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Author Topic: AI kiting tactics  (Read 4848 times)

cerberusti

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AI kiting tactics
« on: November 22, 2015, 10:09:45 PM »

I just noticed the update, started a new game, and the first two battles I ended up in were over an hour long with no outcome (in a starting wolf.)  Maybe it just affects smaller ships, but the frigate vs frigate AI seems broken at the moment.

The AI frigates seem not to want to actually fight me, despite their initiating combat (even with a 3v1 advantage they just run away from me).  They hover outside both their weapon range and mine until CR runs down to nothing on both sides and it becomes totally impossible to get through shields (weapons break before it does enough damage to remove shields, eventually weapons disappear from the list.)

In the last one it was a single out of ammo enforcer which just ran around the edges of the screen for over an hour until we were both at zero CR and I gave up and quit (I managed to kill two ships by backing them into a corner, but did not have time to get a third before CR stopped weapons and engines from working well enough to pull that off). 

Later on it may be possible to just keep something fast around in reserve as a workaround for when this happens, but starting out a bugged out frigate which is faster than you means a reload.

If this is an intentional tactic on the part of the AI, perhaps the AI should be restricted to no more than say one minute of kiting before it must make a decision to cease that activity and engage or flee the battle (or require it to have at least one ship engaging the player at all times after a certain point in order to keep the battle moving.) 

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mitthrawnuruodo

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2015, 10:15:25 PM »

I have seen this happen a few times as well, but in all cases I was outnumbering the enemy 60-40 or more.
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Alex

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2015, 10:25:02 PM »

Sounds like you got super unlucky and *all* the ships you're facing ended up with "timid" officers. The odds of getting a timid officer at all are very low (1 in 36 for pirates), and the odds of getting multiple in the same fleet are even lower.

Added an item for the todo list to look at it. Maybe something like "if all the ships on the field are non-combat or timid and they haven't managed to deal damage in X seconds, order a full retreat".

"Cautious" officers are a bit more likely to happen, but they won't consistently refuse to engage - they're just more, well, cautious about it. A "Safety Overrides" build might be a way to get around the issue entirely, for the time being, if it keeps happening to you. I'd be surprised if it does, though, as it's very unlikely. Unless you're playing with a mod and something was adjusted there that makes this happen more often?
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Adraius

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2015, 11:08:40 PM »

Yeah, the AI has gotten... better? at kiting with this update.  I had one battle where my side - largely allies - were being kiting to hell and back and slowly picked apart by an agile frigate-and-destroyer Tri-Tach fleet, most prominently among them a beam-spam Medusa and a Tempest that we had nothing fast and hardy enough to "tackle" them with, and we couldn't corner them as I didn't have direct control of the fleet.  I had to reload that battle several times, but it was an epic fight, and I EVENTUALLY managed to find some solutions. (I think the last one died to low CR putting out an engine)

The AI can't get sucked into 'feints' anymore where you back off then pull a well-timed reverse, but something to help them recognize when they need to either make an attempt or bug out would be nice.  I think straight-up adding a "retreat when losing and at dangerous CR" trigger would be a good idea.
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Alex

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2015, 11:15:39 PM »

This doesn't sound like what was going on with the OP, though - what you're describing is kiting while engaging at maximum range. The OP's situation is not engaging at all, unless I'm mistaken, which means timid officers.
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Adraius

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2015, 11:18:11 PM »

Hm, on closer reading you're right - I've never had them outright refuse to engage me! (sorry, it's late)
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cerberusti

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2015, 05:55:25 AM »

All 3 ships had images on their targeting information (which I assume means they had an officer.)  The battle I described was started by the AI.  I picked disengage, but then decided to take the fleet on in the tactical map (it was actually a wolf and cerberus I took out early, and a brawler which was left, not an enforcer.)

Aside from some rockets there was no attempt at all to fire upon me by the AI until I forced it to close range by cornering (which took a while, they had a lot of opportunity to attack.)

The other battle I fought was an afflictor and a wolf.  I killed the afflictor quickly by making it stay phased until overload (it seemed totally normal, firing at me when possible), but the wolf refused to engage me.  I started that battle, and I do not think the wolf had an officer (not entirely sure on that one.)

I can think of several workarounds, as being the fastest ship on the screen would prevent that tactic entirely.  It seemed very off though, and I was not sure if it was a bug or a side effect of trying to make frigates more survivable in larger engagement.
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Alex

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2015, 11:06:23 AM »

Thanks for the extra details. Yeah, this really sounds like very bad luck in that 1vs3 battle, getting 3 timid officers - about 1 in 45,000 or so :) I'd bet the Wolf also had a "timid" officer on it; wouldn't make any sense otherwise. I'll see what I can do to fix this up.
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2015, 09:17:50 PM »

Maybe no timid officer for pirates. Why would they became one at the first place?
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Alex

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2015, 10:25:02 PM »

That's definitely the "ship it" solution :)
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mendonca

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2015, 12:28:37 AM »

Maybe no timid officer for pirates. Why would they became one at the first place?

Well, my Dad was a pirate ... and his Dad, and his Dad before him. I just want to play the violin.
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"I'm doing it, I'm making them purple! No one can stop me!"

cerberusti

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2015, 02:36:52 PM »

I have not had a problem since, so maybe it was just bad luck (I also put on safety overrides after docking, which is quite powerful.)

I wonder though... While I do not know how you implemented this, I noticed a screen about stabilizing and passing time when I started the game.  Is it possible that this process favors the survival of timid officers, making the first battles more likely to contain them than their creation ratios would make it appear?
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Alex

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Re: AI kiting tactics
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2015, 02:39:03 PM »

I wonder though... While I do not know how you implemented this, I noticed a screen about stabilizing and passing time when I started the game.  Is it possible that this process favors the survival of timid officers, making the first battles more likely to contain them than their creation ratios would make it appear?

That's some quality outside-the-box thinking right there! But no, it's not possible :) The battle autoresolver isn't aware of officer personality, just level - and the first couple of pirate fleets you encounter are very likely to have spawned recently, too.
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