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[Clockwork Owl]

Origial post from shuul:

I posted this in Discussion of new version at first, but I believe it should be here:

smtng

Yeah, looking at this for the .1 release. Need more carrot to go with the stick, and probably a bit less stick in the first place.

Hey Alex, I was thinking hard on this one as this system looks very not flexible atm.
And maybe I found a good balanced solution - factions have to use "difference"(not exactly) between player reputations for each of faction.
I will use example to show how "difference" is calculated:
Let’s say Player has reputation with Hegemony +10 and with Tri-Tachyon +10, "difference" will be +20.
if Player will have reputation with Hegemony +10 and with Tri-Tachyon -10, "difference" will be 0.
if Player will have reputation with Hegemony +10 and with Tri-Tachyon -20, "difference" will be -10 (negative result means that one faction doesn't care about your reputation with another faction).
if Player will have reputation with Hegemony +60 and with Tri-Tachyon +80, "difference" will be +140.

So, lets say we need a difference of +25 (trigger amount) for a faction to start investigation that will last 2-3 months, player knows that investigation is under way and has the possibility to fix his standings with one of the factions.
When investigation will be completed it will count players reputation and current "difference" to give results. Also, it is critical to not have results of investigations be auto-inhospitable or auto-hostile, it just doesnt makes sense; you will not be blamed as traitor of your country if you will say something like "oh, this guys are not THAT bad".

Ok, now the complex example that will show all the calculations:
Player standings with Hegemony is +25 and with Tri-tachyon is +5, so the "difference" is 30. This triggers investigation for both of the factions. (+ random time period)
After 2-3 months of investigation Player did not changed his reputation and investigation results are counted:
For Hegemony, as Players reputation with them is greater, it will have more impact:

1. At first we will have to count if investigation gives any kind of results at all, that is based solely on "difference" and player current reputation and will gives player a chance, if he is lucky enough, to have not-so-bad standings with all factions if difference in reputation is small enough or if it will be severely decreased till the end of investigation.
Formula is:    (difference * 2) + (random number from 0.1 to 1 * current reputation) – 5

Example for Hegemony: (30*2) + (0.7 * 25) - 5 = 72.5%
So, this gives 27.5% that investigation will not give any results.

Let’s calculate same thing for Tri-tachyon (let’s take the same random number in formula):
Example with Tri-tachyon: (30*2) + (0.7 * 5) - 5 = 58.5%
As you can see this gives 41.5% that investigation will not give any results. Tri-tachyon just not that interested in you.

You will notice that with high enough reputation and difference there is no chance that investigation will be a failure. Also, if player will drop his reputation with one of the factions this changes % drasticly.
Also note that even with slightly negative reputation with one faction but with very positive for another this faction will want you to become enemy with his enemies. And they will investigate your every even slight connection to every enemy of their own.
Small example: Hegemony rep =+40. Tri-tachyon rep =0 gives next calculations (I will also use same random number for both of calculations):
for Hegemony: (40*2) + (0.5*40)-5 = 95%  
for Tri-tachyon: (40*2) + (0.5*0)-5 =75%

2. Now, lets assume that both investigation are successful, we will calculate the impact on your reputation:
Formula is next: (“difference” + current reputation)  / 4 + (random number from 0.2 to 0.5 * current reputation)

Hegemony  rep =+25. Tri rep =5 gives next calculations:
for Hegemony   (30 + 25) / 4 + (0.5 * 25)  = 26.25
for Tri-tachyon  (30 + 5) / 4 + (0.5 * 5) = 11.25

Hegemony  rep =+40. Tri rep =0 gives next calculations:
for Hegemony   (40 + 40) / 4 + (0.5 * 40)  = 40
for Tri-tachyon  (40 + 0) / 4 + (0.5 * 0)  = 10

I believe with some alterations and formula balancing this will bring a nice results.
Sorry for my English, I hope you understand what I meant.


Answer Sy:

Hey Alex, I was thinking hard on this one as this system looks very not flexible atm.
And maybe I found a good balanced solution

i think a system that scales the chance of being convicted and/or the punishment based on (prior) reputation would be nice. it probably shouldn't be very complex though, at least not the parts of it that the player needs to understand in order to make the right decisions.

and if i understand you right, the investigation triggers for both factions once the reputation difference reaches a certain point? but the system is meant to keep you in good standing with one of the factions.
also, what if you keep your reputation high with both factions in question? +60 with TT and +80 with Hegemony wouldn't be a difference of 25, but it's the kind of high standing with several factions that the system is trying to prevent.

appologies if i misunderstood your post.

Answer Aron0621:

The 'difference' value he is using is actually <faction reputation> + <other faction reputation> In your example it's 140 for both factions.

Sorry for the messy formatting.
-G

[shuul]

The 'difference' value he is using is actually the difference between <faction reputation> and <other faction reputation>*-1. In your example it's 140 for both factions.

Exactly, ill add this to original post.
Also, maybe it will be better to move this to Suggestions?

[Clockwork Owl]

I updated my formula. Turns out it is just sum of two values. (A-(-B)) = A+B)

And yes, make a suggestion thread if you intend on discussing on this further.

[shuul]

I posted this in Discussion of new version at first, but I believe it should be here:

smtng

Yeah, looking at this for the .1 release. Need more carrot to go with the stick, and probably a bit less stick in the first place.

Hey Alex, I was thinking hard on this one as this system looks very not flexible atm.
And maybe I found a good balanced solution - factions have to use "difference"(not exactly) between player reputations for each of faction.
I will use example to show how "difference" is calculated:
Let’s say Player has reputation with Hegemony +10 and with Tri-Tachyon +10, "difference" will be +20.
if Player will have reputation with Hegemony +10 and with Tri-Tachyon -10, "difference" will be 0.
if Player will have reputation with Hegemony +10 and with Tri-Tachyon -20, "difference" will be -10 (negative result means that one faction doesn't care about your reputation with another faction).
if Player will have reputation with Hegemony +60 and with Tri-Tachyon +80, "difference" will be +140.

So, lets say we need a difference of +25 (trigger amount) for a faction to start investigation that will last 2-3 months, player knows that investigation is under way and has the possibility to fix his standings with one of the factions.
When investigation will be completed it will count players reputation and current "difference" to give results. Also, it is critical to not have results of investigations be auto-inhospitable or auto-hostile, it just doesnt makes sense; you will not be blamed as traitor of your country if you will say something like "oh, this guys are not THAT bad".

Ok, now the complex example that will show all the calculations:
Player standings with Hegemony is +25 and with Tri-tachyon is +5, so the "difference" is 30. This triggers investigation for both of the factions. (+ random time period)
After 2-3 months of investigation Player did not changed his reputation and investigation results are counted:
For Hegemony, as Players reputation with them is greater, it will have more impact:

1. At first we will have to count if investigation gives any kind of results at all, that is based solely on "difference" and player current reputation and will gives player a chance, if he is lucky enough, to have not-so-bad standings with all factions if difference in reputation is small enough or if it will be severely decreased till the end of investigation.
Formula is:    (difference * 2) + (random number from 0.1 to 1 * current reputation) – 5

Example for Hegemony: (30*2) + (0.7 * 25) - 5 = 72.5%
So, this gives 27.5% that investigation will not give any results.

Let’s calculate same thing for Tri-tachyon (let’s take the same random number in formula):
Example with Tri-tachyon: (30*2) + (0.7 * 5) - 5 = 58.5%
As you can see this gives 41.5% that investigation will not give any results. Tri-tachyon just not that interested in you.

You will notice that with high enough reputation and difference there is no chance that investigation will be a failure. Also, if player will drop his reputation with one of the factions this changes % drasticly.
Also note that even with slightly negative reputation with one faction but with very positive for another this faction will want you to become enemy with his enemies. And they will investigate your every even slight connection to every enemy of their own.
Small example: Hegemony rep =+40. Tri-tachyon rep =0 gives next calculations (I will also use same random number for both of calculations):
for Hegemony: (40*2) + (0.5*40)-5 = 95%  
for Tri-tachyon: (40*2) + (0.5*0)-5 =75%

2. Now, lets assume that both investigation are successful, we will calculate the impact on your reputation:
Formula is next: (“difference” + current reputation)  / 4 + (random number from 0.2 to 0.5 * current reputation)

Hegemony  rep =+25. Tri rep =5 gives next calculations:
for Hegemony   (30 + 25) / 4 + (0.5 * 25)  = 26.25
for Tri-tachyon  (30 + 5) / 4 + (0.5 * 5) = 11.25

Hegemony  rep =+40. Tri rep =0 gives next calculations:
for Hegemony   (40 + 40) / 4 + (0.5 * 40)  = 40
for Tri-tachyon  (40 + 0) / 4 + (0.5 * 0)  = 10

I believe with some alterations and formula balancing this will bring a nice results.
Sorry for my English, I hope you understand what I meant.

[shuul]

I updated my formula. Turns out it is just sum of two values. (A-(-B)) = A+B)

And yes, make a suggestion thread if you intend on discussing on this further.

Yeah you are right, I just updated text to explain it a bit more.
We can continue here.

[Sy]

The 'difference' value he is using is actually the difference between <faction reputation> and <other faction reputation>*-1. In your example it's 140 for both factions

Exactly, ill add this to original post.

oooh, right. that makes a lot more sense. sorry ^^

[shuul]

The 'difference' value he is using is actually the difference between <faction reputation> and <other faction reputation>*-1. In your example it's 140 for both factions

Exactly, ill add this to original post.

oooh, right. that makes a lot more sense. sorry ^^

yeah, and it makes it 100% to investigation probability with severe impacts on both sides.
But with this system you should never get such a reputation, or, if you manage somehow, you will be counted as traitor for both factions

[Cyan Leader]

I'd like to suggest changes to the system outside of the investigation formula. Alex I understand your intention to bring us some sort faction conflict for lategame, but the player is so dependent on markets currently due to the difficulty of acquiring hulls and how trading is based on opportunities that having the majority of the universe hate you is a huge deal and limits your options a ton. The changes to the boarding systems are good (though a bit broken at the moment) but I'd say it is still not a good alternative. It could take more than 50 battles with big fleets of the Hegemony for you to be offered a chance to capture one of their capitals, for example, and that is just not feasible. If your faction is lacking good ships on their markets, which happens often, you're screwed.

What I want to say by all that is that being locked away from markets is a huge deal and until industry kicks in and we have a way to manufacture our own stuff or acquire them through some other way (mission rewards for example?) this system is too punishing in its current state. Therefore, I'd like to propose some changes:

Investigation should only trigger if the factions are hostile to each other

I read Alex's post in the other thread that all factions have this cold war status between each other, which is fine for the lore and it should reflect on the gameplay in some way, but how it is now is too heavy handed. If we must have that then investigations should only trigger between neutral factions when the difference is big enough, as in you are cooperative with both.

Bribing should have a bigger effect or given more options / Investigation frequency is too high

The current system for bribing is great. I was surprised after doing all the steps and I think it's a cool mechanic that goes hand in hand with the sensor changes. The problem though is that if my first suggestion isn't implemented and every faction starts gunning for the player as soon as he does some bounties, he will have a great chore-list to go through every time those frequent investigations are launched and that, honestly, can be frustrating. You already have to dedicate a huge amount of time flying around a system to collect bounties once the smaller pirate fleets start fleeing from you, you already have to dedicate a lot of time for trading, updating markets and taking advantage of events and missions. A lot of those are dependent on opportunities that only last for a small time window, time you will have to sacrifice to go to each system and bribe each officer if you don't want to lose access to vital markets. Hell, I don't even want to imagine this system when mod factions start coming back online and you go from 4-5 factions to 12-18.

Now, it was already said that the time for bribing will be expanded, but something should be done on how frequently they are launched. I should clarify that I honestly don't know the inner workings of the system and I'm talking from experience only which had a bunch of investigations, so I may be off when I say some of this info.

Anyway if investigations are going to be launched on differences then they should be tiered. One investigation for, say, 25 points, another for 50, another for 75, and so on. Each would take more to bribe but the point is that once you do bribe that tier, it doesn't repeat. That includes the last one, which could be a monthly payment for the officer of that faction.

[Serenitis]

Personally, I think a faction should only "investigate" you if gain a lot of positive rep. with a faction they don't like.

eg.

You do lots of stuff for the Hegemony and make lots of stern looking friends with nice hats.

Current Hegemony realtions as described in the intel section:
Indpendant: Neutral
Tri-Tachyon: Hostile (-50)
Diktat: Neutral
Luddic Church: Neutral
Luddic Path: Hostile (-50)
Pirates: Hostile (-50)

So given that the Pirates and the Path are default hostile to everyone (at least without significant work), only Tri-Tachyon should care about our growing attachment to fascist dress codes and the colour orange.
Everyone else is indifferent.

In my current game I'm a Hegemony box carrier, and the Sindrians shoot me on sight, while an AI Hegemony fleet can sail right up to Sindria and trade without a care in the world.
Why can't I do that? I've never fired a shot at a Diktat ship, and I've never done anything dodgy in thier markets (in the tiny window I had the opportunity).

Yes, the game is about conflict. I get that.
But forcing it for essentially nonsense reasons is quite silly. Notwithstanding that even if faction investigations never happened at all a player still has the choice to start trouble on thier own.
For a solo game, I feel that railroading the player like this is a bad decision.

tl;dr - Factions should only care about if you're friends with thier enemies, and if you do anything "bad" to them.

[Clockwork Owl]

Hey, why does it look like I've written it?! It's shuul's.

[shuul]

Hey, why does it look like I've written it?! It's shuul's.

When moderator moved our discussion here from Announcement system automatically moved your answer on top (due to time it was posted) and it was the only solution for moderator to keep my original post in top so the thread makes sense.