Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Excalibur Bane on November 15, 2016, 04:25:36 PM
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I'm sorry, but after this intolerable delay between versions, I feel I must post about it.
I've long been a silent supporter of Alex and his endeavors but this goes way, way beyond simple "I'm a one man army, be patient" non sense and is starting to look more and more like another cash grab, from a lazy indie developer who instead of properly supporting his game, relies on the modding community to do it for him. The good folks doing the modding here are the ones that should be paid, not Fractal, that's for bloody sure. They do far more for the game then Fractal does.
This is just unacceptable. I thought Star Citizen was horrible. This takes the cake for being in the pipe so long, that the hype train has just blown by it with little fan fare. To make matters worse, Fractal refuses to accept help or hire any additional programmers to speed things along, or for that matter move this whole project on to the Steam Early Access program, instead of sitting rotting on some obscure website that scarcely has any substantial traffic. It's a small wonder they do get any money out of people, given how little thought or effort is put into marketing this game. It's atrocious really. It's one thing to develop a game, it's an entirely different thing to just rely on word of mouth, and make a half assed attempt at self publishing. Please, hire some PR, you guys stink at this, truly.
Feel free to burn me at the stake or delete the post, it makes little difference. My words will not sway any opinions, I am just giving my own. Maybe that opinion is shared by others, maybe it is not. Time will tell, but I simply do not see this project going anywhere at this point. It's been in development for years and years. In fact, it's somewhat of a reminder of what happens when you sit on a game, trying to get every tiny little detail fixed. It tends to bomb, pretty hard. Battlecruiser 3000AD would be a good comparison, along with Derek Smart. Ugh. Hopefully the game doesn't fall on it's face, truly, as I enjoy the current version quite a bit but I am not one of these people that mods, as I believe a vanilla game should be (at this point, after years) somewhat complete or at least have some replay value, which frankly it really doesn't. We've had nothing since last February.
If I were Fractal, at this point, I would release what is there and done and move on to the next version. Trying to jam everything and the kitchen sink into the next build is counter productive frankly. Meanwhile, the burden falls upon the modding community to fill in the massive gap between these releases and try to keep people interested. I applaud them for that, but I think that is asking too much of people who are working for free and on their own time.
Ah, well. We shall see, sooner or later, how this story ends. Fortunately, I got this gifted to me by a friend. So, succeed or fail, it really isn't any skin off my back.
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It's been like this for many years now, but I don't blame you for feeling that way. Admittedly I just sort of forget about this game until something or something tells me that something has just happened, like a blog post or patch notes.
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None of us particularly like the wait between versions, but a bunch of what you say is just... weird. And, imo, misses the point of indie game development: Alex is his own boss and doesn't need to constantly pump out crap products to make management happy.
... is starting to look more and more like another cash grab, from a lazy indie developer who instead of properly supporting his game, relies on the modding community to do it for him. ...
Its a $15 alpha ($10 when I got it). The preorder page says:
What you get:
Early access to the game, starting with alpha builds – available now!
Discounted price
The full version, when it is finished
You help support the development of Starsector
Aaaand thats what we got. There are no (broken) promises for a release date, simply that we would get the alpha, their updates, and the full version when its done. There's no 'backer level reward' bullshittery that you find on kickstarter. People pledged THOUSANDS of dollars each on Star Citizen for a project that made promises and broke them - thats a cash grab.
The modding community here does very nice things, but to say that they are the ones supporting the game instead of Alex is absurd.
To make matters worse, Fractal refuses to accept help or hire any additional programmers to speed things along, or for that matter move this whole project on to the Steam Early Access program, instead of sitting rotting on some obscure website that scarcely has any substantial traffic. It's a small wonder they do get any money out of people, given how little thought or effort is put into marketing this game. It's atrocious really. It's one thing to develop a game, it's an entirely different thing to just rely on word of mouth, and make a half assed attempt at self publishing. Please, hire some PR, you guys stink at this, truly.
You are missing the point entirely. If Alex had said "Release date in January 2016!" when selling the game, then yes, it would be a problem that he hasn't expanded to meet that deadline. But Alex doesn't have a deadline - its ready when its ready, and if he is making ends meet to his satisfaction, what benefit is there in being on early access or hiring a PR firm? Absolutely none. If anything, marketing would have both a negative impact on final sales and be a waste of developer time and money.
Modern games have a horrible habit of advertising like crazy, bloating up on staff, then collapsing with a useless product. Starsector isn't doing that, and I don't see that as a problem.
I simply do not see this project going anywhere at this point
Then you are not paying any attention. I agree with you that progress is slow, but every blog post and new version has a significant number of new features, not just refinements on old ones. And those new features are advancing the game into new areas.
If I were Fractal, at this point, I would release what is there and done and move on to the next version. Trying to jam everything and the kitchen sink into the next build is counter productive frankly.
It saves time overall while allowing each build to be stable, bug free, and have every system in it work with every other system, no loose ends. Which is what, in part, allows for the modding community to flourish.
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Alex you're doing a wonderful job. Don't change a thing
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I, agree with Thaago on this Bane. The Modders aren't doing Alex's job or what he has in mind, they're doing their own thing. You frankly have no grounds to complain on what has been given to you for the price you paid. I paid 15 when I found this game, I found it while searching for other space-games similar to Escape Velocity frankly. I played NAEV, wanted to try some other games like it. Looked it up, found SS, bought it around 0.56 Begun modding it in .65.
During which it's been a small Holiday for me each time an update has come out, so really I suppose it all boils down to how you react to waiting and the reward of the wait. The Marshmallow experiment you could say.
So, while i adimt, I don't particularly ENJOY waiting- I'm chomping the bit for this newest update honestly~!!! -I don't see what'd voicing an opinion on how slow things would do. If it's simply to vent, fine, but as a legitimate complaint? I feel that's unjust. The game has changed quite a lot in between the years, and it's development may've started in high-school as a dream and gone from there. And it takes quiet a while as a small team to do this. It's 4 people dude, give'em a break, most if not all have other Gigs/Jobs/things to do, so... As with the modders, I'm pretty sure they're not just doing this all the time.
Really if you want to complain, look at Dwarf-fortress! That thing was gone for, what? Two years?!
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Looooong time lurker (purchased in 2011) just checked in to see how things are going and I wanted to break cover here to say I am unbelievably happy with the development process.
Yes, it's slow, but the quality is fantastic. Even better; the blog posts, whilst somewhat infrequent, are well thought out and presented enough that I don't have any fears that quality's going to drop.
There's more good games than spare time for me already, and there's no shortage of people pumping out rushed, badly designed games to fill the void were that not the case. But a game this unique and this well made and designed? That's a rarity and a real gem, I'm more than happy to wait and savour the rest of the menu whilst this one slow-cooks. It also helps that the early access appetisers are worth the price alone, I bought the game as-is when it more or less a slower, deeper, arcade space shooter with gorgeous sprites, and absolutely felt it was worth the cost. That Alex turned out capable of consistently building on that great start over time was only a very pleasant surprise.
So yeah, you do you Alex, you rock and Starsector's turning out flipping awesome.
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I can certainly understand how "lack of updates" might look like "lack of progress", but that's definitely not the case. If anything, it's been going better-than-average in the "progress" department, because a lot of things are finally starting to come together.
It's 4 people dude, give'em a break, most if not all have other Gigs/Jobs/things to do, so... As with the modders, I'm pretty sure they're not just doing this all the time.
I'm full-time on this; David and Stian are part-time. Ivaylo's not actively involved at the moment.
(I will say, reading anything regarding "cash grab" and "lazy developer" is bitterly amusing when I consider how much I'm in the hole compared to just getting a regular programming job. To put things in perspective, I'm working off savings - with income from preorders helping to offset the drain, but not entirely - as opposed to doing more responsible things like saving for (eventual) retirement. Not complaining by any means, though, it's a choice I made and I'm happy with it.
But, yeah, if one finds oneself thinking an indie developer is making a "cash grab", this really just isn't the industry for it. I'm not saying it never happens, but 99.9% of the time it's not going to be that. If I simply wanted to grab some cash, a regular job would be so much more time-efficient.)
Looooong time lurker (purchased in 2011) just checked in to see how things are going and I wanted to break cover here to say I am unbelievably happy with the development process.
Whoa, that's right at the start of things :) Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your kind words!
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I can certainly understand how "lack of updates" might look like "lack of progress", but that's definitely not the case. If anything, it's been going better-than-average in the "progress" department, because a lot of things are finally starting to come together.
!SNIP!
I'm full-time on this; David and Stian are part-time. Ivaylo's not actively involved at the moment.
(I will say, reading anything regarding "cash grab" and "lazy developer" is bitterly amusing when I consider how much I'm in the hole compared to just getting a regular programming job. To put things in perspective, I'm working off savings - with income from preorders helping to offset the drain, but not entirely - as opposed to doing more responsible things like saving for (eventual) retirement. Not complaining by any means, though, it's a choice I made and I'm happy with it.
But, yeah, if one finds oneself thinking an indie developer is making a "cash grab", this really just isn't the industry for it. I'm not saying it never happens, but 99.9% of the time it's not going to be that. If I simply wanted to grab some cash, a regular job would be so much more time-efficient.)
Looooong time lurker (purchased in 2011) just checked in to see how things are going and I wanted to break cover here to say I am unbelievably happy with the development process.
Whoa, that's right at the start of things :) Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your kind words!
Well, I learned something today. Thank you Alex. :)
Also, Welcome to the light lurker!
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None of us particularly like the wait between versions, but a bunch of what you say is just... weird. And, imo, misses the point of indie game development: Alex is his own boss and doesn't need to constantly pump out crap products to make management happy.
This much is true, he is his own boss, but if intends to do something meaningful in the game industry, he's gonna have to step up his game quite a bit. And yes, that means pumping out quality products, or is this simply a hobby for him? I have no idea, I guess I'll have to ask if he has a full time job. It sure as hell can't be working on this game all day long, or we would have seen some kind of results since last February. He doesn't have to make his customer base happy either, but generally it's a good idea if he wishes his product to be something more then the butt end of another internet meme.
snip
Aaaand thats what we got. There are no (broken) promises for a release date, simply that we would get the alpha, their updates, and the full version when its done. There's no 'backer level reward' bullshittery that you find on kickstarter. People pledged THOUSANDS of dollars each on Star Citizen for a project that made promises and broke them - thats a cash grab.
The modding community here does very nice things, but to say that they are the ones supporting the game instead of Alex is absurd.
Is it? Last I checked, the only thing keeping this little project alive, is the modders. Period. He includes the bare bones, everything else is practically done by the modders. In fact, to say that Fractal or Alex or whoever runs the show, are the ones supporting this game is absolutely insane. One has but to compare the amount of content added by modders and the amount of content added by Fractal to prove my point. It's really quite simple.
You are missing the point entirely. If Alex had said "Release date in January 2016!" when selling the game, then yes, it would be a problem that he hasn't expanded to meet that deadline. But Alex doesn't have a deadline - its ready when its ready, and if he is making ends meet to his satisfaction, what benefit is there in being on early access or hiring a PR firm? Absolutely none. If anything, marketing would have both a negative impact on final sales and be a waste of developer time and money.
Modern games have a horrible habit of advertising like crazy, bloating up on staff, then collapsing with a useless product. Starsector isn't doing that, and I don't see that as a problem.
Then your clearly not paying attention or have no idea what marketing does, hard to say. At any rate, all games need proper marketing because eventually, if these little indie games are successful and become all grown up and join the real games, they will actually have more then what? 200 fans? Something like that is the peak of the forum I think. I find that depressing at best, downright tragic at worst considering the latent potential of this game to be something far greater then it is now, and in an acceptable amount of time at that.
Then you are not paying any attention. I agree with you that progress is slow, but every blog post and new version has a significant number of new features, not just refinements on old ones. And those new features are advancing the game into new areas.
A significant number? Come now, don't go overboard. Yeah, sometimes progress is good. At least it was for awhile. This latest update is just yet another nail in the coffin that was the potential of a very good game. So unless he's secretly planning to roll out version 1.0 next February, I don't see the game "advancing into new areas". It's certainly not doing anything that hasn't already been done, and done well at that.
It saves time overall while allowing each build to be stable, bug free, and have every system in it work with every other system, no loose ends. Which is what, in part, allows for the modding community to flourish.
Yeah, you make my point for me there. The modding community is flourishing, and that is the only thing keeping this game remotely interesting. And that right there, is terrible. You need mods for this game, or it's utterly dead boring in vanilla form. No content, no substance and no replayability really. Say what you will, finished or unfinished a game should never require mods to be a decent experience, and this game does.
Yes, it took me a good half hour to get through the quotes and unquotes, so thank you for that. Love it.
Finally, the reason this game is not on Steam? The Steam community in general would tear this game such a new one with negative reviews that it would be buried along with Star Nomad 2, Space Rangers 2, etc, etc. Basically all the top down 2D space exploration, combat, trade, yada, yada games. I would pay real money to see this posted on Steam in it's current form and let almost an entire year go by with no version updates.
Time will tell though, as to whether it succeeds or fails. I used to have a stake in it, but I have long given up on that. I've certainly dumped money on worst causes in my 27 years of PC gaming.
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Hah! Every year one of these posts come up, hell, I made one of'em myself a few years ago. In the end, you just gotta accept that it'll take the better part of a year for each major patch—it always ends up seeming like it was worth the wait, though.
But yeah, I feel ya—the wait can be damn brutal and it was even worse in the past due to Alex and Co. going months in between blog posts too. Thankfully, we now seem to be getting almost one blog post per month.
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I'll agree with Dri here, people tend to bring this up every once in a while. Major patches are usually 6-8 months apart, with a hotfix in the next week to month, but from the looksies that we've gotten into the next patch, procedural generation is coming - which, from a coding perspective and a game mechanics perspective, is a helluva lot of work to get done, and even more to get it right, so that's probably why it's taking extra-long for this update to roll out.
Blog posts are nice, and I have noticed they're getting more frequent since the summer. Hence why I'm here now, things are starting up again, the cobwebs are getting moved, and the Quartermaster remembers his place.
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I came back after 8 months to read this, nice. a sign things are going smoothly!
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the game was like 15bux
i"ve put hundreds of hours into it
it paid itself off long before even .6 was out, honestly
anything further is gravy
what's the alternative? pay 60$ for an eight hour long on-rails shooter with no depth, character or staying power?
if you don't want to play the current version, play something else while you wait.
if the only vidya you play is starjourneyer you're doing it wrong
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Hah! Every year one of these posts come up, hell, I made one of'em myself a few years ago. In the end, you just gotta accept that it'll take the better part of a year for each major patch—it always ends up seeming like it was worth the wait, though.
But yeah, I feel ya—the wait can be damn brutal and it was even worse in the past due to Alex and Co. going months in between blog posts too. Thankfully, we now seem to be getting almost one blog post per month.
That's pretty much my stance. Watch and wait, with some mild amusement. Still, my mood was foul enough today to post my disgruntled status. It's not the lack of updates that bothers me, but rather what this game could be with proper support behind it. You see, I come from a very different generation where we played games that were the stuff of legend. Star Control 2 in particular is what this game reminds me most of. The elements are a bit different, but in some regards it is the same. I spent countless hours pouring over a paper map of the known galaxy drawing out territories by hand, mapping quasi space portals and noting systems with planets of high mineral or biological content, so I could return later and go nuts harvesting. I could say the same thing about Starflight and it's sequel. And they all fit on a 5 1/4 floppy or two or three. I think three for Star Control 2.
Anyway, if Alex and crew manage to reproduce this same legendary combo of game mechanics and combine it into something really, really epic. It wil not be an indie game for very long. It will be what Minecraft is now to the space and sci-fi community. Something truly unique. And if you think I'm bashing Alex, Fractal or Starsector. Your dead wrong. I'm just seeing wasted potential, and that's the sort of thing that bothers me. Kinda OCD that way, i suppose. Starting to get old and a wee bit set in my ways :D
I'm done with this for now. Alex has read it, replied and that is pretty much that. All the best with the future of Starsector, Alex. With the current cesspool that is PC gaming these days, Starsector was a refreshing break, for a time. And most of all, it can be again. The foundation is laid, time to build the house to go with it. :)
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He's working on the game full-time and actively adding major features in each update (coming soon: exploration and industry).
He's also very deliberately not made any promises other than to work on it at his own pace and avoided putting himself in situations where he would be faced with deadlines he wouldn't be comfortable with (see: not advertising the game heavily or trying to put it on Steam when he knows it's nowhere near completion).
I understand your frustration with the timeframe at which the game is developed; we'd all like to see it done before we have kids, too, but Alex has been nothing but honest about the design process from the outset.
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All the best with the future of Starsector, Alex. With the current cesspool that is PC gaming these days, Starsector was a refreshing break, for a time. And most of all, it can be again. The foundation is laid, time to build the house to go with it. :)
Thank you, much appreciated! Yeah, that's what it feels like, and what I meant by "everything coming together".
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That's pretty much my stance. Watch and wait, with some mild amusement. Still, my mood was foul enough today to post my disgruntled status. It's not the lack of updates that bothers me, but rather what this game could be with proper support behind it. You see, I come from a very different generation where we played games that were the stuff of legend. Star Control 2 in particular is what this game reminds me most of. The elements are a bit different, but in some regards it is the same. I spent countless hours pouring over a paper map of the known galaxy drawing out territories by hand, mapping quasi space portals and noting systems with planets of high mineral or biological content, so I could return later and go nuts harvesting. I could say the same thing about Starflight and it's sequel. And they all fit on a 5 1/4 floppy or two or three. I think three for Star Control 2.
Nostalgia attack much? I also have great memories with games like SC2 or HOMM1 or Red alert or whatever but lets not get too emotional.
I mean... Really... Those game were great, but it's not like everything after them is just 'meh'. Amazing games come out every now and then but perhaps are harder to notice since industry have grown so much.
And people making those games also took their sweet time. They just didn't write blogposts about that to tease people ;)
Finally, the reason this game is not on Steam? The Steam community in general would tear this game such a new one with negative reviews that it would be buried along with Star Nomad 2, Space Rangers 2, etc, etc. Basically all the top down 2D space exploration, combat, trade, yada, yada games. I would pay real money to see this posted on Steam in it's current form and let almost an entire year go by with no version updates.
I can bet real money that it would get at least 80% of positive reviews, or even more. Starsector is really well made game - it's performance and stability are pretty impressive, no big bugs to complain about. I played few dozen of hours in vanilla (and a bit with mods) having a lot of fun along the way and I believe that many people will enjoy gameplay and give the game good review just as I would. Perhaps there will be some players complaining about boredom after X hours but that kind of boredom actually happens in any open-world-no-final-goal game if you don't mod it (sooner or later. in some cases much later).
I agree that long update times can hurt in reviews... Or can they? Besiege is great example of game that's well made but lacks content and updates are taking months and are small. And yet it still has 96% positive reviews.
I'm done with this for now.
Hey, you can't just rush in, throw some *** and then quit discussion. Ok. You can in practice. But I still consider it rude.
But I guess it's normal for people who have never done any serious programming to underestimate the time and effort that comes with that stuff. (and I guess same thing goes for artwork)
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That's pretty much my stance. Watch and wait, with some mild amusement. Still, my mood was foul enough today to post my disgruntled status. It's not the lack of updates that bothers me, but rather what this game could be with proper support behind it. You see, I come from a very different generation where we played games that were the stuff of legend. Star Control 2 in particular is what this game reminds me most of. The elements are a bit different, but in some regards it is the same. I spent countless hours pouring over a paper map of the known galaxy drawing out territories by hand, mapping quasi space portals and noting systems with planets of high mineral or biological content, so I could return later and go nuts harvesting. I could say the same thing about Starflight and it's sequel. And they all fit on a 5 1/4 floppy or two or three. I think three for Star Control 2.
Anyway, if Alex and crew manage to reproduce this same legendary combo of game mechanics and combine it into something really, really epic. It wil not be an indie game for very long. It will be what Minecraft is now to the space and sci-fi community. Something truly unique. And if you think I'm bashing Alex, Fractal or Starsector. Your dead wrong. I'm just seeing wasted potential, and that's the sort of thing that bothers me. Kinda OCD that way, i suppose. Starting to get old and a wee bit set in my ways :D
I'm done with this for now. Alex has read it, replied and that is pretty much that. All the best with the future of Starsector, Alex. With the current cesspool that is PC gaming these days, Starsector was a refreshing break, for a time. And most of all, it can be again. The foundation is laid, time to build the house to go with it. :)
I'm more upset that he so casually trashed Space Rangers 2 so hard. I very much enjoyed that until the very end when cleaning up gets tiresome. Also Star Nomad 2 was a neat little game well worth the $10 or so. I enjoyed it more than Void Expanse.
Finally you might try addressing what made your mood so foul instead of rehashing a tired rant on an unrelated game forum. Unchecked negativity poisons the self! ;)
Cheers
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He's working on the game full-time
While I don't necessarily share the sentiment of this thread, I do have some doubts towards this claim.
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He's working on the game full-time
While I don't necessarily share the sentiment of this thread, I do have some doubts towards this claim.
I rather doubt that as well.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the game, glacial-pace updates and all, and Alex is on the forums a lot.
However, I don't see how he (let alone the rest of the team, whoever that is) could make a living just on the sales of SS for 5+ years.
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He's working on the game full-time
While I don't necessarily share the sentiment of this thread, I do have some doubts towards this claim.
I rather doubt that as well.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the game, glacial-pace updates and all, and Alex is on the forums a lot.
However, I don't see how he (let alone the rest of the team, whoever that is) could make a living just on the sales of SS for 5+ years.
Didn't Alex explain that in his response in this thread?
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He's working on the game full-time
While I don't necessarily share the sentiment of this thread, I do have some doubts towards this claim.
I rather doubt that as well.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the game, glacial-pace updates and all, and Alex is on the forums a lot.
However, I don't see how he (let alone the rest of the team, whoever that is) could make a living just on the sales of SS for 5+ years.
Didn't Alex explain that in his response in this thread?
Considering how long this game has been in development, no, not really.
Unless he lives very cheaply and has considerable savings I don't see how that would be sustainable over several years.
Maybe I'm completely off on the sales numbers because I only stumbled upon SS by chance and the game isn't actually as niche as it appears.
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I'm full-time on this; David and Stian are part-time. Ivaylo's not actively involved at the moment.
(I will say, reading anything regarding "cash grab" and "lazy developer" is bitterly amusing when I consider how much I'm in the hole compared to just getting a regular programming job. To put things in perspective, I'm working off savings - with income from preorders helping to offset the drain, but not entirely - as opposed to doing more responsible things like saving for (eventual) retirement. Not complaining by any means, though, it's a choice I made and I'm happy with it.
Alex has made similar claims before and is yet to give us a reason not to take him at his word, so there's my answer for you.
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I understand the frustration, I'd love to see the game completed too, but I do think it's wise to have a different approach to dealing with it.
I'm just ignoring the game's development, only occasionally checking the website if there has been any progress.
Eventually 1.0 will arrive. If it takes years, so be it, I don't mind. I'm not at the edge of my seat waiting for it to arrive, I'll just occupy myself with other things. It's not like Starsector is the only game in the universe.
I have faith in Alex that he'll eventually deliver something great, at his own pace. Keep up the good work. :)
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This wait seems longer than previous years. Past few years, we get something in November or December, then get hot patches until February or March. That does not seem that will happen this time, that is, more than one year before next release. I know of the disclaimer.
As for development, it takes me a while to do stuff (and I need to budget my time)... although I need to learn other programs (e.g., Blender and GIMP for models) to make my assets. Being occupied with my own projects means I do not want to spend too much time playing Starsector (because I cannot play other stuff).
Putting Starsector on Steam now is a bad idea, thanks to brutal early-game difficulty, unbalanced (and unfinished) skills, enough exploits to twist combat, and no satisfying endgame victory condition (e.g., you destroyed all factions and now dominate the sector).
...relies on the modding community to do it for him.
I have seen this since the '90s. This is why I prefer a solid base game. If I need mods to make a commercial game good, then it is a game engine posing as a game at best, or blatant or sloppy cash grab at worst. Either way, not worth the money.
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Past few years, we get something in November or December, then get hot patches until February or March. That does not seem that will happen this time
That would be a shame, I'd love to (once again) spent my winter holidays in flat space!
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Anyway, if Alex and crew manage to reproduce this same legendary combo of game mechanics and combine it into something really, really epic. It wil not be an indie game for very long. It will be what Minecraft is now to the space and sci-fi community. Something truly unique. And if you think I'm bashing Alex, Fractal or Starsector. Your dead wrong. I'm just seeing wasted potential, and that's the sort of thing that bothers me. Kinda OCD that way, i suppose. Starting to get old and a wee bit set in my ways :D
I can understand your point but you are being overly aggressive and in a way demanding.
You fear that this game is being mismanaged and will fail. Your solutions are steam early access and hiring people for marketing.
In my opinion those are terrible ideas. From what I've read here Alex plan is to finish and polish the game and then release it on steam. And if he is financially able to do it that's great. It doesn't matter if it takes 5 years or more to me, I want a great game and I can wait for it.
My main problem with early access is that a lot if not most of the revenue comes with the early access release and not with the finished game release. So developers have little financial incentive to keep developing the game. Starsector is clearly a passion project, let him do his thing, let him make a good game, wait for it.
And when it's done it will be moved to steam then promoted and it will be extremely successful.
On a closing note, games usually have a great modding community if the game is interesting/good enough to attract/deserve it. Nobrainer really.
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He's working on the game full-time
While I don't necessarily share the sentiment of this thread, I do have some doubts towards this claim.
feelsbadman dot jpg
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Alex the troll and Alex the tease. Damnit, it's funny and saddening at the same time. Mostly funny though. :)
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My main problem with early access is that a lot if not most of the revenue comes with the early access release and not with the finished game release. So developers have little financial incentive to keep developing the game.
Sounds more like Patreon and not my experience with Early Access at all.
I still consider Steam EA a pretty terrible idea for SS but for entirely different reasons.
Niche games need positive word-of mouth, the more the better. From my experience the easiest way to get that on EA are constant small updates, certainly not a single large one once a year. There are some exceptions of course, but not many.
Putting the game as is on EA would lead to a great initial reaction due to it having way more content and polish than like 98% of titles there.
Then the game would be flooded with suggestions and demands, because rightly or wrongly many EA buyers feel that they deserve a say in how the development of "their" game takes place. And then the long wait for the next update would begin and you could expect several threads like this one weekly or even daily, along with numerous reviews warning potential buyers of Starsector and complaining about it being all but abandoned.
Long story short, don't put a passion project on Early Access unless you really want the input and are able to feed the hungry masses with an update once every month or so.
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I really think Alex is doing the right thing here, let's list some of the less obvious ones:
- By not taking on additional programmers (spending $$$) Alex is getting more programming hours per dollar spent, which give a longer runway for completion (inherent management and change control issues caused by more than one person)
- The alpha releases are of exceptional quality. When was the last time you played an EA game that was as polished with the features that were delivered? Many of the "complete" games on Steam that I play aren't at this quality bar.
- You can only splash once. Don't go onto steam in EA with anything but an amazing product. Look at steam spy and their analysis, you only get one splash on steam and it's when your game is first listed. Alex is being smart by not marketing or going onto Steam yet.
- Mod support if phenomenal; It's not some bolted on after thought. The reason this game appears to some to be carried by the mod community is because Alex has invested so much time allowing mods to exist.
All the other stuff aside, I'd argue that anyone getting more than an hour of gameplay per dollar spent is getting a pretty good deal. By that measure alone SS is a huge success for most of us.
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semi long time semi lurker posting:
RANT RANT RANT UPDATES TAKE FOREVER
-Proceeds to check the site/forum every day for updates/Alex posts-
its like a drug... (More news soon please ;D)
One of my favorite games in quite a long time.
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I think what the original poster meant to say was.....
I can't wait for this awesome game to get more awesome.We are starving for more content"Thank You modders for you are just as awesome" but we all know we could die at any moment and it would be horrible to die before this game is fully released.
We definitely want a polished game and understand that it takes awhile to create code from ground up but couldn't Christmas come earlier this year? Ok fine but maybe a teaser on trading and station building?
Well I just wanted to say Alex your doing a great job and I hope all is well in your life and Thank You for giving me the hours of enjoyment I have experienced already."Thank You modders for you are just as awesome"
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Like you see on my previous Topics im one of the most Patient People in the World.
And i really would like to see this Game finished but even when not i got already my Money worth thanks for the Fun hours :-)
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- By not taking on additional programmers (spending $$$) Alex is getting more programming hours per dollar spent, which give a longer runway for completion (inherent management and change control issues caused by more than one person)
From my experience, this is a fallacy. Teams operate more efficiently than individuals, because:
- humans have a finite working set, they cannot consider everything, all the time.
- designs are fluid, and humans are fallible. If you make a design error in task A, but don't notice it until you've completed A and moved onto B, having a second programmer start B earlier results in less wasted effort.
- splitting work necessitates modular design leading to more durable code.
- the tools for efficient collaborative working necessitate rigourous development practices; version control, commenting, documentation, etc
- just as not all people are alike, nor is code. Leveraging team members' specialist knowledge saves learning effort.
"Many hands make light work"
"The whole is greater than the sum of its parts"
Etc etc
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if you start it together maybe, but it's common wisdom in software that adding more people to the job does not produce a linear increase in delivery speed, in fact it often goes backwards because the people who were working on it have to slow down their own work to explain the inner workings of the complicated beast to the newbies, and the newbies constant misunderstandings and mistakes have to be fixed.
i mean, if you're raking leaves more rakes = more speed, but if you're trying to produce an atom bomb quadrupling the size of the team responsible for it isn't going to produce the same linear curve of increased productivity
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From my experience, this is a fallacy. Teams operate more efficiently than individuals,
... Given sufficient initial (and ongoing) working capital to support a team, provided management structure & ability exists, and provided a project which is (pre-)structured to best leverage a team of specialized individuals.
I think this is all fascinating and worthwhile stuff, and I've got direct experience with how it goes right and wrong over the past four years. But it's simply not applicable to Starsector now, or how Starsector developed from an off-time hobby project to a full-time operation for Alex.
So, let's say a budget of 600k-2mil is required as a minimum to fund a team of 4-6 over a couple years. Where's the money come from? Maybe a super successful Kickstarter at the beginning ... except Kickstarter only exploded for gaming in February 2012 with Doublefine's efforts, leveraging an existing studio's brand/reputation. No one knew who Alex was at the start. Maybe if he'd pitched a publisher, but what publisher would fund a hardcore 2D space tactics game from an unknown - in Java? Minecraft had not "officially released" when Starsector began production. Where else can you get capital - Indiefund or something? Alex isn't a name in indie circles, and it didn't exist then. Lottery?
Even if building a team was desirable (and it can be a huge trap), the working capital isn't there and was never going to appear. So there are worthy arguments to be made about effectiveness of management practice and project organization, but those come after simply having the money to start with.
This is indie game development!
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Indie Game Development in a nut-shell:
Going to the Yukon gold-rush and hitting it off, hitting it well, hitting it poorly, or hitting rock bottom. All variable from the tools, location you choose, the people you choose, the people you might know; The time you choose to go and the time you get there.
This doesn't do justice to the subject at hand, but, that's a way of thinking about it.
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In my experience a team of two is the most effective in terms of hours put in to quality code produced. Working with another person can be a source of motivation, and when working with something complex like a game, often one person can be overwhelmed and just overlook a simple solution because they can't think of everything when a short conversation with another good programmer who is familiar with the project would bring it up as a matter of course. But with more than two, especially on a tightly connected game like this, you often get situations where one person is waiting on another to finish a system, or people stepping on each others toes and causing bugs because they don't know each others code, or merge conflicts.
But there's another major reason not to hire more programmers that nobody has brought up yet - often they want to have a say in the game. If two different visions are fighting over the project, and this can happen even if the programmers leave every meeting in total agreement, it just makes the game more messy. That's why so many indie games with one programmer or really small teams feel so authentic and special.
Anyway, come on guys, you know this isn't vaporware. The game has been chugging along at a remarkably steady pace for a long time, there is absolutely no reason to panic now. Especially since Alex seems to be extra optimistic about the progress.
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All fears could be dispelled with a...CHANGELOG! Write up what has been done thus far and share it with the emaciated masses (us!) so we can see what wonderous content has been wrought over these many long months. C'mon, it is certainly time...
It'd have the added bonus of reinvigorating this message board and getting some fun debates a'going!
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yes we need more details about how fighters are going to be much improved
please
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Nowadays everyone seems to be rushing to make huge campaigns before a single line of code has been written and nothing but promo art has been produced. And often even devs who wouldn't have to resort to kickstarter simply go there to get some free money in advance. Freshly formed studios with no publisher insist on their first game being of AAA+ quality with no compromises...
Crowdfunding and attention of large audience are finicky forces. Completely unrelated projects can funnel hungry players towards you, superficial similarities with notable failures may very well bury you. Accidentally roll out next to a smash hit or heavily advertised title and your splash becomes a tiny "plop".
Keep the schedule as it is, so that modders have the patience to update their creations. Building on top of a moving target sucks, guess why Linux is still not really desktop-ready? :) How can you move ahead if you can barely keep the pace?
Obviously this is no Duke Nukem Forever. "When it's done, it's done" sounds very reasonable here. It would be nice to see the current total development time in the FAQ or somewhere, to better assess the speed of progress, but a curious person can find that out easily with acceptable accuracy.
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Got this game recently, still getting into it and it seems like having quite a lot of content. I dunno, for me it feels like finished product already and I have little idea of what else can be added here, new player can get lost here pretty easily. Installed good batch of mods, and now content feels absolutely infinite...
On one point I still have to agree with Bane, game has NO PR whatsoever, seriously, I stumbled on it in some reddit necro post dating few years back without any clarity of what Starsector is. Word should be sent out in some way, maybe adding game to libraries on big modding related sites, posting blogs on major gaming sites or something. It's truly amazing little gem that's hard to find, a lot of people are missing on fun playing SS, and Alex is obviously missing on lots of new potential customers.
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I actually made a spreadsheet with the release dates of each update. This is the longest time between updates to date.
As of today, its been 262 days since the last patch. The previous record was 118 days.
Number of days since the last major update is 293 days. The previous record was 239 days.
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I waited 5 years for Streets of Rage Remake 5.0, the best beat-em-up of all time. Patience is the price of mind-blowing excellence. Hell, there weren't even any alpha or beta releases for that, just blog posts for 8 years. The pace of Starsector is more than fine, in my opinion.
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I actually made a spreadsheet with the release dates of each update. This is the longest time between updates to date.
As of today, its been 262 days since the last patch. The previous record was 118 days.
Number of days since the last major update is 293 days. The previous record was 239 days.
Yikes, that really puts it into perspective, Tuz!
The hounds are beginning to starve; blog posts can no longer satiate the hunger!
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The hounds are beginning to starve; blog posts can no longer satiate the hunger!
To be completely honest, I stopped reading the blog posts a while ago.
If those posts came with some sort of ETA I could appreciate them but I can only be teased so often before I get annoyed.
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Yep, this mix of the longest current time between updates and a buttload of new content being teased to us is really what made some people impatient. Guess we'll get some patch notes Soon™ :)
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Well, let's just be clear that blog posts are very much appreciated! I (and hopefully the rest of you) am not saying that blog posts shouldn't happen as frequently as possible!
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Though I too feel the ache of wanting an update and the fighter changes, I have to come to the defense of the blog posts because I think they are really cool and super informative on the design methodology of the game :)
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Alex, I have been keeping an eye on this game for about 4 months now and I have to say, I truly hope this game makes it.
I would say Starsector and Factorio both feel quite deeply satisfying on a gameplay level like no other game in the last 5-6 years, at least for me.
The only thing keeping me from buying the game to support it is years of indie games failing to live up to what they promise once they have money leave me extremely sceptical. But make no mistake I will be first in line to buy it and recommend it once it's done.
The game has amazing potential, I wish you luck in bringing it to fruition.
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With the large amount of time of this update. I really do think this is most likely will contain the framework for industry-player faction.
Look at how many blog updates that could have been easily been rolled in to an update but instead they are all being collected together, with the common theme on industry, bases, and maybe research.
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The problem with Long updates is, unless your fanboy who roams the forums regular, to the rest of the world the game looks dead, and if game look dead it gets deleted from the bookmarks and they never check back.
Updates should be at worst once ever 3 months imo, it don't even need to be huge updates, update give peace of mind that the devs are still at work, and outside people who seen and are interested in the game are more likely keep the page bookmarks to monitor how its development is progressing, those kinda people are not going to spend time in forums, they will just go straight to the update page and judge there and then if the site is worth watching or not.
It dont matter how hard the dev's work behind the scenes, if they nothing people can physically witness they wont believe it.
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Insert Quote
The problem with Long updates is, unless your fanboy who roams the forums regular, to the rest of the world the game looks dead, and if game look dead it gets deleted from the bookmarks and they never check back.
Updates should be at worst once ever 3 months imo, it don't even need to be huge updates, update give peace of mind that the devs are still at work, and outside people who seen and are interested in the game are more likely keep the page bookmarks to monitor how its development is progressing, those kinda people are not going to spend time in forums, they will just go straight to the update page and judge there and then if the site is worth watching or not.
It dont matter how hard the dev's work behind the scenes, if they nothing people can physically witness they wont believe it.
I don't think I've ever expected a game in development to constantly ouptut content on a regular schedule whether there is anything "worthwhile" or not.
And such things, I belive are the bane of creativity AND quality.
Your expectations are based on what big name developers and publishers frequently do, and that is not something I'd ever expect any indie dev to put upon themselves.
Far too often over the years I have seen games I wanted to play being hyped and developed, and then being rushed out asap because that's "how the business works". And almost invariably those games have been either embarassingly bug ridden carcasses (FFE), or utterly tedious and terrible to play (MoO3, HW2, HWR).
So no, I'm very glad SS is taking it's time and getting everything in the right place and nailed down before shoving it out of the door. Quality > Quantity.
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I think braven25 just wanted to point out that shorter pauses between updates would keep people more interested in the game. He never said he wanted the game finished ASAP.
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I think the blog posts every month do a good job of making the game not seem dead, and they get a lot of comments on the forums.
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I think braven25 just wanted to point out that shorter pauses between updates would keep people more interested in the game. He never said he wanted the game finished ASAP.
Thats exactly what I am saying.
I think the blog posts every month do a good job of making the game not seem dead, and they get a lot of comments on the forums.
Sadly not true, especially when they lot devs that posted frequent blogs and never really produced the product those blogs promised.
Most people only glance the actually physical updates, not the blogs.
Don't get me wrong blog are great, but they tend to only be good for those who already invested in the game.
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Every update practically makes Starsector a fresh title. I've definitely gotten my money's worth and then some.
Indie game dev, especially when running off savings with a small group or solo, is hell. People demanding things go faster (*especially* when the game's got a fair bit of meat as is) have never done indie game development or talked with indie devs to hear their side of things.
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it will be done when it is done
there is no point bellyaching about it in the mean time
play something else until the update comes out. there are kabillions of other vidya to play
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Oh man why's this thread still a thing. Games that are produced in early access like SS that produce content frequently enough to keep most of the fans happy are usually trash because if you spend a month working yourself to the bone, %80 or more of that time will be spent figuring out what doesn't work and if you do happen upon something that does that month then you haven't had time to implement it.
So Starsector can either be updated with the frequency of a YouTube channel or it can be Actually Good. You don't get to have both
OR: the reason that it's good enough to be worth wanting more of it is because there isnt, and if there were it wouldn't be worth wanting so there's no reason to ***
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I don't think I've ever expected a game in development to constantly ouptut content on a regular schedule whether there is anything "worthwhile" or not.
And such things, I belive are the bane of creativity AND quality.
Your expectations are based on what big name developers and publishers frequently do, and that is not something I'd ever expect any indie dev to put upon themselves.
Games in development usually aren't open to the public to play so they can follow whatever update schedule works best for them, but that whole scenario changes considerably once you put your alpha or beta on the market.
I would also argue that this is precisely what AAA studios with a publisher behind them don't do.
With a few exceptions the big boys only grant access to selected youtubers in a controlled setting for advertising purposes. They might provide an open beta once their game is so far in development that there's not much left to do besides balance changes and a round of polishing or two, but they very rarely let you look under the hood. Early Access models are mostly used by smaller or indie studios, often without a publisher, simply because they need to secure additional funding to be able to finish development.
If anything his or her expectations are probably based on various Steam EA titles.
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(I will say, reading anything regarding "cash grab" and "lazy developer" is bitterly amusing when I consider how much I'm in the hole compared to just getting a regular programming job. To put things in perspective, I'm working off savings - with income from preorders helping to offset the drain, but not entirely - as opposed to doing more responsible things like saving for (eventual) retirement. Not complaining by any means, though, it's a choice I made and I'm happy with it.
But, yeah, if one finds oneself thinking an indie developer is making a "cash grab", this really just isn't the industry for it. I'm not saying it never happens, but 99.9% of the time it's not going to be that. If I simply wanted to grab some cash, a regular job would be so much more time-efficient.)
Exactly.
Keep on truckin', Alex. I haven't had much time to say stuff around here lately, but I am aware you've made huge gains this update, and this remains the best $10 I've spent on a game, ever. I've bought a number of copies for others, etc. at this point and I've recommended it countless times. I can't wait to see this get done-enough to hit Steam, where jaws should drop :)
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Game is coming along nicely, I like checking in every month or two and seeing where it's at, maybe sinking 10-20 hours into a new campaign and then scurrying off again.
It's all going well IMO.
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I have rarely seen such a ridiculous jackass as the OP of this thread. I am overwhelmed by how unqualified for life you are, man.
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@RyokenMK: You've got a PM.
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I have rarely seen such a ridiculous jackass as the OP of this thread. I am overwhelmed by how unqualified for life you are, man.
Whereas your delightful contribution significantly improved the thread...?
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This thread really ought to be locked. I can't see it going anywhere good from here.
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wow....I've been following this game for years......playing it too. but these....buzz words today, such as cash grab, lazy Dev, etc.etc. have been thrown around so much past year or so they've lost pretty much all their weight when being used to prove a point.
I've been playing video games for over 30+yrs. I've seen all manner come, go, fizzle, scam.
I do know this. I know a good game, this is a good game. I knew it was a good game when it was just barely combat...what early 2012? and I INVESTED into this game. I paid my $$, and I played every version to the nub.
I can see parts of the OP's frustration....I've had fleeting bits of it...SO? I'm invested, gladly so. I've invested into many a game, by my choice, understanding what comes with investments...RISK. I never have, never will get pissy, and *** over the internet my frustrations with what ever game I might be upset about......in the end MEH to it all.
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This thread really ought to be locked. I can't see it going anywhere good from here.
Why should it be locked?
Admittedly the OP lost the plot halfway through his rant (Derek Smart? Really?) but the replies have been perfectly civil.
In fact most replies were outright positive and supportive.
A single abusive poster dropping unrelated insults should only get that poster warned (which apparently happened), not the entire thread locked.
Of course you could argue that everything worth saying has already been said, but this isn't exactly the first time this topic came up, nor will it be the last, so you might as well keep this open and let people reply here instead of starting a new thread yet again.
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This thread really ought to be locked. I can't see it going anywhere good from here.
Why should it be locked?
Admittedly the OP lost the plot halfway through his rant (Derek Smart? Really?) but the replies have been perfectly civil.
In fact most replies were outright positive and supportive.
A single abusive poster dropping unrelated insults should only get that poster warned (which apparently happened), not the entire thread locked.
Of course you could argue that everything worth saying has already been said, but this isn't exactly the first time this topic came up, nor will it be the last, so you might as well keep this open and let people reply here instead of starting a new thread yet again.
As Soren so politely said on Discord, "You took a *** on the forum and nobody liked the smell." Interesting how most seem to have some smart ass remark attacking me, instead of using solid reasoning to dispute any of what i posted. Yes, perfectly civil. A few actually took the time to at least show me some sort shred of decency and come up with some solid points, which was nice. Not most however.
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This thread really ought to be locked. I can't see it going anywhere good from here.
Why should it be locked?
Admittedly the OP lost the plot halfway through his rant (Derek Smart? Really?) but the replies have been perfectly civil.
In fact most replies were outright positive and supportive.
A single abusive poster dropping unrelated insults should only get that poster warned (which apparently happened), not the entire thread locked.
Of course you could argue that everything worth saying has already been said, but this isn't exactly the first time this topic came up, nor will it be the last, so you might as well keep this open and let people reply here instead of starting a new thread yet again.
As Soren so politely said on Discord, "You took a *** on the forum and nobody liked the smell." Interesting how most seem to have some smart ass remark attacking me, instead of using solid reasoning to dispute any of what i posted. Yes, perfectly civil. A few actually took the time to at least show me some sort shred of decency and come up with some solid points, which was nice. Not most however.
I don't frequent the Discord server so I have no idea what people may or may not have said to you there, I was clearly referring to the thread only.
You conveniently seem to forget that people did address your points, some even agreed. In fact the very first reply you got, from a forum veteran, started out with "It's been like this for many years now, but I don't blame you for feeling that way."
As far as I can tell only a single poster attacked you personally and promptly received a warning for it.
As for disputing your points, that would be a lot easier if your OP was more of a reasonable assertion and less of an angry rant.
Let me highlight a few claims that made it impossible for me to take you seriously.
another cash grab
A cash grab that loses money? Running for 5+ years? On a fairly obscure forum that only hardcore fans of the genre are likely to even find?
the hype train has just blown by it with little fan fare
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given how little thought or effort is put into marketing this game
So now it's a cash grab past its hype that isn't even properly advertised?
You do know that a cash grab, by its very definition, relies on exploiting hype to make quick money, right?
Battlecruiser 3000AD would be a good comparison, along with Derek Smart.
This is the point where you lost anyone that was still taking this at face value.
Battlecruiser 3000AD was an unplayable mess even long after release, whereas Starsector may be in development forever but is perfectly playable and without major bugs.
Comparing Derek Smart, who is infamous for his attitude and for telling his own customers to go eff themselves, with Alex, one of the nicest and most responsive devs I have ever met, is beyond comical. That's just absurd.
If I were Fractal, at this point, I would release what is there and done and move on to the next version.
So you'd advise to drop this before completion and release an unfinished game? In other words, you'd want them to pull a belated cash grab?
At this point I'm honestly not sure what you're arguing for anymore.
Look, I can understand that you're angry. Frankly, I'm somewhat annoyed as well and I haven't even been following the development for all that long compared to many other guys here. I completely agree that new versions are taking far too long and that it would probably be more advisable to release smaller incremental updates instead of building anticipation for an entire year. I also agree that this is most likely not a very good way to keep a steady cash flow going, especially since Alex has admitted himself that funding the development of the game loses him money.
Unfortunately your OP is framed in a way that makes it impossible to agree with you even though I share some of your concerns. You heaped up so many accusations, insults and demonstrably false claims that I'm rather surprised how level-headed the majority of replies have been.
So yeah, some of your points are valid in my opinion, but the way you worded them is not. If you think I lack decency for pointing that out then so be it.
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For $15 I've gotten more hours of fun than I can count, and the game's still being improved. Compare this to, say, No Man's Sky, which cost four times as much and the lead dev slunk into a hole somewhere after lying to everybody he sold the game to. If Alex has any future cash grabs in mind after this one I'm on board.
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Sorry, but I'm not going to quote and unquote the mess that is your post to all hell, because I'm simply too lazy this morning, but I will address a few points. Firstly, your making some pretty wild assumptions on what I intended with my OP, not to mention your taking most of it out of context and not even properly quoting it.
I did say a few were pretty decent, including the first from a forum veteran. That was nice, yes. Even your reply is at least somewhat decent, no matter how badly distorted it is.
I would hardly call it an angry rant, believe me, if it was an angry rant, it would be far less civil.
I can call it a cash grab quite easily, there are no sales figures available and while Alex claims to be working on it everyday, I very much doubt it. Not for 5+ years at least. It would be considerably more complete and complex at this stage. On the other hand, I will concede one thing, having programmed an intranet for the government using java, it is without a doubt one of the worst programming languages out there, period. No idea why it was chosen as the basis for this game. So I can imagine it's slowing development down considerably.
You completely, and utterly missed the point as to why I brought up Derek Smart and Battlecruiser. They are similar because both developers seem to think it's still cool to go lonewolf on game development, and the whole mess smacks of pride, due to the refusal to get any additional help to speed up the project, also because both games attempted to throw everything in the game but the kitchen sink before releasing it and attempting to make everything perfect. The result was less then impressive, as you said when it comes to Battlecruiser and I don't see it resulting in anything better here. The reference has nothing to do with his attitude towards the community, or anything other then what I stated above.
Not sure what this belated cash grab is, I can only assume sarcasm. I was referring to releasing the current version such as it is, rather then wait until god knows when to give us something else to play with. I wasn't referring to releasing the entire game right this second, but the current version he is working on. That's right, the current version that he's writing about in all these blog posts, which I'm sure is playable at this point. It's fast approaching a year since the community saw any new builds.
Beyond that, excusing the lack of updates on "Oh, this is the indie game industry!" is hilarious. Really? Fascinating stuff, it's good to know that indie game developers are held to lower standards then those in the "regular" game industry, and that there is zero accountability, let's just all keep our fingers crossed that one of these years, we'll eventually have a new build to toy with. Let's just hope that whatever current OS is out by then, that it still supports Java.
But at the end of the day, it's Alex's perogative when and how to release new builds. This topic or anything contained within is unlikely to change anything, my OP was just giving my opinion and thoughts, which last time I checked I'm allowed to do this in this place. At least for now.
If nothing else, this lovely little thread is wonderful amusement to go with my morning coffee.
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Dude, you have other games, you have internet, you have a life (I assume). Surely there are other things you can sink your time into until the next update comes out. I assure you everyone on this forum is eagerly waiting for the update (or patch notes at least) to come out. Be patient mate :)
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If nothing else, this lovely little thread is wonderful amusement to go with my morning coffee.
Well, I'm glad I amuse you.
I especially like the dismissive tone, the complaint about wild assumptions when your OP was nothing but, and the fact that you accuse me of misquoting and taking things out of context when you couldn't be bothered to quote at all and attribute arguments to me that I never made.
Good talk.
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Locked; this is going in circles, and nowhere good.