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Author Topic: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units  (Read 4875 times)

goduranus

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Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« on: November 22, 2015, 08:46:57 PM »

Wow what they can have 50-60 units in one fleet. That pretty's unfair :-[

Alex

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2015, 08:57:49 PM »

Where'd you see that? They're not limited, this is true, but afaik the largest size patrols can grow to - and it takes some consistent attacking of a faction in the same system - should have considerably fewer units then that. Is it possible you're being ganged up on by multiple fleets?

(Beyond that, they *are* limited to 10 officers + the fleet commander, so past a certain point, extra ships don't mean very much at all.)
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2015, 08:58:55 PM »

You've seen fleets with 50-60 ships / wings in one fleet?  I haven't. :P
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2015, 11:58:22 PM »

Where'd you see that? They're not limited, this is true, but afaik the largest size patrols can grow to - and it takes some consistent attacking of a faction in the same system - should have considerably fewer units then that. Is it possible you're being ganged up on by multiple fleets?

(Beyond that, they *are* limited to 10 officers + the fleet commander, so past a certain point, extra ships don't mean very much at all.)
I'm looking at a fleet of 38, 23 of which are fighters. This is a 120K pirate target bounty
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goduranus

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2015, 02:56:43 AM »

Ah I may have miscounted, it was a large bounty fleet, only 40 units there.

miljan

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2015, 04:43:14 AM »

Why was a hard limit of 25 implemented? I suggest devs to think of reimplementing the fleet point system. It will fix a lot of problems with this, where one fighter wing is same as one capital ship, and it can even have a soft limit that when you go over it you start to lose CR as it was the case before. Easy to understand for players, and also good for balancing different ships out in the fleet.

Really dont like this change and dont understand why it was change in the first place.

But in the mean time, is it possible to disable the fleet limit at the moment and how? And would that brake the saves?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 04:50:27 AM by miljan »
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Megas

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2015, 07:38:06 AM »

The AI is a cheater!
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Alex

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2015, 09:59:46 AM »

Ah I may have miscounted, it was a large bounty fleet, only 40 units there.

Ah, ok. That's more within the bounds of possibility; would've been surprised to see 50+.

But in the mean time, is it possible to disable the fleet limit at the moment and how? And would that brake the saves?

Pretty sure you already got your reply in the modding thread, but, yeah - there's a value in settings.json - maxShipsInFleet.


Why was a hard limit of 25 implemented?

The logistics system was pretty much a textbook example of something way, way overcomplex for the job it was intended to do (and wasn't really doing). That's probably a longer discussion, though.

Anyway, the limit is there mostly for UI reasons. It's not intended to be something you bump into regularly; if you do and it bothers you, that setting is there.

There does seem to be a bit of an issue with the limit for fighter-based fleets, though. It's not the only issue with fighters right now (though they're still viable, afaik), so I'll be sure to look at it at *some point*.

The AI is a cheater!

I understand the sentiment about having an even playing field, and feel strongly about it myself, but also really, really, don't see this as running counter to that in any meaningful way. It's not functionally any different from the AI having two fleets following each other and always joining in each other's battles. Well, that's not true - two fleets doing that would actually be stronger because they'd have more officers.

... so, I suppose, the AI has the deck stacked against it if it has a >25 fleet. Fair point! :P
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Megas

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2015, 10:05:07 AM »

Quote
It's not functionally any different from the AI having two fleets following each other and always joining in each other's battles.
I do not mind AI combining separate forces into one giant deathball.  I had that happen once with two big bounty fleets next to each other, and I was fine with that.

I do not like AI having a single fleet with 40 or so ships if I cannot (without cheating myself).  That is blatant cheating.
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Alex

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2015, 10:18:13 AM »

Well, alright. I can't tell you to like it, only explain why I don't mind it myself :)

("Cheating" is usually something used to gain an advantage, though. In this case, it's not getting much of one. Heck, you might even consider this a different visual representation for multiple fleets temporarily joined together. Ahem.)
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goduranus

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2015, 11:16:00 AM »

But you always advocated an even playing field. If player could somehow get another friendly fleet to follow the main fleet to even the odds then it'd be pretty cool.

Alex

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2015, 11:20:53 AM »

But you always advocated an even playing field.

An AI fleet having more than 25 ships while keeping to 10 officers is literally just more stuff for you to blow up and more salvage for you to get. Thinking about this, I'm seriously starting to consider pruning the fleet size down to improve the AI's chances by increasing the officer concentration.

If player could somehow get another friendly fleet to follow the main fleet to even the odds then it'd be pretty cool.

That it might be. Been some talk about this internally; we'll see where it goes.
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Serenitis

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2015, 11:25:32 AM »

The logistics system was pretty much a textbook example of something way, way overcomplex for the job it was intended to do (and wasn't really doing). That's probably a longer discussion, though.
In all honesty I thought the logistics thing was a really tidy way of managing your fleet within whatever limits your skills give you.
The only thing that made it complicated was having crew/marines count towards it as well. But they're gone now.
If its just a pool of points and ships with various point values, it is actually a fairly straightforward system with a ton of built in flexibility and it gives you something (else) to build a skillset around if that takes your fancy.

tl;dr - Put logistics back in, but leave crew out of it.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2015, 12:07:48 PM »

But you always advocated an even playing field.
An AI fleet having more than 25 ships while keeping to 10 officers is literally just more stuff for you to blow up and more salvage for you to get. Thinking about this, I'm seriously starting to consider pruning the fleet size down to improve the AI's chances by increasing the officer concentration.
If player could somehow get another friendly fleet to follow the main fleet to even the odds then it'd be pretty cool.
That it might be. Been some talk about this internally; we'll see where it goes.
I think part of the issue is SOOO DAMN MANY fleets have SOOO DAMN MANY fighters that it damn near blots out the sun. I can understand fighter heavy fleets when there are several flight decks in the fleet but when it is like the pic I posted, it is just too much...
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Alex

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Re: Don't like how enemy fleets are not limited to 25 units
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2015, 12:31:04 PM »

Yeah, fighters... hmm. That's looking like too many for the carriers deployed, too. That's actually a crazy ratio. I need to take a look, might be a bug (or just an unintentional combination of things) if this ratio is common.
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