy to fight the big scary end game threats, and don't really present any benefits over alternatives for early/mid game IMO.QuoteI think lashers suck too, so saying they're maybe better than lashers is not saying much to me lol.
Why so much hate to these little guys ? They do their part. Cheap and expendable. I'd take 10 of those over an Onslaught any day of the week. And they'd probably win too.
I'm pretty much with OP about the Vanguard though. I can't seem to get the AI to do a good job with it. My fondness of scrappiness dissipates after the 5th time in a row the same ship blows up.
Why not ships that can leverage your officers well but you also don't sweat too much if they die?All ships cost money when they die, even if just the supplies and crew to recover them. I'm never happy about that, until I no longer care about money, in which case I just want the most powerful/effective ships per DP. Lasher and vanguard do not fit that bill either IMO.
Elite Point Defense lets you do some crazy stuff. LMGs are NUTS.
Why not ships that can leverage your officers well but you also don't sweat too much if they die?All ships cost money when they die, even if just the supplies and crew to recover them. I'm never happy about that, until I no longer care about money, in which case I just want the most powerful/effective ships per DP. Lasher and vanguard do not fit that bill either IMO.
Elite Point Defense lets you do some crazy stuff. LMGs are NUTS.
Elite point defense is fine on any ship that can mount small/medium ballistics. Nothing special about lasher or vanguard there.
Expendable is the opposite of what I wantFair enough. Just of note they can soak damage intended for other valuable assets and can even tank a big fighter/missile screen on their own cause small frame speed PD and ballistic.
don't really present any benefits over alternativesThey embody the hit-and-run tactic quite well and if you're willing to swap them when things get dicey they're a nice opener for any battle. To get the big boys to chase after a swarm of flies is endless fun.
Vanguard puts massive flux pressure on a target and then can vibe in Dampener while your anti-armor stuff (like a Brawler) takes advantage of the overflux'd target
Except the Vanguard can fit A LOT of them and has an ability providing it some good tank. Mix it with some heavier DPS frigates and it should do just fine.Idk, there are tons of ships with lots of small and medium mounts. Eradicator, mora, and onslaught all come to mind as tanky armor-heavy ships that have more mounts. They can all follow up on their own kinetic pressure (requiring no AI coordination which is very difficult to achieve reliably), and are all much tankier. I would much rather put an officer in any of them: they all die much less often, and do more damage.
Basically the Vanguard puts massive flux pressure on a target and then can vibe in Dampener while your anti-armor stuff (like a Brawler) takes advantage of the overflux'd target.
In my experience, actual big boys like remnants don't do much chasing, mostly just killing. If any of the enemies have phase lances, or heavy blasters, or plasma cannons, or tach lances, or any large HE weapon, it's just gg. A scarab or hyperion will fill the same role, but die less often and probably deal more damage overall too.Quotedon't really present any benefits over alternativesThey embody the hit-and-run tactic quite well and if you're willing to swap them when things get dicey they're a nice opener for any battle. To get the big boys to chase after a swarm of flies is endless fun.
Sure, if you just want to min-max the game then there's a lot of ships that aren't "good" options.Except the Vanguard can fit A LOT of them and has an ability providing it some good tank. Mix it with some heavier DPS frigates and it should do just fine.Idk, there are tons of ships with lots of small and medium mounts. Eradicator, mora, and onslaught all come to mind as tanky armor-heavy ships that have more mounts. They can all follow up on their own kinetic pressure (requiring no AI coordination which is very difficult to achieve reliably), and are all much tankier. I would much rather put an officer in any of them: they all die much less often, and do more damage.
Basically the Vanguard puts massive flux pressure on a target and then can vibe in Dampener while your anti-armor stuff (like a Brawler) takes advantage of the overflux'd target.In my experience, actual big boys like remnants don't do much chasing, mostly just killing. If any of the enemies have phase lances, or heavy blasters, or plasma cannons, or tach lances, or any large HE weapon, it's just gg. A scarab or hyperion will fill the same role, but die less often and probably deal more damage overall too.Quotedon't really present any benefits over alternativesThey embody the hit-and-run tactic quite well and if you're willing to swap them when things get dicey they're a nice opener for any battle. To get the big boys to chase after a swarm of flies is endless fun.
... I think lashers suck too, so saying they're maybe better than lashers is not saying much to me lol.
This makes the usual early-game Lasher flagship viable in officer hands
The dampener also more or less acts as a safe flux vent for the ship.
I find the concept of using the dampener to vent to be laughable.
The dampener also more or less acts as a safe flux vent for the ship.I find the concept of using the dampener to vent to be laughable.
@Locklave: That's quite rude. Please be more respectful towards other forum members in the future.
Officered scarabs are my go-to for frigates.I like Omens with officers. 'Systems Expertise' + 'Target Analysis+' + 'Point Defense+' officers to be precise. Then you give them a short PD weapon, possibly one you get from a [REDACTED]. They'll just toy around with their prey, till the big brothers join the fight :D
Officered scarabs are my go-to for frigates.I like Omens with officers. 'Systems Expertise' + 'Target Analysis+' + 'Point Defense+' officers to be precise. Then you give them a short PD weapon, possibly one you get from a [REDACTED]. They'll just toy around with their prey, till the big brothers join the fight :D
100% of flux output being dumped into eight ballistics is better than "okay".
I posted combat logs of it punching up vs the 2nd most dangerous faction in the game.
Better frigates get flux locked...
You're probably using it in the wrong role or haven't actually tried it.
I think the Vanguard was supposed to be the low-tech doctrine's answer to fancy high-tech frigates like the Tempest or Scarab but the final product is in the Lasher/Wolf tier.I actually prefer Lasher over Vanguard. With the builtin rangefinder+ammo feeder it's pretty nice, just have serious popping problems.
One nice thing about the Vanguard is that rugged construction also applies to enemy Vanguards you've taken out, so if you tangle with some Hegemony patrols you can grab Vanguards with no d-mods pretty cheaply. Of course fighting with the Hegemony early on isn't likely to be typical player behavior in unmodded games.That, plus the weapons it uses are found everywhere even as loot, is why I use Vanguard at times.
I think the Vanguard was supposed to be the low-tech doctrine's answer to fancy high-tech frigates like the Tempest or Scarab but the final product is in the Lasher/Wolf tier.Which would not be bad if it did not cost almost as much as a destroyer and more than a Scarab!
Officered scarabs are my go-to for frigates.I like Omens with officers. 'Systems Expertise' + 'Target Analysis+' + 'Point Defense+' officers to be precise. Then you give them a short PD weapon, possibly one you get from a [REDACTED]. They'll just toy around with their prey, till the big brothers join the fight :D
You should try Monitors with officers, it can go toe to toe with monster ships. Go with an anti shield weapon and watch a Brilliant burn out on flux just trying to get it's shields down.
AI piloted stock attack pirate vanguard with steady officer lvl 5 (impact mitigation,ballistic mastery,target analysis,systems expertise elite, polarized armor) loses battle to single pirate hound in simulation. All due to damper field usage while hound just fires away and eventually kills off the vanguard.
I actually prefer Lasher over Vanguard. With the builtin rangefinder+ammo feeder it's pretty nice, just have serious popping problems.
The main thing Vanguard has over it for me is that it seems to be in position for firing torpedos at hull really often.
The AI 100% has no clue when it should use Dampener field on a shieldless ship so it just randomly uses it giving enemies the advantage. If someone mods this system off the ship it will instantly perform better.I guess have Shield Shunt remove Damper Field too, although Shield Shunt needs to be more useful.
The AI 100% has no clue when it should use Dampener field on a shieldless ship so it just randomly uses it giving enemies the advantage. If someone mods this system off the ship it will instantly perform better.I guess have Shield Shunt remove Damper Field too, although Shield Shunt needs to be more useful.
Yeah. Lasher already was pretty decent and now it has a decent range advantage over other frigates to boot. It isn't even less missile-efficient than Vanguard, though Vanguard has somewhat better mobility, which I don't think excuses its performance in other fields or its cost.I think the Vanguard was supposed to be the low-tech doctrine's answer to fancy high-tech frigates like the Tempest or Scarab but the final product is in the Lasher/Wolf tier.I actually prefer Lasher over Vanguard. With the builtin rangefinder+ammo feeder it's pretty nice, just have serious popping problems.
The main thing Vanguard has over it for me is that it seems to be in position for firing torpedos at hull really often.
A thing I noticed is if the enemy fleet has anything with High Intensity Laser and points it at Vanguards, they drop like flies. HIL is too effective against all of the armor in the world. If the fleet does not have such a can opener, Vanguard sometimes dies a bit more often than other frigates, sometimes not.Yeah, it's too bad HIL is the anti-shieldless ship. I see ships burn driving toward a ship with HIL to lose half its hull integrity.
Tac lance and plasma cannon are also very bad for shieldless ships. Basically any enemy fleet with lots of large energy slots is going to have a field day with shieldless ships.Same for Heph, and to a lesser extent Mjolnir. Hellbore also hurts a lot, but DPS is low and Vanguard doesn't get hit by it that often.
On top of that, I also find the Vanguard hard to outfit in a satisfactory way. It has way more mounts than flux capacity, so you want to put missiles in the composite mounts. Those are also the only hardpoints though, so if you want to use any high-recoil ballistics you're stuck putting them in turrets instead. And it's OP-hungry for all the usual armor-tank hullmods, but also badly wants the missile mods. In the end I just couldn't find a build for it that felt right.Nailed it!
Can anyone even think of a single ship in this game with such strict "pick this or be terrible" hull mods? There is a strong argument that can be made that those 2 hull mods aren't even the only set in stone ones for this ship and that 4-6 might realistically forced on us. Those hull mods nearly all being survival related.I can, Harbinger. It is basically a phase Vanguard without the zombie features since its system was overnerfed into near uselessness, and it needs the same Armored Turrets, Heavy Armor, and Resistant Flux Conduits to not die as fast. It is too slow to play assassin despite AI attempting it. At least AI Vanguard can do something resembling competence as long as the enemy is not packing High Intensity Lasers.
2) As high of vents as you can getBut why? As you said it can't get overloaded, only thing generating flux are weapons, so have your dissipation match weapon flux as close as possible. Ideally it should be a tiny bit under so you can abuse Polarized armour.
Because there is no way your dissipation will exceed your generation if you're going balls-to-the-wall damage, so it let's your high burst damage last longer before needing to vent.2) As high of vents as you can getBut why? As you said it can't get overloaded, only thing generating flux are weapons, so have your dissipation match weapon flux as close as possible. Ideally it should be a tiny bit under so you can abuse Polarized armour.
In the case of the Vanguard, this means that Polarized Armor is a constant 25% Armor/EMP damage reduction unless you decide to put Makeshift Shield on it.Vanguard cannot take Makeshift Shields.
They should, new buff to makeshift shield generator in converting damper ships to makeshift shield'd ships to encourage vanguard variety :)In the case of the Vanguard, this means that Polarized Armor is a constant 25% Armor/EMP damage reduction unless you decide to put Makeshift Shield on it.Vanguard cannot take Makeshift Shields.
Vanguard should have the new dreadnought armor, it should have very high armor but less protection per armor. Currently the armor gets weared off too quickly, the damper field and damper field AI suck. Hopefully this would compensate them. It's useful for chasing away other frigates but that's not really what people expect from an elite frigate.With every buff, Vanguard can shrug of enough to kill a destroyer before it dies. The big problem is squeezing in Polarized Armor on officers when I have other skills I want on them (and did not get Officer Training). If Vanguard cannot get Polarized Armor, then it is not resilient enough. As is, Vanguard does not feel elite enough to justify its cost. It is good for a Lasher or Centurion tier frigate.
That said, my main memory of actually piloting a Vanguard was transferring command to one of them thinking I could duel some remnant frigate that was hijacking my comm relay (I think a Glimmer) only for all my weapons to get stunlocked because I couldn't block the EMP damage, forcing me to damper field away and call in a Tempest to kill it for me.This is a reason why Polarized Armor, among other things, is a must. Resistant Flux Conduits and Polarized Armor will make the ship highly resistant to EMP.
This is a reason why Polarized Armor, among other things, is a must. Resistant Flux Conduits and Polarized Armor will make the ship highly resistant to EMP.
Ships without shields need the following hullmods: Armored Weapon Mounts, Heavy Armor, and Resistant Flux Conduits.
Ships without shields also need the following skills: Impact Mitigation and Polarized Armor.
A good alternative to this build is the Damage Control skill plus Automated Repair mod. You can still add any of the extras mentioned above, and they'll work great, but with this, the ship can survive most fights, even if it isn't technically effective. Plus, Support Doctrine skill will give you damage control on ships without a captain, so you could field a few of these to stuff up the battle space.That is good for practical immunity to weapon and engine knockout. (Not true immunity, but repair times are so fast they might as well be. Good times when I used it in older releases.) But it does not affect armor, only hull, which is not bad either. I would not use this instead of armor, but on top of it.
Also, I wouldn't use missiles on this thing without ECCM. Neither Annihilators or Breachers are going to hit frigates without it, so let that OP be used against the ships most likely to be pressuring it. I mean, if you have to, take off one missile rack and drop cap until you can fit ECCM. It makes that much of a difference. It's better than Expanded Racks for small missile slots.I use Atropos or Sabots. AI will use them, and Atropos is cheap, and Sabots are reliable. Annihilators is useful mostly as a chaff screen to block incoming fire, not actually killing ships. I rarely use Breach because AI rarely fires them. Also, I tend to use two missile mounts instead of three, mounting a gun in the center composite hardpoint, usually Light Mortar.
As for the rest, the Vanguard has two primary flaws : the primary ballistic weapons are all flux hungry. You can't fit them onto this ship and expect any longevity. Needlers are still king here, but with a brawler like the Vanguard, it's questionable whether the god gun can save it. It's more likely to miss in close quarters combat, as relative velocities increase fast, so it can waste its shot often and lose the deterrent value of the weapon. Conversely, all the other small ballistic weapons need massive arrays to be effective. There's just no winning here. Secondly, the point defense setup of the ship doesn't genuinely work. When fielding this ship, I have to fill three turrets with point defense weapons to provide effective protection. The two on the sides are needed for Salamanders, but they will commonly fail to swipe reapers or hammers fired at close range, so you need one on the nose, just like the Lasher.I use Railguns if I have them, or Light Autocannons if I do not. I save the needlers for phase ships.
Guns being flux hungry is not much of a problem for Vanguard because it does not have shields to overload from. Ships with no shields can get away with being beyond flux-neutral more than other ships that use shields. Vanguard can handle two railguns, and light mortar is cheap and efficient. It is not flux-neutral, but the railguns should be able to fire long enough before they stop firing for whatever reason aside from max flux (like no enemy in range).
Vanguards only defence is armor and its armor will be very much damaged in the process, which means half of the defense is permanently gone. The ship just cant survive, that's why it has rugged construction hullmod and specialization in failure is just a bad design.Vanguard should have the new dreadnought armor, it should have very high armor but less protection per armor. Currently the armor gets weared off too quickly, the damper field and damper field AI suck. Hopefully this would compensate them. It's useful for chasing away other frigates but that's not really what people expect from an elite frigate.With every buff, Vanguard can shrug of enough to kill a destroyer before it dies. The big problem is squeezing in Polarized Armor on officers when I have other skills I want on them (and did not get Officer Training). If Vanguard cannot get Polarized Armor, then it is not resilient enough. As is, Vanguard does not feel elite enough to justify its cost. It is good for a Lasher or Centurion tier frigate.
Sad thing though, is Berserker is even worse than Vanguard. Same 6 DP cost, but bigger and slower (because it is a destroyer), shoots mostly forward, and does not use missiles. I hoped it would be a smaller Rampart (which is legitimately good for a cheap zombie AI block), but Berserker is a piece of junk.
It seems Vanguard is only elite when compared to Berserker.
Fast firing weapons start petering out once you hit max cap. It's not fun playing a brawler and your vulcans are sputtering.Yes, but how long does it take to reach the cap, and how long does the ship fire continuously? For a ship without shields, only weapon fire raises flux. AI, kind of dumb as it is, often has breaks after a few seconds caused by having no target to shoot at.
Vanguards only defence is armor and its armor will be very much damaged in the process, which means half of the defense is permanently gone. The ship just cant survive, that's why it has rugged construction hullmod and specialization in failure is just a bad design.It does not need to survive, just kill more than ships than it is worth. Ships with shields often take damage too while killing their targets.
The failure of Vanguard is it is too expensive for what it does.100% this.
Zombie ships, those with Rugged Construction, ... and probably those who want d-mods (reduced penalties).Ehhhh. Yes and no.
I generally avoid Vanguards unless they already have a pile of d-mods on them, so they're at least within the realms of sanity for recovery cost (which doesn't happen often).I use them because (when I grind human bounties) I keep recovering pristine hulls from the enemy faster than I lose them (by scuttling them as soon as my Vanguard casualties get a d-mod during recovery screen), and Vanguards are not totally awful for combat.
Rugged is a cool and interesting hullmod, but it kinda half-conflicts with itself when it's on an expensive ship.Do not forget Rugged Construction reduces penalties from d-mods, like those that affect combat stats. That was what I mainly had it mind for those that want to run a d-mod fleet.
Maybe not a conflict as such, but rather lacks "synergy" where you'd expect it.
Rugged Const. allowing you to ignore part of the d-mod effects is both cool and good.The reduction for recovery costs is the #1 draw for using d-mods imo. Anything else is just a neat bonus.
Fast firing weapons start petering out once you hit max cap. It's not fun playing a brawler and your vulcans are sputtering.Yes, but how long does it take to reach the cap, and how long does the ship fire continuously? For a ship without shields, only weapon fire raises flux. AI, kind of dumb as it is, often has breaks after a few seconds caused by having no target to shoot at.
In my experience, AI Vanguards fire for a bit and build up flux to about a third or half a flux bar, loses its lock on target and stops firing (before flux maxes out), and by the time it gets a lock on target again, flux has cooled off to (near) zero.Vanguards only defence is armor and its armor will be very much damaged in the process, which means half of the defense is permanently gone. The ship just cant survive, that's why it has rugged construction hullmod and specialization in failure is just a bad design.It does not need to survive, just kill more than ships than it is worth. Ships with shields often take damage too while killing their targets.
The failure of Vanguard is it is too expensive for what it does. If I remember correctly, its price tag is about 30,000 to produce at Orbital Works, more than most frigates. Slash that down to 20,000 or less. (Most frigates are worth less than 20,000). Also, lower its DP cost down to 4 or 5. (It is probably a bit better than Lasher or Centurion against some targets.)
Rampart is another similar ship (no shields, has Rugged Construction). Worth 15 DP, but outfitted right, it will tank and punch like a 20+ DP ship and demolish enemy ships. It is a budget Dominator. More likely to die, but it is a zombie ship that can shrug off death easier than most ships.
Zombie ships, those with Rugged Construction, are nice for those who want pristine fleets (less likely to get d-mods) and probably those who want d-mods (reduced penalties).
There are some normal ships that can remove shields with Shield Shunt, bulk up on armor, and do alright, but the problem is they do not have Rugged Construction and will suffer from d-mods after recovery unless player has Hull Restoration. They are not zombie ships like Vanguard and Derelict drones.
Shielded ships can vent and they don't depend solely on armor. Perfection in failure is just wrong design. As for rampart it's surviviable as long distance support ship, gauss and hurricane missile. On short range against sizeable AI fleet it will be destoryed. Rest of the drones meant to be easy targets anyway. Also Vanguard can't even long distance kite like rampart for reasons.Shielded ships may or may not rely on armor, but they may not win flawlessly against a similar or greater opponent. The point was shielded ships can and will take damage too because the shields eventually drop from losing the flux war or AI stupidity. In addition, shielded ships that are high in flux (and controlled by AI) often attempt to flee, which really bites high-tech ships with horrible shot range.
it's ok rugged construction is getting a buff.
Shielded ships may take damage whereas shieldless ship certaily will and they will falter because of that especially a small ship like vanguardShielded ships can vent and they don't depend solely on armor. Perfection in failure is just wrong design. As for rampart it's surviviable as long distance support ship, gauss and hurricane missile. On short range against sizeable AI fleet it will be destoryed. Rest of the drones meant to be easy targets anyway. Also Vanguard can't even long distance kite like rampart for reasons.Shielded ships may or may not rely on armor, but they may not win flawlessly against a similar or greater opponent.
Shielded ships may take damage whereas shieldless ship certaily will and they will falter because of that especially a small ship like vanguard