Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dri on April 20, 2016, 01:43:07 PM

Title: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Dri on April 20, 2016, 01:43:07 PM
No mods.

I dunno about you guys but 95% of the time I lose a ship it is to missiles and torpedoes. Does this speak of missiles/torps being overpowered or is it simply the nature of burst damage being superior to sustained?
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 20, 2016, 01:49:50 PM
Space is unrealistic and all that, but in actual air and naval combat, missiles constitute a huge portion of casualties.  Nothing sinks a ship quite like a huge molten hole.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2016, 02:08:35 PM
Missiles are kill-stealers! Regular guns do all of the hard work, and then missiles come in and steal all the glory.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Sabaton on April 20, 2016, 02:17:34 PM
Pretty ironic isn't it? Since explosives suck in space due to the lack of a medium to send the shock wave through.

As for your question: burst damage is superior imo because it exploits mistakes better.

If a ship is venting, what is more likely to kill it quickly? Some hellbore shots or a couple of torpedoes?

Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Dri on April 20, 2016, 02:22:10 PM
Heh yeah, the number of times panic missile spam has gotten one of my frigates is too damn high!
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Sabaton on April 20, 2016, 02:30:48 PM
Heh yeah, the number of times panic missile spam has gotten one of my frigates is too damn high!

Ugh, don't remind me...
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Aeson on April 20, 2016, 05:09:04 PM
Pretty ironic isn't it? Since explosives suck in space due to the lack of a medium to send the shock wave through.
It is true that most of the force of an external explosion will be wasted in space. However, if an explosive weapon penetrates the armor prior to detonating, the story becomes rather different, as the ship's armor or hull will act to confine the rapidly-expanding gases generated by the explosion, concentrating the explosive force in a relatively small area; either a section of the ship's armor will have to give way to allow the explosive force to vent into space, or the ship's armor will help concentrate the explosion's power against the very things that the ship's armor is intended to protect (actually, it'll do that even if the armor gives way, but it'll do it more if the armor doesn't give way than if it does). Even with a ship designed so that there is a void space between the armored and primary hulls, if an explosion occurs in the void space you're still looking at a choice between compromising the armor or compromising the things that the armor was intended to protect - an explosion in a void space between the armored and primary hulls is mostly trapped in a relatively small space by the two hulls, concentrating its power. If the explosive is sufficiently powerful, one or the other hull must give way in order to allow the explosion's force to be expended; if the hull which gives way is the armored hull, then a section of the ship's armor will be peeled away, while if the primary hull gives way first then the ship's armor has failed to protect that which was intended to safeguard and may even have increased the amount of damage sustained. An explosion within the void space which is insufficiently powerful to cause either the armored or the primary hulls to fail may still compromise the armor if it is sufficiently powerful to damage the structural elements connecting the armored and primary hulls.

Also, given that all the base game HE weapons appear to use either contact detonators or delayed-action fuses with a very short delay, full or partial armor penetration prior to detonation is a realistic possibility.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: VuNut on April 20, 2016, 08:32:39 PM
[snip]

Judging by how armour reacts to explosive damage I'd expect that starship armour in SS is designed to absorb as much force from sub-surface explosions as possible, being quite 'soft' (which doubles up for absorbing raw kinetic energy nicely), while the actual hull is more rigidly designed to channel (if not reflect) explosive shock to the armour through the connecting structures. Highly destructive to armour, but understandable as the alternative is the blast going through the interior and wrecking crew and vital components.


On topic: all the bloody time. So much for overconfidence being a 'slow, insidious' killer.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: lemski07 on April 21, 2016, 05:09:51 AM
getting flaked. I lost track where I am. specially If Im on the uppermost part of the map when reinforcements drop. while using high flux weaponry.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Sabaton on April 21, 2016, 07:07:54 AM
Pretty ironic isn't it? Since explosives suck in space due to the lack of a medium to send the shock wave through.

Also, given that all the base game HE weapons appear to use either contact detonators or delayed-action fuses with a very short delay, full or partial armor penetration prior to detonation is a realistic possibility.

Wow, looks like someone has been doing their homework. Nice read.

Yes, there are many examples of how space combat wouldn't work.
Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFOuxAx-dkc
[close]

And also how it could work. (Babylon 5 apparently)

Personally, I hope we leave that behind. In the "lets stop blowing each other up but remain vigilant in case we're not alone" way.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Linnis on April 21, 2016, 09:40:25 AM
The last time I remember was when I was flying my wolf a salamander managed to hit me and i plummeted right into the side of a enemy onslaught. Yes, I did die to gun fire.

Then there was that one time I was flying around in a enforcer with 0 armor and only a little bit of hull, I took out most small escorts and was going to pull in all my reinforcements to deal with the two emy cruisers and a few frigates. Then a tac lance hit me in the 0.5 second I took to vent.


So yes, quite frequently.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on April 21, 2016, 11:53:03 AM
Missiles are kill-stealers! Regular guns do all of the hard work, and then missiles come in and steal all the glory.

This, basically. Missiles are generally used to secure kills that guns make possible. It's relatively rare for missiles alone to get a kill just because most of them are HE, so you need to knock down the shields and keep them down before you use them. The one missile that isn't HE, the Sabot, is still a finisher-style missile, it just finishes by causing massive overloads rather than destroying a ton of armor. If you can drive up the enemy's flux while keeping yours low, you don't have to worry about missiles unless they have an absolute ton of missiles and you're flying something with relatively low flux stats and little PD, like a frigate. That or you're flying a Dominator or an Onslaught and there's a frigate or destroyer with Reapers behind you, but I'd argue that's a case of missiles securing a kill that good positioning made possible.

Missile Spam vs Frigates is probably the worst-case scenario from a game design perspective. How do you make missiles that are both fast and damaging enough to pose a threat to destroyers, but don't just obliterate frigates when spammed in massive numbers? That's a very fine line to walk, especially when Missile Specialization comes into play. Personally I think that BRDY's Rage SRM is one of the best examples of a finisher missile that avoids this, and it does so by being extremely short ranged for a missile, extremely fast, and not very maneuverable compared to its speed. It doesn't benefit from Missile Specialization's boosts as much as other missiles do, because it's already fast enough to catch anything it wants to catch, and it has so little maneuverability and range that even after the skill boost it still can't turn much more than 15 degrees before it runs out of go juice. It's basically a missile that doesn't benefit from Missile Specialization, aside from the capstones.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: xenoargh on April 21, 2016, 01:39:10 PM
I practically never lose ships to missiles in Vanilla, even though Vanilla's PD is so weak.  I can't remember the last time I lost my personal flagship to missiles, tbh.  But then again, I never use flagships that are vulnerable to rear strikes and I rarely bother with Cruisers, let alone Battleships, because they aren't worth using for the DPs and Fuel costs.

Missiles are mainly just dangerous to AI ships that aren't outfitted right or have awkward turret arcs, which I don't use, either.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Thaago on April 21, 2016, 03:29:42 PM
My ships usually go down to gunfire. About 30% of deaths are missiles, and about half of that is after the guns have made an overload. I usually use wolves, Lashers with vulcans, Enforcers with dual flaks, and Eagles. The Wolves have their skip to dodge and good shields, so only rarely get ganked by missiles. Eagles are tough with strong shields - as long as the escorts take care of the daggers they are fine. The Lashers and Enforcers are practically missile proof, unless guns have disabled the PD or a lvl10 officer decides to unload.

That said, most of my KILLS are from missiles. Given that every destroyer has 4 Harpoons and ever frigate has 2, with expanded racks and often an officer...

I do think that if the enemy piled on like I do that I would have a lot more losses from them.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Dri on April 21, 2016, 07:28:06 PM
Indeed. My loses are almost entirely coming down to:

A) An enemy ship is about to kick the bucket and dumps all its harpoons onto one of my frigates (Dominator and Venture with Harpoon Pods are the worst).
B) One of my ships gets a tad too far forward and eats enemy gunfire and overloads - this cues all enemy ships far and wide to unload their Harpoons.
C) Missile Spec enemy officer with Reapers legit nails one of my ships (4 Typhoon Launcher Onslaught... gawd damn!).

Damn the torpedoes and the harpoons!
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Silver Silence on April 21, 2016, 09:44:24 PM
I tend to use missiles that regenerate ammo and pretty much leave out non-regenerating missiles entirely. I dislike having to back down from fights to do nothing more than reload missiles and incur a second CR hit for doing so and given that I also like the large protracted engagements with ships on very high CR timers, I feel that it'd be better just using the OP on regenerating missiles that last in those sustained fights or no missiles at all and use the spare OP for heavier weapons, flux or hull mods. On the topic of losing ships to missiles though, does it still count if I get nickel and dimed to death by light gunfire (fighters with LMGs or similar weapons or that one lasher on your butt) after copping several torpedoes to the face during an overload?
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Sabaton on April 22, 2016, 02:17:17 AM
Does this speak of missiles/torps being overpowered or is it simply the nature of burst damage being superior to sustained?



And to answer the question in the topic title, to my eternal shame I had a Medusa (not one I was piloting, but still though) killed by a pirate Mudskipper yesterday on my current level 51 character.

Wow, how can something so sad be so funny? Even if the AI was piloting it, how can it happen?  ???
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: Voyager I on April 28, 2016, 10:00:21 PM
Does this speak of missiles/torps being overpowered or is it simply the nature of burst damage being superior to sustained?



And to answer the question in the topic title, to my eternal shame I had a Medusa (not one I was piloting, but still though) killed by a pirate Mudskipper yesterday on my current level 51 character.

Wow, how can something so sad be so funny? Even if the AI was piloting it, how can it happen?  ???

Mudskippers are terrible joke ships, but the punchline is the big *** hole they will put in something if you totally write them off.  If the player was level 51 the Mudskipper might have had a credible officer in it.  AI ships don't seem to account for officer bonuses in their threat assessments, so they will sometimes set themselves up to get zonked in avoidable situations by underestimating how much damage an incoming shot would do / how far away they could be hit from / how quickly the projectile would travel.

I'm also assuming the Mudskipper snuck in the final hit on a crippled Medusa.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: RandomnessInc on May 29, 2016, 08:27:54 PM
well missiles are irrelevant when you're in a nevermore
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: borgrel on May 30, 2016, 05:06:07 AM
my personal ship is a scarab with 2 antimatter blasters and 2 ir pulse lasers, safety override, hardened subsystems, lots of vents and basically nothing else.

it only has 90s deploy time but i manage to nuke 6-10 ships in that time including cruisers if they separate themselves too much or if their reinforcements dont arrive in time after i've nailed the 4 frigates crowded around it.

thankfully time slow allows me to dodge most torpedoes that are a credible threat and the enemy almost always unloads them due to panic fire when 2 anti matter pulses slam into their side. (the only exception seems to be sabots)

i almost always flash out due to gunfire when a trio of sabots overloads my shields just as time slow wears out (i HATE archers :P)
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: LordDavenport on June 11, 2016, 06:50:39 AM
Currently I am playing with a lot of mods on, and as part of the knights templar faction. My Paladin has gone down to gunfire a couple times... generally when I misjudge another capital ship. Usually though it dies to a constant barrage of Mayorate harpoons. I have a victory pretty much covered in LRPD lasers that I bring along against large mayorate forces... just so my paladin can vent under its coverage.

I have also had my paladin blown up by some bastard with a reaper I didn't see hitting me as I vent. Takes 3-4 but it has happened. Sometimes get away and damage control my way back to 75%.

In my pursuit sloop though(a overarmed wolf with augmented engines), I have died to gunfire a few times. The build is meant to be able to catch and kill unarmed shuttles as they run for it. Best recent death with it was from tapping my own Ravana after a pursuit that turned into an engagement.
Title: Re: When was the last time you lost a ship to actual gunfire?
Post by: King Alfonzo on June 16, 2016, 10:33:36 PM
(Rather belated due to Security block)

Missile Spam vs Frigates is probably the worst-case scenario from a game design perspective. How do you make missiles that are both fast and damaging enough to pose a threat to destroyers, but don't just obliterate frigates when spammed in massive numbers?

...possible idea - HE damage as a flat value (200 or so) + % bonus for HE + a percentage of the total hull. So if you hit a frigate you're going to cause as much damage as if you'd hit a bigger ship. The biggest downside is for big chunky ships you could take them down with the same number of missiles as a frigate, but you could then simply change that % bonus to be size dependant. This, however would probably be too complex to implement. Or alternatively, have HE damage do less damage as a percentage to smaller targets...?


On topic - anyone noticed how frag weapons actually become horribly dangerous in late-battle situations? I have lost too many Nevermores (Four) and Sunders (eight) due to massed Vulcans, Shredders and Flak cannons (and, admittedly off-topic, grapeshot) when my armour's low and I've gone in for a finisher.