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[TaLaR]

@Sordid

Wow, that was a brutal rant.

While agree that combat is the best part, I don't think the rest is unnecessary padding.

CR is fine, before its introduction optimal tactics involved kiting enemy to death (and it was possible to make them waste all ammo in process). Now you have to act fast and decisively.

Heavy focus on AI-allies is also kind of necessary and allows for much broader range of possible combat situations. Plus SS *does* have best AI I've ever seen in a 2d space game, even if it's far from perfect.

Limited number of command points is annoying though, and forces you to build your strategy around CP limitations instead of actual combat situation most of the time. You can get more CP from leadership skill, but it's never actually worth it, compared to combat/tech skills.

While 1 year wait period before update was certainly long, whether or not Alex is out of ideas remains to be seen, as far as I'm concerned. At least sensor system in this update is quite elegant, even if game currently doesn't give you enough incentives/opportunities to exploit it. Investigation system is too heavy-handed on the other hand, and as Alex admitted himself, doesn't come with enough carrot (or any, in fact).

[J3R]

Being a bounty hunter involves combat so I see no problem making other factions hostile sooner but if you want to delay that you can sneak around patrols to bribe the investigator to delay the hostility say with the Askonians. Other than that if you are Hegemony focus, killing bounties from independant and hegemony along with destroying enemy TT fleets is what being a bounty hunter is about. The transponder mechanics are fun if you know what you are doing and especially with faster fleets who can duck into a nebula or asteroid belt and go dark watching a pursuer fly past. The transponder makes you work for the stealthy market entry rather than just handing it to you on a platter which is much more immersive than a huge market being open to a pirate which is basically what you are when the transponder goes off. As it is remaining friendly to all factions is incredibly overpowered since missions coupled with trade can get you up to 2million creds in no time without even effecting faction hostility.

Not sure why some people want everything handed to them on a platter. It's so rare to have a game where you discover things on your own without being hand fed all the information, and in the end if something confuses you asking about it on the forum is easy enough.

Missions and bounties that require higher faction rep should be a mechanic though so you have more stuff to work up to if you want to be loyal to a particular faction. Other than that even better money sink ships and weapons are needed. Maybe an all out war to break loose once you achieve a certain point in the game with enemy annihilation being the end goal.

[Schwartz]

Offtopic, but..

Dodging patrols, narrowly escaping a deathball by use of emergency burn and some clever use of terrain, going dark and sneaking in a surgical strike on a convoy in the spirit of submarine warfare.. all these are appetizing lil' nuggets that whet your appetite for a kill you were looking to make. Or make you dread an encounter you weren't hoping to make. Very late-game you might be able to reduce this to "I can smash everything."

I don't like soloing much personally. That means the enemy fleet doesn't have to decide where to point their noses, ever, and their shields most of the time. Trading shots is a number's game. The tactical side is opened up through use of your own fleet, and the command points force hard decisions on you. Just yesterday I had this thrilling stand-off. The enemy fleet mirrored my own, except that instead of my Heron, they had an Astral. Their fighters were better, their Medusas were more numerous and they had way more frigates than I. Being limited in command points forced me to set them all to defend a nav beacon, whereupon the battle developed into a war of attrition. Two battle lines pressing up against one another, ships poking their heads out, landing a few shots and falling back into line. It was really strange and satisfying to watch that they held each other off like this (with no losses on either side!), giving me time to sneak around in my Medusa and flank them, taking out a few frigates and forcing some of their ships of the line to veer off and turn shields. A battle that I'd lost spectacularly two or three times turned into a resounding victory with the use of one command point. Hell, I was proud of the AI.

This is just to illustrate that the bigger the fleets, the *more* the survival of your ships depends on your command decisions and where you put your presence during the fight. Force projection without focus is really just a brawl fueled by AI situational awareness. With the difference that the enemy AI commander does make use of commands.

[Tomn]

Overall I feel like the developer is out of ideas, so he's just cramming in filler. He made the really fun part, the space shooter, and now he's padding it out with stuff that just makes it more annoying rather than more interesting and challenging.

The dev had always been big on the strategic layer from the outset, though.  It's been his stated goal to come up with a dynamic galaxy where factions rise and fall on the back of precarious post-apocalyptic economies which might easily be overthrown by piracy, player intervention, or just plain natural disasters.  The space combat is an important centerpiece and the most viscerally fun part of the game, but it is and always has been intended to be merely part of the whole.  What did you think the unused industry tab in the character screen was for?

The problem is that "the whole" is a giant, complex and highly interconnected thing which can't be produced all in one go, at least the way Alex is developing the game.  He wants to introduce new features and ideas one and a time and tinker with them until they're ready for prime time, which is great, but some of those features don't stand that well on their own, and others are a little bland without their partners.  If the end result comes out as advertised it ought to be pretty good, but until we get there it'll be a pretty rocky road with a lot of placeholders and sub-par interactions.

[Sordid]

The dev had always been big on the strategic layer from the outset, though.  It's been his stated goal to come up with a dynamic galaxy where factions rise and fall on the back of precarious post-apocalyptic economies which might easily be overthrown by piracy, player intervention, or just plain natural disasters.  The space combat is an important centerpiece and the most viscerally fun part of the game, but it is and always has been intended to be merely part of the whole.  What did you think the unused industry tab in the character screen was for?

I started playing before players skills even existed. IIRC there wasn't even any campaign mode, it was just a bunch of battle scenarios. I don't know what the original intention was, but I do know what game I discovered back then and instantly fell in love with. It bothers me that instead of that game getting better, a completely different game grew on top of it, like a tumor.

The problem is that "the whole" is a giant, complex and highly interconnected thing which can't be produced all in one go, at least the way Alex is developing the game.  He wants to introduce new features and ideas one and a time and tinker with them until they're ready for prime time, which is great, but some of those features don't stand that well on their own, and others are a little bland without their partners.  If the end result comes out as advertised it ought to be pretty good, but until we get there it'll be a pretty rocky road with a lot of placeholders and sub-par interactions.

I am unconvinced that introducing even more complexity to an already complicated poorly working system will make it better. It's just going to end up being an even bigger mess than it already is.

[MajorProblem]

You know, you can still play those scenarios you so fell in love with, if complexity isn't yours and you like the simple things in space.

[gigglezp3wp3w]

There are a lot of good idea's on this thread I'm personally of the opinion that factions disliking you for buying military cruisers and battleships's isn't a terrible idea, but it's current implementation is absolutely horrid and stupid, the idea that some gov. official basically goes "why yes this mercenary captain does work for other people. Hmmmmm clearly the only solution is murder !" is completly out of place no matter how you look at it. how would you guys solve it ?

A good way might be to once a faction reaches friendly or favorable other factions will start to revert back to neutral (thus denying you their military goodies), they wouldn't want to be arming someone who could turn on them, it makes sense. Later down the track maybe their could a mission line where you bribe officials to acquire certain ships at the risk of turning said faction from neutral to hostile etc etc ?

[Gothars]

Overall I feel like the developer is out of ideas, so he's just cramming in filler. He made the really fun part, the space shooter, and now he's padding it out with stuff that just makes it more annoying rather than more interesting and challenging.

It bothers me that instead of that game getting better, a completely different game grew on top of it, like a tumor.

Seriously The website clearly stated the direction the game was going in from the very beginning. You can see all the features that moved from the "upcoming" list to the "current" list. The plan to make a whole-hearted space game stood from the beginning. That you want some other, purely action-combat game is your good right, but to act as if the dev had betrayed you by not making that is just ridiculous.

[Nimaniel]

Not sure I trust myself to reply to Kzanu and Sordid, but here goes:

Games are very different. Tetris, Counterstrike, Starsector, etc. We all discover games that we like, and where we can see a lot of potential for growth. When those games develop in a direction we disagree with or dislike, we get disappointed. That is natural. Your criticism is welcomed, but please don't compare the game to tumors, that's uncalled for. Call it a mess if you think it is a mess, that's fine.

Personally, I find that the games that I like best have the 3 classical layers: Strategic, tactical and operational. For example: Total War, League of Legends, Starsector. Games that lack layers can be fun, but they are too simple to provide lasting fun. I think you will find this to be true for Starsector if you only play missions, never the campaign.

Right now Starsector is still undergoing heavy development with lots of changes. What we have today is geared towards supporting things that have not even been implemented yet, such as industry, meaningful faction warfare, and other goodies that will continue to have a massive effect on how the game plays.

Your comments makes me think that you loved SPAZ (I think we all did). If you haven't played it yet, go and have some fun with it. Then come back to Starsector when you want a game that is more complex, and you are ready to enjoy and appreciate the interaction between the strategy, tactics and execution.

[Megas]

Re: Medusa
I found two Medusa in Independent Black Markets.  Given my playstyle, Hegemony was chosen by the game for me.  Had I fully understood all of the new game mechanics, I would have sabotaged my relations with Hegemony before they reached Welcoming on purpose to prevent faction ties until level 36+.

[Tomn]

I am unconvinced that introducing even more complexity to an already complicated poorly working system will make it better. It's just going to end up being an even bigger mess than it already is.

That's kind of like looking at a half-completed battleship in the middle of construction and saying "Goddamn, this is a complicated mess that can't do anything and can barely float.  And you want to make it MORE complex?  Just go back to a simple rowboat, we know that will work."  The reason why the bits work poorly is because their supporting elements don't exist yet or exist only in skeletal form, of course it's not gonna work brilliantly.  That doesn't mean it's wrong to push onwards towards a finished product.

And yeah, as others have stated, the dev hasn't exactly been shy about his plans for the future.  Hell, the original reason I bought into the game myself WAS those plans for the future, because I liked the idea of post-apocalyptic space shenanigans in a reactive world.

[Megas]

@ Sordid: Like you, I got the game shortly before introduction of skills mainly for its arcade-like action.  To me, campaign meant modernized Star Control 2, which I greatly enjoyed during the early 90s.

I hope the final (unmodded) game supports a conquest game like the mod Nexerelin, where I can destroy or subdue the factions and take over the whole Sector.  I also hope combat remains the primary focus of the game, with administrative duties relegated to background stuff required to maintain independence from any faction.  I would like to be self-sufficient and not some other faction's paperboy or attack-dog by endgame.

[Kzanu]

Not sure I trust myself to reply to Kzanu and Sordid, but here goes:

Games are very different. Tetris, Counterstrike, Starsector, etc. We all discover games that we like, and where we can see a lot of potential for growth. When those games develop in a direction we disagree with or dislike, we get disappointed. That is natural. Your criticism is welcomed, but please don't compare the game to tumors, that's uncalled for. Call it a mess if you think it is a mess, that's fine.

Personally, I find that the games that I like best have the 3 classical layers: Strategic, tactical and operational. For example: Total War, League of Legends, Starsector. Games that lack layers can be fun, but they are too simple to provide lasting fun. I think you will find this to be true for Starsector if you only play missions, never the campaign.

Right now Starsector is still undergoing heavy development with lots of changes. What we have today is geared towards supporting things that have not even been implemented yet, such as industry, meaningful faction warfare, and other goodies that will continue to have a massive effect on how the game plays.

Your comments makes me think that you loved SPAZ (I think we all did). If you haven't played it yet, go and have some fun with it. Then come back to Starsector when you want a game that is more complex, and you are ready to enjoy and appreciate the interaction between the strategy, tactics and execution.

Indeed I own SPAZ and really enjoyed it. Also almost all single player space games out there on the market (decent ones). I do understand that this game is designed with a purpose. Having played with the bounty system the guys explained, I made some fast cash and awesome battles and had a piece of fun. But. Again. Reputation goes up as you do the bounties, investigations start, now I'm hostile by 2 factions.

You have to admit that going in a faction space and repeatedly turning off the beacon as to keep reputation neutral after doing some bounty missions is pretty MEH as a gameplay solution.

Pls understand that this impacted pretty hard after basically playing a whole new game. It is purely nonsensical and fun destroying in this current implementation. Fun fact now my favorite faction (purple Syndicate) is investigating me because Hegemony faction gave me rep until 30 for some back to back close bounties. Can we at least have the investigations start around 40 rep?! An easily implementable temporary solution.

[Cik]

- And, in purely financial sense combat is not worth it in general, unless some bounty (personal or system-wide) is involved.

yeah, this is a big problem. piracy is impossible for this reason, as pirates never put out bounties. when you add the fact that your opponents will be correspondingly tougher (hegemony/TT pickets or large formations of mercantile ships with escort) and your gear will be correspondingly worse, playing anything but a state-sanctioned attack dog becomes impossible.

[Megas]

What I do not like about faction ties as currently implemented (aside from some nonsense) is it occurs so early and without sufficient warning that there is no room for error.  If you play perfectly, you are barely strong enough to defend yourself once factions go hostile.  If you lose badly or wipe, and do not reload games; it can effectively be a "GAME OVER" moment.

And the way to avoid faction ties is dumb - attacking allies, playing games with transponder, openly smuggling stuff, anything to lower reputation to prevent reputation from getting too high.

Re: Combat
It is tough to profit from combat, and all it takes to undo your progress and more is one catastrophically bad battle (if you play Ironman or do not reload games).