Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: rhinoabc on August 13, 2020, 03:46:37 PM

Title: Salamander
Post by: rhinoabc on August 13, 2020, 03:46:37 PM
The Salamander is the best missile in the game, you cannot change my mind.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: DubTre6 on August 13, 2020, 06:14:28 PM
The Salamander is the best missile in the game, you cannot change my mind.

Can't change the truth
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Daynen on August 16, 2020, 08:30:47 AM
The eternal engine killer always trumps the one-pump chumps.

And it can't blow up your own fleet.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Igncom1 on August 16, 2020, 08:34:29 AM
It does actually do damage, just small amount of frag, so en masse it can kill things.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: DancingMonkey on August 16, 2020, 09:05:51 AM
All med slots = Pillums

all small slots = salamanders, for more missiles

all fighters = broadswords for those decoy flares, so the missiles hit more

very fun fleet set up if you like to see tons of fights and missiles flying everywhere.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Null Ganymede on August 16, 2020, 09:07:19 AM
Salamanders are the death of overgunned SO mobility-flagships. You skimp on point defense to mount more guns, chainsaw your way through pirate fleet after pirate fleet, and then *one* unlucky loadout later...

*pop*
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Mondaymonkey on August 16, 2020, 09:18:30 AM
Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4
[close]
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Megas on August 16, 2020, 10:09:06 AM
Good early, but not enough oomph late in the game.  Alright for Doom in duels; helps herd ships into mines.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: rhinoabc on August 16, 2020, 11:48:33 AM
Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4
[close]
Heathen.
Good early, but not enough oomph late in the game.  Alright for Doom in duels; helps herd ships into mines.
Damage doesn't matter if they're dead in the water with their guns disabled.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Mondaymonkey on August 16, 2020, 12:17:47 PM
Heathen.
So be it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX1TbhGIBdc
[close]
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: intrinsic_parity on August 16, 2020, 12:52:27 PM
'laughs in omni shield'
also
'laughs in point defense'

Seriously, the effect of salamanders hitting is great, but you only get it if your opponent is isolated and doesn't have much PD or omni shields. It's pretty easy to make them completely irrelevant with a little effort in the load out stage. In a fleet context salamanders tend to end up flying into the shields/PD of other ships because they target ships in the middle of the battle line. And they cost 6 OP, which is a lot. Definitely plenty of downsides.

Also, they just fill a very different role than other missiles, so it doesn't even make sense to compare IMO.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Megas on August 16, 2020, 01:05:06 PM
Damage doesn't matter if they're dead in the water with their guns disabled.

'laughs in omni shield'
also
'laughs in point defense'

Seriously, the effect of salamanders hitting is great, but you only get it if your opponent is isolated and doesn't have much PD or omni shields. It's pretty easy to make them completely irrelevant with a little effort in the load out stage. In a fleet context salamanders tend to end up flying into the shields/PD of other ships because they target ships in the middle of the battle line. And they cost 6 OP, which is a lot. Definitely plenty of downsides.

Also, they just fill a very different role than other missiles, so it doesn't even make sense to compare IMO.
intrinsic_parity explains why Salamanders are not so great late in the game.  That has been my experience as well.  In a big fleet free-for-all, Salamanders tend to get picked off easily.  Even if they hit something in a big death ball, the target's allies often cover for it.  That said, I notice Dooms and their prey tend to break off from the main melee and Salamanders become more useful in those isolated duels.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: DubTre6 on August 17, 2020, 11:44:15 AM
Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4
[close]

 ;D Totally joking...
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: DubTre6 on August 17, 2020, 11:46:09 AM
'laughs in omni shield'
also
'laughs in point defense'

Seriously, the effect of salamanders hitting is great, but you only get it if your opponent is isolated and doesn't have much PD or omni shields. It's pretty easy to make them completely irrelevant with a little effort in the load out stage. In a fleet context salamanders tend to end up flying into the shields/PD of other ships because they target ships in the middle of the battle line. And they cost 6 OP, which is a lot. Definitely plenty of downsides.

Also, they just fill a very different role than other missiles, so it doesn't even make sense to compare IMO.

They cost 5 OP and aren't so easy to dodge when every single ship you field has them equipped 8)
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: DubTre6 on August 17, 2020, 11:46:41 AM
The eternal engine killer always trumps the one-pump chumps.

And it can't blow up your own fleet.

Chad Salamander vs Virgin Reaper
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Mondaymonkey on August 17, 2020, 11:56:44 AM
They cost 5 OP and aren't so easy to dodge when every single ship you field has them equipped

Well... true. But it's also true you do not need to dodge them like 90% cases, as most of the ship has decent PD capabilities or omni shield to effectively catch salamanders.

Also, they are not always do damage even if hit the target - some ships have no engines in a point they seek. That is mostly for modded ships, but even vanilla Paragon could be an example: loose a shield and observe how salamanders effectively destroy rear small mount, leaving engines intact.

Plus there are skills and hullmods to increase repair speed, nullifying salamander's effectiveness... So, yeah, 5 OP gamestart pirate-brawl option, nothing more.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: DubTre6 on August 17, 2020, 01:34:47 PM
They cost 5 OP and aren't so easy to dodge when every single ship you field has them equipped

Well... true. But it's also true you do not need to dodge them like 90% cases, as most of the ship has decent PD capabilities or omni shield to effectively catch salamanders.

Also, they are not always do damage even if hit the target - some ships have no engines in a point they seek. That is mostly for modded ships, but even vanilla Paragon could be an example: loose a shield and observe how salamanders effectively destroy rear small mount, leaving engines intact.

Plus there are skills and hullmods to increase repair speed, nullifying salamander's effectiveness... So, yeah, 5 OP gamestart pirate-brawl option, nothing more.

I totally agree, against player fleet, not very useful...Against AI fleet however, thats a different story.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Thaago on August 17, 2020, 04:48:17 PM
I think Salamanders are an ok pick for early-mid game on normal ships, where enemies are more likely to either be pirates with poor/no rear shielding and the battles are less dense.

Later game they are a good pick for fast missile rack ships. A Vigilance isn't exactly an S tier ship, but assigned to escort a larger ship it will do some damage and pump out a shocking number of Salamanders.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Igncom1 on August 18, 2020, 03:44:44 AM
They direct fire on space stations too!
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Serenitis on August 18, 2020, 04:32:41 AM
Salamanders can be effective even if they don't hit.

The AI is obsessively paranoid about heatseekers and will, in most cases, drop whatever it's doing to defend against them.
If it has an omni shield, that will be swung round or flickered to face the incoming missile.
If it has a fixed shield, it will try to turn the entire ship so the missile hits the shield.
In either case this has the potential to create an opening which can be exploited.

This has a more pronounced effect with smaller ships, simply because thay can maneuver/rotate quickly enough to "switch tasks" in a hurry. And ships with omni shields.
Large ships with fixed shields (eg: Onslaught) will try to turn, but are so slow it won't make any appreciable difference.

Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Igncom1 on August 18, 2020, 04:41:44 AM
Basically the same way the AI freaks out over fighters as well.
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Thaago on August 18, 2020, 08:55:38 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot about the omni shield behavior wrt Salamanders. They are especially effective against small Remnants (you know, the annoying ones), because of the narrow shield, paper hull, and reliance on mobility. Damned if they try and catch it, damned if they don't.

Condor with Talons + Salamander Pod is a good small remnant hunter!
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Mondaymonkey on August 18, 2020, 09:12:12 AM
They are especially effective against small Remnants

Hmm... Will try it!
Title: Re: Salamander
Post by: Megas on August 18, 2020, 10:49:14 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot about the omni shield behavior wrt Salamanders.
This was how three lance Odyssey (when it had overlapping turrets and High Energy Focus) could solo sim Paragon during the 0.8.x releases.  Approach unshielded Paragon (it raises shield at the front), fire salamanders at Paragon, wait until it drops shields and redeploy then at the back, then fire lances at Paragon at its undefended front.  Run far away until it drops shields altogether, repeat.