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[HELMUT]

I started to talk about this suggestion in the patch note thread, but i'll develop it here.

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9278.930

Currently, there is a hard limit of 25 ships per fleet, regardless of the class, be it fighter or capital ship. I think this system is unbalanced during mid/late game scenarios by favouring bigger ships.

The solution i propose is to remove the 25 ship limit, and instead going back to a simplified version of 0.65's "logistics capability".

In this new system, the logistic bar will be filled by the ships Deployment Points :



I tested in 0.65. Without any levels, i could fill the 20 logistic points with 9 Wolves and their crew. Which is worth 45 DP.

With 10 skill points in Fleet logistics, i can field 46 Wolves (230 DP) and their crew, for 100 logistic points. (didn't skilled "making do" that reduce the required crew by 50%)

With this information, we can determine that the new max logistic rating will be set at around 45 DP without levels, and around 230 at max level. The supply upkeep for ships and crew is still there, but not included in the logistic rating.

Another thing in 0.65 was the possibility to go over the logistic rating, at the cost of lowered max CR for the fleet. I loved this detail, you could either choose to go for a smaller fleet of stronger ships, or either drowning the enemy with low CR ships. Personally, i'd like to see this system coming back if possible.

I think this suggestion would allow for a greater variety of fleet builds during the campaign. Currently, we are stopped by the 25 ships limit and had to adapt by ditching smaller crafts for bigger, more efficient ones.

Thoughts?

[Alex]

Question: is the limit coming into play a theoretical concern, or do you actually have a save where you wish you could add more frigates, feel that more frigates would contribute more to your fleet than a larger ship, but can't due to the limit?

[Ranakastrasz]

Notably the config file has a setting for 25 ships, which is easily changed, say, to 200 or whatever, if you don't want to play with the limit.

[Tartiflette]

Personally I hit the limit with a frigate/fighter fleet before switching them to cruisers to raise my fleet strength.

[HELMUT]

Question: is the limit coming into play a theoretical concern, or do you actually have a save where you wish you could add more frigates, feel that more frigates would contribute more to your fleet than a larger ship, but can't due to the limit?

I reached the limit fairly quickly in my current campaign. And yes, sometimes i would have liked to purchase a Shepherd or a Broadsword to complete my fleet, as 0.7 SS tends to have quite a few more fighters and frigates to fight than before.

Now, would those be worth ditching one of my destroyers? Probably not. When you have limited number, bigger is better.

Personally, i'm not that much of a player that want to optimize my fleet at all cost, i'm rather more about trying interesting, if fantasist new strategies. I remember in 0.65, i decided to go for a Buffalo MK.II only campaign, and unleashed a stamped of innumerable, barely functional Buffaloes into the meat-grinder. Or the time i went for 5 Condors and enough Talons to blot out the sun. Was that more effective than a smaller, more reasonable fleet? No, not at all. But i could still do it, and more importantly, it was fun.

With that 25 ship limit, i can't do that anymore, i can't experiment those weird ideas. Not only the limit feel too restrictive, it's like it forces me into an "optimization" mindset rather than a fun one.

As Ranakastrasz said, i could remove that limit in the files. However i'm not sure what would be the consequences on the balance. I also like to give feedback on mods, but i'm not sure it would be a good thing if i'm playing with my own, modified Starsector version.

0.7 is still young though, and it's possible that not everyone reached that late-game limit i just experimented. With a bit of time, maybe some more players will give feedback on that matter.

[facc00]

I personally do not like a cap of 25 ships.  I am using a balanced number of ships to help support other ships.  I would like to see a skill that can increase it versus simply changing the game configs.  Until then I will be putting it to say 200 why not   I cant catch the little 1 ship pirate fleets anyways

[Megas]

25 combat ships may be okay.  However, I need six of those slots for Atlases and tugs, and about ten more empty at the start of each raid for new ships I get from boarding or shopping.  In practice, my combat fleet maxes at 15 ships (but I usually stop at 11 due to officers).  The rest are freighters/tugs or new acquisitions that are in no condition to fight.  Meanwhile, a single endgame enemy fleet has 40 combat ships, and when I try to fight multiple fleets in one battle (to minimize deployment costs), I can fight death fleets with more than 100 ships.  No way 11 combat ships of mine can kill the fleet, unless I solo or chain-flagship.

As long as a single enemy fleet can have more than 40 ships, we should be able to have up to 40 to 50 ships, just like the AI.  If the AI wants a numbers advantage, pile more fleets together for the 100+ ship death fleet extended battle.

[Harmful Mechanic]

I don't feel too constrained by the 25-ship limit, but for me the most satisfying fleet builds rarely go over 12-15 slots. That feels powerful enough to plow through all but the biggest bounty fleets, but preserves some sense of challenge once I get up to max skills.

What I *would* like are ship limits by hull class, and an exemption for fighters, along with the ability to save and load fleet configurations. That would take off some of the pressure to fill out your 25-ship limit.

[Schwartz]

Yeah, the limit does come up. It mostly imposes the one 'correct way' of building fleets which is having a slew of large ships to pull the weight. For frigate and fighter fleets this is a very real concern. Fighters shouldn't count into it, anyway.

I'm used to playing SS+ which has a much higher limit. You tend to brush up against the more natural barrier of supply and fuel use, which still keeps fleet sizes reasonable. Just not a fan of the hard limit. Deploy / supply points can do the same thing more elegantly IMO.

[TaLaR]

25 ship hard limit is a problem, but even deploying more than 11 ship soft limit (officers count + player) in single engagement is already dubious. Skill-less ships are just fodder in that situation.
Being unable to reassign officers between combat rounds also limits usefulness of spare combat ships.

[Deshara]

Being unable to reassign officers between combat rounds also limits usefulness of spare combat ships.

This tho

[Weltall]

Being unable to reassign officers between combat rounds also limits usefulness of spare combat ships.

This tho

It would be nice if this could happen, with a small drawback comparable to what happens when you change main ship in battle and maybe with a little worse effect or maybe dependent on skills and level of officer.

PS: I am sure this has been suggested. I am just saying XD

[Megas]

Skill-less ships are just fodder in that situation.

This is when having superior numbers can mitigate this, except the player can never have a numbers advantage in the fights that matter (i.e., battles with 40 or more enemy ships).  Aside from that, I agree.  I do not start raids with more than 11 fighting ships precisely for this reason.  The only time I get more than 11 combat ships is if I buy or board more ships during my raids, and enough time passes for them to be repaired.