To minimize save scumming you gotta win. To not run out of supplies and fuel, you gotta win with as few ships as possible. Let's make a list of some fleet compositions that do so, and explain why that composition works.4
It would be nice to have a list of early and mid-game fleet compositions, not just capitals or "carriers lol".
I'll start with some vanilla ships that are still competitive in Nexerelin/modded play-throughs.
(Early-Game) SO FlagshipSpoiler
Safety Overrides gives you mobility and flux dominance versus everything you face early. Mobility lets you do silly things like use kinetic point defense weapons for DPS, like so:
(https://i.imgur.com/nViTpE4.png)
With points in the combat tree you can solo early 40k pirate bounties in a Lasher. This works best on ships with lots of guns or Accelerated Ammo Feeder, otherwise you can't kill much before CR runs out.[close]
(Mid-Game) Condor Missile MassacreSpoilerBasically, you're going for synergy and extreme point efficiency to make up for a re-purposed freighter's weakness.
- Condors are 2 fighter bays and 1 medium missile with Fast Racks, for 10 points. Mid-tech fighters do kinetic damage, Pilum LRMs do explosive, it's a match made in heaven.
- Frigates are 3% ECM each (with ECM mod) for ~5 points. ECM range reduction completely throws off the AI, making your ships more confident and the enemy less. Most importantly, 3 levels in the ECM skill also gives you the ECCM mod which brings us to...
- Salamanders. Without ECCM or skills they're annoying but unreliable, with either they're agile enough to get around shields and out-track PD. They have good synergy with fighter distractions, ensure LRM hits, and give your flagship easy targets to shoot.
So your carriers provide the kinetic and explosive damage. Your frigates provide ECM to keep the enemy AI off your carriers, while throwing Salamanders into the fighter + LRM swarm. The end result looks a lot like this: easy flanks on flamed out ships with missile and fighter support rolling in.
(https://i.imgur.com/t9lluWH.png)
The skill investment is quite low (3 points in ECM + probably extra officers since missile and fighter skills are amazing) so you've got plenty of room to branch out from the base composition.
Starting with a Hegemony commission in a Nexerelin playthrough, level 1 start, no exploration; here's what 6 months looks like.
(https://i.imgur.com/vqTjjeP.png)
The frigates are pretty interchangeable, as are any specialist ships you eventually pick up. The Condors are really the core of the fleet. (Probably need 2x as many of them, grew the frigates without buying more Condors.)[close]
So, what other fleets hit way above their weight class? (Ideally, with minimal player skill investment to allow for some customization.)
Beam spam fleets massively benefit from a couple eagles/falcons. These provide additional beam stacking with hard flux and he damage.
Also if you're really heavy on the beam idea you should consider a Sunder with an HIL. HIL is the second fastest armor stripping non-torpedo in the game*. If you want to get down to some hull to murder things you've fluxed locked an HIL Sunder will do the trick right fast. And it will do it to 1400 range while also providing kinetic pressureSpoiler(https://i.imgur.com/jQnzZwQ.png)[close]
Also if you're really heavy on the beam idea you should consider a Sunder with an HIL. HIL is the second fastest armor stripping non-torpedo in the game*. If you want to get down to some hull to murder things you've fluxed locked an HIL Sunder will do the trick right fast. And it will do it to 1400 range while also providing kinetic pressureSpoiler(https://i.imgur.com/jQnzZwQ.png)[close]
A classic, never get old. The only drawback is the AI is unable to fly it correctly
I always struggle with AI sunders. Far far too vulnerable in my opinion.
The Sunder really doesn’t need tachyon, autopulse, or plasma and really doesn’t do best with them. It’s failing is largly that players don’t protect them with orders, and that they do not stack ITU and advanced Optics.
Explorer runs (salvage rigs + skills) should get 'em from science stations and whatnot, along with a bunch of rare weaponry.
I've been running my current Hammerheads with two rail guns in the forward facing medium mounts and four light assault guns on the turrets.
She can't shoot down missiles this way, but the amount of dakka it brings at close range with the ammo feeder is impressive. Not too shabby at killing fighters with it either.
I find Sunders are quite effective in AI hands - as long as you are using a HIL/graviton loadout. Even without ITU/Optics it is effective enough (though of course they make it better). It wants steady/cautious officers (or no officers), vulcans in the ballistics, and no missiles to foul up its range calculations. If you have plentiful light needlers or railguns those do help, but they are both rare and they will make the AI close to 700/800 range instead of 1000. The OP savings from not having found ITU/optics can be put into hardened shields, auxiliary thrusters, or a hanger bay.
The AI is not competent with the plasma cannon or the autopulse on the Sunder (Especially not the autopulse! It will fire off the majority of the shots at max range, miss all of them due to target motion, and then be stuck with self-raised flux and poor dps). Tachyon lances are fun, but each costs more than the ship and is incredibly rare.
Under gunning is very fun, i'd reccormend it espically on Eagle cruisers and Falcon cruisers who can then fund the saved points elsewhere.If weapons were more common, I would do it more. Generally, my under-gunning, if I do not leave mounts empty, is generally replacing Graviton Beam with Tactical Laser, any heavy energy with Heavy Blaster, or medium missiles for 1 or 2 OP one-shots. Railguns in mediums would be nice, except they are in hot demand by ships who cannot mount medium ballistics but can use light ballistics. Thus, Hammerheads, Eagles, and the like get Arbalests instead of Railguns because other ships that want Railguns but cannot use Arbalest (like Medusa) get the Railguns.
I find Sunders are quite effective in AI hands - as long as you are using a HIL/graviton loadout. Even without ITU/Optics it is effective enough (though of course they make it better).
I generally do not use Converted Hangar on destroyers because the -75% penalty - and no Expanded Deck Crew - is too much of a penalty, not to mention that the destroyers do not have much OP.
After a bit of testing with Converted Hangars I kind of see why Megas considers them indispensable. D-ships lose a lot of stats, but they have full OP, and most (or all?) D-mods do not affect fighters. D-ships also cost less to deploy. => CH naturally stacks with clunker fleet approach.
It's also quite a powerful hullmod, considering that AI is not very good against fighters. Normally I consider Enforcer to be the weakest DE, but when you add CH it finally becomes decent match for the others. Why? => With most OP of all DEs, it is cheapest for Enforcer. And having 2 Flaks easily counters enemy CH even if they also had it.I find Sunders are quite effective in AI hands - as long as you are using a HIL/graviton loadout. Even without ITU/Optics it is effective enough (though of course they make it better).
I consider no-UI, no-ITU variants to be automatically unusable. Nearly same variant with ITU is almost guaranteed to slaughter them without a chance to fight back (same slow-ish speed, yet more range). With UI you could at least get a stalemate due to speed advantage (and charge in when enemy becomes vulnerable).
UI vs UI+ITU is also a better situation than none vs ITU - there is smaller approach window to be exploited which AI would often fail to exploit (it's not nearly as precise at range management as player).
Exception: Hyperion, since it's system allows to mostly ignore range and normal movement.
ITU, no-UI is also a kind of bet. If you can't get enough flux advantage during approach of faster and stronger enemy, you are done. Most notable case - being charged by Aurora (hard flux equipped).
- A Hammerhead needs to use all it's firepower under AAF in optimal manner or it's dead. Overall, it has easiest victory against Aurora amongst all DEs.
- Medusa can win if player controlled. But it's all about skimmer and finer piloting, and is not easy.
- Enforcer is dead unless it uses ridiculous variant like 4x Heavy Needlers, 1x Mauler to imitate Hammerhead. But such build is relatively useless outside this specific situation.
- Sunder is just dead - it's not effective enough against shield to repel Aurora and not fast enough to run.
Enhanced Optics is the one you’re looking for. UI is just going to get your dude closer to the enemy
Enhanced Optics is the one you’re looking for. UI is just going to get your dude closer to the enemy
No I meant Unstable Injector. Speed and range combination (vs enemy speed and range) is often deciding factor in combat, rather than just either of them separately. Which is why it makes sense to evaluate ITU vs UI.
Your missile spam setup is really inefficient you can almost certainly do it easier/better. Most small missiles when moving up to their "pod" version get about 4 times better. A Harpoon MRM launcher has 3 shots 1 at a time, a Pod has 12 shots, 4 at at time. 4 times the ammo, 4 times the volley.
The Salamander does not. The pod version launches 2 missiles at the same interval as the regular version. So a medium slot here doesn't give you any particular advantage. Rather you should be looking for getting the most of Small + medium x 2 for the lowest supply cost.
Brawlers are OK (2 for 4), Drams are similar (1 for 2), Hecates are good (2 for 3), Lashers are ok(2 for 4), Kites are Great(2 for 2). You could fit. You could fit 2.5 more salamanders per supply cost in your deployment by loading up on Kites! Vigilance is pretty good with the 2 for 5 plus a bonus.
Mercury Class Shuttles however, are king... with 3 universal slots for 2 supply/deployment. Granted they can't quite fit ECCM and ECM... but its still the top of the line. With Mercury Class Shuttles you could fit 15 Salamanders in the same space you're using for 4.
If you're willing to go up a class the Buffalo MK II is actually pretty efficient. At 5 Salamanders for 4 supply. It also has space for ECM and you can fit a tactical laser for rangefinding (and maybe some PD and other things so you don't get wrecked by Harpoons
I know you meant Unstable Injector. I was saying that it was not a good option. Speed AND range is what matters and you're giving up the more important of the two, putting yourself within Sabot and Hypervelocity range. The Speed is minimal at that point.
Making Talons 0 OP and giving them Swarmers on top of that immensely devalued all other fighters.
Speed is, in general, more advantageous than range. If you have more speed and less range, you can always leave the enemies weapon range, but if you have more range and less speed, you are betting that the extra damage you do while they close the range gap is enough to win the fight. In a 1v1 for ships of similar size, that range advantage is usually enough, but in a fleet context, you will often have to fight while at a flux disadvantage, in which case the extra flux you build up while they close the range gap may not be enough to win the flux war. Speed gives you control of the engagement and a way out, range just gives you a flux advantage.
I consider no-UI, no-ITU variants to be automatically unusable. ...
QuoteI consider no-UI, no-ITU variants to be automatically unusable. ...
Very much disagree. ITU is an automatic hullmod for all non-SO ships because it is deliberately overpowered and balanced by rarity. UI however is a judgement call and it depends on the rest of the fleet composition and expected enemies. Between the range and OP costs, UI sacrifices a lot of combat power for speed. Sometimes that trade is worth it, sometimes not.
Frigates almost always should have UI because, with a few exceptions, their only defense against fighters is speed.
Against early game fleets with frigate spam? UI on everything because the player's ships need to be able to avoid flanking by enemies.
Player has lots of fighter cover? No UI on destroyers - flanking/interception/harassment work are covered by other elements and they are free to become more dedicated gunships.
Fighting capitals/stations? Cruisers and Destroyers should not have UI because they are already faster, but the speed increase does not overcome the lost range in terms of approaching a target to firing range without being overloaded.
In the case of beam sunders, UI is almost always worse than UI because the base range is so long - the speed increase is not close to making up for the damage lost on approach. Same with HVD/Mauler Hammerheads to be honest. Railgun/Heavy mortar hammerheads do great with UI however.