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[Tartiflette]

So I am trying to make my Scyan ships slightly stealthier when still and more visible when moving, but I'm having some issues making the effect noticeable. Given that the sensor profile is an Integer, even a small change can radically change their visibility... But it doesn't seems to have much consequence on the detection range. I tried a +33%/-33% offset when moving or not and I get this:
While moving:
"Your fleet has a sensor profile of 16, it can be detected at 1050range."
While still:
"Your fleet has a sensor profile of 8, it can be detected at 930 range."

So I get a 10% shorter detection range for half the profile, this is kinda weird. And I can't use a global modifier like "Going Dark" since all ships might not be Scyan. So what's going one here? How is the range calculated?

[Gothars]

I'll link you to this topic, in short: It's "logarithmic" and "involved".

Just as a hint to estimate the scale you'll need to see real effects: the civilian hull-mod has a +100% sensor profile modifier, so a Buffalo adds at much as a capital ship.

[Tartiflette]

Thank you but that doesn't help me that much in the end.
I tried it with several profiles:
0 => 510
1 => 570
2 => 680
4 => 790
8 => 930
16 => 1050
40 => 1210
79 => 1350
150 => 1470 (25 Onslaughts with augmented engines!)
250 => 1570 (25 Atlases with augmented engines)

So there seems to be a flat 510 detection range and the actual sensor profile has very little influence overall: you have to reduce your sensor profile by 95% to halve your detection range. That makes "stealth" hullmods obsolete, and the "civilian" one of nearly no consequence. I expected both abilities and hull-mods to have a similar effect but in the current state, the later are useless.

[Gothars]

Mh. Can't you modify range directly, like environmental effects do?

Seems as if the sensor profile has a lot of influence for small fleets though, so for those you can make the mechanic relevant. Interesting idea btw, fits the raid/ambush lore very well.

[Tartiflette]

Mh. Can't you modify range directly, like environmental effects do?

For Scy only fleets that would work, but what of fleets that mix ships from all origin? Or SS+ fleets?

Seems as if the sensor profile has a lot of influence for small fleets though, so for those you can make the mechanic relevant.

Even for small fleets, a 20% increase in detection radius for a 200% increase in profile (and firepower) isn't that much. I understand why the range had to be logarithmic for high profile fleets, but I think it's way too flat from the bottom and the 510 minimal range to high. I probably would have done it the other way around: small fleet have a lower detection distance, but going dark help less the frigates than big cruisers.

[Alex]

Well - how much impact can you really expect in a mixed fleet? If you set the profile on all Scy ships to 0, for example, they'll have no effect on the detected-at range, but they can't do *more* than that without a higher-level script modifying the range directly (based on, say, proportion of Scy ships in fleet).

It's not an int, btw, it can handle fractional values. Not sure if it's displayed correctly in that case, but iirc it should be.

I probably would have done it the other way around: small fleet have a lower detection distance, but going dark help less the frigates than big cruisers.

Consider that the low-end detection range is already a bit of a problem, and the less the high-end detection range gets off-screen, the better. That's the basic reason for the curve being what it is.

[Tartiflette]

Well - how much impact can you really expect in a mixed fleet?

I don't know, if the detection range was more linear and you could cut the profile of half the fleet in half, that's still a 25% difference compared to the current 5% or something. And that goes the other way too, I wanted the ships more detectable when moving around, but currently even doubling their profile don't change much the range either.

It's not an int, btw, it can handle fractional values. Not sure if it's displayed correctly in that case, but iirc it should be.

Yeah I found out. It's a bit weird when it display 0 for all ships but the total profile is 8 for example.

Consider that the low-end detection range is already a bit of a problem, and the less the high-end detection range gets off-screen, the better. That's the basic reason for the curve being what it is.

As I said, I expected the range of detection coming half from the abilities, and half from the ships profile. Currently it's more 80+% from the abilities and 10 from the ships profile. I mean a single frigate goes from 280 while going dark to 1800 or something while in emergency burn, and a decent cruiser fleet goes from  500 to 2500. The impact of having 16 times more sensor profile only double the detection distance compared to the abilities that multiply it by 5 to 8.
Also, is long-range detection off-screen such a bad thing? Compared to last minute detection only a few pixels away?

[Alex]

Erm. Tempest, going dark: 280. Tempest, emergency burn: 850. I think you maybe had the transponder on in addition to EB.

Also, is long-range detection off-screen such a bad thing? Compared to last minute detection only a few pixels away?

Probably, because it also messes with trying to evade patrols while coming in to a market with the transponder off, for example.

I don't know, if the detection range was more linear and you could cut the profile of half the fleet in half, that's still a 25% difference compared to the current 5% or something.

It really doesn't work well. I spent a looong time trying various formulas, various rates of change, etc. Not saying what's there now is perfect, but to me it felt like the best version out of everything I tried, which includes roughly what you're suggesting. It just doesn't work well, the differences are way, way too huge.

Ultimately, the sensor strength/profile are meant to be a base that abilities work off of, with abilities having a greater impact. I'd like campaign gameplay to be more about judicious ability use than about getting the right fleet composition to succeed at task X. The right composition should help, but not be the main factor. I mean, you're not going to sneak into port with 25 Atlases, but something more reasonable? It should depend on what you do.

There's some room within that for how much of a factor it is, but, again, I did try a number of various profile-to-range curves. Its one of those things where changes that sound small actually matter a lot more than you'd think. A 10% change in the base detection range turns out to be a pretty big deal.

I wanted the ships more detectable when moving around, but currently even doubling their profile don't change much the range either.

It sounds like what you want is a percentage modifier based on the number of Scy ships in the fleet, whether it comes from an ability, a script, or something else. Kind of like terrain bonus from being still in a ring; things that are meant to be drastic shouldn't generally work through profile/strength.

Unless you did something like set the profile to a veeery small fraction (or even 0) when not moving. That'd be drastic enough.

Yeah I found out. It's a bit weird when it display 0 for all ships but the total profile is 8 for example.

Ah, thanks - I need to fix that up, then.

[Tartiflette]

All good points, I think it's the kind of things that need to be experimented first hand to understand why it doesn't work... I'm still a tad frustrated that the ships don't influence more the detection range.
I mean, I totally get the idea behind using the ability at the right moment rather than the right fleet... But it's also an interesting thing to do: hunt the right ship that fit the fleet theme and try to get it. The abilities influence is so extreme right now that I could create a stealth fleet from Dooms as well as from Dominators, that's a bit of a contradiction. I just wish for a middle-ground there.

Now in the case of Scy, I will write a script that calculate the effective range change from the fleet composition as you suggested, no problem.

[Alex]

(Related side note: I'd been thinking about a stealth ability that having phase ships in your fleet unlocks...)

That said, 3 Dooms: less profile than a frigate. 3 Dominators: profile 9. That's almost half the range! Now, if you get to 25 Dooms vs 25 Dominators, the difference gets smaller, but it's still something like 50% more for Dominators, isn't it?

[Tartiflette]

I meant 5 Dooms going dark gives the fleet a 390 effective detection range against 780 in normal time, and 5 Dominators go from 1030 to 510. It isn't such a huge difference compared to the supposed use of the ships. Almost exactly 25% difference in both normal operation and stealth. I would have expected the Dooms to be better at sneaking around with their -75% sensor profile.

This is actually something very counter-intuitive and not explained anywhere in the game: -75% sensor profile for phase ships or +100% for civilians isn't that much of a big deal.

Which bring me back to my initial observation: I think a fleet specifically tailored for one purpose should be roughly as effective as a random fleet using its abilities at their best... But I'm rambling now.

If you want to keep your current system, which I understand perfectly, why not trying something with built-in hullmods unlocking/enhancing the abilities? For example if all your ships have the Low Intensity Phase Fields hull-mod, going dark only reduce your speed by 25%. If all your ships have the Low-Tech hull-mod, Emergency burn last a couple of seconds longer. All ships are High-Tech? you can scan farther or get back your engines sooner. All ships are Mid-Tech and you loose 25% less speed from the terrains. Having enough tankers could allow for a higher burn speed in hyper (that sneaky Sustained Burn ability maybe?). Some middle-ground between "Any ship can do the job" and "You don't have the right tool for this".

[Alex]

I meant 5 Dooms going dark gives the fleet a 390 effective detection range against 780 in normal time, and 5 Dominators go from 1030 to 510. It isn't such a huge difference compared to the supposed use of the ships. Almost exactly 25% difference in both normal operation and stealth. I would have expected the Dooms to be better at sneaking around with their -75% sensor profile.

That's a 30% difference, or a ~70% increase in the area from which the fleet can be detected. "Go Dark" doesn't change the relative ratios, it just makes the numerical differences smaller, so doesn't seem super relevant

Which bring me back to my initial observation: I think a fleet specifically tailored for one purpose should be roughly as effective as a random fleet using its abilities at their best... But I'm rambling now.

My thinking here is that fleet-tailoring should be a good deal less effective than ability use. That way skill use can always trump it, but it gets easier/more difficult depending on whether the fleet is tailored for the job. If they're roughly the same, then ability use  - which generally has temporary effects or comes with downsides - would at best be able to match a tailored fleet, not overcome it.

Other examples include EB giving +5 burn, which is intentionally greater than the difference between frigate and capital.

If you want to keep your current system, which I understand perfectly, why not trying something with built-in hullmods unlocking/enhancing the abilities? For example if all your ships have the Low Intensity Phase Fields hull-mod, going dark only reduce your speed by 25%. If all your ships have the Low-Tech hull-mod, Emergency burn last a couple of seconds longer. All ships are High-Tech? you can scan farther or get back your engines sooner. All ships are Mid-Tech and you loose 25% less speed from the terrains. Having enough tankers could allow for a higher burn speed in hyper (that sneaky Sustained Burn ability maybe?). Some middle-ground between "Any ship can do the job" and "You don't have the right tool for this".

Yeah, sounds neat! Kind of have to see where abilities/skills/hullmods/etc go, but this sort of thing is an option.