At least 2 and Field Repairs have my interest, and Bulk Transport is okay.
I want my character to be more than a meathead who is a dog of the state (i.e., big dumb fighter trope). I want him to be an emperor who rules the galaxy (Emperor Palpatine, Ming the Merciless).
I agree that Industry is all over the place and is more of a miscellaneous tree. As a result, double dipping Industry is dumb.
Industrial Planning seems weak, only +1 to commodities to meet demand which is only good if I go no AI and no items.
(Thought of the day: should be able to use Metal for difficult recovers with Industry instead of Story Points.)That my friend would be an cool Industry skill if it was added to an existing one.
I assume that the reason why Salvaging gives no bonus to rare item rates is because it would basically become skill tax for exploration.
I see what you are getting at but at the same time isn't the carrier skill tax for using non gimped carriers? This new system seems like it's balanced around having the skills rather then the skills being a bonus.I am successfully using carriers (not many, admittedly), despite not having any carrier-specific skills.
I see what you are getting at but at the same time isn't the carrier skill tax for using non gimped carriers? This new system seems like it's balanced around having the skills rather then the skills being a bonus.I am successfully using carriers (not many, admittedly), despite not having any carrier-specific skills.
The problem with bulk transport is that most resources are nearly worthless (after tarrifs and sell price reduction due to high volume). 2k metals have the same base value at 150 heavy armaments, but will sell for even less than that because of the supply/demand mechanics. I would rather get the skill that gives me some extra heavy armaments and supplies when I find them, than the one that lets me bring extra metals/organics/food/ore home. Those resources are worth basically nothing and I rarely if ever have to throw out thing worth more than 30 credits/unit. I also spam colossus, and usually have 6-8 by mid game. I aim for 10k cargo by mid game, so bulk transport is already doing much less than the advertised value very early on in the game for me. I don't really see why I would not just get more colossus if I need more cargo space.
yeah bulk transport is kind of ridiculously good when you sit down and look at it. you could probably convert the logistics savings straight into having more salvage rigs and come out even to Salvaging, lol
SpoilerCurrently the skill tree alternates between "money/exploration longevity" and "combat" every other tier, then colonies, which is fine. It has a game defining skill in tier 4 (DC).
By tier:
I1L: convenience pick for not having to bring logistics ships (allows for longer expeditions as supply/fuel cost is lower, especially early game), and the smuggling pick to have lower sensor profile with larger capacity. I2R: medium strength salvage booster. It raises profits for salvage fleets, increases the amount of fuel and supplies received exploring to allow for staying out exploring longer, and the 20% post battle salvage lets less efficient fleets make more supplies than they spend. Both of these are fine, and salvage combines EXCELLENTLY with the Tier 3 skills for unlimited duration expeditions.
Tier 2: I don't undestand why these don't fit in the tree. They are about the physical repair and maintenance of your flagship, seems rather on point for industry to me. I2R is a solid bonus for all ships (including carriers) and especially good for phase ships. I2L is also quite good: -25% hull damage is just 33% more hitpoints, very nice on low tech ships, but 50% faster weapon and engine repairs can be the difference between life and death against an enemy with the disabling skill or emp.
These are both excellent skills.
Tier 3: They save significant amounts of money and allow for easier expeditions. A fleet with one of these and salvage can stay out exploring indefinitely with little trouble or planning. T3L is "stay out of the core forever, go anywhere, fight over and over" between the crew loss reductions, fuel use reductions, and + fuel salvage. No supply/CR hit on Eburn means the fleet can run OR chase better, and chip damage in the form of crew losses to a fleet that wants to never go to port is much reduced. T3R is "survey everything" because with this its easy to get almost any planet down to 5 supply cost.
Tier 4 is a bit of a weird one because it splits between money/quality of life (left) and combat (right).
T4L: Less D mods on recovery and free repairs are quite nice and really raises the mount of post battle loot (ships!). Free repairs and faster repairs saves a lot of money and allows for chain battling. Finally, D mod repair saves a huge amount of money (millions), and combined with less D mods on recovery means a player never needs to worry about losing a ship, including their unique triple S mod capital.
T4R: Derelict contingent is a thing thats been talked on a lot. Its the most powerful skill in the game right now bar none, enough to completely define a playstyle, and is probably changing. A 5 D mod tank ship with impact mitigation, damage control, and shield bypass just doesn't die, and it keeps shooting too. If 3 of those D mods are logistics penalties... well the skill tree handles that rather nicely and now thats a true monster of a ship!
T5: Colonies. More Colonies vs Better Colonies. Its a money skill again.
IMO if there's a weakness in the Industry skill its that money is easy for experienced players to make, but there are a lot of build paths that are viable.
For instance, a Derelict Contingent combat player is going to want at least C3 for armor, but C4 doesn't do anything (no shields), and C5 is painful to lose but not critical because DC is better still. Thats 2 points. Leadership 5 is colonies, so no value to a combat player, thats 3 points. To get DC, the player needs to give up either L4 (officers) or T5 (special mods/automated ships): a tough choice, but still worth it IMO. (And hey look, hard choices in a build! Neat.)
A player who wants to explore everything before diving into endgame (triple ping remnant) bounties just takes industry up to tier 4. Not much sacrifice, just be awesome at exploration. They can still explore triple ping systems if they have sensors too, because they can just dodge the patrols (going dark at 8/9 speed with -25% on top).
A hardcore combat character looking to kill endgame fleets either wants DC at 4, one of the 2cd tier skills (giving up either combat 5, tech 5, or leadership 4), or 0. And IMO its ok for a single combat path choice to not want industry at very endgame.I see what you are getting at but at the same time isn't the carrier skill tax for using non gimped carriers? This new system seems like it's balanced around having the skills rather then the skills being a bonus.I am successfully using carriers (not many, admittedly), despite not having any carrier-specific skills.
Yeah, carriers are absolutely fine as support ships with no skills to back them, and there are 2 or 3 carrier offense skills (depending on fighter or bomber) for officers even, if the player wants to get an officered carrier. A non-officered carrier can have built in ECCM + Missile Racks for fire support if it has the mounts, or it could have a nav relay and ECM module, etc. Not being fired at gives some nice leeway in terms of built ins.
In my playthrough where carriers are 2/3 of the fleet (~100 DP, 16 decks at the moment) and I took the carrier boosting skills and they are reduced but still quite impactful. I don't know about endgame yet, but up to midgame carrier centric fleets are fine. Considering that I'm piloting a carrier too and therefor wasting most of the player impact, I'd say they are doing more than fine. (I kind of want to switch to a destroyer or buy a cruiser, its just not very interesting playing as a carrier to me.)[close]
That sounds like a fun build. Emperor Palpatine is a bad guy to model an empire after if you know the details lol. His empire is broke as hell and it's why everyone is poorly equipped and trained. He's from the Zapp Brannigan method of leadership, send wave after wave of troops to their death until the kill bots reach their kill limit and shut down.I do not care how he got into power or maintained it (however briefly). All that mattered was he was the emperor with the big hammer.
T5: Colonies. More Colonies vs Better Colonies. Its a money skill again.Player chooses between two better colonies vs. two more colonies, one of which can be better with the third admin, with maybe two skills instead of one unless player gets Leadership 5. In effect, player chooses between one better colony vs. two more colonies. If I pick I5R, building another Heavy Industry on one of the two extra colonies can make up for the other's +50% production.
I assume that the reason why Salvaging gives no bonus to rare item rates is because it would basically become skill tax for exploration.
I5L main advantage over I5R is forgetting it via respec hurts less.
...I don't feel you've given any reasoning as to why it doesn't have synergy with itself. I1 (both, though L is early game and R is later game), I3 (both), and I4 L work very well together and stack towards allowing the player to explore for long times without having to go into port (the free fleet repairs from I4L save a ton of supplies). And actually, I2L is the same, especially with the elite skill, because less damage and less crew losses (and free repairs) are less trips back to the core needed. Thats potentially 4 of 5 skills all synergizing, which is pretty darn competitive. Now if you don't WANT the synergy of a sustainable fleet and don't value it, thats a fair point, but its not fair to say the tree doesn't have synergy.
I'll simply say that the Industry does not have synergy with itself. The skills are disjoined and unfocused. Every other tree is working, generally, towards a type of play.
T1 - I1L saves you on the cheap to maintain (edit: intrinsic_parity post above) available everywhere in wrecked fleets logistics ships, Militarized subsystem/Field Drive already covered the +1/+2, who cares about OP on support ships. I1R doesn't do anywhere near enough to justify a skill point.
T2 - It's not about lower fleet costs, it's about your personal ship. That's the problem. It's a purely combat thing. I'm not saying the tree can't improve personal combat but a skill tier solely improving combat recovery for only your personal ship has no place in the Industry tree. The skills are good, but they don't belong in this tree.I2L (damage control) does actually lower fleet costs by letting the player take lots of damage and then giving free repairs, but I agree that its less of a fleet cost reduction than the others. Gunnery and EWM are in tech, but those are personal combat skills, so I don't see what the problem is with having these here considering that they thematically match. Really its leadership that is the odd skill for having no flagship combat skills in it. I suspect we won't agree on this one as you really don't like it while I don't see it as a downside at all.
T3 - You can't get both without looping the tree. 8 points in. You can only get one early game, when it would actually matter to have both. That's not good design.
T4 - Field repairs is good. The other skill fits the tree oddly enough but is smack dab next to a Field Repairs which destroys it if you looped the tree for the second I3.
T5 - Not money, those skills are outliers. AIs = money, you running things yourself = wasted skill points. Not to mention both are completely useless till you have a colony.
This tree is a whole lot of nothing with a few good point sprinkled in. I feel like I2 personal ship abilities fit just as well in this tree as they would in Leadership, The 2 trees that have to do with command/management and logistics. Combat is for strictly personal bonuses, Tech is a mix of personal and fleet.
Based on your post I feel it's unlikely we will see eye to eye on this.
I don't want Industry to be that "Leveling build".To some extent this is unavoidable. Late game fights are necessarily difficult so combat skills always become more important in the end.
I don't feel you've given any reasoning as to why it doesn't have synergy with itself. I1 (both, though L is early game and R is later game), I3 (both), and I4 L work very well together and stack towards allowing the player to explore for long times without having to go into port (the free fleet repairs from I4L save a ton of supplies). And actually, I2L is the same, especially with the elite skill, because less damage and less crew losses (and free repairs) are less trips back to the core needed. Thats potentially 4 of 5 skills all synergizing, which is pretty darn competitive. Now if you don't WANT the synergy of a sustainable fleet and don't value it, thats a fair point, but its not fair to say the tree doesn't have synergy.
But why not get into fights while exploring? It sounds really limiting to not fight at all. Research stations, mining stations, probes, mothership, etc... all can have defenses; pirates are out there as free supply pinatas and bounty income sources (from commission at the very least), and they can spawn as an ambush after scanning stations or derelict ships; single and even double ping remnant systems have loot in them and they drop good hullmods, AI cores, and high tech weapons. All good reasons to fight while exploring.
Things that save supplies and crew, and that recover more supplies, help to stay out exploring after doing so.
But why not get into fights while exploring? It sounds really limiting to not fight at all. Research stations, mining stations, probes, mothership, etc... all can have defenses; pirates are out there as free supply pinatas and bounty income sources (from commission at the very least), and they can spawn as an ambush after scanning stations or derelict ships; single and even double ping remnant systems have loot in them and they drop good hullmods, AI cores, and high tech weapons. All good reasons to fight while exploring. Things that save supplies and crew, and that recover more supplies, help to stay out exploring after doing so.Salvaging and Reliability Engineering are super good for exploration. Former nets you more loot from combat, and I can come even on fights even without it, while the latter lets your ship (preferably a frigate, ideally a Tempest) deal with more enemies before running out of PPT, which lets you spend less on fights. To deal with pirates you need a bit more, but they indeed are great for loot.
At least Containment Procedures upgrade Emergency Burn so it doesn't burn CR.But it still burns fuel, which can be a big chunk depending on the fleet. I usually use it if I need to dive into a corona to reach a mission target or loot pinata (i.e., research station), or to cut through a neutron star and evade pulsar beams.
Starsector is a game, and respec is an acceptable break from reality that I am grateful for since I have less time to play games these days.I5L main advantage over I5R is forgetting it via respec hurts less.
I'm against the hard locks on respec. Feels like that needs to be handled differently.
Also I find the concept of specing and completely abandoning said spec later on for meta gaming like it's an MMO highly annoying. I don't want Industry to be that "Leveling build".
The problem i have with respecs is they tend to be used as crude fixes for design problems (skill systems in general often fall under this, with 'choice' being used as an excuse to not fix broken skills). A respec should be a way to undo a mistake or help you better explore the games systems by trying things. If it becomes a matter of 'do this and then respec out of it later' as a normal matter of the games meta then something is badly designed with the game. A system should be able to be optimally played with out ever using respecs if you know what build you want ahead of time.My biggest complaint about respec is I change flagships too much to fully enjoy the Combat tree. 4 and 5 varies depending on which flagship I pilot at any given moment. Just earlier about an hour ago, in my last fight, I started the fight with Harbinger, but took too much damage, and retreated it and swapped to the Paragon that was nearby mid-fight.
I'm surprised people complain that they want both I3 choices and not that they are fairly lame. At least Containment Procedures upgrade Emergency Burn so it doesn't burn CR.
That's it from me, I have no further interest in the industry skills.
Starsector is a game, and respec is an acceptable break from reality that I am grateful for since I have less time to play games these days.
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Please don't read this is hostility directed at you SCC or at Thaago, I've got very little happiness right now and this patch feels like a big letdown. If someone understands my rant and can put this in better/clearer terms please do.
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Repecing isn't what I'm against. I'm against the idea of a tree being it's for early game only to be abandon late game because it sucks late game. I'm saying no tree should be designed to work like that.Ah, okay. I1R feels very guilty on this! Up to 5 DP for big bonuses for a civilian that is militarized and gets one of the new hullmods. What a ripoff! Gemini needs to be reverted back to non-civilian status! I1L is a no-brainer if I want Industry 2+.
I fully support respecing.
SIX... BAYS! What a ripoff! And it competes with one of the better skills in Leadership, Crew Training.To be fair, that skill gives WAY more of a bonus than the old leadership skill at 6 bays. I think the old skill was 15% fleet wide and the new one gives 50% at 6 bays, 30% at 10 bays, 15% at 20 bays, so as long as you're using less than 20 bays, it's better than old skill.
These people shouldn't be telling anyone if this build works.I'm gonna tell you what Industry should get. Safety Procedures. Roll CP and ME into one (though rip emergency burn's no CR burn and give it to Safety Procedures). Now you choose between "boring" logistical efficiency and risky, storm-riding, star-diving, d-mod-mitigating Safety Procedures. That was a good skill.
So it's a side grade tree for people to pick a couple of things out of and pretend like the tree as a whole works like it did before for everyone. While at the same time never picking the tree as a whole because it doesn't work...Hey! I don't pretend Industry works! I pretend it doesn't exist past tier 2. Especially Derelict Contingent, the strongest combat skill in the game, heh.
I could play a scavenger before, with no commission, stay neutral and explore to my hearts content and make a decent profit. I can't now. Because everything that made it work got stripped out. Story points finally make ships like the Venture a viable mid game ship for Scavengers and the entire tree gets gutted of everything that made it work.That's a paddlin'. I spent first half of my game bounty hunting and doing academy missions (without the stipend, as I disabled it in the settings, and I didn't take any commission, as I felt no need for it) until cycle 213, where I got what I wanted and focused exclusively on exploring (You can easily see when my fleet composition stagnated (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/822063453837590528/831270169955139615/unknown.png) (peak credits is 3m, average fleet is 200 points (peak is 700 points when I was moving my stash)) and became 1 Fury, 1 Apogee, 2 Enforcers, 2 Omens, 2 Centurions, sometimes a Tempest or a Medusa).
This realization really makes me laugh, commissions are now a requirement to make it work. I lost playstyle freedom and the tree is fine...
To be fair, that skill gives WAY more of a bonus than the old leadership skill at 6 bays. I think the old skill was 15% fleet wide and the new one gives 50% at 6 bays, 30% at 10 bays, 15% at 20 bays, so as long as you're using less than 20 bays, it's better than old skill.Which is offset by greatly weakened Expanded Deck Crew, which carriers still need. If Deck Crew has been hit hard, then player needs the big bonus from the skill.
Too long to quoteTl;dr the latest iteration of skill system has limited player choices and playstyles big times.
Ah, okay. I1R feels very guilty on this! Up to 5 DP for big bonuses for a civilian that is militarized and gets one of the new hullmods. What a ripoff!
I frankly fail to see where this change from "Skills that improved salvage ability and resilience" to "random stuff" is supposedly coming from.
It lost the reduced CR loss to hyperspace storms, and the bonus rare resource finds completely, I can see that. It also lost the dmod maintenance cost reduction stuff, and the dmod impact reduction stuff, but gained overall maintenance cost reduction and two very powerful tools for handling dmods. The other stuff, like extra resources from salvage, extra fuel, extra ship recovery, etc. is all there. It even gained aspects of other trees that I think fit better with it than their old homes, like fuel usage reduction from tech, and the guaranteed recoverability feature of leadership, in an admittedly roundabout way.
Could you define a scavenger type character for us? What do they do, how do they make money, how do they spend their time, etc? You seem to have a way of doing it thats very different than what I do, so I'm curious.
"I don't wanna pay skill tax for exploring" I hear in here, lol, well grats the the rare rates are lower for everyone. But those people don't need to feel bad about losing out.Then Alex should increase how many rare, unique, irreplaceable, impossible to get otherwise items there are to find, if you feel there are too few now. Bounties and AI cores can be farmed, but the number of colony items is determined at the start of the game and salvage increasing rare item drops would be the only thing influencing that number.
Scavengers focus on survey/scanning missions, and exploration. The idea is to remain neutral, collect blueprints and acquire equipment. Combat is avoided except when blueprints/equipment is on the other side of it, risk adverse generally. Efficiency is everything. Hounds and Cerberus are perfect ships for this kind of build, shields don't matter. Cargo space is key and shielded inventory is a bonus to avoid random scan costing you AI cores when you do head back in stuffed.I was exploring with a fleet of what I mentioned previously for combat ships, plus 3 Colossuses, 2 Tarsuses, 1 Buffalo (P), 2 Phaetons, 1 Prometheus, 5 Shepherds and 1 Salvage Rig. All my combat ships had solar shields because goddamn storms, all my spreadsheet ships had insulated drives and efficiency overhaul or augmented drive field (I didn't want milsubs eating into my bonuses). My only Industry skills were Salvaging and Reliability Engineering, so no help from that. I surveyed only planets that had satellites in orbit, thus ruins.
Surveying Equipment, Efficiency Overhaul, Militarized Subsystems (for both speed and lower detection range), Augmented Drive Field, Insulated Engine Assembly and High Resolution Sensors are priorities on every ship that can fit them. Moving at max speed, seeing the enemy first, avoiding being seen.
Before this build only bled money, now it bleeds supplies/fuel and money. Ya you can cash out with amazing blueprints but without the amazing run times, like 1+ years between core visits, the loss of rare find rares making cash isn't like it was. I'm sure people will post anecdotal " I made 3 million in 1 scav run" but that's not common anymore. Rare tech is way more rare, as are good blueprints as are Pristine nanoforges (which threads have been made about).
"I don't wanna pay skill tax for exploring" I hear in here, lol, well grats the the rare rates are lower for everyone. But those people don't need to feel bad about losing out.Then Alex should increase how many rare, unique, irreplaceable, impossible to get otherwise items there are to find, if you feel there are too few now. Bounties and AI cores can be farmed, but the number of colony items is determined at the start of the game and salvage increasing rare item drops would be the only thing influencing that number.Scavengers focus on survey/scanning missions, and exploration. The idea is to remain neutral, collect blueprints and acquire equipment. Combat is avoided except when blueprints/equipment is on the other side of it, risk adverse generally. Efficiency is everything. Hounds and Cerberus are perfect ships for this kind of build, shields don't matter. Cargo space is key and shielded inventory is a bonus to avoid random scan costing you AI cores when you do head back in stuffed.I was exploring with a fleet of what I mentioned previously for combat ships, plus 3 Colossuses, 2 Tarsuses, 1 Buffalo (P), 2 Phaetons, 1 Prometheus, 5 Shepherds and 1 Salvage Rig. All my combat ships had solar shields because goddamn storms, all my spreadsheet ships had insulated drives and efficiency overhaul or augmented drive field (I didn't want milsubs eating into my bonuses). My only Industry skills were Salvaging and Reliability Engineering, so no help from that. I surveyed only planets that had satellites in orbit, thus ruins.
Surveying Equipment, Efficiency Overhaul, Militarized Subsystems (for both speed and lower detection range), Augmented Drive Field, Insulated Engine Assembly and High Resolution Sensors are priorities on every ship that can fit them. Moving at max speed, seeing the enemy first, avoiding being seen.
Before this build only bled money, now it bleeds supplies/fuel and money. Ya you can cash out with amazing blueprints but without the amazing run times, like 1+ years between core visits, the loss of rare find rares making cash isn't like it was. I'm sure people will post anecdotal " I made 3 million in 1 scav run" but that's not common anymore. Rare tech is way more rare, as are good blueprints as are Pristine nanoforges (which threads have been made about).
I wasn't combat averse and I fought all explorarium defences I found and any pirate, pather, scavenger Remnant that thought he was tough got his fleet salvaged. I didn't explore any red beacon systems yet, though, I plan on bringing the big guns for that. I'm not sneaky at all. Fuel I bought constantly, but supplies hovered around 500-ish and increased slowly over time to 1000-ish.
If you are having such difficulties with "pacifist" exploring, it seems that avoiding combat is now way worse, in comparison to even a modestly optimised fleet that isn't afraid of fighting.
Simple question, what build are you using to do that? Because I find it unlikely that heavy industry tree is involved in that success. Also are you using a commission?As mentioned previously - C LLLLL, L LLL, T LLLLL, I RR (and that one's just for Reliability Engineering). No commission, I even disabled the galatian stipend. I spent majority of my time bounty hunting and questing until 213, when I switched to exploration.
I wish solar shields was a more common blueprint. I never seem to have it on any play.Fighting Remnants without ECCM was pain... Thankfully I finally found it, after 14 cycles.
Simple question, what build are you using to do that? Because I find it unlikely that heavy industry tree is involved in that success. Also are you using a commission?As mentioned previously - C LLLLL, L LLL, T LLLLL, I RR (and that one's just for Reliability Engineering). No commission, I even disabled the galatian stipend. I spent majority of my time bounty hunting and questing until 213, when I switched to exploration.Story spoilersThe reward at the end of the academy questline is useful for exploration, but my exceptional bad luck meant it was completely useless in a half of the galactic rim. More precisely, the half I have been exploring first, so for 5-6 cycles it had nearly no impact, which is why I didn't mention it.[close]I wish solar shields was a more common blueprint. I never seem to have it on any play.Fighting Remnants without ECCM was pain... Thankfully I finally found it, after 14 cycles.
Sorry I missed the build earlier, teach me to try posting in a rush before heading to work lol. I need to find something that works for me now, I'll give that build a shot.I think the least invasive advice I can give you is to give a flagship Tempest a go and see how far can it carry you. It should perform pretty well, even if you don't change much else in your playstyle.
If you are doing it with the welfare disabled I must say that is in fact very impressive.